Knusperkeks

I never played any FE besides Awakening (I wouldn't really count the 7th one, which I recently picked up, at which I am currently sitting at chapter 2) Personally, there are a few things I do not like about awakening. One of them is the fact that the game has many useful, cool looking and practical weapons, most of which one is unable to use because it's literally impossible to reliably get your hands on them without using spotpass. Weapons like the Levin Sword, Shockstick and Bolt Axe have what seems to be arbitrary rank requirements. Levin/stick have C rank, why is the Bolt axe on B? By the time I have a unit with high magic and B rank axes, it doesn't matter anymore which weapon I use. Hand axes come at C and are much cheaper and more readily available. Their rarity makes them too awesome to use, which will lead to nobody using them. I wish there were D rank, or even E rank equivalents of these magic based weapons (BESIDES TOMES). Give them the same might as their physical counterparts, and suddenly you can increase resistance bases/growths on every single character which is lacking it. Same with defense. Why does the Shockstick have only a range of 1? I'm almost certain this is an oversight in game design. I never understood the reason why the males were specialized in defense, while female characters are good in resistance. [spoiler=tanget on weapon ranks]Once I made calculations for the weapon rank bonuses, thinking that the Brave Sword was statistically superior to any other weapon, for no apparent reason. I came to the conclusion that the weapon rank bonuses are very well balanced, so clearly somebody put a lot of effort into it. Specific shops sell only a couple of items. Not good game design in my opinion, especially since the Risen skirmishes spawn randomly and can screw you over big time. Mostly a concern of higher difficulty levels. Shops which unlock new items should share their assortment with other merchants (the old man shopkeeper, not Anna). That's what happens in real life as well. About game mechanics: Increasing returns on defensive stats is absolutely horrible game design, so much that even Luna+ is only a band-aid against it. I say that as person who played wow for half a decade, most of it as a tank. Luna should be skill*2%, chance to ignore 25% of def/res, Sol should be skill*2% to heal for 25%, Aether should be skill% with these changes in mind. The whole formula of damage taken needs to be re-configured. Make spellcasters have 10-30% damage reduction, fight profficient classes 30-50% and tank classes 50-70% damage reduction, give tanks a skill they can use to raise defensive capabilities. Call it "self-rally-res/def" or w/e, I don't care. Right now there is no reason to play anything but Dark Mages/Sorcerers (on anything that's not Lunatic+) because they are absolutely broken, with high HP and defense growth and vengeance on top of it. Delete Nosferatu.

Went with Assassin to see how viable dodge tanking is with capped speed (52), she is at 49 right now. Also curious about Aether+Sol at ~50 skill. Theoretically, the chance of attacking without a skill triggering is 37.5%, which isn't so bad. She has Bow Breaker against the super precise bows in endgame, everything else I have to cross my fingers for. [spoiler=This is her post chapter 20]

Well he doesn't even care about counter anymore, it's a bit disturbing.

So you want me to make her a sniper instead?

Unless something comes up, I'll probably end up making Lucina an Assassin. Her current stats (were she to be reclassed at lv 18, right now) would be: 77 hp, 40 Str, 14 mag, 44 Skl, 49 Spd, 48 Lck, 30 Def, 22 Res. I would give her Sol (the sword) and go to town. (unbreakable thanks to armsthrift) The low defense already got mentioned, but I hope Sol can make that work out somehow, and I'd like to keep both, bows as well as Swords. Of course I could re-class her into a lv 1 Bow Knight, but that's a bit boring in my opinion. What do you think?

I've got nothing to add. I knew you might be busy, so I waited 24 hours, at which point I assumed the post was missed because it was burried. Thanks for the response! o/

That feeling when somebody ignores your post but answers to others. :(

My run is updated to chapter 20.

Very well. Let's factorise everything I said unnecessarily and round it down to: "Donnel has slightly better stats as 10/1 Fighter compared to Vaike, and 10/1 Mercenary to Chrom." This is a nice little statement I can wholeheartedly agree with. I should have noticed the ignore in the statement, it was the most important word, sorry. I mention the second seal for the third time now, therefor that second part of the sentence should be rewritten to "You went this angle, I think you're a bit more successful." (whatever that means. Probably in conveying my message? I dunno exactly) I did underline and bold the parts where "fighter donnel", "fighter vaike" and "lord chrom", "mercenary donnel" are mentioned. I thought that was enough hint towards the second seal, I honestly did. I think it's ridiculous how you claim that Donnel has the same ability to chip as Vaike, while Chrom can't do it. Donnel as 10/1 Mercenary has 2.35 average strength more than Chrom and uses a Bronze Axe, while Chrom has Falchion, which is really good in chapter 5, which happens almost immediately after Donnel's recruitment. Chapter 5 features Wyvern Riders with Axes, the perfect victims for a 10/1 Chrom. I'm doing my best, happy it makes more sense now, really I am happy about that. :) I can understand where you're coming from, but unless you can exactly pinpoint how the algorithm determining character growths isn't working as intended (which is impossible without knowing information which should only be available to the game's developers), I'm forced to dismiss this statement as nonrepresentational, but you accept that yourself already so I won't ride on it any longer. No matter how much you believe rng screws you, there is always some person who gets lucky against impossible odds. There was a certain lunatic run where many units got deployed and many of them had good growths without exception, in which ownagepuffs commented something along the lines of "most rng blessed run ever?". I can't remember where, and can't find it after looking for it a tiny bit, but it happens. You were praising Donnel for his reliability while other's got shafted. It forced me to the conclusion to which I came. Thats how it works. I can asure you that Donnel will have times when he is incredibly unlucky (from a statistical standpoint), same as everyone else. Even if said coin is weighted to heads 99.99% of the time, some unlucky sob will eventually end up getting five tails back to back. When I put out all the statements of "X and Donnel get a, b or c growths" this also means that there is no "Donnel got screwed a little but X got screwed more because s/he is farther away from 100% growth." We must assume the character growths are as they are, the same way as scientists have to assume that trees do not in fact talk while nobody is listening and stop talking once somebody could potentially hear them. This can get really absurd, so let's stop here.

This is the mature thing to do, I'll oblige. I'll try my best. Here is what you wrote: This was my response: You mention 10/1 Donnel as Fighter or Mercenary being slightly better than Vaike or Chrom. This made me think of what 10/1 Vaike/Chrom have that Donnel doesn't have, so I mentioned the lv 10 skills of Lord and Fighter, which are Charm and Zeal. I mention the hidden stats that higher weapon ranks have, since you get the chance to use better weapons, as well as weapon triangle advantages being magnified. And of course, he needs a precious second seal just to get to a level that's slightly above other characters' who don't need a second seal, with the same amount of experience. Well Vaike starts at lv 3, so it's less for him. As for the Lucina part: I'm assuming the EXP that Donnel needs to get to lv 10 would have been distributed to Vaike or Chrom instead, which results in higher base stats for Lucina to inherit. Does this make sense to you now? I already mentioned that I assume equal rights for everyone. That means Donnel gets to keep his great growth rates and the others don't get screwed by RNG. If you assume other's get RNG screwed, I will assume that Donnel gets RNG screwed as well. His growths are high, but only HP and Luck are guarenteed to increase, everything else has a chance to not increase. You can't just assume Donnel grows at a standard rate, while everyone else just magically gets screwed over by RNG, making Donnel look better than them in comparison and use that as an argument to claim "Donnel is a more reliable unit." Anecdotal evidence isn't something you can use here. Donnel is just as susceptible to be screwed over by RNG as everybody else. There is no "Vaike gets bad growths and Donnel gets decent/good growths." There is only "Vaike/Donnel get good growths." or "Vaike/Donnel get decent growths." or "Vaike/Donnel get bad growths."

Already explained in post #473. I am not trying to get somebody who gets emotional over a game character to agree with me. My intention is to stop them from contaminating innocent people's opinion. Then again, it's their own fault for listening/agreeing to somebody's claim without sufficient proof, but even if somebody is ignorant, they deserve to learn the truth. Make no mistake, I'm willing to change my opinion if you provide decisive evidence that Donnel is in fact not a bad unit - not in a vacuum, but in comparison to other characters in the game. Correct. Thats why I ask everyone who posts on any difficulty other than Luna+ to mention that, so I can see it. it's in the same post you quoted. My spreadsheet also doesn't show the need for a Second Seal to get Donnel out of the sh*thole that is villager, as mentioned in post #451. It also doesn't account for literally wasted weapon experience, as seen in post #447. It doesn't account for Chrom's Charm, or Vaike's Zeal. It doesn't account for Lucina's base stats much farther down the line. Supports can be built on characters besides Donnel. While Donnel spends time building supports with <female unit>, Chrom is spending time to build supports with his future wife. It goes both ways. I already asked people to notify others of the difficulty they're playing on, mentioned earlier in this post, as well as few pages ago. I ask everyone who posts on any difficulty other than Luna+ to mention that, so I can see it. That same plea is written in the very same post you quoted yourself. Some characters have different stats depending on which difficulty they join the shepherds, I think Cherche is one of them, as well as Henry. There are probably more. Fact is, most characters have the same base stats, regardless of game difficulty. I was saying that I don't care about arguing for other modes, but now I'm confident that the argument to not apply favoritism but favor equality instead will result in the same conclusion that I (and many others) reached for higher difficulty levels. Thanks to your posts, I now realize that Donny sucks on all difficulty levels.

Use the strategy in this thread: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=52170

I don't judge without reason. If *you have no scientific proof for claims which can only be proven by science, get out. "But Donny is so awesome once you invest in him." Is not a valid argument. And thats what most people's opinion arguing for Donnel's greatness comes down to. *unspecified person -I have been asking why they think he is so great. I have shot down every single claim so far, with pure logic. I did mention that all I care about is Luna+. When the average character is bad, Donnel is terribad (lunatic or higher) When the average chatracter is decent, donnel is bad (normal, hard). I already mentioned that. You have to compare characters on even ground. We're assuming characters have in fact average growths, thats the only way to compare them. Otherwise it would be possible for one character to be worse/better than itself because it got worse/better growths while all other criteria are equal. Feel free to bench a unit if it's not having good enough growths, but thats something specific to your own playthrough. You're welcome~!

My motive is not to stand above others. I'm only of average skill. My motive is to safe the people who are below average skill, who try to become better at the game, from absorbing this untrue information about Donnel, so I argue against it. I couldn't care less whether people claim they're better than me or not, I don't mind. All I care about is people getting away with wrong claims. I will correct Chroms growths as well as add mercenary for Donnel as you wish. Edit: It's the same mistake I made with Donnel's growths. Irysa pointed it out in post #452. She didn't notice Chrom's growths being wrong though, same as me. Edit2: Vaike was erroneous as well. fixed.

You can't blame him though, he is in distraught after coming to realize that the one true god he had been worshipping this whole time is in fact a phony. Now he ventures forth to find the truth on his own. You have to admire the fortitude which drives him to continue this madness. They see the amazing level ups Donnel has and think he's a beast. They never play higher difficulties because they're too bad for that. That's why you see those kinds of comments. If they had the farsight and ability to clear higher difficulties, they would see how Donnel isn't such a great unit and ommit posting their opinions, since they also came to realize that they're part of the general consensus now. I will repost this since you or somebody else might have missed it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dou7N7U7KnOyZr6YBWKmjjt89hM1cZZY22v1kjNWmaY/edit#gid=0

The internal level cap for normal is 20, hard has 30 and lunatic has 50. So I have to calculate eight different scenarios? I already told you in a roundabout way that it's a pain in the a** lol. (and I know what you mean, this is the way I choose to play along) People apparently don't realize that lunatic exp penalty is active for all units. Conversely, the normal and hard mode experience rules are active for everyone as well. The implications of "normal mode donnel is better than lunatic Donnel" is countered by the fact that "normal mode random shepherd is better than normal mode Donnel." The Fir Coat on gfaqs who is making a playlog of his L+ run with Donnel as his focus after I destroyed him in an argument (calling it a debate would be an insult to all debates ever held) not unlike the one we have in this very thread. Reading that playlog might make you feel somehing akin to amusement or entertainment, if you lower yourself to the niveau of that board. Edit: spelling

This is pure conjecture on my part without any proof: I'd assume that a unit with internal of lv 1 needs "X" raw experience (without taking into account your own/enemy levels) to get to lv 10. The same unit with a total level of ((4 cumulative level from reclassing at lv 10)+1(displayed level))=5, would get to around lv 7 or 8 after their reclass. I'd assume a unit at lv 10 getting "X" experience would reach lv 15 or 16. Again, zero proof. Feel free to calculate it yourself if you want. I'm interested, but not interested enough to put effort into it, surely you can empathize with that notion, eclipse.

I have as much problems with people who believe Donnel is not the worst as I have with people who believe in god, none. The issue here is that they claim something without proof, and expect others to believe it. I went out of my way to show them how foolish that kind of perspective is by appealing to their emotions taking the same approach to the subject as they do. After that happened they finally brought up pertinent arguments. From there on, the discussion evolved into something more than an utter waste of time became worthwhile to pursue in a scientific sense. I won't calculate average experience gains, because that formula involves the units as well as the enemies level. I would have to develop two different runs, each one using/not using Donnel, and track every single round of combat between any unit whatsoever to fabricate something useful. Calculating average stats at certain thresholds is easy. Scripting every single round of combat according to your wishes is improbable in regards to being forced to reset each time your unit accidenally crits or misses an enemy for every single enemy unit in the whole game, twice.

I don't know which remarks you mean, maybe I'm just tired. Does this mean you want to leave the debate just a few hours after we* finally burried the hatchet? It just got good. :( Edit: We as in, everyone in this thread

I looked at Smash Fanatic's post. I don't know what kind of "tier list" they are refering to, but I never used Panne in any of my playthroughs, same with Lon'qu. I have a single one where I trained everyone, it's lunatic difficulty. Thats the one I used to experiment with and learn more about the game (and beat tson secret path). Personally, I'm talking about L+ classic no risen skirmish, no dlc. Any other mode isn't really worth having such an elaborate discussion over. Of course thats my opinion, feel free to talk about normal-lunatic, but please make note of it. They're comparing Fighter Donnel to Wyvern Rider Panne/Lon'qu. And Hero Donnel with Wyvern Lord Panne/Lon'qu, which is fine. Donnel wins by stats, the other two by utility. I argue that the renown second seal is best used on Avatar, since he/she is hitting lv 20 really fast, which makes it a necessity to use the second seal on her, lest one falls behind by wasting exp on a capped character.

This is the best approach. I made a crucial mistake in my calculations, and that's my fault (though it is 3:30 a.m. in germany), so please forgive me for that. I'd like for this discussion to continue on the current path. It's much more fruititious in the long run, and we can actually learn more about the game from each other by sharing information. I love it. To get back on topic, I also believe that the flying ability is very strong in this game. Especially for tactical maneuvers like flying to the eastern island in chapter 16. (random example from the top of my head)

I made an error, it's corrected now. My formula reflects the same smash fanatic's stats after fixing the growth numbers.

I took it from http://serenesforest.net/awakening/characters/growth-rates/base/ This is incorrect since it's donnel's base growth without class. I'll correct it. Edit: I'll use these numbers now: http://serenesforest.net/awakening/characters/growth-rates/full/

Archer Chrom is great in my playthrough. I didn't reclass Chrom at lv 10 though. I waited until lv 14. Just because you can re-class Chrom/Vaike doesn't mean that it's the best approach to the game. On the other hand, reclassing Donnel is the only way to get him out of the trash that is the villager class.

10/1 fighter donnel 34.45 HP, 17.75 str, 3.15 mag, 11.85 skl, 13.3 spd, 20 lck, 11.85 def, 3.6 res This is what he posted. It's not what I calculated. Even if you add +5 HP as fighter, he only has ~31.3 hp. Consequently all the math in his post is flawed. Incorrect, as pointed out by Irysa in post 452. I corrected the formula and got the same numbers.