Hardric62
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Posts posted by Hardric62
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1 hour ago, Lunarly said:
She also admits to knowing a group was plotting against her but, doesn't know who said group was until probably Solon revealed himself to everyone. Seteth even mentions there was a large investigation in the SS info dump to find out who said group was, which could've been the same investigation Rhea/Seteth/Shamir were talking about in the beginning of the game where you first see Shamir.
Also yikes, using headcannon to boost your argument.
Well, That would be why I acknowleged it out loud, and I tried to make it a bare minimum, as in 'basic logic', where you do not let known enemies free reign in the shadows to destroy the society you're trying to build. Or that make Rhea so insanely incompetent and stupid it hurts.
Also, from the way she talked about knowing the Mole People were the group proping up Nemesis for his slaughter of the Nabateans when she is freed in Verdant WInd/Silver Snow, and her elaboration after Shambhalla is razed in Verdant Wind, where she very much paints the Mole People as the descendants of these people who got the obliteration treatment when they rose against Sothis... Yup, she totally knew about their existence, and the fact that they survived Mama's anger to make Nemesis the threat he was. If they could survive the devastation she described, I do think it is rather elementary logic to assume that they would survive a mere military defeat of their cronies, and try to locate them to make sure they never try a stunt like that ever again.
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20 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:
While this isn't a bad idea, the problem I have with your point is that Rhea didn't notice that GARREG MACH, her home base, had been infiltrated by said mole people. She might know they're out there, but she has no clue how to find them, considering they wind up camping right under her nose. What chance do a bunch of knights who aren't in the know have of finding them?
Okay, I'll admit that I'm going in headcanon territory here, but since Rhea does know the Mole People exist and fought them the first time, that she also knows that they proped up Nemesis, and likely survived his defeat when they survived the near-total devastation of Fodlan, she had two courses of action offered:
1) Ignore them, hope they die/become irrelevant.
2) Prepare herself form some shadow war to root them out for good, like Edelgard does in Crimson FLower.
Given than 1) would be an idea so inasnely foolish and a display of the most epicly gross incompetence ever, I'll give Rhea some credit and consider she chose 2).
For making the link with the situation you presented, I'm going to presume she lost that shadow war. The Mole People managed to play dead convincingly enough for long enough, or offered her a decoy Shambhalla to ruin to make her think she had won so she dropped her guard, and by the time she realized they had played her in the present, it was too late. Beause again, the idea that she did nothing during one thousand years against the true culprits of her mother and people's murder, and just assumed they would stop after Nemesis' fall to bring ruin to Fodlan, or were too dead to do it despite surviving a far more punishing defeat, is a way of thinking so grossly stupid that I refuse to consider she could have followed it.
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16 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:
Ah, yes, that would work out so well if they were found out that they were doing such a thing. Feels like you are trying to make Rhea out to be some sort of mastermind behind tactics or something.
Well, what is she supposed to do exactly, leave the Mole People free to act as they desire? Oh wait, that happened, and it worked out so well too, when everything crumbled around her.
She could also, you know, tell her that her Knights are searching for other threats to make sure the job was done right. I mean, if you find a band of Mole People, at what moment did they strike you as looking as law-abidding and peaceful citizens up to no arms while taking their Totally-No-Demonic Beasts on a walk through the countryside to totally not eat peasants or something? Or, I dunno plant covert agents inside a Knights party to do that secretly, and go for the 'Scout for bandits/threats' excuse if someone spotted, after all, scouts have to be discreet to not be spotted while investigating threats. Again, the Knights have assassins teams (Shamir/Hubert support), so what is one more covert ops team?
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58 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:
Suggesting once again that I am moving the goalposts even though all the reasons you listed are likely hired jobs as well? Maybe you should realize that the bandits at Zanado were possibly an exception (with that possibly being a holy site as well).
One last time, slowly: Use. Hired Jobs. As. Excuses. For. Covert. Search. Of. Mole. People. Because. Hired. Jobs. Offer. Possibility. Of. Explaining. Action. All. Across. Fodlan.
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8 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:
It's a big assumption that she would be able to do that, especially when it's very likely that TWSitD were scattered all around Fodlan (I doubt that they were doing nothing for 1,000 years). They, or even the ten elites she apparently made peace with (back then, after the war of heroes) might not be happy with them crossing into their lands for things they could take care of (either on their own, or hiring other mercenaries), which would work against her.
Again with moving the goalposts? The game already established that the Knights are pretty much deploying all across Fodlan. They didn't get the reputation they got for collecting bottle caps, you know? Besides, what is so unacceptable about doing things like searching for bandits camps, magic beasts, or whatever plausible cover excuse to do these searches?
8 hours ago, Nihilem said:Well the thing with the divine right to rule comes from Rhea herself. We dont know exactly why she decided to put her old enemy in charge of vast amount of lands and cement their authority (maybe the dlc will tackle these questions) but the most convincing theory is that her forces were just tired of war and she needed somehow to achieve peace fast. Therefore she needed to offer the remaining leaders of the enemy faction a really good reason to lay down weapons. And including them into the new ruling body seemed to her answer for that (something that happened in medieval europe also a few times btw).
After that she could not easily go back without risking another war. And while the actions of the nobles reveal them to be human trash what have they actually done to blame them?
Not loving their children if they dont have crests. Forcing them to marry based on crests. Mistreading them to make them obidient. Belittling them if they dont have crest. And more in the same region.
All things that -as mentioned- show their ugly faces. But what of that is really a reason to wage war over? Most of it wasnt even illegal in our world a few hundred years ago and it certainly dont seem to be in fodlan. The only thing that may be an argument is the human experimentation and sacrifing of the TWSiTD. But it seems that almost no one knew about it and the victims (and the church) had zero proof for any it.
Well, not exactly. Her holy book does present the Crests as the Goddess' gifts, but is also talking about how greed made these heroes fall, and make the goddess turn her gaze away from Fodlan. That, and Nemesis is a pretty perfect ur-example of 'Bad Crest Bearer'. And in theory, there is a whole commandment for 'Don't abuse your power'. Lack of luck, when nobles build the argument for 'divine right to rule', they do what people with holy books: they cherry pick, keeping the Goddess' favor part, and likely 'forgetting' the other ones. Or at best doing thins like 'Abusing Crests, me? Look at Nemesis, the Bad Crest Bearer. The Church literaly took arms to remove him. They are not condamning me/taking arms against me. Clearly it means what I'm doing is acceptable, and henceforth blessed by the Goddess'. Circular thinking, fallacious, but there is that. Rhea didn't seem in any hurry to actualy apply the relevant parts of her holy book. And complicity by inaction is a thing.
And the gaming to get the Crests, while despicable, is just one part of the problem. You have a social class which has been told for one thousand years 'Thanks to this tangible proof of the Goddess' favor, you have a divine right to rule', with Crestless nobles likely settling for the next best thing by arguing that they act under the rulership of blessed nobles, surely it counts for something. One thousand years of that mindset can breed some serious... Entitlement, to say the least. And with it comes the potential for abuse against the population, corruption... And actually, increasing desperation to get the dang Crests, because now they have the sold the idea that they are divine favor, if they disappear, then 'clearly' it is a sign they lost that divine favor for the wider population, and are not fit to rule... I smell revolts incoming.
And yet the Church still sat without issuing even a condamnation for these things, putting that moral authority to actual use before the situation was too wide-spread to be dealt with. And well, I do think an interpretation of 'debasing the Goddess' gifts with crass politics and odious behavior' could have been pushed. It's not the things you mentioned, but the medieval Church did took a quite adamant stance against consanguinity within the nobility in the real world, and they tried their damnest to apply it during most of the Middle Ages. Surely Rhea could have at least tried something rather than watch it all go down the drain?
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1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:
This is the main issue. You are assuming that she has free reign over Fodlan in terms of where she could send her knights, but from what we have seen, the Church needs permission to do so before being able to do anything. You say that I am moving goalposts, but allowing her soldiers to search all over Fodlan assumes that she can actually has control over Fodlan. The fact that TWSitD are an ancient enemy, and that people likely wouldn't believe that they have ancient technology/javelins of light would be a bigger issue for Rhea, and TWSitD knows this.
' I began pointing out that Rhea had an army to use as a tool for her own ruling, then had to point out that, yes, this army is able to go all across Fodlan for search and destroy against the Mole People, as long as she can back this up with requests from help to the Knights in the area they are sent to. '
See the bolded part of my precedent quote? She doesn't have to tell the Knights are hunting for Mole People, heck most of the Knights don't even need to know they're hunting Mole People. They just have to do their usual work of bandit/whatever threat-squashing, and if for some reason, she suspects the Mole People are around, not just their hideout, but that they are involved, she hides some agents inside the group with what they need to know, as 'scouts', and if/when they spot Mole People, they point the knights towards the strange spooky people with a skin as white as a corpse, clearly aggressive, and who keeps ranting about other humans being beasts while keeping these Demonic Beasts around them.
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20 minutes ago, Nihilem said:
Well I think here we have to clearly devide between the lore of the game and the mechanics behind it. So I dont think that every skirmish really happened (that would mean that the empire and kingdom would constantly loose whole cities to rebell forces - something that is definetly not canon.)
But it seems to be right that the lords of fodlan have much use for skilled mercenaries, as the group around your father also seemed to be booked out quite frequently. And the Knights beeing basically a glorified troop of elite mercenaries may be really requested in that kind of enviroment.... but wasnt your original point that they could basically overthrow the ruling lords whenever they feel like it? I dont see any evidence for that, heck in most of the routes they need the support of the kingdom or alliance to beat the empire alone and in some even with that it is not enough. But against all three forces of fodlan combined the dont have the slighest chance at all. And thos power most likely would come together if the church suddenly starts a holy war to replace the ruling caste .... from history we can tell that they dont like things like this at all.
I think the military power of the central church is higly overestimated. Most likely because the knights of seiros overestimated themselves before the war. After all they are elite mercenaries that squashed regularly their enemies on the battlefield. But they dont have numbers on their side. And in an all out war that counts the most. Something they had to learn the hard was in most of the routes....
Well, the paralogues and the like do paint a picture of rampant banditry, that the nobles are unable to keep under control, when they are not joining the fray themselves (Felix, Sylvain and Ignatz/Raphael's paralogue). So, all happening? Maybe not, but I do think they have at least some reflection in the lore. Like you said, mercs are booked over, that usually means the situation is bad, and traditional autorities are unable to fix it.
Well, my point evolved because MrPerson0 keeps moving the goalposts. I began pointing out that Rhea had an army to use as a tool for her own ruling, then had to point out that, yes, this army is able to go all across Fodlan for search and destroy against the Mole People, as long as she can back this up with requests from help to the Knights in the area they are sent to. Back to the overthrowing lords? Welp, I was more envisioning something like that Rhea could have done when the Crest System began to go toxic:
-One lord begins to have funny ideas about Crests and divine right to rule.
-Rhea uses her position as well, archbishop to condamn that duck, calling back to the fall of Nemesis and the likes, to kill that sort of idea.
-If one lord keeps pushing? Using that moral authority to condamn them further, plus some diplomacy with the Emperor (I am talking about niping that idea in the bud, so probably back when it is the Empire only), to just send her army to remove the offending noble after singling him out thhrough these condamnations (Lonato's fate show that at this scale at least, it is possible). The Emperor should not mind too much, since that would mean he remains the only noble having direct sanction from the Church to rule (archbishop as 'witness' of each new crowining).
-Poor sod who got removed becomes an example of the fact that, no, you don't get to have funny idea about Crests.
Admittedly, the knights could have been overestimating themselves. That being said, elite groups could also potentially not be that much of a downside. Medieval armies often weren't actually that big, and one of the reason knights lasted that long was, welp, because they were just that more effictive than drafted levies. Question then become just how much they overestimated themselves. (As an interesting PS note, they also seem to have assassins teams, if that Hubert/Shamir support is anything to go by).
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Just now, MrPerson0 said:
You ask me if I am serious, then you are the one who tries to tie a game mechanic to the story...Nonetheless, how about the very high likelihood that all of the skirmishes are requests by people in the region to take care of the bandits/pirates, just like how it worked with the Alois paralogue? Don't see how either of these make it seem that Rhea is in control of all of Fodlan.
I was talking about possibility for deploying her Knights all across Fodlan, which was the point you were discussing about when I provided the answeer you quoted. And guess what, it does mean Rhea can get pretexts to send her Knights all across Fodlan. And for the control thingie, when you have an armed force patrolling a territory and removing hostile forces across it or keeping the order/peace, you are usually considered as controlling the terrotiry.
1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:In the medieval times, 14 years old isn't really seen as that young (unfortunately), and that ties to this as well. It might seem irrational to think a 14 year old could do such as thing in our time, but it really isn't back then.
Euh, even in medieval times, by 14, you had kings and queens go through this thing called regency, where others ruled in their stead until they were deemed old enough, and that was generally closer to 20 years than 14. Also, that thing called the Insurrection of the Seven also had been in full force by then. Edelgard was nowhere near even a scrap of power by then, so planning something like the Tragedy of Duscur...
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4 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:
That is a bet that was disproved by Hubert in CF right after the timeskip. Even Edelgard was against working with them, but Hubert had to convince her to do so because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
And it took her years to shake them off that much, and Tharundel is still sitting on a massive army, loyal to only him, she still has to play nice with him, bails out his cronies (Hubert Paralogue), or leave him do things like snatching all Alliances' Relics, and then shows that he has nukes to use to make sure she 'minds her manners'. Outright confrontation would have meant bloody civil war, and more than likely ruined her chances of winning her war. And that's assuming they would have left her go that far while she was in the phase 'get the Empire behind her' if it became clear she was going to attack them first. And that is with Best Case Crimson Flower. They clearly can manage to have an even deeper grip in other routes. Tharundel does refer to her as their 'prized weapon', remeber? That usually means you take precautions to make sure this sort of people remain under control for at least as long as you need them for your own objectives.
6 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:The pretext is these bandits already attacked the students in the beginning of the game. Guess you have forgotten that, for the Almyrans (who were 'pirates') at the city of Deirdru, the merchants had to ask for the Church's help?
Almighty Gygax, you are serious. Here is another secret: these are but a sample of the requests sent to the Church of Seiros. Remember things like, the story missions? The other paralogues? The skirmishes you can go for all across Fodlan with the Battle option? Knights are clearly having way more missions than the ones seen on-screen (they are repeatedly mentioned as streched thin. You know, that would imply they are already been sent to the four corners of Fodlan). Also, another mind-boggling fact: it's only over one year. Just imagine how many other requests they could have gotten over the one thousand years they existed.
11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:Because she was literally the Flame Emperor, who was behind a good amount of the crimes in the monastery. Also, Dimitri outright saw her working with them. As I said, if Edelgard never took up that persona, and came to them for help, things would be different.
And yet the one thing he snapped for was Duscur, aka something you could not rationnaly pinpoint on Edelgard, owing to her age and position at the moment of the Tragedy. That does not point towards a very rational reaction to this sort of revelations, or a reaction subtle enough such as the one required here. Oh, and the fact they would have diverging opinion on how to settle this (Dimitri thinks the statu quo is to be bettered, Edelgard that it should be shattered, up to including the Church. COnflict looks rather hard to avoid here). There is also the fact he considers himself that things with Edelgard are beyond the point of discussion (his Ball scene). And again, that's assuming they don't take umbrage of something like, oh I dunno, their pet Nemesis 2.0 project taking a course of action leading to her openly and directly rebelling against them.
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2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:
Except I am trying to talk about her not being the Flame Emperor, and going to them for help first?
Was the case with the Claude example I pointed out, and welp, my point was more to show what sort of reaction Dimitri could have had to that sort of revelation. Hint, not exactly stellar.
2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:There's no doubt that a war would still occur if TWSitD took over. Doesn't change that Edelgard still could have been with the Church/Dimitri/Claude, providing them needed info. As I said, it was her choice to side with TWSitD, and she seemingly wasn't forced to do so.
Little secret: they took over, remember Tharundel and that thing called Insurrection of the Seven? And they have been in control of Adrestia for what, the better part of a decade now? You bet that Edelgard was given a free 'choice' here.
4 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:Seems these pretexts are not equal. From what we have seen, they only enter the Kingdom on their own to deal with Lonato and the Western Church, which once again, was out to kill Rhea.
And they also do that routinely for bandit squashing all across Fodlan, plus covering students during their assigned mission. Is it that hard to use these pretexts for covert ops?
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9 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:
It's pretty misleading to suggesting that Dimitri and Claude would act like that, especially when those two want a better Fodlan, and want to find out the truth of various things/events.
Those two being at the monastery really doesn't matter since they need Edelgard (as a tool in their view), and it doesn't change the fact that Edelgard chose to work with them, instead of being forced to. They needed her, and she needed them (apparently).
Except they acted like that, in BL and GD routes respectively. That scene of the Flame Emperor Reveal for Blue Lions, and the scene with Claude and Edelgard in the library of Golden Deer are there for a reason.
. . . Okay, what parts of the definitions of 'coup', handler' and 'puppet ruler' you didn't understand? And just because they need Edelgard alive doesn't mean they cannot deep-six any intiative to get things to get out from under their thumb. Actually, it looks like an excellent reason to watch her closely and do just that.
12 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:She still doesn't control all of Fodlan. It's not like she can invade the Empire, Kingdom, or Alliance on her own all willy-nilly. From what we have seen, the Church only helps out when they are asked to do so (or someone takes up arms against them).
Seriously? Her Knights have pretty much a free pass to go anywhere on Fodlan, as long as a pretext exist. So... I freaking dunno, use these pretexts, and when they are not enough, create other ones?
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2 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:
There still was nothing stopping Edelgard from telling Dimitri, Rhea, and Claude what was actually going on in the background. The fact that she apparently chose to work with TWSitD instead of being forced to (as Hubert mentions in CF), shows that she had more power on her own, especially when you look at the Japanese version of Cornelia's death quote in CF.
Dimitri: ... You serious? Because I can't help but hear people getting neck-snapped with a one-hand grip when you say that.
Claude: That was tried. No one was willing to do first step, it died.
Chose to work with the Mole People: Again, the same Mole People controlling her Empire. Because I only need one look to both Aegir and Tharundel to see the one who was wearing the pants in that plot, no matter which one was ostensibly the ruler. It does give them a tiny bit more leverage than you think, and one relatively hard to shake off (it takes years in CF, and Arianrhod is there to show you that it is not an easy processus).
Also, friendly reminder that before the well was terminally poisoned with Remire and Jeralt, you always had at least one Mole People in Garreg Mach, ThomaSolon and MoniCrony, and later one (MoniCrony) literally glued to Edelgard harder than her Doki Doki namesake. You generally call that 'handlers', aka people you put there to control covert assets so they play the script as intended and do not entertain funny ideas of going rogue.
2 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:She never controlled the entirety of Fodlan. If she did, more people would be forced to actually follow the teachings of Seiros, and obviously, it would have been easier to find them.
Euh, did you looked at that map? The only part of Fodlan not controlled by one of the three kingdoms is Sreng. I think there were aplenty chances to find them.
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5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:
For all we know, if Edelgard didn't go to war, she could have tried to talk to the other leaders about what to do for the future. It seems most were open to change, especially with Rhea being ready to hand over the Church to Byleth.
Well, no. Just no. For several reasons:
1) Discussion was already dismissed and attempted. Dimitri's scene for the Ball? He openly acknowledges him and Edelgard have driften apart too much for that. Golden Deer? Claude and Edelgard don't manage to trust each other enough, and nothing happens.
2) Rhea was preparing to hand over the Church to Mama, important distinction. She marginally switches her position after the Flame Emperor disrupts her ritual, but she didn't seem that happy with its results even before that. Not sure of what would have happened if no Flame Emperor Interruption.
3) Heck, the very fact things progressed that far regarding Sothis is pretty much the ultimate perfect storm, from the bandit attack to the Holy Tomb, to that fusion... and the coincidences only started to pile up because that bandit attack started it all. No war, no tricks like that, and the whole sequence gets out of sync. And Fodlan is already on the verge of collapse and war anyways because of how rotten things have gotten, so any delay just short out that possibility.
4) Edelgard had things to gain from the war. Yes. But ultimately, it was the Mole People's war. You know, the people who used Aegir's little coup to take control of the Empire? And who clearly wanted that war? At what moment did they give the impression they would tolerate the idea that Edelgard would do anything else than declare that war for them exactly? And at what moment do they give the impression they would call off said war?
5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:The holy book also speaks about how the Goddess hates the nobles for abusing the power of the crests and relics, and yet, the nobles never follow this. It should be obvious that nobles will only look out for themselves. Just because she is immortal doesn't mean she has actual control/power over every living being in Fodlan. After all, the Church it seems the Church helps those who requests for it, and it seems to stay out of others' affairs (unless they are attacked of course). Also, the fact that she allowed Hanneman to continue his studies makes it seem that she was open to alternative means of usage for the crests.
1) People cherry-picking the holy books for proping their position. It's new how exactly? And why the Church, you know, that supreme moral authority with an army said to be able to rival with any kingdom of Fodlan, never cracked down on the earlier cases to make it clear they couldn't paly at that little game? Dress it in 'Remember Nemesis, Sinner!' and voila.
2) Immortal ruler means for me that she had centuries to see the rot sip in and try to extract it from her system. While using that supreme moral authority position she built for herself, or that freaking army she commands. She is the one talking about how she wanted to impose peace and order on Fodlan, I will hold her accountable for the failure.
3) They also use catastrophes like Duscur to hide their execution of would-be assassins (Cristophe), while doing jack shit to rein in shit like Duscur, and their way of mediating seems... skewed (War of the Eagle and Lion. A frakking Knight is the one to tell you that yup, the Church was really leaning on Loog's side here. Yes, they were winning, but mediation is usually supposed to be a neutral party, not help one party to bleed dry the other).
4) ... Just how far would Hanneman have been allowed to go though? His research with crests was bound to touch upon truths Rhea didn't want to be revealed, and awake some nice flashbacks to the Mole People regarding tech. And if you can't control a scholar by making him agree with secrecy through money, or discredit them, there are only so many ways of keeping them under control... Oh, and how could I forget the Mole People? What happen when they take interest, be it for assassination or taking control? I mean, there is no shortage of corrupt noble they can use as strawmen for that type of actions. Also, it has been one frakking thousand years. I refuse to believe he was the first to think about that over the centuries. And yet, nothing changed so far.
4 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:As for the second point, Rhea and Seteth knew that TWSitD were out there, but they simply weren't able to find them (they gave up after searching. The only way anyone was able to find them was through tracking the missiles, which TWSitD knew was an issue, so they haven't launched them within that time period.
If anything, that's a bad mark against Rhea, and a big one. She knew the buggers had proped Nemesis up from two-bit thug to 'King of Liberation', that they were no quitters and would come back to sink the boat. The fact she either couldn't be assed to think about fighting them in the shadows to make sure they didn't rock her boat, or failed to win that fight after making it her responsibility by erasing trace of the Mole People is not exactly a sterling achievement to boast about. At least in the second case she tried rather than gift-wrap them Fodlan. And heck, you really think she is an incompetent moron if you figure she couldn't even try for an old-fashioned searching over one freaking thousand years and just let the guys do the duck the wanted accross Fodlan. You can cover lots of ground with that sort of time, you know?
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28 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:
Why not? They are kids who lived sheltered lives (most of them at least), and assumed that they cracked a big case and whatnot.
*Look at Edelgard, Hubert, Petra, Dorothea, Bernadetta, Dimitri, Dedue, Felix, Ingrid, Sylvain, Ashe, Mercedes, Claude, Ignatz, Raphael, Lysitheia, Marianne, Leonie's backstories, both the bad and the close calls.*
You have a strange definition of sheltered.
32 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:Sure, but we are talking about Rhea in this topic, and once again, I do not think there has been any cases of her killing people for questioning the religion. Also, in the case of Claude, should also note that he didn't just question the religion, he was suggesting that Rhea should be permanently removed from power, which anyone could take away as killing her, which looks pretty bad on him.
As for the books, that isn't limited to info on the Church. Apparently students aren't allowed to look up info about nobles (which is why Dimitri had to sneak in late into the night to do so). We don't know if this is something they only do with students.
1) Well, it is her Church, her moral authority shaping a society, and she doesn't seem to have expanded that much effort on fixing that mess.
Also, okay, it didn't happen in canon but... She would have to do that sort of things over these one thousand years, because these things would challenge the authority she needs to play peacekeeper and supreme moral authority on the continent. Monotheistic religions don't take kindly to competition, especially when there is a malicious outside group dedicated to ruin it all known by the surpeme echelon of the church's hierarchy.
I was also talking about Claude's support in general, not just the Church when I was mentioning the 'beasts' issue. And I spotted quite a few discussions involving the Japanese versions of the texts saying he was actually willing to go that far if needed. Does it look bad? Probably, but welp, Rhea couldn't be assed from pushing for preaching more tolerance so far, or nip in the bud the obsession on Crests before it went toxic (her holy book paints them as divine favor, and she is the immortal who would get to see the society evolve around that idea, it's squarely on her head), and if she was doing things so well, the Mole People wouldn't have got their hooks on two kingdoms of Fodlan out of three and sparked a continent-wide war. You generally want to remove rulers who haven't been up to the task, and Rhea is only willing to budge here in exceptional circumstances which materialized through insane chance and others characters couldn't have known about without reading the script. It only leave so many ways of removing her of power if she doesn't want to.
2) Yes, but the ones which get the removal treatment are the ones about the sensitive data about the parts fo history Rhea is censuring. And given Garreg Mach's position in Fodlan, I expect it to be a quite important center of learning for scholars too (eh, Hanneman moved here fo his studies for a reason). Looks pretty obvious to me than other people than the students will be concerned with this censure.
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5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:
Not really the same as "violent suppression", especially when there are people like Cyril and Shamir who are willingly open to admit that they are not believers.
There is some slight problems with the 'But... Cyril! Shamir!' argument:
1) Rhea's opinion is clearly not the wider one inside the Church and society. And given the warm opinion on Dedue for being from Duscur (and yes, I know, assassination plus genocide... except this sort of escalation generally has to be built on a sizeable amount of less obvious at first glance resentment to happen), I have... doubts about how the rest of the Church and society sees them (friendly reminder that Claude supports also point out that foreigners are seen as 'beasts' in Fodlan). I also recall that the Church is noted in epilogues to be reformed toward a more tolerant stance, which means there was some intolerance before for this to happen. Heck, Catherine's support with Shamir does not hint at a wider tolerance for that type of stance either.
2) Direct service of Rhea for both of them has to buy them some tolerance... But, welp, it does not necessarily translate into wider tolerance. Heck, the Crusades and the Reconquista both saw either side involved going for mercs from other confessions, and the tolerance wasn't that good both during the hotter phases of these conflicts, or in the aftermath.
And beyond that:
1) It's pretty much the costs of 'doing business'. Rhea rules a religion professing about an omniscient, omnipotent goddess, aka a Catholic expy, down to most of the titles used. These religions are generally quite intolerant because, welp, they preach as if they wre absolute truth, they can hardly tolerate 'competition' without reneging on their own creed. Especially here in Fodlan, where the Mole Men can use that to foster troubles (see Solon happily offering Claude 'forbidden informations'', they clearly know how to use that type of moves). And in both her supports and tea conversations, she does not hide she sees the Church as Fodlan's peacekeeper, her mean of enforcing peace and order on the continent. It's harder to do when you are not the unquestioned moral authority.
2)Also, between the warnings of heresy, and the active suppression of forbidden knowledge... Forgive me if it does look like Claude is in for more trouble than a stern lecture when this kind of warning is used.
6 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:These are the same students who still believed that the Western Church members didn't want to kill Rhea (even though one of the captured members outright said they were trying to), and, just a couple of months ago, started killing for the first time (for most of them at least). Then, there are those like Ashe who are pretty biased in the situation.
1) Like you said, they just said it, pretty much to their face. Could we please not take the students for complete and utter morons please? I dare think these 'denials' were more in the lines 'just how fucked up is that duck' that outright negations of reality.
2) People often say 'Rhea is a medieval leader, she gets to do that'... While it is actually a bit more delicate than that in reality, there is the fact Fodlan is a more violent society than modern times, so I will go out on a limb and assume that violent punishments for crimes are more wide-spread. And point out the fact than more often than not, medieval executions did end up as impromptu spectacle for the population. And the students are still unerved. I guess you can call it personal interpretation, but I don't get the idea that this sort of execution is all normal to them from that.
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7 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:
It makes sense because they were willing to kill Rhea and the students. At this point, they were no different from the bandits that we normally kill in the FE games.
And yet most of the students who fought them, and killed most of their buddies, are still unnerved when Rhea decides to execute the survivors. That doesn't exactly scream 'swift executions are par of the course' in Fodlan to me.
7 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:Unless you have any actual cases of this happening, no, they are not the same.
Claude's supports with Lorenz and Leonie. In both of them, he gets warned by his friends that he should keep a lid on his idea that nature, not the goddess, is responsible for fertility, because it would be grounds for heresy. That doesn't seem like the sort of environment when outspoken contestation is allowed to exist.
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31 minutes ago, Timlugia said:
Makes me wonder why didn’t TWSITD bombs Enbarr on Edelgard’s victory celebration (CF mural), they could rid off whole imperial leadership in one hit since they already achieve what they want by killing Rhea.
I'm going to guess it's because the dubstep missiles can't actually be used willy-nilly, because even outside CF, missile strike to Enbarr during VW or SS (heck, even AM, I don't think Tharundel was the only one to know how to fire them) would have atomized both Edelgard, Rhea, the 'Fell Star' and their best elements in one move. And they're not the sort of choir boys to shy away from that type of tactics.
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Ow. Best of luck with this, Parrhesia.
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5 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:
- You yourself called her Arcibishop of Church. That's what I would call her. You can't be ruler without territory with people tied to it. Only people Rhea can boss around are ones paid to be ordered around, which means by very definition of that word she can't be ruler.
Beyond the spiritual leader part you forgets and the considerable influence a medieval pope could get, you forget that Rhea's goals, as said by herself, was imposing peace and order on Fodlan. From the moment she works to create and enforce such political situation... This is ruling. A hands off approach to the day to day stuff thanks to nobles doing that work, but it is still ruling. And she has an army with which she can potentially enfore that ruling, with mandate to act anywhere on Fodlan. Oh, and the political capital to broker deals between Kingdoms. And such a system require influencing and shaping the nobility the right way, an approach well-suited for an immortal controling the continent's faith (and education, the Church was doing that for the Middle Ages to better reinforce its power and influence, Rhea is smart enough to think of that even before the Officiers Academy)... Theoretically, because that rule clearly failed, and hard.
5 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:ITT the catholic church had no authority over medieval Europe because it didn't hold territory
HRE Emperors Frederick II (How dare he negotiate during a Crusade?) and Henry IV (Canossa) would surely like to discuss that point. And the pope managed that one without real armies under his direct command. Pretty sure Rhea can manage one better.
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9 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:
It doesn't matter if they are part of world, they are not product of society. It wasn't result Aztecs flawed system (their society was terrible, but that's different matter) that they basically annihilated by Spanish soldiers. TWSitD are just more sneaky, but their abilies cannot be coped by normal means.
Except Aztec society was one of the root causes of their downfall. The Aztec Empire was actually the Tenochtitlan Empire, with one city and some relatively closer allies beating up and browbeating other cities under their rule through sheer rule of strength, while getting prisoners slaves for these sacrifices they held so often, and being embroiled in several wars with other political entities of the region. And no 'colony', just Tenochtitlan, so the city was actually quite isolated in the big order of things.
It meant Cortez had no shortage of disgruntled Mesoamericans to ally for getting auxiliaries and the numbers of troops actually needed to besiege Tenochtitlan and just fight his war, that the Aztecs' defeats led to more defections from disgruntled subjects and allies not really profitting from the political situation anymore, something compounded by the fact Tenochtitlan was the main target. Nobody was rushing to help the pricks because their only actual bonds of them were those of might, which had just been shattered by the conquistadores, and once Tenochtitlan were gone, goodbye to any form of unity, allowing the Spanish troops to finish the conquest later, piecemeal. The Incas got the same problem, except the ' extreme centralization' was embodied by the emperor, plus a civil war of succession helping to get in there in the first place.
Mesoamerican empires fell in big part because their societies had big faillings which allowed the few hundred of Europeans to destroy them so utterly. The mole men are also exploiting Fodlan's failings.
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1 hour ago, LilyRose said:
And finally, since your head canon says that not many people died in Edelgard's war then by all means go with it. My head canon says that a continent wide war that raged for over five years is going to be far more deadly than some random bandit attacks.
I get the impression you keep missing that one, but here it is again: Shamir and Alois Paralogue, Alliance can't even defend its own capital against a pack of pirates, and the ducktards pretend they are Almyrans, so I dare say such a thing should trigger a priority answer when they attack your duchy's freaking capital and big money-maker. If the situation is reaching that freaking point in the Alliance, these attacks certainly don't look remotely minors, and man Fodlan doesn't look remotely peaceful. And most Paralogues are about established noble houses unable of jugulating that banditry too. That level of low-key anarchy looks like a pretty bloody situation to me, and is clearly not something that happened in one day, some build-up had to happen. And anarchy like that to the size of the continent would be accumulating quite the body count, and welp, that looks like something quite close to constant warfare by itself. Because of course, going by Lorenz and Ignatz and Raphael's Paralogues, you get petty wars between nobles, nobles trying their own hand to banditry, rebellions which have to be crushed (Lysitheia got to feel that one pretty bad)... Seriously, the whole continent is falling apart. Because I'm sorry, when groups of armed people are killing themselves everywhere, that is a form of warfare, and one the current nobility seems unable to contain when they are not joining the slaughter.
And also, I guess you'll say headcanon, but my memories of history and things like 'Pax Romana' tells me that you can rebellions aplenty even during 'peace times', so i will wonder how many Lonatos got the axe accross the centuries, because again, you don't reach a point where the ruler of half the continent can go 'Fuck the Church' during medieval times and not have their country fall apartnor at least no major intern troubles beyond mole people rocking the boat where they can because of that deicision without some serious institutional failure from the Church.
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5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:
Bolded the first: are you kidding? Just in lifetime of the game's principal characters, there has been a (genocidal!) invasion of Duscur by the Kingdom, constant skirmishes between the Kingdom and Sreng and between the Alliance and Almyra, a major conflict between the Empire and Dagda + Brigid, and multiple armed rebellions within the Kingdom. We must have a very different definition of war if those do not count for you. In particular, Faerghus's entire culture is a culture of war (Felix mentions that he learned to swing a sword before he could write his name, and that this is normal!). The Church of Seiros has done a good job of preventing war between one Fodlan power and another, but I don't think that's any consolation to the people who are constantly suffering from all these conflicts (as well as what appears to be an extremely high rate of banditry, at least in the Kingdom).
Heck, and just look at the other three paralogues in the Alliance:
Raphael/Ignatz: Corrupt nobles slaughter merchants for the pettiest pretexts, using monsters.
Lorenz: While being targetted by other corrupt nobles for petty wars.
Alois/Shamir: The kicker. The knights go to defend Deirdriu. Seat of power of House Riegan, capital of the Alliance and its main trade port, and henceforth main money-maker, from pirates, because no one else is available for the job. When a noble house can't muster the troops to defend its own capital and money-maker like that against bandits, even/especially ones caliming to be Almyran troops, it's generally a sign that things have gone to shit.
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5 hours ago, Rose482 said:
With how many people got hurt by the crest system, it would make those people not want to force their children to go through the same thing if they have the power to stop it, right? And with Byleth becoming the head of the church, that would only make things more simple. I'm sure it's not as easy as I'm making it sound to be, but I honestly won't see the push to keep a system which is hurting a lot of people to stay if enough people wanted it gone.
Euh, not wanting to be a cynical wet blanket or anything, but inertia in society can be a mean thing, and you'd be surprised how many people maintain a system they dislike because they just can't imagine the world can change so tremendously. And honestly, many students in the academy show signs of that mindset in Supports and their behavior (Sylvain, Ingrid, Mercedes, Marianne... Pre-support, there is some serious degree of resignation to their position in life). They also sho the potential of moving past these issues, yes, but that is not an easy route by any means. And that's without interference of the rest of the corrupt nobility, who already tanked reforming in two countries already, and the mole men who want to rock the boat. And there is the fact that deep enough changes will become contestations of the Church's power by virtue of questioning one of its core creeds and showing it is not actually true. Real Life Churchs never took to such things gracefully, and... Rhea doesn't exactly strike me as the sort of open-minded person able to see this happen without reacting violently.
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On 9/21/2019 at 1:14 AM, LilyRose said:
I don't know if I would call it good or bad but it was certainly the more prudent choice on her part. Theoretically, she could have lived another 1000 years or more why would she trust Claude, the master schemer, with all the secrets of her kind. Let's be honest, her race haven't had the greatest track record with people knowing who they are and not using it against them. But when she knew that she was dying she did tell them so it's not like she took all of her secrets to the grave.
Because by that point her system had utterly collapsed, Claude made it clear he knew about the buullshitting, and, welp, said bullshitting had been one of the factors leading to the whole bloody mess? Like he said, by that point, time for secrecy was very much over. If anything I'd hold how long it took her to fess up against her. Because she refused to acknowledge her mistakes up to her deathbed. Again, my dream ruler, Rhea is most emphatically not.
On 9/21/2019 at 1:14 AM, LilyRose said:"Humanity Fuck No" is definitely not what I wrote. It is very easy to dump all of the bad things in Fodlan at the foot of Rhea as if all wayward behavior can be attributable to one person. So, looking at other contemporary countries should give us a glance at what is possible without the influence of Rhea or crests. And when we look at those countries, we find that they are in no better shape than Fodlan but they don't have crests and Rhea holds no sway in those areas, so why are they stumbling and falling? And it has nothing to do with "Rhea's system failed too", that's not the point. The point is that we know of the existence of five countries in the 3H's universe and all those countries have societal issues plaguing them. All five countries with different cultures, different Gods, different languages and the only common denominator is humanity. Does that mean that I think humanity should be wiped out? Of course not! But I do think that Sylvain's statement about how there will be another war eventually because humans thrive on conflict is true and that truth shines a whole different light on what's going on in Fodlan.
Yes. But in Fodlan, Rhea had a direct hand in shaping society in Fodlan for one thousand years, in the name of her own brand of ruling. And that makes Fodlan's failures very much hers.
On 9/21/2019 at 1:14 AM, LilyRose said:
Also, Byleth is a lot more than just Byleth after she merges with Sothis, of course even before she merged with Sothis she was no ordinary human. Sothis gave Byleth the power of the Progenitor God which allowed her to cut a hole between dimensions (!) to release herself from the realm of darkness (that is a lot more than some "limited time travel"). The fact that she survives a fall that would have killed any regular person, then sleeps for five years at the bottom of a canyon to recover, makes it seriously debatable if Byleth can be considered human at all. When Sothis wakes Byleth from her slumber, she speaks as if she and Byleth are indeed the same entity, so the Goddess didn't disappear she just became one with Byleth (or at least a part of her did considering Rhea's s-support). We know that Indech, Macuil and even Thales consider Byleth as an incarnation or extension of Sothis. While Seteth and Flayn certainly think of her as one of them and if you s -support Seteth there is even more evidence to suggest that they are correct. So Byleth is already an immortal leader, right? I mean it is written in the Byleth/Flayn ending that he is ageless and if the fall off a mountain won't kill her what can?
But ultimately, Sothis isn't in the driving seat, hell she isn't even driving shotgun, only showing up after the end in one specific scenario. Ultimately, it is Byleth alone, with 'bonus' powers, yes, but it is Byleth, and that's it. Some people can choose to link them and Sothis more closely, but ultimately, I dare think Byleth would have taken similar choices without the hair and eyes color change. Yes, I know that would suppose moving past the several points where the fusion with Sothis gave them the means of surviving some of the ordeals on the way. But ultimately, that fusion only cleared these obstacles, the rest is pretty much the professor/teach.
FE4 (O-sawa Mitsuki) Manga Translation Continued (Chapter 70 up)
in NES and SNES Era
Posted
Ouch for all this stuff, I hope it will get better for you from now on. The job done with this translation has been awesome so far, hearing of progress is just nice.