[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

To be honest this whole dilemma is not a big deal.

And here I am: I've put too much stock into trying to explain all this.

I'm going to do some other things with my time...

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

What I'm seeing here in general, is...

A lack of comprehension of the actual conversation

Complaints about the stupidity of Soleil's character and/or conversation(s)

LGBT being offended

I won't blame any camp here. I can understand assuming things before reading into them. I can understand disliking a characters' writing, or thinking something is poorly written.

With those being offended, it's just probably a sign of them being hurt, but using their energy to complain instead of helping themselves.

By golly, if you're hurting because of who you are, get help.

And I can certainly understand being offended or hurt.

I haven't been hurt much. Most of my hurt has been my problem, and others haven't been so lucky.

I've been hurt before. For years I put a ton of stock into my intelligence. I was a perfectionist.

When someone criticized me, or if I got something wrong, I would flip my sh**.and cry.

If someone laughed at me, I'd take it super personally. If someone corrected me, even if they weren't mean about it, I'd get hurt.

It'd be worse when it was unwarranted. When people were mean, not just critical.

My problem? Putting too much stock into what others thought of me. Was intelligence bad? No. But, I shouldn't have been so invested in it emotionally.

Think of the last time you got offended regarding something you put so much into. I can understand this, and I bet you all can too.

It's a bit more complicated than that.

I think that people care about the way non-straight characters are portrayed in media because it so heavily impacts how people are treated in real life. I find things like bisexual characters "pretending to be bisexual to get back at their fathers but actually straight" (like Soleil apparently is according to that article, though it didn't reveal which support this is mentioned in) or not existing at all or characters written off as being gay/lesbian even though they show attraction to both genders... I find it all really irritating.

It's not because bisexuality is synonymous with my identity, because it really isn't. Like you said you would be, I consider it just a minor part of my character and don't get involved much in "the community". It's because I am tired of the responses and comments people say, knowingly or otherwise, in real life. Even if you don't put much stock in your identity It's annoying to constantly hear people saying things like bisexuality doesn't exist, or that they are lying, or deceitful... and those are really common things to hear. I don't get angry when I see characters presented badly because it offends me personally, because it doesn't, I get angry because it's having media like this that reinforces those things that people say to or around me in real life that get under my skin.

As another example, Look at women who get angry about female characters who are portrayed badly. You can say that they are just "putting too much stock in their gender" and shouldn't be offended, but if somebody is harassed by a creepy guy on the bus and has men making sexist comments at them you can see why a particularly bad portrayal of a female character will get under their skin.

The thing is, is that leaving something out doesn't immediately mean dismissal of it not existing. I agree with you on the sexualization.

But...just because a game doesn't have female characters doesn't mean it's automatically sexist against women. And same goes for men as well.

Take things by a case-by-case basis.

Here, in Fire Emblem, this sexuality argument doesn't hold a lot of stock. There aren't a ton of LGBT characters here to begin with in this established fantasy world, and Fates is no different.

Now let's say you made a movie about MLK with no African Americans.

That would deserve criticism. THAT is exclusion. That is racist.

How about a movie realistically based in China, but with all causcasians? Racist.

How about a movie based on a true story in Los Angeles, with all men. That's sexist.

How about a game where every woman has big jiggly boobs (Senran Kagura). Unrealistic, sexist, objectifying.

So anyways...while people aren't exactly right in their criticisms of all this Fates situation, I certainly understand them.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

And how exactly do you claim to know this?

It's easy to make assumptions when you don't have all the information.

That's not the point here. Perhaps I shouldn't have said that, as I don't really know (it depends on the time period of me being gay; i'd likely be least accepted in elementary/middle school and more in HS, if perhaps you're wondering). I mean, no s*** it's easy for me to not put stock in my identity because I'm straight. I am not by any means oblivious to that.

I'm saying that there are some LGBT people who put too much stock in their sexual identity, hence their behavior here. There are some LGBT people who don't put a lot of stock in their sexual identity.

I'm not judging anyone here. I'm saying, if someone has been/is being bullied/harassed/shunned due to their sexuality, or dealing with depression/suicidal thoughts, I think that a step they don't need to take is rail against things such as this. Rather, they need help doing whatever they need to do to overcome whatever they need to.

It's a matter of priority, and finding and addressing the real problems.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

Maybe the problem is that people put too much of their stock in their sexual identity?

If I were gay, I wouldn't flaunt my orientation as my identity. I wouldn't be super into the communal aspect. Sure, it'd be a hotly controversial part of me, and a part of me that will affect things I do, but it wouldn't be something I really put investment into. It'd just be part of who I am and that's it.

See if I were to put a lot of stock in that, I believe I'd be pretty offended at anything resembling opposition to that. I'd probably be pretty militant against stuff like this. I would be really into everything related to this part of me and dedicate my time, resources, and energy to it all. Like, I know me. When I'm really into something, I'm REALLY into something. This doesn't apply to everyone but you get my point?

So maybe, just maybe, people should not put so much stock in their sexual identity?

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

It's a problem of taking something personally, that should not be taken personally. And even if it is taken personally, people shouldn't take offense by it in the first place. But they are offended anyway.

That said, regardless of all this, I was unaware of Andrea-Ritsu situation. Harassment and threats are definitely not okay...

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

Admittedly, I kinda assumed negative things about Soleil until I actually did some reading into her support convos and checked out that article I just posted. It cleared a lot of things up.

If only everyone did research before crying about LGBT disrespect or date-rape or whatever.

Haha, don't worry about it. It's natural to assume before coming to knowledge of something for yourself. I think that maybe we're all guilty of it at some point and to some degree, including myself. You had the courtesy to not flip your s*** like so many others here lol.

Moreover Kamui does not drug her to get her, cause the support can be done after Kamui's wedding to another character.

Also a good point!

This predicament will dissolve pretty quickly once people remedy their lack of knowledge.

I was not aware of the issue with her and her father Lazward's conversation. I think dragonlordsd has a good point in that she could be lying as well. And that's probably the only real potential issue at hand. Character inconsistency if she's not exaggerating/fibbing.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

Yeah, I remember that Harry Potter scene. Not to mention it happens a lot in other books as well. People just took this and ran like a herd of sheep. Really sad, actually.

If anyone reads it, it's kinda funny and obviously well intentioned of trying to help her. The only part I found odd was the whole 'treasure' yourself thing (cultural I'm assuming), and then the fact she's obviously a lesbian (I'm pretty sure they only wrote in that men are 'okay' to justify the fact that she ONLY supports with men), but it's not like the game handled same-sex romances very well ANYWAYS (not being able to get the kids anyone), so it shouldn't even be THAT big of a controversy.

Bad handling. Bad writing. But nothing that's outright offensive and 'down with Fire Emblem', as I've seen on Tumblr/a few users here. *shrugs* Regrettable, and I do hope they change the 'treasure yourself' part of it in the localization, but the rest is obviously tongue in cheek joke of Kamui just being helpful.

Yeah. I mean magic's been around since the beginning of the series. You've gotta expect some shenanigans with that. Harry Potter is filled to the brim with that stuff.

In this situation, it's just a bit silly, if disrespectful or naive on Kamui's part.

I'm kinda surprised at some of the things said in this game. Like, it seems Soleil's pretty willing to give herself away. Like I wouldn't be comfortable touching a woman's chest before marrying her. That's just weird haha.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

I think all of you should read this-- https://archive.is/qINBl

This article will clear up a lot of confusion concerning the controversy over this support convo and Soleil's character in general.

Kinda sad some people need an article to clear it up instead of the text files themselves.

A bit late to reply to this, but here's an actual Harry Potter example: In Chamber of Secrets, Harry,Ron and Hermione slip drugs on Crabbe and Goyle to knock them out and hide them while Harry and Ron transform into them so they can sneak into the Slytherin common rooms.

Doesn't completely match what I was going for. The Polyjuice Potion there was used to knock them out for the purpose of investigation, not to directly benefit the recipient. Nothing bad happened to Crabbe and Goyle there if I recall correctly. Well, they got knocked out. And fell.

I mean, it has something to do with it in regards to using magic without people knowing. I'll give what you gave that.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

If Kamui was meant to overstep any boundaries here, his environment (in this case Solei) would have reacted to it accordingly.

But those are her next two lines:

Soleil: H-Huh!? So I can see you as a girl!!?

...

Soleil: E-Ehhhh!? I-I’m glad you feel that way but… I have a very specific type… and besides, I mean, you’re Kamui…

This is not the reaction of someone who just found out that someone abused their trust and drugged them, to say the least. She does not react to this at all and therefore this clearly wasn't intended to be the result of a character flaw on Kamui's part. The script simply doesn't care about the lack consent and expects us to just ignore it.

Or maybe she's kinda okay with it, and perhaps that is a character flaw on Soleil's part...

What a muddy sitch, don't really know what to think.

EDIT:

Just to clarify to everyone: the real point of contention is Kamui (with well intentions) dropping the potion in her drink without her knowing. It has nothing to do with homophobia, "curing" her of her sexuality, nefarious motives, etc.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

If this scene was meant to show how socially inept Kamui is, Soleil would have been allowed to actually react to this revelation. Instead, the script just moves on as if nothing happened..

Elaborate, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

[Fire Emblem Fates Soundtrack]

Can't get over this track (Map B1): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK8Jh1XxRcY

I loved it ever since I heard it in the Japenese...Direct?

Hiroki Morishita, you da real MVP. You came outta nowhere. But you da man.

[Do you ship for love or for stats?]

... Both. Can I say both? Because both.

Nothing wrong with both. I'm a both guy in many personal tastes myself.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

The best way that this conversation makes sense to me is that it is just another example of Kamui being a naive and sheltered (yet loveable) moron. That's the only way this makes sense as he immediately apologizes and explains why he did it once Soleil starts freaking out about seeing cute girls all over the place.

Again, this will come out in the wash during localization, especially now that attention has been drawn to it. The lack of consent is the issue here, and that is easily fixable. Hopefully, if anything, it will mean that the localizers will take the opportunity to make her a character with better writing and more depth.

This also makes sense. He's sheltered, he definitely lacks knowledge and awareness in certain areas, and perhaps this is a good reflection of that.

In this light, it's more about that, moreso than a character flaw. I mean, it's likely both to a certain degree. But this sheds a new light on this conversation!

Personally don't mind if this changes or not during localization.

I'd also like to say that the attention this is getting, in retrospect, shouldn't be surprising. Ever since Gamergate, there's been a somewhat obivous push to look at the relationship between video games and women. This just ended up in the crosshairs of that battle, whether it was warranted or not.

Yeah, I think you make a good point. It's certainly not surprising. It's just stupid, that's all.

[Illusory Revelations#FE General Discussion]

This game looks soooo exciting.

Only thing, is that I kinda wish Katsura Hashino (of Persona fame) was somehow involved in this. But, peeps from the Devil Survivor and Radiant Historia crew sounds pretty awesome in and of itself.

[Do you ship for love or for stats?]

For me it's about love, or whoever I see fit, unless I'm playing on higher difficulties.

It was fun trying to get Chrom to marry Olivia in Awakening. I'm not sure how I feel about them being a couple but it WAS fun. And funny.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

It's called "not derailing the thread". It's also a mod request. In other words, either continue this via PM or drop it. I don't care which one you do.

What I'm really doing is comparing one related thing to the topic in this thread.

Not derailing. Hm. I'm a little disappointed.

Eh, whatever. I made my points. See it as you wish to see it, I don't really care...

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

The moral differences between Kamui and Harry are outside of the scope of this thread.

Are they though? So you're just going to avoid discussion? I mean there are similarities and differences between the two but why say it's outside the scope when it is within the scope and you can intelligently converse about it?

People are flipping out about this, when there have been many similar situations in other games, movies, etc. Some not arousing such discord as this.

I think it merits better discussion than dropping it like it's hot like that...

It's absolutely ludicrous how up in arms people are over this.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

No matter what the intent, putting stuff in other people's food, even if it does no harm at the end of the day, shows a distinct lack of personal respect (even if Kamui somehow did enough research to guarantee that Soliel wouldn't react badly to the powder, or a combination of that powder and that drink).

The real-life consequence is that some people will end up sick/dead because of it. Unfortunately, THAT goes over heads, too.

Yes, and while Kamui was smart about it, of course it's disrespect on his part. And that's really only the bad part of the conversation.

Now, what do you think of Harry, with his placebo? Do you think that was disrespect? I'm not quite sure. But it surely was consensual as Ron saw the potion and downed his drink anyways. I mean, I'd call that mutual consent without mutual understanding, with a good outcome in regards to the eventual Quidditch match.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

Huge difference.

Saying "I put something in your drink" and not putting anything in it probably won't harm the person. Unless you claimed to put something that killed lactose in milk, and didn't (that's scummy).

Saying "I didn't put something in your drink" and doing so leads to a world of problems. You can claim you put soy sauce in my dinner, without doing so, to see how I react. Chances are, I'll have a slightly upset stomach (due to nervousness), but otherwise be fine. If you slip soy sauce in my food, I'll end up being very sick. It's not something most people have to worry about, but shit like this has happened IRL, and I don't want to encourage it. Likewise, I don't expect most people reading this to truly understand how hellish it is to have such severe food sensitivities, but I'm damn well gonna try.

Besides, messing with other people's food shows a distinct lack of respect for personal boundaries. If the writers wanted to show that side of Kamui, why not have him borrow her stuff without asking?

It doesn't matter what Kamui put in her drink. What matters is that he did.

Another point that I failed to mention is that they were putting magic in there to aid them. Not food that could potentially poison them.

Neither the potion nor the Felix Felicitis (or the lack thereof) inherently harmed the recipient. On the other hand, some food can, like you said. And drugs. But see there's the difference there.

[Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive]

Lol at the ignorance and people being offended.

There's literally no date rape or ulterior motives on Kamui's part.

He's trying to help her talk to women with the potion.

Sure, he did it without her knowing. But it looks like Soleil appreciated his help.

Think Felix Felicis in Harry Potter. Harry made it seem as though he put it in Ron's drink even though he didn't, and he drank it anyways. To give him a placebo effect to aid him in his Quidditch match. What Ron didn't know was that Harry didn't actually put any of the "Liquid Luck" into his drink.

Granted, this was kind of consensual, but my point is that both Kamui and Harry did similar things, with both having good intent in helping their friend. Kamui slipped something in Soleil's drink to help her talk to girls. Harry acted as though he did to help Ron with Quidditch. Same motive: Wanting to help their friend.

The only bad part is that Kamui did it without her knowing. But it's not like it hurt her or anything. So, he should have let her know prior to giving it to her, and that's on him. But, at least he WAS trying to help, and nothing bad happened to Soleil.

He just fell in love with her at the end, and so did she. Well, maybe she was more infatuated. And bisexual. But that's not the point.

This really is not, and should not, be a problem.