GoXDS
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1 hour ago, Rezzy said:
Wow, Cordelia really got knocked down. She was top of the tier last I saw. I'm surprised Nino is so high.
It kind of bugs me about the tier names. C is supposed to mean average, but it's the lowest possible tier. I'd change A+ to just A, A to B, and so forth, so C tier was called D tier.
I don't often see C as the average though so that part doesn't bother me. however, the '+' designations are probably valid. as the list mentions at the top, SS was changed to S+ to emphasize less of a gap with S. so you can put the same reasoning for A+ and B+. normally, if you saw Unit A was A tier and Unit B was B tier, it'd be really easy to claim Unit is is superior to B and/or can be used in like 85%+ of situations. however, B vs B+... shrinks to either metagame considerations (more so at least), or something like 60%+ of situations instead. and people wouldn't immediately say B+ outright outclasses B, which is probably the intention
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Robin, being a Mage, should have low Def and locked 2 range. not factoring distractions (the other enemies), I can't see why you can't kill Robin (especially if you can block him off). but as mentioned, just go grind. especially since a few of the missions require Arena and Tower clears
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well generally you never ever want to come to a situation where Miracle might trigger anyways
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Miracle is the Shrine Maiden Skill, so yes
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Sakura is not a bad option if you want mixed. her Str isn't that far below her Mag.
Sakura: Kana has 32.5/40 Str/Mag personal growth before class
Hana: Kana has 45/20 Str/Mag before class
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overall, all your choices are standard or ok. Jakob x Oboro is non-standard since Dwyer just doesn't have a lot going for him
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You're right, I misinterpreted the information. In the source I was using they were talking about allied units other than the supporting unit having a C+ support rank, that wasn't completely clear to me at first.
I will correct my mistake right away, and while I used the avatar as an example it wasn't my intention to claim that it only works with the avatar.
It is true that you could just check Serenes for all the raw information, but everything is rather fragmented in my opinion, so I tried to make things a bit more concrete with an example.
The effect that multiple adjacent allies have on the stat boosts is also somewhat neglected/underexposed. (unless I missed something)
Anyway, thanks for the feedback!
I meant check mostly for the extra details (who provides what) at this pt. admittedly, the site isn't as organized or transparent/easy to interpret at I'd like (Pair Up bonuses are easy to find but Attack stance bonuses aren't. page on Tag Team/Pair Up should link to those pages as well, etc.). the stuff everyone mentioned in this thread has cleared up most if not all of the extra details or details that aren't immediately clear/apparent
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@above the +5 Dodge is inherent to Guard Stance and not restricted to Avatar nor to C+
but yea, serenes already has the details of both Stances on the site, too
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Thanks for the replies.
@ SalShich10N > The parents contribution don't depend on chapter, but only depend on the stat of the parent, is'nt it ?
yes but under the assumption there's no excessive grinding, parents' lvls will somewhat scale with story. and even then it's not parents' lvls that matter but their actual stats (so a really blessed unit is best ofc)
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how do skills work for overlapping class trees?
like say i did sakura!rhajat, where she would have onmyoji from both diviner and shrine maiden. which tier 1 skills would she learn? i guess the diviner ones would make sense, but i would think they're not going to lock her out of the other skills?
unsure of the order but iirc the lower lvl ones first
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When I reclass do I learn the skills of the unpromoted version of the class I switched too?
For example, I'm a level 15 Nohr Noble and switch to Hero. Levelling up, will I only get Sol and Axebreaker or the Mercenary skills Good Fortune and Strong Ripose as well?
depends which base class it's extending it from. for example, if you're venturing into Hero from Fighter, you'll learn HP+5 and Gamble instead. if you have both, then all 4 Tier 1 skills
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the way you're phrasing it just implies that bases don't matter much at all for early units and that's just not true. anecdotal evidence is very poor evidence. for example your Mozu always capped by 15-18? just on averages she'll cap by Lvl 19-20. Saizo reaches 15 Def by Lvl 19 on average. so stop using anecdotal evidence to back your arguments
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No US DID get the autographed poster, its the Special Edition game case cover, when you open the case and take the cover out the case the poster folds out from the case cover.
And the key chains were available sepreately but free with purchase of the Special edition depending on where you bought it from, I think GameStop and Walmart were the only 2 with the keychains.
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And Hold on with the Silas thing, Im at work and my DS is at home.
oh, if you count THAT as the poster, sure I guess. but yea, keychains don't really count since not all sources offered it.
I also lean towards agreeing with the others here. I find myself hardpressed to see how you're that limited in funds unless you're excessively spending it on forges or reclassing constantly. bases are extremely important. here's a resource for checking averages though it's somewhat limited: https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/hiushi/FE14AverageStats/blob/master/index.html
shared units vary a bit because it doesn't take into account different starting values (Kaze, especially Silas [especially Rev!Silas]), and can't do children or special classes. while Silas has average Spd growths, because of his low bases, his Spd is still a problem. I always ended up benching him because I just prefer speedy units in general and he ended up speed screwed on top of his low bases.
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And no, in order to own all 3 routes of fates without the special edition thats a total of $100 exact.
The special edition was $80 and came with an Artbook, 2 posters and one was autographed Yusuke Koaki, a 3DS carrying pouch, and 2 FE: Fates keychain accessories.
it's only $100 if you decided for some reason to buy 2 physical instead of 1 + Digital 2nd route + Revelations, making it $80, too. is the need for a physical thing worth losing the free stuff from having multiple routes on 1? the US SE also didn't have the posters or keychain but yes, SE still better worth (not that SE or CE like this isn't uncommon for Nintendo =\)
but yea, I want to know what your Revelation Silas's stats were like because I'm quite doubtful he can "solo" the whole thing by himself. what do you specifically mean by that anyways?
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Thanks! So would they a 10/1 stay viable until they cap out, or would the 5 level experience penalty relative to their stats leave them suffering before they could get any level 15 skills? Would even level 5 promoted skills be pushing it?
for general units, it's unnecessary and maybe ill-advised (mostly in Conquest where you're more likely to cap). even at Lvl 10/1, that's a 6 lvl jump so unless that unit was underlvled, you're basically not getting exp with them for 2-3 chapters.
for underlvled units or units that seriously need a boost (like Benny w/ Wary Fighter), then it's ok. some people promote healers early so they can do weapon ranks earlier. not a major difference overall
you mentioned that they're throwaway units, ie. being replaced and benched, right? then the other thing to consider is the children's base stats. a 10/5 would've lvled less than a 20/5 and thus pass on a smaller base stat inheritance though that's at most 1 pt in a stat maybe.
whether it's worth early promotion is a bit fuzzy for Lvl 5 skills. if you're going 10/5, you'll take away less exp from other units and will be stronger during use. could recruit the child earlier that way, too. Lvl 15 is is kinda late imo. if I didn't want to use a unit, I'd just switch sooner rather than later. in Birthright, 20/15 is already mid-late 20s (Chapter) while Conquest is mid 20s
iono, haven't invested enough playtime into Fates (nor have I ever early-promoted) to give a more educated response so your decision is just as good as mine
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How does internal level work with early promotion? Does it make you gain exp fast for your level like Camilla and Leo, or are you suddenly leveling like somebody who took all of the levels to 20 normally? I'm trying to gauge whether an early promotion for a throwaway character would be worth it to get some good skills on their superior kid.
Tier 2 Internal Lvl = (10 + x/2) + Visual lvl, where X is promotion lvl. so Felicia1 and Jakob 1 are 0/1 and hence have tier 1 exp. Camilla is 10/1 so she acts as if Tier 1 Lvl 16. a 20/1 would gain exp like a Lvl 21 Dread Fighter
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imo, availability only matters in two ways. one, both have about even utility at any one map that they're both available. then it comes down to availability to decide who was more beneficial to your run as a whole. so availability is more whole run perspective rather than chapter. or, if you want to invest resources into Unit A or B but both have the same utility gain from the perspective of 1 chapter, you could have invested those resources into the one with more availability assuming you are able to invest those resources before the other unit way earlier (therefore, would've had more utility as a whole)
the second is if any units become unavailable at certain points after they're available. not particularly relevant in Fates since that's not as common (compared to say RD... the availability issues there, yo)
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Do the foxes do 10+ bonus damage to Keaton? He can attempt to tank it out via Beastrune, but then there's the speed hit. Not sure if Charlotte has enough speed to avoid being doubled, since that usually leaves one of my non-tanks dead, or close to it.
Beastbane just doubles stone Mt so +6 w/ Beaststone and +9 against Beastrune. Charlotte, assuming same lvl as the enemy in this Chapter is Lvl 20/4 w/ 24.45 Spd. Beaststone Foxes have 23 Spd and Beastrune Foxes have 18 Spd. Keaton also has 18 Spd before Stone mods
oh also reminder that Beastbane is x2 Mt while effective weapons are x3 Mt
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either immediately for the weapon ranks or Lvl 10 for the Heartseeker. the only class change item that affects exp is Master Seal
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A) you don't understand what i'm saying. turtle strategies only really "turtle" for small bits of a few specific maps. That playstyle lets yout ake it easy in one turn where you setup auras/arallies and a tank (...or just use Benny and hope enemies actually aren't scared of closing in). The next turn forces your hand. You need to get in there and kill everyone that was baited unless you want your tank to fall apart to magic or debuffs + poison strike/grisly wound. The only thing turlting would do in a tier list is giving a small boost to characters with good tankiness and a small boost to characters with great offense but little durability like Charlotte and Arthur.
3a) A bunch of lance users in CQ is not somethign you see that often though, especially after Charlie joins. Worse: those lance users are generally in packs where one of the dastards has Bolt Naginata.
Tomahawk is pretty expensive, inaccurate and makes Charlotte have no safety window if she misses her attack (remember, she is no effie, who can try that thing and shrug if she misses). If you are using THAt on EP it means you either have charlotte busy at the very edge of an enemy (and if you are using charlotte for that it usually means you would be better off using Niles or Bowzu cuz you are probably fighting ninjas), or trying to use her as bait from over the wall which is actually fine as long as its not one of those death traps (where killing enemies means more combat which eventually kills you). Hand Axe forges would be a better argument tho.
B) And being forced to depend on other units throughout the game to maybe have a chance at hitting stuff with the most inaccurate weapon class in the game isn't a con?
C) Bait faceless with Corrin+Silas, attack with Mozu + silas. That's not hard. inefficient most likely but not hard at all. And... if we are considering use of resources as part of efficiency, this is practically a given for Paralogue 1 since you barely get eXP out of it if you are not a mozu, so there isn't even a point to ORKO'ing things.
Charlotte needs exactly the same babying because you need to constantly sic a healer on her if you are giving her EP utility, unless you married her to Samurai corrin and got her Vantage. Paralogue 1 does not scale. Charlotte has to kill thing in chapters you can't afford to mess around because you need to baby her., and is definitely harder to baby.
mozu literally needs half of an easy mpa that is easily manipulated to bring her to a good level (5 or 6). Enemies in chapter 8 have crap defense and crap speed which gives her more levels. Half of chapter 9 will either come at you in the beginning and be at low HP or be hit by DV and... be at 1 HP. Chapter 10, if anything, has peggies that are easy pickings.
Chapter 13 on the other hand starts with magic in one side, takumi in the other, and flying enemy tanks carrying more tanks coming at you from the center. The latter forces you to take charlotte out of the way because enemies can pursue her and will tank her out. The central part of the map with reina requires reliability because missing one attack there means missing a kill, which means the enemy can go behind your units and pick at Azura/Elise. Charlotte is unreliable at that point even with WTA.
It is an horrible map for charlotte even if she didn't need any babying. This means that bringing her up to a good level from that map is ACTUALLY hard even if the Ai cooperates with you (Reina+Takumi's range has a few blind spots camilla can hit wyverns from, killing them and forcing the knight they carried to be dropped of in the other side of the river).
A) ofc I know that? but if you're doing it multiple times a chapter multiple chapters because of a unit(s), then back to what I said before. and as mentioned by others, just how much extra utility does a trained up Mozu provide over other units? is that small extra utility (which in itself is debatable, given locked 2-range), it's almost definitely offset by the extra effort
3A) there's plenty of spearfighters. better yet, as mentioned, Charlotte is even better off versus Sword/Tome users with Dual Axe. and no, Bolt Naginata is really rare.
B) (this labeling...) bows are nearly just as bad. factoring Weapon ranks, there's only 5 Hit difference. and again, abusing WTA, especially Dual Axe, it's not mandatory.
C) Dual Axe Charlotte can still see a lot more EP usage safely. and also has access to Pike-ruin (if that's available in Conquest), too for even stronger lance killing. Archer Mozu is easily seeing less combat
Isn't 1 Luk = 1 CEV? 1 Icon + Arthurs's base 1 luk = 5 Luk = 5 CEV, which offsets Misfortune's -5. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
yea, Fates nerfed Luc so 1 CEv = 2 Luc
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I know. as with Charlotte, it was more of a counterpoint than legitimate push for
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i understand the points you are trying to convey but you've got some things wrong.
1- Literally no chapter in conquest has that turn count reduction being 0. You know why? Because if you overcommit to turtling most of the time you die. you turtle one turn, and wipe the enemy out in the next. If your party doesn't have the STR/MAG/SPD/Skills to deal the damage, HP/DEF/RES/SPD/Range to ensure survival and not drain resources with healing, and the SKL/LCK to ensure they can reliably combat, they would be taken down a peg in the tier list for each point they fail at excelling.
If you don't kill the enemy they kill you. Reinforcements in almost all maps go hunt you down, so it is not as extreme as you think.
2- there is a very fine line between boss/arena/dance/sing/my castle abuse and babying an unit. I still understand the point, and it is true that there is no way to "regulate" this. i mean, you could say "if you are not directly contributing to clearing the chapter's objective it is banned", which would invalidate abuse but still allow for babying. But that leaves the loophole of "preparing to bait the enemy" as theoretically Sing abuse can be seen as preparing an ambush thanks to inspiring song. You could also argue that spending 30 turns immobile because of healing descant is fine...
3- Charlotte as an example doesn't hold up. she will never be as useful as Mozu besides pair-bot utility for four reasons:
A) There are more targets that mozu can safely eliminate than Charlotte can because one will need to be up close and is counting on doubling (read: possibility of counter attacks or... just counter) and the other can do it from the safety of 2-range. Attack stance can help, but that requires more setup to work (read: effort).
B) Charlotte will always have really bad skill whereas mozu not only has good skill but gets Certain Blow.
C) Charlotte is actually hard to baby because she comes under levelled at the midgame and has these two above issues hit her much harder than they would when she catches up; and for sure much harder than they ever hit mozu.
D) This ties into the last point you made: Charlotte can only use Mozu's paralogue to grind weapon ranks. It does not offer enough EXP for her to get going as much as it does for mozu earlier.
1) Unit 1 can be used in a non-turtle or turtle strat in more situations than Unit 2, who's more limited to just turtling, then Unit 1 should be ranked higher. but in a strat that defaults to turtling, these two Units would basically be ranked the same (which is what I meant by the utility of Unit 1 being able to non-turtle being set to 0 because if you won't be taking advantage of it, it's basically 0 anyways). you're taking the word "extreme" too literally. just because it's an extreme doesn't mean it's not a valid strat, just like LTC isn't impossible. I was only pointing it out as the far opposite ideology. plus, I said you were leaning towards the extreme
2) most people wouldn't view 30 turns as fine, turtling or not. I brought up Azura not because of early song (though that's a point, too), but that you can bring her to Tier 2 lvls (assuming Dance Exp doesn't drop to 0) and now you have another contender for Heart Seal. she does have fantastic Str and Spd. and she has access to Kinshi so she can have similar if not far better capabilities than early Mozu. maybe babying might not have been the ideal phrase to use but it's still anything that requires you to take extra attention and to slow down because said unit cannot hold its own weight yet. as for the other examples you bring up, it'd be pretty silly to label any of those as babying.
3) A) Tomahawk is a thing + see B) w/ Mozu. and Charlotte can see way more EP action if there's a bunch of lance users (though in a turtling strat, this is mostly moot). and against units that she can't double anyways, Hand axe (which also can deal with 1 Range, which is still an advantage even if you say no 1-range isn't a disadvantage)
B) Attack Stance and/or Guard Stance can help with Hit. and you'd mostly send her in for WTA where she has Hit bonuses anyways. and going off for a second, you mentioned that Mozu should be ORKOing stuff by 10? let's see, enemies are ~Lvl 8-9 so we'll put Mozu's Lvl 8 stats here (Archer): 10.55 Str/12.6 Spd + Iron Bow 8 Mt (D Rank). a Spear Fighter has 25 HP/10 Def/11 Spd. so, she's doing ~8.55 dmg. where's the ORKO? Ninjas? 23 HP/6 Def, so 12.55 dmg. still no ORKO. who the heck is providing 10~17 dmg Dual Strikes?
just for fun, how would Charlotte do if we nerfed her to Lvl 8? 13.5 Str and 11.7 Spd with Iron Axe 8 Mt. deals 15.5 to Ninja and 11.5 to Spear Fighter. 19.5/15.5 respectively with Steel. easy ORKO without counter attack on Ninja with Dual Strike. Spear Fighter can be ORKO'ed with +1 Str and +4 Spd
C) Mozu is also hard to baby because of 2-range lock. she can only go for 1 kill every player phase only. especially in her paralogue. that's a lot of effort to get her kills as 2-range lock
D) at least Charlotte starts C Rank Axes compared to Mozu who starts at E Rank and 2-range locked. do Paralogue 1 enemies scale? in either case, Charlotte doesn't need as much babying to catch up as Mozu. so she'll be able to gain outside the paralogue more easily than Mozu
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Erm, what class is Charlotte supposed to be in this case?
the answer you'd like the least ^^
keep in mind this is being used as a counterpoint rather than me actually pushing for it. the investment needed is still high enough to offset the max utility
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Corrin definitely doesn't get as much out of a heart seal as jakob and Mozu for one simple reason: Nohr Prince is an acceptably good class, and Nohr noble is a great class. But i suppose you guys are rushing and not using Draccorin properly given the almost-LTC properties that the tier list is enforcing so wtvs. I'm out.
efficiency doesn't does not inherently mean rushing. it simply means not slowing down unnecessarily. if anything, true LTC is one extreme while what you're pushing for is learning towards the opposite extreme. on that side of extremes, where we set added utility of a unit being able to reduce turn count to be 0, a lot of lower tier units after a certain point simply end up having the same maximum utility.
how I see it, a tier list is basically utility/investment. taking extra turns to feed is a form of investment. you cannot deny that babying a unit does not bring down their place on the list on some level (even it's not a switch in placement, it could be a shrinking of a gap between 2 units). otherwise, in an extreme example, I can decide to grind Azura in Ch 4 to really, really high lvls (what lvl does she stop gaining dance exp anyways?). in a less extreme example, would you argue that Charlotte deserves more then? because I'd argue she has higher max utility than Mozu given her 75% Str and 65% Spd growths and at 20/10 having 34.75 Str and 28.35 Spd compared to Mozu's Sniper 26.2/33.2 and weaker weapon (or 22.3/32 as Kinshi). Charlotte also has one of the best Pair Ups. especially as mentioned that Mozu's lock to 2 Range so she'll still require more investment until promotion where she's still locked (Sniper), or much weaker but flight/Mov
you could also save Mozu's paralogue to invest the exp you could funnel into Mozu into another character, one that might have higher max utility (like Charlotte). so in that case, even if we don't care about having ridiculous turn counts, does this change many units' placements?
Math Emblem or rather question about math and number comparison in Fire Emblem Engage.
in Fire Emblem: Engage
Posted
Dex * 2 + Lck / 2 + Wpn Hit