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Bearissoslow

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    Supports you would have liked to see in PoR

    in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn

    Posted · Edited by Bearissoslow

    I've said it somewhere, so I'll say it here: it just comes down to preference. The time I used Tormod he was abysmal and had no redeeming factors besides oh fucking cocks 2 movement. He always was in the way and I was missing some of dat branded love. As for Calill, never bothered with her since I'd go insane without using a Mage for that long.

    At a certain point, you all can't convince each other to change which type of aspect you value most in a unit, so I think this shit's been going on too long. People can like their cake and eat it too, let it be with FE units.

    And no, I'm not going to respond to the essays in this thread because most of us haven't come in here with an open mind, just the mentality of proving that we're right. It's honestly a waste of time.

    Supports you would have liked to see in PoR

    in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn

    Posted

    It takes 24 Heals to reach C-rank. That's a lot more than 'a few chapters', even if you have them heal every single turn. Which obviously won't happen, due to usually not being able to heal on the first turn, or not being in range to heal someone (This is where Mist and Tormod's move leads become significant).

    Ahahahahaha, that's funny. You say 24 like it's a huge number. Tormod has to hurdle to this gap as well, but the problem is that his movement won't be helping him get anymore heals that Soren would be. Most of the chapters in which Tormod could be a Sage in (Crimea Marches, Entrusted, Defending Talrega) are chapters where close knit groups are used. CM has narrow hallways that mean anyone can reach a unit, Entrusted has a main path that only Fliers can deviate from, and DT isn't a terribly large screen in the first place, meaning that Soren will never be getting left behind. I'm waiting for the chapter the ends up being 300 steps long and thus Tormod's 2 movement is somehow game-breaking. Oh wait, that's not happening. Whoops.

    Besides, compare this to Calill. If Soren's promoting in Day Breaks, which he usually is, he has plenty of time for healing. For instance, let's just say that he's promoting at the end of part two of DB, meaning that he gets the ability to heal all through part 3 and 4, the combat centered chapters. Suddenly, that's 4 screens that Soren has to get 24 heals in. On average, that's 6 heals a screen. By the time Calill's coming in, Soren can easily use Physics. That's anything but unreasonable.

    By the time Tormod joins, we should have gotten ~5750 BEXP. Tormod only needs 758 to get to level 14 from base, for example.

    Ch. 4: 200

    Ch. 9: 300

    Ch. 10: 700

    Ch. 15: 400

    That's including the base BEXP you get from starting the game. I'm not aware of a figure on that, so I won't pretend to factor it in. If I've made a mistake here, let me know and I'll be glad to fix it. BEXP's never been an exact science for me.

    Still, on the BEXP totals I found (assuming we're talking about Normal/Hard mode here), Tormod is tapping into nearly half of the 1600 BEXP you can earn by the time you get him just to get to an inferior level. Level 14 is somehow less than the expected level I gave you. I'll spoiler this shit for you so it doesn't rock your world: [spoiler2]Tormod at level 15 was awful. Tormod at level 14 won't be any better.[/spoiler2] I KNOW RIGHT SO CRAZY

    The better question to ask is when does he become battle usable? When does he reach the point where he doesn't need to be babied? Are you implying 14 is a good level? Well, I disagree because of his 12 AS translates to him not doubling. His low Skill certainly isn't helping him guarantee attacks, but I'll let it slide. His 2 movement isn't helping him get any kill he can double, and where is the part where he starts performing profoundly better than Soren? If you feed Soren CEXP up to the point when you get Tormod (and I repeat the fact that CEXP is not comparable to BEXP because CEXP is wasted when not utilized), he'll be level 16-18 easily. Why should I be sinking half of my overall BEXP into a unit that isn't performing better at the same level and isn't taking proper advantage of his positives? I've said it once and I'll say it again: Celerity goes to waste on a Sage because Sages heal and use ranged attacks. If this was something like a bonus to a Knight or a Fighter we were speaking of here, that'd be another story entirely, but this is a unit that is meant to be on the lower spectrum supporting and ranged killing. I'm aware he's flexible, but unless the player makes a severe error every few turns, Tormod won't be needing to rush around with his 2 movement. He'll be sitting around trying to steal kills from someone else or healing someone that Soren could've easily reached as well.

    He doesn't support Boyd? Must be a base conversation I'm thinking of. Regardless, I wasn't talking about the bonuses; I meant that Titania and Oscar are better units than Soren.

    And you're trying to tell me that Ike and Titania should support, even though the bonus is awful and it means that Titania has to chain herself to Ike whenever possible? Why limit the movement of a Paladin just for Ike when Ike's already doing that to Oscar? It's bad enough he does it to him, but now you're suggesting he does it to her for a shitty support bonus? Where's the logic in that?

    There's also Reyson, and he even gives Ike ATK.

    Because Ike will be needing attack. Did you just completely ignore my point about Reyson's support being stupid or are you just trying to be convenient with what you pick and choose to acknowledge?

    In addition, how often will Ike and Soren be near each other in chapters when Ike has to be charging/getting ferried toward a seize point?

    I've never had to "ferry" Ike to a seize point, so I honestly don't know what you're talking about. But, I'll entertain this idea for a few moments.

    If Ike is getting ferried to a seize point via rescuing, that means that he's either currently rescued or currently about to fight a boss. If he's rescued, support bonuses don't mean shit. If he's about to fight a boss, when has Ike ever had issues fighting a boss? Pre-DB Ike will mob the fuck out of any boss with the Regal Sword, Post-DB Ike will mob the fuck out of any boss with the Regal Sword and Aether. Soren not being there to give a support isn't a negative for Soren at all since if Soren's not keeping up, neither is Reyson. If anything, it's just realistic that a non-mounted can't keep up when a unit is rescued by a mounted. Tormod wouldn't be able to either even though he has that GLORIOUS TWO MOVEMENT OMG.

    My point is that Tormod's stats are better than Soren and Ilyana's, not worse like you were suggesting.

    What? What? What?

    What are your comparisons and how are you able to make that claim? Maybe you could make it for Ilyana since her Speed leaves much to be desired, but Soren? Give me a good and realistic comparison for that and I swear to god I'll suck yo dick I'll show you why you're wrong. I've already shown that Tormod at 15/- with SD is still inferior to Soren at 17/- with no boosts.

    Let's say Soren promotes in the Chapter 18 base, making him 20/1 at the beginning of the chapter.

    He didn't promote in Day Breaks? I find that extremely hard to believe, but fuck it, I'll work with that.

    He won't see much action in Ch.18 since it's a very move-oriented chapter.

    "move-oriented"

    EVERY CHAPTER IS MOVE-ORIENTED YOU FUCKING MORON

    I'm sorry that was my Tourette's fucking acting up again.

    Anyway, lol. Crimea Marches starts out with four units that will approach your units when they try to go through the hallway. You'll get a turn of being blockaded until you manage to kill them, and then you'll be running again. Guess what Soren's doing while everyone else is attacking the enemies? Healing them and getting closer to the way he needs to go. And here's a funny question, how and why is Tormod keeping up with the Paladins/Fliers? You can say TWO MOVEMENT OMG, but that doesn't account for the fact that:

    a. The Paladins/Fliers start out closer to the goal than any unit by default (assuming we're trying to be optimal with deployment)

    b. The Paladins/Fliers have Canto, meaning that Tormod constantly has to not heal and not attack just so he doesn't get left behind. If he's going to make full use of 8 movement, he can't stop to do anything unless it's right by his last movement. That's not optimal, that's just silly.

    c. He can't tank so he has no place amongst the Paladins/Fliers.

    d. His enemy turn is awful and he can take one to two hits at most before he needs to use his amazing movement to retreat.

    The fact of the matter is that you keeping shilling out the fact that Soren can't keep up with the highest moving units in the game as a bad thing, but it doesn't matter. The Paladins/Fliers are tanking and going ahead of everyone. Boyd can't keep up, so I guess that means he's getting no CEXP, right? Soren doesn't need to keep up with them and I can't see why you'd ever imply that he'd need to anyway.

    I'll cap him off in the Chapter 19 base, making him 20/2. Chapter 19 is extremely short (3 turns), so he's not getting a level here either. He's going into Chapter 20 at level 20/2, and then Calill joins.

    Am I fucking crazy or did you just say that Entrusted is three turns? Explain this shit if you want me to accept it, since I see no way to power through the chapter in such a quick manner.

    Suddenly, Calill only loses 3 Skill and Resistance (both minor), while Calill wins 1 HP and Defense, 5 Luck (these are also minor), and 5 Strength. Magic and Speed are equal. I could compare Ilyana, but her stats are even worse.

    Suddenly you made an unrealistic comparison for Soren. I fail to see how Soren isn't getting higher than 20/2 based on anything you said. Maybe if you shortchange him in every regard, like funneling all of his potential heals to Mist and never letting him get a kill, then yes, Soren suxxx, but if you actually use every unit equally, you'll notice that Soren significantly out-performs Tormod and Calill when she joins. I've already explained why, so I'm not gonna bother to explain why again. You keep spouting Soren off as undeserving of anything, but you've yet to say why when most tier lists in which Soren is ranked higher than Calill are based on equal opportunity to CEXP and BEXP. You're going out of your way to fuck him over, and I want some good reasoning for why I should let you get away with that as an argument.

    Yes, the Skill and Resistance leads are minor, since Calill will not have problems hitting enemies or surviving magic attacks. How does Soren do things 'safer and more efficiently'?

    zzz how many times have I said that Soren has B Ike and C Stefan walking into Ch. 20 and Adept? Actually, you've entirely ignored the Adept advantage in itself, which I find to be funny. Please, don't call Soren vs. Calill equal when I already said that them having equal AS = Soren winning because of Adept. Calill looks great when you ignore my arguments!

    The difference between Soren vs. Calill and the other units you mentioned is that Calill will have better stats than Soren when she joins. The premotes you mentioned won't have that luxury.

    And for you to even make this argument, you have to somehow explain to me why I should believe Soren's only going to be 20/2 after at least two chapters of usage.

    Supports you would have liked to see in PoR

    in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn

    Posted · Edited by Bearissoslow

    When did 'being able to keep up' become synonymous with 'tanking on the front lines'?

    It didn't, but what else would more movement help him do? Rush the enemy hypothetically? Sages only need 6 movement since they don't rush and they have no reason to be where Paladins and Fliers are.

    The fact is that Celerity gives Tormod the flexibility to be more useful than any other Sage, letting him see more combat and letting him heal the high move units (When are Soren and Ilyana getting to C staves, unless you early promote them and neuter their offense?). This idea is why Mist > Rhys.

    Mist is better than Rhys because she has Canto, not because she has more movement. Bad comparison is bad.

    And again, I've already said that 2 movement isn't doing a great deal when you have Physics staves and long range attacking. There's no need to make rubber more flexible. I'm not negating this advantage, just that it's not that great.

    Lastly, C staves is not difficult to reach. Heal spam at every turn for the first few chapters after a Sage is promoted and you can slap a Physic in their hand in no time.

    We get so much BEXP in this game, we can raise whoever the hell we want unless we try to use too many units. Unless you can somehow prove to me that Tormod can't get enough BEXP to hold his own (hint: It's not as much as you're making it out to be), I'm not going to continue to argue with you assuming near-base level Tormod in Chapter 16.

    If it's not as much BEXP as I'm saying it is, then how much is it? How much BEXP are you going to tap into for Tormod? If you're going to negate my argument, you need to provide numbers for a decent counterargument, jsyk. You've done nothing but say "You're wrong because I said so" thus far, use some actual data to support your argument.

    I don't particularly care about supports (I don't like chaining my units to each other), but I know Ike has better people to support than Soren (Oscar, Boyd, Titania), and Stefan doesn't give Soren anything Soren wants. At least Tormod can take Calill for some decent bonuses.

    "supporting with Boyd"

    Sigh. He doesn't support with Boyd.

    "supporting with Titania"

    SIGH, the support is awful. Heaven is a trashy affinity that gives 15% hit (at A rank) and the support doesn't reach A rank for at least twenty something chapters (making it the longest to grow chapter). Guess what Darkness gives? 1.5% attack and 7.5% avoid (at A rank). Tell me why Ike wants lousy hit + low avoid over low attack + decent avoid when his hit is never an issue.

    Also, on average Tormod has more speed than Ilyana, slightly less speed than Soren but more strength than either of them (for example, he'll have more AS than Soren if they both use Elthunder). Tormod also has more defense than them, but it's not enough to edge out a significant durability advantage.

    Your point being? If Ilyana is slighted by Speed, oh darn, she has less Speed. She still has better availability and supports and doesn't need babying to the extent that Tormod does. Oh, and she has a better start in Thunder weapon levels. IMO the tradeoff is worth it, but even then, 2 movement + more Speed (when babied to an equivalent level comparable to Ilyana's) isn't that superb in itself.

    @Soren vs. Calill: First off, 20/6 for Soren in chapter 20 seems a little high, but I'm not going to bother arguing that. Instead, let's take a closer look at their stats.

    I can understand why you'd say that, but in my experience, all units promote by the end of Day Breaks, so I'd expect two chapters to give him a decent amount of experience. Mostly it was just for a comparison, but meh.

    Soren has over Calill: 2.4 Magic, 5.2 Skill, 1.6 Speed, 5.2 Resistance. Everything else is pretty similar, or Strength and Luck, which Calill wins.

    The Speed lead is negated by Calill's higher strength, letting her use Elthunder with equal AS than Soren. Also, the Skill and Resistance leads are minor, at best.

    Minor leads in Skill and Resistance? lolwut? 5.2 is significant. And by that point, Soren has 23.2% chance to activate Adept at any given time. I'm not riding Adept, but if Soren and Calill have the same AS, then Adept is only helping Soren win in that category. 1/5 happens once every five battles, meaning that he's going to double once for every five times Calill doesn't. Again, winning overall.

    So Soren has slightly more Magic, or slightly more Speed if he uses a weaker but lighter tome than Calill.

    If Soren drops to Thunder, he keeps his Speed lead but loses his Magic advantage. Oh darn. Wait, he has better Skill and Speed and Resistance. That's still a win.

    The question is: Do these 'leads' let Soren ORKO anything Calill can't? If they don't, they don't mean anything.

    I haven't been arguing that. Don't present an argument that isn't congruent to what I've been arguing. I'm saying that Soren's doing everything safer and more efficiently.

    Keep in mind that Calill has required zero resources at this point, while Soren has needed BEXP and CEXP to reach this point.

    Boyd has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Largo is superior.

    Marcia has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Tanith is superior.

    Jill has needed BEXP and CEXP to become good. By your logic, Haar is superior.

    etc.

    Granted, I get what you're saying, but the CEXP is a resource that goes to waste if not utilized, and BEXP is meant to help shorten the babying process as much as possible. Soren needing a few levels of BEXP to become good is worth the 10+ chapters where he's good. Calill having 0 resources isn't necessarily an advantage when using normal resources on a good unit thus far in the game will make that unit better than her. Besides, Soren doesn't call for nearly as much BEXP as someone like TORMOD does (lololol).

    Also notice how their durability is eerily similar, so I don't know where this 'less safely and less efficiently' stuff came from.

    Also notice how Soren has B Ike and mass amounts of Skill and Adept where Calill doesn't. I'll admit now that A Nephenee is superior to B Ike, but then Soren could use A Stefan by the time Calill gets A Nephenee to get 7.5% more avoid, giving him 25% avoid that A Nephenee doesn't compare to + 15% hit. And sorry if I'm shortchanging Calill here, but I can't imagine using Tormod or Geoffrey if you're using her, lol.

    The long and short of it is that Soren's winning here as well.

    Soren can use Staves, but Mist, Tormod and even Rhys use them better, and this game is so easy that healing isn't worth very much. It is a minor point in his favor, though.

    I wouldn't call using Staves a "minor point" considering that healing and restoring is one utility that Soren will always be able to do when Calill will never be able to. Plus, Knives offer nothing as opposed to a greatly used utility. Sure Mist and Rhys can heal, but that's also like saying "You shouldn't heal with Soren because you have a Bishop and a Valkyrie that can heal". Who cares, you can heal with Soren to raise his weapon rank when Rhys and Mist will be sitting on a fine A/S rank in staves. You can't downplay that shit advantage no matter how hard you try.

    BTW lol Tormod uses Staves in the same way, but just with two more movement. Oh golly what a significant win.

    Since Speed is basically the most important stat in the game, I think that's actually a pretty serious flaw.

    I'd rather have a Sage that isn't always doubling than one that requires mass amounts of babying. And I'll admit that it's a flaw, but it's not nearly as bad as Tormod's flaws, namely lack of decent supports and did I mention requiring mass amounts of babying?

    Tormod is a perfectly acceptable unit to use, that I frequently use in my own efficient runs. You fail to grasp that joining underlevelled in this game is not a serious handicap, and Tormod doesn't even join that late (for example, Ilyana has only 7 complete chapters on him).

    7 complete chapters of usability and CEXP > No CEXP and needing BEXP immediately.

    And it's not about joining late so much as it is joining later than Soren/Ilyana.

    This is because of the existence of BEXP. In practice Tormod requires just as much EXP (or less due to a higher base level) as Ilyana and Soren, the handicap is that because he cannot gain it through CEXP, he needs to gain it through BEXP.

    So you're saying he needs to play roughly 6-8 levels of catch-up solely through BEXP just to be mediocre? Fuck, if I want to not use Soren/Ilyana, I'll just use Calill.

    Ilyana needs to be level 20/11 to match Calill's base speed. That's not "good" to me.

    Fair enough. I don't necessarily care about Ilyana all that much, so I could be talking out my ass.

    Supports you would have liked to see in PoR

    in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn

    Posted

    "Tormod is the best sage imo"

    I wanted to stop reading there.

    "BEXP training him isn't an issue"

    You have to baby Tormod to get him anywhere, and you're suggesting that I waste valuable BEXP that could easily go to any other deserving character on Tormod alone when I could've easily had a superior mage by this point? lolwut?

    To begin with, grinding with BEXP not only heavily depletes the resource, but it also is extremely difficult to do in itself. By that point in time, I'd say you could get maybe two to three levels on BEXP alone without wasting all of it entirely. You placed higher emphasis on BEXP training instead of combat training, so by 9/-, he's barely noticeable.

    Tormod 9/-: 21.5 HP, 2.6 Strength, 11.35 Magic, 10.2 Skill, 10.35 Speed, 9.05 Luck, 4.75 Defense, 10.35 Resistance

    That's thoroughly unimpressive and not even deployable. He comes into Ch. 16 where prepromotes actually start showing up in numbers, meaning that you have to baby him relentlessly or beef him up with unreasonably high amounts of BEXP. He's not doubling anything but Knights and Bandits, which are something anyone else could handle in a safer and more efficient manner. Then you've got Day Breaks, the chapter where a majority of your units should be promoting. Let's not forget that this chapter isn't Tormod-friendly because units will bum rush the fuck out of you, leaving you little to no opportunities to weaken and baby. You'll be forced to use your best units to avoid serious damage, and Tormod cannot deliver in that regard with only one chapter of possible battle experience.

    "Celerity is just that good."

    No, it really isn't. Celerity doesn't make a unit less frail or stronger, it just makes them better at getting somewhere faster. This is Path of Paladins Radiance, the game with some of the most utilizable Paladins in the series. You have no reason to need a frail unit to move better when he's a ranged unit that wants to attack from afar anyway. At least the case for Astrid can be made because she joins frail and remains frail, but Paragon is such a great ability that it makes her workable. With Tormod, it just doesn't even work for him.

    Sorry for side tracking the Calill debate but holy shit Tormod is an awful unit. I know it's your opinion but your reasoning is just wrong.

    As for Calill, you've overrating what it means to 0RKO. She's 0RKOing most units, but barely better than Tormod at the same level. You might say that she's doing better than Ilyana, but Ilyana is walking in with supports from both Gatrie (lolheaven) and Zihark/Mia, something Calill doesn't get until at least Ch. 21. Let's not forget Soren, who will have deliciously amazing stats when levelled and B Ike to ride on as well. She's doing a job that anyone can do in a less efficient way than either of the two better sages that have great availability.

    Lastly, you mention weapon ranks, but who honestly cares about having anything above D rank when Thunder magic is probably the only magic you'll ever need? I'm not trying to negate her advantage, which she does have, it's just kind of irrelevant and unimportant. It's sort of like giving Pent credit for starting with A rank with Louise. That's cool and all, but it's just not that important since no one ever uses Louise and it more or less traps him into it. Calill only really needs to be able to use Elwind and Elfire since most people will be using Elthunder. It's still a positive for her, just not nearly as grand of one as you make it out to be.

    TL;DR: Use Calill if you're too lazy to use Soren/Ilyana even though they're better then yeah sure Calill is great.

    Supports you would have liked to see in PoR

    in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn

    Posted · Edited by Bearissoslow

    Good is a comparative term. You can't have good without bad. Soren is a far better Sage when levelled, albeit some people would bitch about leveling him. Ilyana is a good Sage as well, only lacking in Speed. Tormod... is awful and should never be used unless you're lolgay for Celerity and shitty Est-esque units. Calill is stuck with Knives instead of Staves, which is just a putridly bad option, and her only real advantages are that she starts out with good weapon ranks + Nihil. Other than that, she's pretty much a crappy pre-promote with crappy availability.

    She's currently second worst. That's not "good" to me.

    (FE7) Tactician Stars Draft

    in Fire Emblem Drafts

    Posted · Edited by Bearissoslow

    The idea of ranked running HHM is extremely off-putting. It'd be a pain in the ass and I'd probably get last. I'd literally be up for any other type of draft, but if you can't find a last participant, I'll fill up your hole.

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