Super Potat

yeah thanks you filled me in on why Mycen could be useful maybe more so than Forsyth. It's still not so much clear cut as Mycen won't really save that many turns at all like Forsyth (they're both not the most amazing units with 1 being trash, and 1 for 1 chapter). Also with the Atlas stuff, nice information so thanks a bunch.

In the final chapter however he won't be able to 1 shot anything (correct me if I'm mistaken) even with Gravidus and you have people that would be able to (like Mathilda and any of the Falcon Knights with Gravidus) so why wouldn't you send those in instead as they can deal with them on enemy phase (they shouldn't die that easily by that point iirc) rather than Mycen who cannot 1 round, and with Duma he isn't that hard in general and any other unit will be able to do as good as him and since Duma is all you need to kill to beat the map it's better to use one of the bow knights that can reach him easier to damage him then warp Alm in for the kill. With everything else that seems to be right and never thought about the sending Atlas back down to avoid the enemy spawns but if I'm not mistaken once Atlas leaves after you head North you can simply recruit him again and head North and not have him leave (I remember this happening on my playthrough although I can't say for sure). The only other thing I'll mention is the "Atlas is also actually quite a big factor in an efficient run since in LTCs" as I'd say that rating units is more based upon efficient runs in general more so than LTCs because LTC tier lists are so flipped in comparison but I'm not sure if unit spawns are in LTCs or not (as going south would trigger lots more enemy squads to spawn from Greith's fort?), if not then it should work in non-LTC efficient runs too.

In terms of actually playing efficiently though atlas is pretty low down there maybe even at the bottom because first shrine if you don't go out of your way for him is in sluice gate (there is a shrine there right?) and he prolly won't reach tier 2 by lost woods. Archer does salvage him though as archers at that point are always good (and you have excess bows iirc in Celica's route), 4 range is pretty strong, which is prolly his saving grace.

I suppose this is more just a discussion of if average stats should be taken as the golden standard and RNG screwing should be taken into account or not. Because if you go by average stats there's no reason to use Mycen pretty much ever as all your other units are more deserving of the slots and even if you do choose to he won't contribute much as your other units can already do that far easier. In a 0% growths run for example Mycen would be amazing compared to normal play because bases are literally everything but how much do you want to take that into account really in terms of ranking units as it would be so minor. In the case that you happen to take both Mycen and Forsyth into the last chapter of course Mycen would perform better, even if you got Forsyth up to a Baron/lvl 7 same as him as he'd have more mobility but you probably won't deploy him over anyone else unless they did get RNG screwed, and if they did how much would he really contribute? Forsyth will always contribute doing at least something over the course of a playthrough as he's just there for so much longer it's almost impossible for him not to when his stats aren't exactly just dirt so he can damage something every playthough rather than Mycen which might every 10 playthroughs or so if you want to use him for his actual filler utility rather than just interest over how good he is. Basically what Forsyth contributes is not negligible, it is just a small amount, but what Mycen contributes is.

Forsyth is slow and unlike mages he isn't as good at dishing out damage as them, he also joins a bit late for his level and bases making him less useful than other units. It's mainly important to compare units to everyone else while trying to make more quantitative judgements rather than just those in their class, as armour knights in general are worse than every other class just due to their class which needs to be kept into account when judging them. Also compared to the other armour knights while he turns out the best eventually Lukas is better just due to joining earlier and being able to get more levels. Also grind is an important thing to take into consideration as while units aren't rated by LTC or speedruns, they are measured by their efficiency to clear the game faster/easier and how much they help with that, grinding of course adds turns onto the total game turns meaning you're less efficient, meaning that you'd want to avoid that typically. In grinding every unit becomes quite boring as it's pretty much just rating off of growths and removes much of the difficulty the game has removing much of the challenge and making it less interesting to rate units on, to play depending on the person it can be more fun or whatever but that's a different matter.

On my run of Echoes I didn't do any dungeon grinding until Act 4 on Alm's side and on Celica's side only did it for Atlas to make him fun to use and never encountered any exp problems from using Forsyth a little. For someone to have some level of usefulness it doesn't require them to be uber powerful or anything or having to contribute more than a smige, he doesn't need to promote by end of Act 1, I promoted him Act 3 myself by barely using him, I didn't slow down for him at all really and even dying to a witch is better than doing whatever Mycen does as he doesn't make anyone else get damaged and need healing or anything (as pretty much anyone will take damage from witches due to res being low all throughout the game), even if you used Mycen in terms of efficiency he won't gain you anything due to not being able to 1 round and being doubled by mages and as someone said earlier, have a high chance of crits against him making him more of a liability than an asset. Forsyth shares his 4 move with every mage in the game except lacks the range they do and I don't see them being held back as much even on any sort of ranking. In general I'd like to say however that you're right, Forsyth isn't a good unit at all, but since there's no opportunity cost unlike other games and having him get a random kill here or tank a witch means that he contributes more overall than what Mycen would, as I can't see how he'd contribute anything if at all during where he's available, he just seems like an awful unit due to this, and if you got Zeke and Titania then you'd miss any deployment slots for him at all, and idk why'd you miss those except for LTC. With the dungeon and maybe final chapter (assuming you do 10 units from each side), idk why'd you deploy him over the villagers, Silque, Titania, Mathilda, Clair or Python as they're so useful, or any of Celica's route unless they got incredibly RNG screwed but in terms of a units quality it'd be debatable if you'd include that since it's usually based upon averages.

when you get him the rest of your army is also moving at 4 speed with the exception of Gray, Clive, Alm, and Clair, and only 1 of those are have good enough combat to 1 round (being Alm or Gray with the thunder sword), you could be getting tier 2s on some of them after the siege but I don't see it before meaning he can keep up with your army at that point and contribute something rather than whatever Mycen has. Also vs witches Forsyth actually works quite well, he doesn't get 1 rounded like Lukas vs them allowing him to be left reliably at the back of your army to bait them. While this isn't much, again I feel it contributes more than Mycen ever will.

Exp isn't something that people struggle for like ever throughout the game, beyond promotion exps and for forsyth to contribute anything he doesn't need any levels at all, having an extra unit is better than having a none existent one and I gotta be honest with personal experience Mycen would be theoretically useless in the final chapter, due to warp existing and Alm being able to kill so much shit in the final chapter. Mycen can't be used for rescuing and maybe hitting 2 people once for half their HP in the final chapter. Witches do exist and Forsyth is pretty good at dispatching them, Forsyth has a marginal effect but he has almost 0 opportunity cost, and Mycen's effect is marginal even if at all, because I myself while I did grind towards the end to see everyone in their final class, I didn't use any of those that I grinded in the final chapter and struggled to find a slot for Mycen. While most of this is based off of personal experience I don't think that much of it would be different on any different playthroughs except if my Alm got stat blessed without me realizing so he was way better in the final chapter than for everyone else.

at the time you get him, Mycen will be better than Forsyth, pretty much no matter what unless you grinded Forsyth as he'll be stuck as knight otherwise by the time you get to the final shrine, even if you deploy him in the dungeon. But the amount he'll contribute in that final dungeon is gonna be pretty low, overall you can avoid every fight in the final dungeon (apart from Alm's fight but no one but Alm can fight there so no use counting) and be completely fine, it's not like doing that is impossible either, and unless you get jump attacked you're just gonna clear most of the dungeon units in your player phase at the start (if you hit them with your sword attack) and you can do this with your other units that aren't Mycen and it would be better to do so with due to them actually growing from the exp you get (RIP 10% in all stats but HP) and 1 rounding them with at least 5 of your units shouldn't be hard at this point. In terms of the final level even then his use would be minimal if at all if you do decide to deploy him as Alm and bows dominance there is high and you'd have at least 3 bows spare Alm and at least 1 teleport. Forsyth is definitely worse in the last chapters and literally anyone would be better than him, but he definitely contributes more before hand to be better than Mycen.

I really don't get why this is the case due to other characters, like Mycen being playable at all. Mycen joins at the end of the game, when there's a 10 character limit to bring him into the next chapter, even if you skip Zeke and Tatiana you still have 14 other characters (with Alm being forced) to bring into end game/the dungeon besides him as keeping characters alive in this game is easy as hell with the turnwheel. And since you can deploy Celica's army instead of some of Alms in the final chapter I don't see any reason to use him, personally in my run everyone else surpassed him/was more deserving of a deployment slot by the time you get him. And while Forsyth isn't exactly good (still towards the bottom of any tier list of course) he contributes significantly more just from being present in so many chapters for free rather than being unusable. And on the off chance you do choose to deploy him, what's the chances he contributes much, if at all, due to Alm's and the Killer Bow's dominance? Feel like in general this is because for pretty much all players he isn't present so they don't remember Mycen being useless but more so Forsyth because they saw him in every chapter

How would people feel about a more 'epic' style of fire emblem game being more grand in scale and having a lot more class trees and diversity in these class such a 3 tiers and perhaps 3 or more options when promoting. I feel like this game should have a longer story and lots of characters on a whole and should have lots of different 'stories' that it skips between to give most of these characters usage. Bigger maps and more stuff to do at each time to use 10s of these units at a time on a map. Would people like this or be against it? Are there any rom hacks like what a described (other TRPGs on a whole, haven't seen any like fire emblem myself (not counting tear ring saga))? What ideas would you like to see employed in this style of fe? Comments on my suggestions and on others below? Thanks to Jotari's class tree which gave me the idea to start this topic http://i.imgur.com/01CFaLo.png EDIT: I feel like I didn't make my point clear enough about size. By size I mean having over 100 characters. This might be an epic type of task to take on but they'res so many other games that manage to flesh out diverse amounts of characters and on tv/movies too so if they really put the money behind it it could work.

1st: Thracia 776 - Mechanics are rather solid and I like almost all of them and would like to see them in other games (apart from capture because that wouldn't work too well in others, at least how it's done here) but the story kind of pales in comparison to FE4 but is still rather solid 2nd: Radiant Dawn - Loved the 3 tier system maybe for just the fact it gave bigger numbers and the story expanded upon FE9's story greatly with only part 4's tower of heaven being a letdown and acting as kind of a lazy way to being it all together (unless I'm missing a message here?). Other than that liked many of the mechanics like ledges which worked well due to not being used too often 3rd: Genealogy of the Holy War - Loved the map design here and the use of large maps unlike the others in the series and my favorite plot wise due to having the best villain in the series who you could see two sides to accross the generations (Arvis) and I liked the whole story as a whole with the plot twist in chapter 5 being amazing 4th: Sacred Stones - Extremely easy but can be turned up with hacks and the inclusion of branching trees gives more troop diversity. The story is also my second favorite in the series (beat by FE4) having a great villain and plot in general 5th: Path of Radiance - This like FE8 is extremely easy but has many nice mechanics like bexp that can definetly help leveling the healers in the game who were a massive pain before hand and the story is my third favorite in the series (beaten by the two above) with quite a nice story of Ike's development throughout the game with the Black Knight seemingly looming over him the whole time 6th: Binding Blade - Mechanics didn't have too much going for it after removing a lot from Thracia and the story was a bit lackluster at times in depth (did they forget about Eliwood half way though?!?!) 7th: Blazing Sword - I'm on board of the "story is bad" train for this game and the gameplay wasn't really exceptional because it kind of had the same mechanics from FE6 8th: Awakening - Difficulty spikes were painful and map design was quite boring with abuse of the system almost needed to win (skills) and without was too hard (actually having a balanced party) 9th: Shadow Dragon - Hate having to sacrifice characters all the time and didn't really like the gameplay due to removal of features in prior games (e.g. rescuing) Have yet to play the rest of the Marth games and FE2 and will probably not come around to them but might play FE14 down the line

Leaf is good in manster often seen as the hardest part of the game due to him being able to have training before hand. For the duaration of manster only Brighton really comes close in usefulness due to his good bases(/good starting level)

Just putting it out here in the Hector vs Roy contest that you should stop comparing growth rates between the two characters too much. In FE6 the growth rates are lower if only slightly on average and growth rates aren't really comparable throughout any of the games (cross-referencing games at least e.g. like now comparing Roy (FE6) to Hector (FE7)) so Roy having 5% more speed growth than Hector for example is a lot more than it says on the cover.

Want to figure out if you are playing 'the right path' or 'the bad path'? Well just pay another £19.99 and you can see 'the other side of the story' Sorry for that. But seriously if they make another 'split path' game like the recent 3-part wonder I might as well give up in the series, or my wallet.

Do we have to go throw this magic triangle discussion again (lenny face)

A bit later here but better late than never I honestly just want another Oliver (Radiant Dawn) because it was weird recruiting him and I liked it You have access to sleep+silence staffs (both usable on Sephiran) in Radiant Dawn, only berserk staffs aren't available in that and its prequel Really status staffs are extremely useful but I guessing you either use them way too willingly or way too sparingly as they are extremely useful on people standing on gates and the like (only game you can't do this in is Thracia 776 but there are plenty of non-standing on gate boss mobs to use it on). Btw sleep/silence can be used to save units instead of killing the enemy as most of the time healing units are way to weak to kill in one round but have high enough staff rank to wield these (most of these needing a staff rank of B/A) Though just to point this out using silence staffs on units to recruit them in Thracia doesn't work because silence staffs have the side effect of making them unable to talk (weirdly from my memory sleep staffs don't do this) That honestly sounds like an awful idea (not the fatigue, the latter) because it would make the bonuses of some units redundant i.e. the axe units, because I'm assuming peaks will give the most fatigue. It also discourages strategy as more deep strategy usually needs better positioning (so more movement and more movement in this system = more fatigue) and it would make the game harder for people having trouble with it i.e. not doing ranked runs and taking it slow. Also why would you not lose fatigue in forests? The game gives you a movement disadvantage in forests and not in plains so why do you not lose fatigue in forests As long as you get some kind of substitute if you don't do as well, maybe another manakete who comes in the next chapter and joins you if you don't have him in your party. If you do have him in your party it then says it won't join you because of the other manakete and then warns you about him before dying in combat making you wonder if recruiting him was the right option

Can't think of many hard people off the top of my head apart from Hannibal (and the one you just named) but there definitely are some more troublesome ones to recruit that I'm sure if I had a sleep staff handy would have used that on them to avoid the trouble of that. I mean comparatively to Xavier no one is harder to recruit so maybe you're thinking too extreme but with Xavier unless you're using it on the knights (they would require 2 sleep staffs) they don't help out with his promotion (it's also due to the fact that Leaf can not kill him in one blow and him to Leaf)(the reason a sleep staff isn't useful on him is because you can use Asvel dodge tanking him making him go out of troublesome range)

There are many enemy exclusive weapons, many of which are unique though, I do recall that the player could only get 2 dark tomes in Thracia 776 (the long-range one and something else) and all the others converted into one of those tomes when put in a allies inventory. Btw no only horses change colour, clothes and armour do too (sorry I couldn't help myself). Only thing you don't see on enemies though is brave weapons (like you pointed out) and I can't for the life of me remember brave weapons being on enemies in any other game than fe4 I don't know how you have gotten about not seeing long-range magic on the enemies because I remember seeing them as commonly on enemies as staves, staves even being less of a worry for me because I position my healers with restore in good range (some characters can do so much damage with long-range magic that when put in combination with some enemy units can result in one of your units dying in a single enemy phase) and if these staffs are hitting you their maximum amount of times then they definetly will be bothering you but at that point it is just you need to go faster in the level. They can be used effectively if you use on bosses/hard to recruit people making the task of killing/recruiting them so much easier. These staffs couldn't of course have been in Fates because of that infinite durability (I mean were they trying to kill resource management?!?!)

Adds a challenge to some maps where enemies have them + you can say that about many weapons that the player doesn't get too much access to but the enemy does due to durability restrictions EDIT: Sometimes enemies have unique weapons exclusive to them/you can't get them in any way

His dad forget whos who their names are so similar (it's Sigurd I was talking about) By similar I mean both begin with S

I don't personally see where all the hate from these things come from, and I would equally want the inclusion of long-range attack spells because while being horrible at times (I'm looking at you chapter 5 of fe4, could only send Lewyn and Sigurd past those meteor users) because for me that adds to the positioning of units and stops baby units from just seemingly charging in behind 2 stronger units so they don't get hit (of course when the amount of staffs + long-range spells become too high it can be a problem, feeling like 2 at max within range of one another would be the max seeing as 2 healers are almost needed most of the time) Whatever class they give it too would be more powerful than others unless they nerf that class to make it balanced, but then that class would most likely be worthless in compassion to other classes That's kind of the charm of the game (for me at least), going a bit yolo and crying yourself to sleep with 5 stat-less levels in a low. What I'm saying is I like gambling/games of chance (I've opened so many cs:go cases) EDIT: Changed Seliph to Sigurd

It can definitely work but of course it will cost resources which in games like awakening could have been put towards furthering the story instead of it just being a mess I mean I'm not one to turn down more (non-dlc) content, but most extra content has a cost (exceptions are things like extra art assets when the art team has nothing to do and so on) on the things in the rest of development so more support options = less of other features, be it story, gameplay, or something else

Sorry if my knowledge isn't very good, don't look up much while writing these and always end up writing them late in the night. It is really weird how you literally have no anima mages the whole time after p1 or dark mages for that matter They had tons of supports in awakening and all/most of them weren't very high quality conversations and didn't offer too much insight into any of the characters with s conversations more or less being getting married with no development shown

Read up on objectives (https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Objectives) and I don't really know what you're on about because RD has most of the same objectives as fates, spare a couple of odd ones (other than non-lord seige (only a specific unit can still only do it, but not the lord) and burning of supplies). Don't really see what you're getting at here Can see where you're coming from with this point though as the massive support pool for most people just seems pointless and I'd much rather prefer each character having only 3 or 4 detailed supports rather than getting my 'otps' together. Adds challenge to the game too if characters can only support other specific characters and not them all (I know only the avatar can support everyone in fe13 + fe14 but everyone else still has quite large support pools) All other points addressed in other posts I knew dracoknights were weak to thunder and resistant to arrows (taking no extra damage) but didn't think they were weak to wind magic, my mistake there and if I'm aware you don't get any fire wizards for the dain chapters nor any wizards for a while (you get tormod only in part one) if I remember correctly (no wizards of anima at least). Another point is that most laguz are just kind of shit and not worth losing (spare the kings) and Tibarn doesn't get affected by fire. Btw you may have misread mine as I was talking about wind magic, not fire and you can hit pegis with wind all you want and still even with not being able to hit dracoknights hard is still good vs them due to low res