[Edelgard + Lelouch: The Cost Of Ideals]

48 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'm not sure how much of a 'stranglehold' it really is. It sounds like the initial plan may have been to start the shadow war against them immediately once she got the throne versus after the Church is dealt with, if allying with them wasn't the plan from the start (and the fact that she needed coaxing suggests that this was indeed her plan if not for Hubert's interference). It's clearly not the smarter, more strategic plan, but that's mostly because the Church is the bigger threat.

Euh, I'd say the initial plan was 'tackle the biggest monster/opponent', aka the Church. The only reason she entertains the idea of going at it  by crushing Mole Men is because of having Byleth on her side influenced her, and talk with Hubert or not, she still had to bow to strategic imperatives, aka keep the Mole Men for later. She was very much going for the bigger threat on the strategical plan in her initial plans, aka routes other than Crimson Flower.

[Edelgard + Lelouch: The Cost Of Ideals]

35 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The difference between our viewpoints is that I'm willing to assign responsibility to Edelgard for the choice to ally with the Agarthans and use their resources, even if they're doing things she does not personally approve of. I don't think being distressed that Agarthans are doing Agarthan things is enough to absolve her of that responsibility; she knows better than anyone what they are and what they're capable of and willing to do.

It's a strategic choice, but it comes with consequences and definitely puts her more in the morally gray column than you seem comfortable with.  

 

You know, nothing here is incompatible with the idea that the Mole Men have taken control of the Empire, and that her rise to power is met with their approval. She could have chosen tattling to the Church, to other allies... Just because they have the sort of stranglehold which making chosing them the 'better' alternative doesn't invalidate free wil, absolve her of all responsibilityl, grey stances and the likes.

[Why Edelgard von Hresvelg is the most hated girl?]

Just now, twilitfalchion said:

Perhaps, instead of allying herself with TWSITD and the Death Knight, she could have forged alliances with her fellow lords and their respective nations to ultimately gain their assistance in purging her country of the corruption she was fighting against, while also working to expose the corruption within the Church of Seiros. I'm not saying there is an easy solution to such a complex issue, or that it is possible to achieve a solution without bloodshed. War will never be truly free of innocent lives being taken (except in rare instances like the Cold War), but Edelgard could have chosen an option that did not involve antagonizing individuals who most likely would have aided her if she had sought them out and exacerbating what would have already been a violent conflict.

 

Okay, leaving aside the bolded part, which is so delusional it hurts something fierce... That could be why Solon attacked Remire, and Monikronya glued herself to Edelgard. The Mole Men certainly realized Edelgard had no reason to be loyal to them, so they monitored her closely, because you don't just leave your big 'superweaon' lying around unsupervised after creating it, precisely to make sure she didn't get fancy ideas... While making sure she was associated to enough messes (Remire, Monikronya...) that this possibility was shattered

[Why Edelgard von Hresvelg is the most hated girl?]

15 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

Since I gave a response to a similar question on another thread, I'll just copy/paste with a few extra thoughts. This comment was about both Rhea and Edelgard, but my opinion still stands.

"For me, I can’t empathize with either Rhea or Edelgard because I believe, as an old teacher of mine used to say: 'It is never right to do wrong to do right.' Rhea hoping that Byleth would merge with Sothis to bring her mother back was incredibly selfish, and Rhea’s totalitarian mindset over the Church of Seiros was very similar to the Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages in its eradication of any heretics or opponents. It’s the same with Edelgard, who, in her quest for power, chose to disregard innocent human lives as secondary to her quest to be the Emperor. Both of these individuals had good intentions at best, but their amoral execution of these objectives destroyed any credibility they might have had, in my opinion. There’s no justice in either of their actions, only the blatant expression of their selfish motivations. "

I certainly don't hate Edelgard, but I can't sympathize with her as easily because of how she went about effecting her reforms on Fodlan. Considering she endured the same kind of tragic, abhorrent Crest-related experimentation that Lysithea did (no doubt shortening her life as well), it is no surprise that she set out to eliminate the social customs concerning Crests. However, sacrificing the lives of the innocent was definitely not the way to go. In several ways, both Dimitri and Edelgard are quite similar (both being characters with glaring flaws and tragic pasts). But way before Dimitri was doing his feral thing during the timeskip (committing atrocities of his own), Edelgard had been working behind the scenes to ensure that she would become Emperor (Empress?) Edelgard, using shady characters like TWSITD and the Death Knight, all the while masquerading as the Flame Emperor. She even orchestrated the bandit raid at the beginning of the game to eliminate both Dimitri and Claude just so she would have lessened opposition as she ascended to power. Again, I don't hate her, and I actually think she's a very well-written character, but she falls more into the category of anti-hero rather than hero/protagonist because her totalitarian methods directly contradict her philosophy of freedom for all of Fodlan.

 

While I agree with the contestation of Rhea's iron grip on the Church and through it Fodlan, and will agree that Edelgard methods are bloody to say the least, I also find this answer... Both a bit naive and off-topic.

Off-topic because 'totalitarisms' are very much a XXth century thing, use of the term for realities of the medieval period is a very reducing thing, trying to force XXth century beliefs for times where they just don't have the same relevance, if at all. People speaking of dictature for these times... tyranny can definitely exist in these times, but the sort of dictatures people imagine when using these words just don't exist in these times, so it makes the use of these terms seem useless to me here.

And naive because... I am sorry for your teacher, because it would be nice if the world ran on that logic, reality is a vicious thing, so vicious in fact who makes the Lannisters Freys and Boltons of Song of Ice and Fire looks like freaking choir boys. To quote some names, look closely at Peter the Great of Russia, Augustus during the civil war, or Khosrau I, one of the last, if not the last, great shah of the Sassanid Empire before the Muslim conquest. Three great men, who all did right things for their countries for their time... And Almighty Gygax, these things came with truckloads of body. Because History does care more for success or failure than good or evil at the end, and success buries many evils. It should not be that way in a fair world, but...

Counter-couping the Seven to take back the Empire, although it is under the Mole Men's ""alliance"" (let's be clear, these ducktards are the ones with the pants in the relationship, from Day One), and these assassinations attempts? Nasty stuff, but flowers and sunshine compared to the sort of things History has in store, and it will remain a mystery to know how much of that was Mole Men's orders, or personal maneuvering, even if either explanations burn the same bridges. And wars have been launched for far less worthy reasons than the ones she uses here. And to be frank, I think the Mole Men's diktats here are as much to balem than any desire to unify Fodlan. She had to offer something to Bergliez and Hevring for them to switch sides, and she couldn't offer them more within Adrestia's limits than what Aegir had already given to them. The cards here are ugly, unsavory... But sometimes they are the only ones you have, and even inaction here means leaving the misery to fester more (And frankly, even if you remove Edelgard and her actions, I don't give many years to Fodlan before internal collapse and wars ruin the continent).

Heck, even Rhea, for all the bodies shaping a continent through use of a monotheistic religion imply (heresies, control of knowledge, while the Mole Men are rocking the boat in the shadows), got (seemingly) six centuries of a peace to show for it, which does represent an exceptional length of time by most human standards (look in History for places wihch knew six centuries of general peace in histiry on the scale of a continent. They are not that many). Her failure lies more in being unable to adapt to changing times, unable to spot the Mole Men and their work, and unable to provide another solution to the problems other than 'Mommy Will Fix Everything' (despite excellent earlier attempts like the Officiers Academy, whose only real flaw was coming too late), and her unwillingness to cede this power to another than Mommy.

 

Short form, I hate neither of them. I think Rhea's rule has been good for a long time, but has now failed and is overdue for a change in the face of her own near-total unwillingness to change personaly, and think that what Edelgard wants to build deserves to exist, or at least to be given a shot.

 

(Dunno why, but something about Three Houses makes me wants to compare it to Real Life History far more than most of the other fantasy games I played. Definitely counting that one in the 'pro' part of the game's review though.)

[Real-World Mythology/References in 3H]

 

7 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

 

Cichol- Probably Azure Dragon

Cethleann- Probably White Tiger

 

Maybe rather the reverse? If I remember the Crest Items right, Cichol is the one associated with Earth, so Tiger could make more sense (okay, White Tiger actually goes with Metal)... And further reading associates the White TIger with West, so possible case for that.

 

Speaking of China, if a comparation with the Three Kingdoms would have to be made... Which one is which one? Adrestia looks like Wei by virtue of being the one born of the remnants of the old empire (the Cao clan was the one with the last Han's custody), and Edelgard's willingness for ruthlessness matches Cao Cao's ('I would prefer to betray the world than have the world betray me'). Adrestia is also a bit too big and powerful to be the equivalent of Shu, despite the fact its king, Liu Bei, was claiming to be a Han descendant himself. Any thought on the other two kingdoms? I do think Shu fits Leicester in some way (a leader who is also an... adventurer of dubious origins, and I say that while being a big Liu Bei and Shu fan), leaving Wu with Faerghus.

[Real-World Mythology/References in 3H]

Getting this thread out because I just thought about something recently, especially after the interviews comparing Fodlan to China during the Three Kingdoms period.

 

So far, one of the main political entities Adrestia has been compared to was the Holy Roman Empire, with the names used inside the country, the relationship emperor/archbishop, the high nobility families... But I think it can be compared to another empire.

Regarding Edelgard's theoreticaly meritocratic society, most people don't really see equivalents in the real world. But there is one empire who professed recruitment of elites by merit, using exams to sort out the ones deserving posts in the administrations. This system was created in the VIIth century (Sui and Tang dynasty), with inspiration dating back to earlier dynasties of that empire ruling from the IInd century BC to the 2nd century AD (Han dynasty). This system knew its highs and lows, but endured through several imperial dynasties, inspired neighbouring countries to imitate that system (Vietnam, Korea)... sometimes after military occupation by said empire, for more than a millenium: the imperial exams and mandarins system of Imperial China.

And it goes further. Ministers as hereditary families? A thing when the system was breaking down and scholars formed their own clans and cliques. Puppet emperor cotrolled by its court? When it was not barbarian invasions or ambitious warlords (and, welp, if you interpret Fodlan as China, its fracturing echoes that too), that was one of China's big pains in the butt.

Heck, Fodlan's isolationism is also fairly consistant with most Chinese empires' attitude towards outsiders, down to 'barbarian' invasions, and the world technology moving up around them.

Welp, I mean, since Fire Emblem looks like a western 'verse, you compare it to Europe, and well the shoe can fit, with Adrestia as the HRE or Byzantine Empire, Leicester as Renaissance Italy as a mess of multiple political identities, and a touch of Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania both as an example of a country controlled by its nobility with a nominal at best king, and one wasting away without a central authority, or Faerghus as France for the parallels to chivalry, 'eldest daughter of the Church', the assemblies instuted by Dimitri in the AM eilogues which could be tied to the first medieval communes, or the names of the countries, towns, characters... Just how many possible references to Asian situations, or heck, anywhere else in the world, if that's to be found, get missed by people playing the games?

[Crests Did Nothing Wrong]

32 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

While there are far more nobles of the Empire without known Crests, we have to remember that there were other noble houses with Crests. Hanneman came from a family with the same Crests as Varley, and Mercedes's family came from the Empire with the Crest of Lamine, and attained by House Bartels, which attained Crests to expand their influence.

 

And someone somewhere had to have that Crest of Macuil for it to be known and allow House Nuvelle to hide their Crest of Noa.

 

33 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And Adrestia has Crestless families that hold quite significant power, there's still the case of how there are more influential houses with Crests. I mean, the emperor needs to have a Crest, hence why Ionius needed to have multiple consorts.

 

And this is why his children have been carved up like raw burger by the Mole Men for Crest Implantation. Well, the Mole Men wanted Nemesis 2.0, Aegir and his complices wanted an emperor with a Major Crest.

 

And there is no telling if other members of the families not bolded above have a few members with Crests or not.

And honestly, odds are the Crests are way more scattered amongst the noble families than it looks like. Intermarriage had to happen several times in 1100 years, plenty of times for other bloodlines to appear (note that House Riegan's current incarnation is seen as a cadet branch of Blaydidd). The Relics are the hard limited toys here, not the Crests.

[The state of the world after the war]

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the Alliance should be pretty smooth sailing for Edelgard. Its loosely knit so none of the lords have enough powers to defy her and with Ordelia, Riegan and possibly Daphnell all gone there's enough land for Edelgard to give to loyal cronies. Also the newly released interview stated that culturally the Alliance resembles and seeks to emulate the empire, meaning they might fall in line relatively quickly.  So I'll think she'll install some new leaders in those vacant  region and just administers the place as another imperial province. Goneril would be a bit of an exception. She'd likely treat Holst like she does count Bergliez, giving him a lot of leeway because he really is the best man for the job. 

 

I dunno if Count Bergliez's position after the war (or any of the Seven for that matter) would be that nice and cosy. I mean, he is kept from the big center of power Garreg Mach represented during the war, and while the assignement  inside the Alliance is prestigious, and could be an occasion to build up power, it is also an assignement keeping him busy (henceforth not plotting), and far away from the Empire and Garreg Mach (centers of power). It smells like the guy might being set up for a slow defanging here, until Capsar takes up his place as Minister of Military Affairs (which he can only do if Daddy is ousted from office).

 

After all, Bergliez remains an ex-Seven, and represents a last holdout of old nobility by existing and keeping his office. And while the guy looked nice enough to surrender in other routes, Constance's apparition on the board and her backstory tells that he left an ex-Ionius Loyalists house and their subject to die to have them out of the way of the Seven (commander of the Empire armies after all, the only way that plan to erase House Nuvelle could be implemented is with his assent). Makes me wonder about the Sevens' actual wherabouts after the war.

[What Edelgard means to me…]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And I think the very fact that she was able to launch a direct war against the church means defying the church in other ways is evidently possible.

 

. . .

Politics, and life in general, doesn't exactly always work on the 'If I can get away with X thing, I can get away with lesser thing x'. Shocking, I know. But you seem to (willfully) forget that war isn't just a defiance: it's also the biggest way of answering these defiances. Or you're telling me that because I can, I dunno, kill a cop and flee while all the cops near to me (namely, the one I kiilled) cannot stop me, I can get away with speeding. Except it doesn't work like that. And when I do both, I don't 'get away' with speeding, it only fades into the background because guess what, I killed a cop. Not that lesser offenses won't find their use against me (see Al Capone).

When Edelgard launches her offensive a measly two weeks after the war declaration, heck by doing that war declaration, she pretty much sidesteps the whole diplomatic process which would have led to that point, she doesn't just magically get away with it, she just have thrown a far bigger rock in the pound, so no one is in position of going after her for throwing the smaller rocks before.

War would have been a possible sanction, but I'm sure Rhea would have prefffered in that case that it was one where she could condamn Edelgard as an heretic turning her back on the Goddess in front of the wider population of Adrestia, getting Imperial nobles to side with her for more or less interested motives, and maybe even foreign powers answering the defiance to Fodlan's supreme moral authority.

What Edelgard did here was throwing first punch in such a violent and quick ways that it deprived the Church of any leveraging on Imperial society before the assault on Not!Vatican, striking before anything could be done against her.  After that, either Rhea is out and the Church's political's authority and leverage is pretty much shattered, or Rhea going more and more in what I will dub 'Seiros Mode' will sap what influence she has left all by herself, as evidenced by the regular trickle of Church and Knights deserters you see in CF. And you'll notice that even in this scenario, mentions are made of civilian unrest in face of the war with the Church within Adrestia. Yes, it gets under control after the five years,  but it means the influence and the potential of using it was there. Edelgard just stroke before it could be leveraged.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

That the church would take the relic by force is conjecture. What is not conjecture is that the church believes it belongs to them by virtue of them being the Church. The empire believes it belongs to them because they received it from Dagda. The Church's claim to ownership does not take precedent over the empires claim to ownership. The Church has to send a representative to try and negotiate them giving it to the church. They cannot, and do not, simply take it by force. The empire knows the church wants it and is prepared to use it to exert influence over the church. Duke Gerth gives it up willingly however, even though he knows that's not in the empire's best interests. That's what happens. Saying if that didn't happen the church would have send knights to mug an imperial duke is fanfiction.

 

I was actually thinking about increased diplomatic pressures, in whatever shape the Church could think about. You were the one who made the jump from 'Leveraging guilt and a big favor' to 'Mugging' without thinking of any possible intermediary step. Talk about a lack of imagination.

 

[What Edelgard means to me…]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

But that's exactly what Edelgard did do. And then she decided to kill people on top of it.

 

Okay, one more time, slowly: She flaunted these rules right before launching her war. That means the consequences of this defiance of traditions and the big morale influence of the continent kinda faded away in the background because of the outright war against said big morale influence. I hope there are not too many big words for you here.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

They didn't take that relic by force. They sent Constance to negotiate it and when they arrived the duke was under attack by demonic beasts made by the Agarthans. He handed it over willingly afterwards in appreciation. In fact that whole situation is an excellent example of how the Church can't simply take what they want. The whole reason they send Constance is because they believe she can get it diplomatically with her connections. The paralogue makes it very clear that the Empire can hold onto the relic if it wishes.

 

No, it makes it clear that Constance was the easier option, and was only that easy thanks to the Mole Men. Sylvain's support with Byleth and this paralogues already show that the Church considers the Relics as under its juridiction to some degree. And Sylvain said it was a close thing for the Gautiers, despite being able to wield the Lance of Ruin. An Aubin's Relic Gerth couldn't use? He wouldn't have had this excuse, so I guess harsher and harsher pressure would have come if the 'carrot option' failed. Also, if the Church was such a powerless useless thing, why would this Relic be such a valuable bargaining tool exactly? Why waste on an organization as irrelevant as the one you describe?

[What Edelgard means to me…]

10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Ah. Thanks. I agree; that does indicate that he's aware of her plans.

 

The very fact the archbishop is so snubbed is a dead giveaway. Drastic breaks of traditions old enough to be stronger than laws, said breaking being barely covered by technicalities (if it even is), rarely foreshadow nice times.

[What Edelgard means to me…]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

By 

A) Receiving money from willing donors

B) Having an annual, prepared, mock battle 

C) Saving imperial citizens from a massacre

D) The pope expecting an invitation to the coronation.

These are all things the empire can, if they choose, stop (and Edelgard explicitly does in one case). The church has no authority to enforce these things (well it's always they're own choice to accept donations, but the empire could outlaw donating to the church). The empire and the church are interacting as soverign entities. They both hold sway and influence over each other. That's how foreign relations work.

 

With all the diplomacy I can muster, you grasp on history is... Okay, I can't be nice, you just fail history, and politics, forever.

 

First for the thing which staerted it all, Southern Church isn't a different religion, it's a political branch, aka an archbishop managing church in that place for the pope. When they are ousted, no difference in creed pops up, no actual, in-depth change happen in the way faith is carried out by people: to continue my analogy, all of them are still Catholics, they still answer to the pope. France secured the right to name the bishops in the kingdom for the royal power in the 13-14th centuries, and I dare you to say it was the end of any sway the Catholic Church wold have within the country. This is the sort of conflict the Empire has with the Church of Seiros. But Rhea/the pope is still there, there is still a relationship. They're still all following the same creed. The morale and social influence religion holds within a country, especially a medieval one, is still there. No new religion has been created here like in your Henry VIII example.

And from that point:

A) Stop all individual faithfuls of doing such a thing. In the equivalent of the medieval times. Forget the Mole Men, yours is a far bloodier and nastier war.

B) Refuse to collaborate with Fodlan's premier academy, fonded in the name of assuring security of the whole continent, throwing a massive diplomatic crisis along the way. Oh, and refusing a 'request' of the continent's religion. Are you even thinking about the consequences of the actions you 'stop'?

C) Knights can go wherever they want in Foldan as long as it is defined as Church business or that they are asked for. Projection of military strength like that is a massive Big Deal, you don't just say 'No' without consequences.

D) Okay, now I know you are trolling. Pope 'invited' to a coronation? That's usually called a sacre, it is the sort of things which show people the sovereign has this thing called the 'divine right to rule'. In Europe? Only one ducker had the pope doing that for him. The Holy Roman Emperor. Again, Big Deal. As in, Casus  Belli Big Deal, because ditching the pope/archbishop is an as good as any way to demonstrate, and a pretty spectacular one actually, that you deny their authority. Which usually one of the last steps before this nasty thing called war. Remind me when Edelgard ditches this sacre thing already in the chronology?

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

6 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

 

The mediaeval church banned autopsies because human beings are made in god's image and their bodies should be respected after death. I can't believe Rhea had the same reason. Honestly having the church of Seiros ban autopsies makes no sense either, especially since Hanneman has all these tools for reading people's crests and stuff. 

 

I think you're touching at one of the very reasons Rhea don't want autopsies, beyond the justification given in the text of 'plebs infringing on Faith Magic and the Church's monopoly on healing' with the mention of Hanneman: true nature of Crests and Relics. I don't think everyone was nice enough to self-censure themselves once they learnt too much like that monk analyzing Relics in the Shadow Library, so cutting off research on that front seems logic (and attracting erudites at Garreg Mach by being the big learning center allows to know how close they are of uncomfortable truth... preferably when they can be convinced/coerced into silence, defintively or not, and for instance join the crews making these Golems the Church use). Identifying the Crests like they do is no biggie, but digging deeper...

And yes Hanneman create his tools in his endings... After the war which, no matter the outcome broke the Church as it was, and Rhea's style for ruling.

And the desecration angle is brought up here too amongst the list of reasons for the interdiction.

 

6 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

Because political leaders always have an eye to the main advantage. If they can overthrow Rhea and replace her with someone less effective, which means more power for them, they'll do it. It's funny how despite the fact that she's ruled Fodlan with a so-called iron fist for a millenium, the religious spirit really doesn't run very deep in many of the elite. It's because they're human beings and they care about power and status. 

 

I was actually refering to the civilian population in general here, not just the nobles Edelgard already purged in her counter-coup. Elites will follow power, yes, but faith can still push pretty massive movements amongst masses: a later example than medieval times, but French Revolution, a time when the Catholic Church had lost the bigger part of its political power and the revolutionary governments were making big moves against said Church? Still sparked an intense guerilla who lasted for years, despite how bloody and savage repression was.

At a time when faith held a greater place in the common folk's heart (and in RL, Church could remove HRE emperors if it pushed hard enough), and when it could be used as a rallying flag for resistants to Edelgard's counter-coup really easy... There is a pregnant lack of such reaction described in the game, beyond mentions of unrest having quited down in Crimson Flower.

 

20 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

It makes zero sense that the church or anybody else would encourage starvation, which is what happens when you deliberately "withold agricultural techniques".  On the other hand, it does make sense that the church would take credit for the land's fertility. It would make sense if the church unveiled these mysterious agricultural techniques and said, "Look, more gifts from the goddess". Starving desperate people will rise up and rebel. Nobody wants that. 

 

Yes, probably that. Still working for a monopole on knowledge heavily favoring them here though. Politics 101, but still not good news for society at large.

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

14 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

I mean if we think about it for 20 seconds. There’s no actual in game evidence at all Rhea held back humanity at all zero. Adrestia the country that doesn’t even have heroes relics like the other two. According to Shamir completely destroyed Dagda. There’s books litterally every where as well. That list was clearly one of the fake ones Linhardt was talking about.

 

Well, before that list, you had Claude's supports with Lorenz and Leonie, both of them started with his reflexions on agricultures. Both times, he is all about fertility not beign the result of the Goddess' blessings, and both of the times he get a 'Weird idea, dude' answer from Leonie and Lorenz. And both of them add 'Careful dude, I'll keep mum about it, but don't let the Church hear you say things like that'. Not exactly a good sign.

And several of the tech banned in that book fall in line with stuff that Real Life Church banned/fought. Telescopes? Copernic himself could have avoided persecutions, but his ideas didn't, ask Gallileo. Printing? Church was very much interested in limiting circulation of knowledges deemed unsafe (Index). Autopsy? There was a reason Renaissance humanists had to go the grave robbers way to get that done. And oil, I guess as a reference to Real Life now. So that looks like legit to me. And I would like to know what Linhardt meant by 'forgeries' too.

 

24 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Half the seven and the Kingdom half that worked with the slithers don’t even have crests.

 

You don't know that. Granted, I don't know if they had Crests either, but beyond a vassal like Rowe, and Gerth, we don't get to see the people you're talking about here. Crests are not limited to only one bloodline (See Bernadetta and Hanneman sharing one, or Lysitheia and Catherine. Or whoever actually possess the Macuil bloodline...).

 

27 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Heck there is even a slither mage in Sylvain and Raphaels paralogue. Implying Miklan and Lorenz dad where being manipulated by them as well.

 

They are marked as standard Dark Mages, like the ones you can see at Tailtean on Dimitri's side in CF. Mole Men are always getting a special mention when they are here.

 

29 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

The game never actually shows the church being in the wrong ever.

 

Debatable. I usually don't look fondly on a structure which loses control of its branches so badly they make their own power moves, leading to nasty bloody conflicts, assassinations... And I doubt the Church is always squeaky clean (supports between Hubert and Shamir at least show they have assassins. People like that are rarely used for morally outstanding stuff).

Tech withholding is also not done without shedding quite the amount of blood long-term, without talking about writing history with a scalpel, or the sorts of things which would come with ruling a monotheistic religion, like squashing heresy.

The whole thing also distills quite the racism with the Crests creating the idea that Fodlani are a 'Chosen people', henceforth superior to unchosen people. When it doesn't give nobles a divine mandate to rule which twisted them into corrupt assholes long-term. And while doing jack shit to reverse the tendance until it is too late for doing so peacefully.

And there is 'deal with culprit decisively' and 'butcher them so fast you create an image of uncompromising assholes who kill first while never wondering about this weird concept called 'asking questions. Rhea does much of the latter, and bad news, it pretty much always is.

And if you were doing things so right, why is half the continent willing to revolt against you? During the equivalent of medieval times, aka a time when religious authorities could easily trump political leaders?

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

21 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

Maybe the best thing to do would be to wait for Crests to die out naturally? Of course I understand why Edelgard didn't feel able to do that.

 

Sweet Philemon, no! It has been over a millenium now. I take it the idea of 'Crests=Divine Favor' has been drilled in almost everyone in Fodlan. Meaning that if/when they disappear, the peasants would notice, look at the abuses the nobles are committing everyday, and make the following reasoning: 'Nobles have lost the Goddess' favor. Why should we keep listening to these pricks?'.

Mass revolts would be happening everywhere, and be an open bar for the Mole Men (which can use their knowledge to create Crest Bearers to craft 'new chosen' to 'lead the 'revolutions'). Or any foreign power kept at bay by now useless Relics. Fodlan would collapse, real bad. And the Church would probably seen as guilty by association, even  if Rhea can keep bestowing Crests of Seiros (cardinals and high ranks), and maybe Cethleann and Cichol ones if she can fast talk Seteth and Flaynn into it. But that's it.

Better to reduce their importance while they're here, rather than when the crisis happen.

 

22 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

I'm actually not a Rhea apologist. She has plenty to atone for. But laying all the blame for a society dominated by Crest-obsessed nobles at her door alone seems unfair. It could never have happened if humans weren't hungry for power and status. Like I said, she didn't invent the Crest system; it was forced on her in an arms race by her enemies. 

 

Well yes, the nobles screwed the pooch quite bad, with Mole Men assistance. But Rhea created the playground which allowed them to do so, and failed to enforce rules to keep this from happening. That's why she's getting a fair share of the blame.

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

As far as the nations are concerned the Alliance actually comes off fairly well. Its relatively peaceful and stable compared to the other country and doesn't seem to have any grand ambitions against the other nations. Even their biggest flaw, the constant infighting is pretty tame. Despite their bickering the houses all join forces to defend their border and when the Alliance is fractured during wartime the worst they do is bicker and paralyze each other rather then resorting to violence. Even Count Gloucester, the worst ruler the Alliance has to offer seems relatively tame as far as evil nobles go. He may feed merchants to his giant wolves but he's not plotting genocide or torturing his family members. 

 

Euh, with all due respect, stable nothing. Acheron is but the smallest part of the problem, despite the fact the text implies he does this shit with depressing regularity with no lasting consequences. The reason why Gloucester couldn't stop him was because his troops were likely too busy (or dead, if you did that paralogue I guess) butchering and ransacking merchant caravans for the cardinal sin of following ducking trade routes( Derdriu is a trade port, moron, it is a big part of why the trade route can even exist, moron!). And Rahpael's parents' fate shows he has been playing this sort of games for years. Not a good sign, especially since it implies he can do it for worst when he is already doing it for such petty reasons. And it looks like he was trying pretty hard to get dirt on Claude to get him ousted so he could seize power. Politics, but blatant lack of respect for central authority, even nominal one? Not Good.

And the Alliance structure? Duck, I am heavily reminded of the Polish Commonwealth, or Renaissance Italia. Neither of them an advantageous comparaison. Ordelia's clusterfuck with Hrym and the Empire hints at a lack of unity, where everyone does as they desire, and leave other to burn. Not best sign either. Hilda and Cyril's paralogue tell me Holst couldn't trust his peers in the Alliance for reinforcements, so he went to his sister/the Church for it. Again, not the sign of a healthy intern policy if the Alliance can't be bothered supporting his defense of Almyra in a satisfactory way.

And Almighty Gygax Alois and Shamir's paralogue. Deidriu, Riegan's capital, nominal capital of the Alliance. Their seat of power, big moneymaker, likely biggest source of recruits by virtue of being their biggest town... And they can't defend it against ducking pirates, or get/beg/pressure peers within the Alliance to get help. And let me tell you, both as someone studying history and... a 4X player (CKII, EU...), when a state can't defend its own capital against freaking bandits,  said state is generally barely half a step removed from becoming an open bar for its neighbors. There were reasons for Italy becoming one of the Renaissance's big battlefields, and for Poland going from Eastern Europe's top dog to a giant cake to be shared between Austria, Prussia and Russia.

And the Shadow Library's report it took a Claude-shaped miracle to not get the country imploding in civil war. Gonna guess the Mole Men wwanted to start their war here. Bloody quagmire of potentially shifting alliances calling for foreign support is a casus belli factory.

 

 

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Kingdom comes off as the worst. None of the other nations engage in senseless genocide and their crest obsessed in worse then the other nation. Its nobles are all either sniveling cowards or good people who let a toxic knight code force them into wrong priorities. Among the evil nobles Kleiman seems particularly terrible due to being the architect of the genocide and apparently getting away with it completely. 

 

Heck, it's even worst. The more or less good people with toxic code you mentioned (less=Gautier, more=Fraldarius)? They can't even jugulate banditry within their own territories, even with the lords dirtying their hands (Felix and Sylvain's paralogues). And that's suppose to be the less worst places of the Kingdom. Food for thoughts, and not nice ones.

Worst, for all the boasting about chivalry, royal authority means nothing to these guys. Be it with ignoring Dimitri during Duscur, or Dedue's paralogue. And there is the fact that barring a Seiros Mode!Rhea and Knights of Seiros-seized miracle, Cornelia and the Mole Men can just kill the regent, accuse Dimitri, have him executed (even if that faield), seize half of the country to sell out, and no one are able to stop them until the deed is done. Heck, Cornelia can pay herself the luxury of telling the whole plot to a known enemy and get away with it. Talk about a country gone to the dogs.

 

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Empire is somewhere in the middle. Its got its fair share of monsters but once they become the antagonist they fight for a good cause and they lack the war crime that most antagonistic nations engage in. Their nobles are a mixed bag but I wouldn't say they are dominated by a corrupt nobility. Varley and Aegir are terrible but Duke Gerth seems to be a fine chap and count Bergliez gets depicted as an honorable man, while nothing positive or negative is really said about Linhardt's father. The empire seems unusually laid back on the issue of crest since most of their leading ministries are monopolized by families who do not have crests. 

 

So 'laid back' about it they okayed Edelgard and her siblings being carved up like raw burger in the name of having an emperor with a major Crest, which is also why Ionius was having so many children, or Hanneman's sister ended on rape duty for Crest babies until her death. And I think I remember Dorothea may be a noble's bastard child, and that they checked her for Crest before throwing her away in the streets. And I didn't even get to the mess around Mercedes and Jeritza yet. And Caspar being Crestless doesn't mean his father/sibling don't have one (unless you have supports telling me they are indeed Crestless). And with Aegir, Varley, Hevring, at least, it's still a sizeable portion of the elites with Crests. And who knows what family is sporting Macuil's Crest. Yup, 'laid back about the issue of Crests'.

They also still launched that coup, and no power centrallization isn't an evil, but a recurring struggle of medieval societies (and others) between the central power and the elites (example of place where both sides of the equation could go corrupt: Chinese Empires, where it was a toss up, and often a team-work, between regional governors and corrupt court officials to ruin the empires). Their support of Edelgard also remains tied to a war of conquest (because they certainly sold Aegir out for her beautiful eyes or something like that), so they are quite... ambitious too.

And Sothis/Naga/Gygax only knows what the Mole Men are doing inside Adrestia (Tharundel and the paralogue he creates for Lysitheia and Ferdinand doesn't inspire me good feels. Constance and Yuri's not much either). Oh, and they all let House Nuvelle be casually slaughtered with their subjects by Brigid and Dagda for the crime of being Ionius loyalists.

 

 

Heck, all of it is why I think the war was inevitable, and in some way needed. Fodlan had gone to dogs badly, the 'peace' was a big nasty bloody joke with the intern issues plaguing each country, Rhea's whole edifice was one windy day away from total collapse, and the rot so firmly installed that peaceful reformers could be flushed out without problems by corrupt elites. At this point, something else was direly needed to clean up the house.

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Because it's undeniable useful to have an educated population. It just wasn't as useful before there were books for an educated population to read and there were a tonne of necessary jobs that didn't require an educated population (or rather didn't require a general education, everyone was educated to some extent on the subject in industry in which they had to work).

 

Euuuuuuh... You might look at what happened to people like Gallileo, and where the term 'Index' comes from exactly. Unfortunately, attempts to control the knowledge of the population in the name of the ruling powers' interest isn't an invention from modern society. Heck, one of the big names of the Enlightnement/Lumières period, Voltaire? The guy was actually very much of the opinion that education of the masses was a wasted, even dangerous, effort. His actual thing was constitutional monarchy like in Engmand.

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Of course I'm not saying it's 100% (otherwise development would be uniform everywhere), but if we look at things backwards and ask the question, will society ever make meaningful changes if we take away the existence of the technology. If not for the printing press (imagine it is somehow scientifically impossible) would humanity have ever had a majority literate and educated society merely via social progress?

((Scientifically impossible? Nah. Unless too complex for the languages using it, or forbidden for reasons by authorities (Woops, look at what the Church of Seiros did in-game), I can't see it not happening at all.))

Not that it is the ultimate no-no stopping culture development if it isn't present. Asian civilizations managed rather correctly it seems, and were quite demanding in educated people for making their society work long before Westerners did it. For a long while, China was the high tech place of the world, with wonders like paper (important too for spreading books), stirrups, gunpowder to name a few... It would have been slow and complex to go further, but I don't think it would be outright impossible.

 

However, while the mobile printing made this one possible on the scale of today, it still took quite a few centuries for the societies to evolve enough to reach the point of the society you describe. Gutenberg worked it out in 1450, but it wasn't until the XIXth that mentalities, society, and, admittedly, the tech were sufficiently developped enough that a shift for more education of the people was both possible and desirable. Although there was a larger educated portion of the population before that thanks to it nonetheless, which is why things like the XVIIIth happened.

((For a more modern example... Look at the digital technologies today. For a while everyone assumed it was just a matter of getting the tech to everyone to put an end to the 'Digital Divide'. And then we discovered that 'Divide' is also a matter of skills with the new tools, and of habits for the populations, without talking about the need of an extensive formation with these new tools.))

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

29 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Because suddenly society was a lot less agrarian and thus there were a lot more women could contribute to working society on equal footing with men. When the majority of the population are based on self sufficient labor the division of work will obviously be based quite largely on physical capabilities. I find that more believable than for thousands of years almost the entirety of human civilizations, even those completely isolated from each other, came to similar conclusions about the concept of gender roles.

22 minutes ago, Crysta said:

 

I'm not a historian by any stretch of the imagination, but it sounds like you're oversimplifying it by a lot. 

Pretty much what Crysta said yes, and to provide an example:

 

Printing with mobile characters, the evolution from woodblock printing which revolutioned the diffusion of books, and henceforth education and the likes centuries down the line. While Gutenberg was the one who invented it for Europe around 1450, Koreans discovered it too. With the earliest models to be found dating back from 1040 (clay mobile blocks before the metal ones).

But nothing came out of it in Orient. Why? Because that new method wasn't well-adapted to the complexity of the ideograms languages of the region, leading to it being deemed an interesting curiosity here, but nothing more because too impractical.

Technologic determinism, where technology=progress in 100% of the cases, isn't a thing. A society can change with technology, yes, but only if that society is ready and willing to undertake these changes.

[What would have happened if the Flame Emperor never went on the offensive?]

5 hours ago, Nihilem said:

If you dig deeper you also see references to other periods of the german history. The cutscene were she decleared war on the church was most likely inspired by the nuremberg Rally, which itself is connected to the beginning of the third reich. The whole part about "race of religious lizards who in secret control the fate of the world from the shadows" also feels uncomfortly close to how the nazis viewed the jews (I am not saying that Edelgard is a facist. Only that this is anther reference to german history not related to HRE).

The Creation of the "Ministry of Religion" to control the church is in my opinion definetly more connected to Bismarck (which were active in the north german empire and not HRE) because it actually represents the result of the "Kulturkampf" (replacing church structures by state structures) then the "Investiturstreits" (which was about the right to appoint bishops). The southern bishop was exiled and his function replaced by a minister after all, he was not replaced by another bishop appointed from the emperor.

Next the current situation of the empire wields some interesting parallels to the "Weimar Republic". The whole argument that the church aided the rebels in their war for independence is quite close - while not perfectly - resembling the "Dolchstoßlegende" were the military leaders of the old german empire claimed that the loss of world war 1 was not because they were defeated by a supreme military army but because the socialdemocrats (there political concurrents) had aided the enemy forces in secret. Also the story of crimson flower is literally a retelling of hitlers rise to power, where a secret gathering of old nobles aided the charismatic new leader to battle a greater foe (the communists) in the hope to controll him later. But they got removed from power silently once that person rose to power quite quickly. Again not saying Edelgard is a Nazi. Just that I find it interesting how many connections to all of german history can be found in the game.

 

And yet, you draw these parallels here, where other people less 'charitable than you can make them in their head for you because, welp, you just compared Edelgard and the Nazis for them. I'm not saying anything too.

I'll also point that appointing bishops is the medieval equivalents of what you are talking about with the Kulturkampf and state control of the church. Which is, again an interesting thing to know, but I think it is more pertinent to compare the medieval fantasy empire to the medieval historical empire. The further I am comfortable about drawing historical parallels pertinent for medieval entities is the French Revolution at best, and when it is pertinent. Like whoen someone wants to overthrow the social order their continent is built on.

 

To conclude on that, I'll point out France which did manage to reign in Church Influence because they won the battle of bishop appointment the empire lost. Tighter control never meant the Church everyone went to each Sunday and was at heart of their daily life magically lost all influence on society. There still was quite the support for it if the Wars of Religion, or things like the Vendean Insurrection are anything to go by.

 

5 hours ago, Nihilem said:

 

Just because of historical interest: What victories do you mean? The catholic church -to my knowledge- never could retake the privileges it lost during the Kulturkampf. And the power shifted to the state, not the protestants. Well most prussians statesmen were ofc protestants but the laws were enacted that the state would control it and no church of whichever confession.

 

I meant that it is easier to defy the catholic Church when it means nothing to you. And the catholic Ländern, like Bade-Wurtemberg for instance, were... fairly slow to enact any of these laws, when they even voted them. And Bismarck had to backpedal the most... controversial laws by 1878, and after that, negociate with the pope, which is not a sign of a complete victory for him. This shift wasn't a smooth ride for him.

 

6 hours ago, Nihilem said:

I would appreciate if we could have a serious discussion based on facts not emotions. Because people do not follow your logic does not make them stupid.

My reasoning for believing that Edelgard may buy the lies the Agarthans tell her is because we actually see her buying other lies the Agarthans tell her ingame. Like the great hero Nemesis who only had a struggle with the Nabateans and is not the agressor. Were even the Agarthans mock her for. Or that the Church somehow diveded the empire when in the DLC it is hinted that it was some familiar underground people. It may be that she does not believe them and only told them to their forces that they follow her, but unfortunately we can not look into her head to see what she is really thinking ....

She certainly would not believe everything they say, but if it is enough to influence her actions .....

 

I'm not expecting characters to follow logic constantly, but for people to use it while analyzing characters. Like, 'WHY people think Edelgard would automatically believe everything the people who carved her up like raw burger to plant a second Crest in her body after butchering all of her siblings trying to do so to them?'. If anything, I'd say Edelgard has vested emotional reasons for not trusting them in these circumstances.

And no, they didn't tell her shit about Nemesis, in case the fact she is all 'What?' when Tharundel calls him a thief because how much of a two-bit thug he was before the Mole Men used him. This is Imperial secret history, Emperors-only, about how the Church version of the war with Nemesis is bullshit. Edelgard only draws logical conclusions from there, because you usually write history with a scalpel to make yourself look better and the opposition worst, not the complex stunt Rhea pulled.

Church division? 1) It is a propaganda speech to her army, odds are facts in it will be fudged too. 2) You can achieve that by letting someone 'find' old forbidden texts bitching about how the Church is siding so one-sidedly with Faerghus on negociations at the end of the War of the Eagle and Lion, and reports about 'assistance' to Loog or other dicey events while editing out anything which could lead to think of the Mole Men in these scenarios. Biais would lead to draw the connections without going 'Trust us, we totally butchered you and your family because of the Church and how evil they are.'

 

6 hours ago, Nihilem said:

 

For your second argument i am a little bit confused, the tragedy of Duscur and Insurrection of the seven is even more evidence that the central church has no influence over the three realms of fodlan (or alternatively do not care what is happening there). Either way they do not seem to control things happening in the realms from the shadows, because they are either unable or unwilling to do it. Or do you mean that they should have build up enough power in e.g. Faerghus to prevent such things? Wouldnt they then not actually becoming the shadowy mastermind Edelgard is criticising them?

 

My second argument is 'the Church backed with its continent-wide influence the very system the nobles abuse to pull all their shit'. She set up the game, and can't be assed regulating it, despite her precious book saying she should do so (Commandments, plus the precedent the war with Nemesis create. Church went to war against bad Crest-bearers, so it creates the expectation they should do so now. If they don't, then these Crest-bearers/nobles have their approbation.)

And why, yes I am holding against Rhea the fact she couldn't contain disasters like Duscur. She built that whole edifice in the name of enforcing peace and order on Fodlan (her words in tea time, S-Support), I am going to hold her accountable for the failures of this rule, even if it is a far more hands off one than Edelgard imagine. Because when you let a ducking genocide happen without even a condamnation, you are doing something seriously wrong. My bone against Rhea isn't that she took upon herself to shape Fodlan's society, leading to an informal rule of the continent, it is that her attempt is breaking down something fierce since centuries, and that she is unable to fix the problem, and unwilling to let someone else take the driving wheel. Except Mama Sothis, and I am not considering morphing 'Resurrect Mama so I can see her again' to ''Resurrect Mama so I can see her again and she can fix everything' as a remotely pertinent plan for handling Fodlan's troubles. And no, it didn't work, it was just a series of insane odds she literaly had no control over that led to the outcome of the games.

 

6 hours ago, Nihilem said:

The French Revolution did not change much. Most of it was reverted by the rise of Napoleon and the Wiener Kongress. Just with other people in power. The processes that brought us modern democracies were much much slower.

 

I know. I can read history books/whatever mediums. I am just pointing out that with a violent war to enforce new standards, odds of something more similar to what the French Revolution set up will happen. Complete with counter-revolutionary wars to bury any change.

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I really don't think Seteth and Rhea etc appreciate the symbolism of Edelgard inviting Byleth along to the ceremony. The fact that it's never called a coup (if that's even true) is because we're on Edelgard's side in that route. I'm not sure Rhea and co even know Byleth was present for the crowning (they likely think it happened after the holy tomb incident by when Byleth would not be considered a church member).

 

They don't risk to 'appreciate it', Edelgard explicitely asks of Byleth of keep quiet about it, leading to exactly what you say about 'not knowing'. Because it would take a braindead potato to 'not get' the symbolism of an emperor ditching the archbishop for their crowning.

And it is very much qualified as a coup in AM, VW, SS... aka all non-CF roads, when Seteth describe how Edelgard snatched away power in the introduction of Chapter 12, when you know she actually got her father's full cooperation on the subject.

[What would have happened if the Flame Emperor never went on the offensive?]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well it demonstratably isn't a big deal as Edelgard gets away with it just fine.

 

Which is why it is a trigger for Crimson FLower, only happens on the very month Edelgard launch her war, and is described as a coup in every other road.

 

I can't say if that's bad faith or trolling.

 

39 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

With all the references between Adrestia and the various german states, i dont think that this is a accident ....

 

I find this statement very ironic, because my reasoning is very ùuch grounded in parallels to be drawn with the medieval German States: Namely, the Holy Roman Empire. Where one of the emperor's big defining features was the fact he was crowned by the pope, the only ruler of Europe to have that. Which of course meant for the popes that they very much had a say to have in imperial policies (See Fredric Barbarossa, Henry IV and Canossa, Fredric II Hohenstauffen, for starters). Conflict between papal and imperial authority is a defining feature of the HRE's history, until the Reformation bit both the very catholic pope and the very catholic emperor in the butt. And even then in 1526, Charles Quint, which would be the emperor to see the end of his morale superiority through papal crowning in the empire, and the Reformation beginning to gain ground at the time, still took the time of entering a war with the pope to demonstrate he had the pants in the relationship, which ended with the sack of Rome.

 

41 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

On the other side, the existence of the Ministry of Religion which has replaced the southern bishop is hard evidence that the influence of the church on empire politics is minimal at best. This event alone is basically there version of Bismarcks "Kulturkampf" (a struggle between the (nothern) german empire and the catholic church, where the politican Bismarck basically stripped the church from most of there important wordly "rights" like perfoming marriages and (religious) education and putting them under control of the state) which diminished the influence of the catholic church in germany quite drastically and cemeted the "Split between church and state" (dont know the correct english word for it).

 

Thing is, by that point, Bismarck (lutherian), and the bulk of Germany (lutherian/calvinists), are protestants. And even there, the catholics within Germany won many actual wins before Bismarck was forced to negotiate with the Church. And relations remained strained until the end of the Second Reich. That would rather point at the persistance of some serious influence in my opinion.

 

40 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

 

But by all this discussions we should probably keep in mind that only we as the outside observant know this. Edelgard on the other side were fetched information from a group which had all the intention to make the church look as bad as possible whereever they can. So maybe they conviced Edelgard that the Ministry of Religion was secretly controlled by the church or that even the whole Coup détat was somehow their doing .... wouldnt be the first time they blamed the church for things they themselves were responsible for ....

 

Facepalm. Facepalm so hard.

First, because I'm ducking tired of people saying 'LOLZ, Edelgadr is sooo much of a cretin for swallowing Mole Men Bullshit'. At what exact moment of their relationship of intense mutual hatred is it suggested she would be so monumentally stupid to believe anything they would say to her face? My guess, using basic logic? They probably nudged her in that direction, yes, but they most likely did so indirectly, since you know, she had literaly zero reasons of trusting them, by doing things like Solon/Thomas and its frobidden texts of Verdant Winds. Signs of dissimulation of truth by the Church, shady behaviors... Basic deduction is then generally enough to draw not-so friendly conclusions about whoever is tied to these things.

Second, The shitshow of the Southern Church happened 120 years ago, that's a lot of tiume for the Central Church to get their heads out of their butts to rebuild their relationship with Adrestia, the bloody half of the continent, which is literaly next door. It seems like basic logic some diplomacy happened during the years, but who knows? Maybe this possibility is really too far removed from common sense to be considered.

Third, a part of the problem with the Church is the moral order it upholds, with the nobility with a divine mandate to rule, that they let go to their heads after centuries of Kool-Aid drinking, leading to duckshows like Duscur and the Seven. Edelgard's anger stems from the fact that the Church created a system which allows this sort of blatant, brutal and bloody abuse to happen, and 'forgot' about its own commandments about how Crests isn't enough to be beyond everyone, and do that sort of shit.

 

40 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

But wasnt his point that creating a functioning and just system took time? Because the system in the aftermath of the french revolution was certainly not just and I would also say not really functioning.... that you can overthrow a system in a few years I think no one questioned. But then you normally have chaos.

 

Call it cynism, but I don't see Edelgard establishing this order even within Adrestia peacefully. Because the Mole Men and the Seven control the country, not her. Yes, she got Bergliez and Hevring in her corner, but the only way she could have outbidden Aegir with them is likely that very war to unify Fodlan, and the possibilities it offered. Without that, no change of camps, especially to support an order aimed at getting them off power. And the Mole Men won't like their Nemesis 2.0 giving the middle finger to their plans. So intense, bloody nasty civil war is likely to happen. Which will probably lead to the sort of changes the French Revolution happened.

[What would have happened if the Flame Emperor never went on the offensive?]

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah I was not privy to this particular information when I made the thread either. It's kind of a major blow to the legitimacy of Edelgard's actions as the supposed dragon pope she's rebelling against has basically no power in her country to begin with.

 

'No power'. Yup. That's why the fact the archbishop is supposed to serve as witness for each new emperor crowning is a big deal, and even more when Edelgard ditches this for her own crowning.  Clearly there is absolutely no influence of the pope of the religion and her military order within half the continent just because of one incident more than one century ago. Absolutely nobody would believe or could imagine that things could have evolved past that low point, or that the Central Church could ever try to renew these relationships themselves.

 

It was the relationships between the two groups knowing a rise in tension at that moment, there was 120 years for the crisis to cool off. And it did so enough her father was attending Garreg Mach. Also, by that logic, once the Western Church is purged, there should be no relationship between Faerghus and the Church.

 

1 hour ago, Cyan1456 said:

 

And before anyone brings it up it's unlikely Rhea was involved in this mainly because she's still rather fond of Wilhelm's family: he was the first human she ever trusted and even when she goes mad in CF she still struggles with the idea that she'll have to kill his descendant in her fight dialogue with Edelgard this happens even if you kill Seteth and Flayne. It's another thing that goes against the "Rhea would attack the Empire if the flame emperor stayed inactive" bit.

 

It's more of a 'So Disappointed/Disgusted' moment that I was reading here. Given the sort of little speech she offers when Edelgard escapes the Holy Tomb, I doubt she is taking someone toppling the social order her Church is litteraly bound to the hip with lightly. Heck, no pope ever did so, even for far smaller incidents, like Cathars, Hussites, Reformation (before Luther's little thesis went viral)... Because these sorts of things were direct challenges of their legitimacy to be head of the faith for Christiandom. Rhea can hardly tolerrates such things herself, or her whole edifice tumbles down into nothingness.

 

And for 'No change can be sudden'... French Revolution. Within two, three years, the nobility had lost its privileges, many had emigrated to search for support from foreign monarchies, and the social order had taken a pretty serious hit, which led to reactions from other Europeans kingdoms not keen on the idea that their peasants could ever take notes about what happened, and a Church which didn't like the ditching of kings she's supposed to sacre.

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

The point her primary goal is a massive case of skewed priorities. If you have a moderately evil enemy and a super evil enemy, siding whit the super evil one to defeat the other is not the best path.

It's also a case of 'Who's the biggest monster?', in the sense of which one is the bigger opponent. And between the continental Church holding sway amongst the major part of the nobility, be it only through lip service in the name of preserving their power over the peasants, and the Mole Men, who despite their power, evil and arrogance, the latter making it clear they would want to win their war without using 'beasts' if they could, are forced into the shadows and manipulations games? One of these two looks like the mightier opponent, and I am (not) sorry for the Mole Men's ego, but that's not them.And when you have two enemies, but that the two of them hate each other? You 'ally' the weaker one, while preparing to take down that so-called ally the nanosecond their help isn't needed anymore to take down the bigger opponent.

[The True Tragedy of Three Houses]

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

 

-allow Arundhel to do has he please whit his territory

I think the Mole Men having a tight grip on Adrestia and Edelgard a shortage of other allies is the 'why' here.

 

4 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

 

-routinely employ demonic beasts

- transform into the hegenon

You know, the first point is a bad mark, but actuallly being willing to suffer this processus herself... Well, being willing to suffer the fate inflicted to your soldiers is... Something at least?

 

6 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

-the scene at the end of BL

The name is Suicide by Cop. Aegir's treatment of her father probably taught her that surviving your defeat can only end in a most painful way.

 

7 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

-force Brigid to cooperate whit her

Church tries that too/Petra seems rather willing to cooperate in scenarios where she isn't recruited.

 

Ninja'd for the barrier but also,

Just now, Flere210 said:

I admit that forgot that detail, but they can still nuke your army when they are in one place. And even if shamballa get destroyed they can just let it be, they can store the data in their computers and move away the important equipment, once the nukes land they won't need shamballa in the first place. And nuke are the tip of the iceberg whennit comes to their superior technology. But this can easily became a rant on magitek in general so i will stop there.

Millenia after Agartha's fall, and a likely shortage in components after said millenia of wear and tear for their toys... I don't think they have that many resources left, or people with that level of arrogance wouldn't use 'beast' pasties, they would nuke until they have the continent under control.

[Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun or Age of Empires: Definitive Edition?]

I would say AoE2 DE is definitely a worthy buy. The campaign got some nice reworks, especially the Forgotten ones, several QoL changes happened making the game nicer, with an actual campaign intended as a tutorial for multiplayer... The bonuses keeps pilling on, for civilizations from now the most part of the glob. Very, very noice.

 

That being said, I would also recommend two mods for Command & Conquer, one for Tiberium Sun and another for Red Alert 2 Yuri's Revenge:

 

-Twisted Insurrection: A C&C2 stand-alone mod for a timeline where Nod won C&C1. The game is nice, and the alternate timeline creates some interesting differences for the faction rosters.

 

-Mental Omega: Basically, this mod started out of a desire of providing a balancing and a campaign for the Yuri faction. Now? It's a total of two acts of 12 missions for Allied, Soviets and Yuri (However, the last two missions of each factions are still being worked on for release), plus a handful of coop and 'special' missions, and all these missions are part of a gigantic plotline. And a fourth faction has been created and added, with a few prologues missions for now. And each of these factions are divided in 3 sub-factions with their own specificities and unique units for solo or multiplayer. Just a must.