SigurdVII

Edelgard doesn't have a shortened lifespan and Lysithea's lifespan is restored in a bunch of her endings.

I mean for someone who says they're not an Edelgard fan, I'd say you have a more sober take on her as a character than most of the people I've seen who say they feel that way. But yeah, regardless of how one feels about Edelgard, her objectives are not the same as Rhea's. Her goal demands that the Church has to go and her power as the emperor comes with the price that she work with TWSITD (since Arundel is the Empire regent). Rhea for her part has no reason to give up her own power for Edelgard or disintegrate a system that her own power is based around. For her money, working with the Church and then overthrowing the weaker faction that supplied her with power before they get more. Either way, acknowledging that there's a clock hanging over her puts a lot of her actions in perspective.

Which is my problem with it overall. It's an entertaining story, but it's at odds with itself to a bizarre degree. Having Berkut and Fernand ramble about the inherent superiority of nobility only to be proven right when Alm can only accomplish his goal because of his royal blood.

We know it has a Crest Stone of Maurice because it's on the concept art. You can see it clearly in the final cutscene of CF anyway.

The Agarthans hate Rhea because her people ruled over humanity as gods and drove them underground (check the dev interview if you don't believe me). Nobody is arguing that their desire for revenge didn't corrupt them. Same thing with Rhea. The game is filled to the grim with people who have Inigo Montoya-esque revenge complexes for a variety of reasons. None of them are in the right for abusing their power in exercising them.

Speaking as someone who actually has a family past with genocide and researches it for a major yeah... I have to agree. Part of why I have trouble feeling sympathy for Rhea is because of her past. It's not a pass for her actions. And it gets worse when you consider that she's had time to change things and either did nothing (i.e. overlooking corrupt nobility), or actively making it worse (allowing the Agarthans to help create the Kingdom). She is a victim, but her actions are not remotely justifiable considering she has power and access that literally no one else does in Fodlan. When you consider that she helps recreate the same atrocities that created her (i.e. the fact she lets the true parties behind Duscur slip by and allows the Kingdom to slaughter innocent people), my ability to sympathize with her is precious minimal.

I don't know how it would be a debate. Claude already proved he's not a neutral party by doing his best to orchestrate conflicts between the Alliance lords in order to keep his grip on power. The very fact he shut down Derdriu and brought in Almyrans to back him up despite the history between them and the Alliance is proof enough. The game even describes him at several points as maintaining a "facade of neutrality" and being the leader of the anti-Imperial faction of the Alliance alongside Holst and Judith. Either way, had Claude not already done everything he could to interfere with Edelgard, there wouldn't have been a fight between them. But he had his own goals that required him to defeat her, hence why he admits that he wanted to become Fodlan's supreme king if he hadn't lost. I don't know how people forget that in Fodlan Claude is not royalty, he's just a sovereign duke. To become a ruler of Fodlan would mean he's taking for himself, which means he was going to take on Edelgard eventually. And as far as the Alliance, Claude gives it free and clear. All Edelgard originally wanted was for the three houses that pledged themselves to her (Cordelia, Gloucester, Edmund) to join her cause. Claude is dead set on uniting Fodlan in every route, hence his handing it over free and clear to whoever the winner is if he thinks he can work with them.

- I watched that scene. Byleth doesn't even react. They just get blasted off a cliff. It's also the same scene where they solo three Crest Beasts that Rhea was having trouble with. - Of course. Everyone respects Byleth as their teacher (or in Edelgard's case their mentor/life coach), and as a tactician. But it's also undeniable the Sword of the Creator is an advantage in and of itself. The very fact that Edelgard and Claude both regard Byleth's presence alone as a turning point in CF is meant to represent that. -I mean we're arguing game themes at this point. No one becomes close to Byleth outside their native route. Not Claude. Not Dimitri. Not even Edelgard. They just don't get that close. And Claude already knew Byleth as a teacher and had a friendship before he starts trying to use his power to his advantage. This is also the same route where Byleth questions Claude's intentions post-TS. So imagine how that goes in a route without that familiarity? - Of course, and I don't remotely disagree with that. There's a certain level where Claude's trust just runs out (also I'm glad we agree on this, people don't seem to realize just how much there is going on with him 🙂 ) and he holds back, but I don't think you can even pierce that basic barrier without the relationship Byleth and Claude have as teacher and student in Verdant Wind. - But we see that the legends are true. All of the Relics are capable of standing against armies. The simple fact that its full power would be akin to friendly fire is likely why we don't see the feats Nemesis and the Ten Elites commit to replicated. Seiros only wins anyway due to her being a far better close combatant and disarming Nemesis. - The latter. We also see Byleth doing more Nemesis-esque feats once he attains the Progenitor God's power (i.e. cutting out of Zahras, wrecking Crest Beasts by himself). Yeah, people seem to forget that Edelgard has less political power than Dimitri does. Owing to the fact she was a literal hostage in the dungeons, and the Insurrection removing the political power of the Emperor. She pretty much had to instigate a coup with the backing of the original Insurrectionists who had power (Hevring, Bergeliz, and likely Arundel) just to get to a position of real power. Point being Dimitri doesn't really have an excuse to believe Edelgard was responsible, the whole point of his "revenge" is that it's in his head. Edelgard doesn't care about reuniting the Empire as some form of Adrestian supremacy. If she did, she wouldn't be interested in ending hereditary rule or attempting to end the Church and Crest lineages in the first place. Nor does she intend to occupy the whole Alliance or the Kingdom in the first place. Claude forces the issue in CF by refusing to let willing houses leave, and Dimitri joins Rhea and inserts himself into the war. She only ever declares war on the Church in all routes. As far as whether she intended to assassinate Claude and Dimitri. That's entirely left up in the air. Namely that she never even specified that they had to die. In the JP version Kostas was only told to kill a few/several nobles. They only end up in danger because Claude tries to abandon everyone and Dimitri and Edelgard follow him. The game implies in the same chapter Jeritza was supposed to be a shoo-in for next teacher, she also doesn't show any interest in them for the rest of the pre-TS so... And that being said, it was never that simple. Dimitri is part of a country that's subservient to the Church. Dimitri himself doesn't actually have a problem with Crests or nobility. He thinks they need an adjustment, not to be done away with outright. Point being there wasn't room to work with him. And Claude himself well... If you play Golden Deer, she does actually try to talk to him. He more or less makes an impossible demand of her (Join me and maybe I'll tell you more about myself), which even Byleth can call him out about. Not to mention the manifesto she sends in CF explaining her actions. Point being it isn't as simple as "Why didn't she talk?" she does. People simply have their own reasons for working against her.

- Which again is down to gameplay mechanics rather than the reality. We see in the very first cutscene that the Sword of the Creator and the Ten Elites' Relics are capable of mass slaughter on their own. The Lance of Ruin alone is Faerghus's national defense program against Sreng. And again, Byleth and the Sword of the Creator are essential to Edelgard's victory in CF, she states this, Claude himself cites Sensei being alive as a big problem for him. - He wasn't being serious. If you recall the context of the conversation, Edelgard comes to him, and he's more or less making an impossible demand to her (help me and maybe I'll tell you what you want to know). And again the reality is Byleth and Claude are not close in other routes, he may like Byleth, but that simply isn't the same as knowing them. Already having the closeness of being teacher and student is why Claude comes to rely on Byleth. Why Dimitri relies on Byleth. And why Edelgard and Byleth become closer in their respective routes. Without those bonds, Claude doesn't really reach out to him. And again, he changes his perception of Byleth because he views them as close as siblings pre-TS. - He does, but he's also searching for the power of the Relics in general because of the anomalies surrounding them. You're severely underestimating their power based off of gameplay when the lore and the cutscenes are pretty clear that they're pretty damned powerful. Claude watches Byleth perform a literal miracle cutting his way out of the darkness. How is that not proof positive of its power? The only reason we don't see Byleth and the others use the Relics to the extent that Nemesis and the others did is because they're too powerful to be used without harming other people. Look at the very first cutscene.

- It's more down to wanting Byleth's help rather than simply that of the Sword, but my point is that in CF Byleth's presence is the tailwind the Empire needed for the war to shift in their favor. - He knows them well enough that he's willing to make the attempt to try to get close to them. They simply don't have that opportunity in other routes, again for the same reason that while Edelgard may love Byleth in other routes, they're not intimate with one another. Neither are Claude and Byleth outside Golden Deer, that's why he becomes more nakedly desperate in other routes to cling to what little power he has. - Being skeptical is great and all, but it doesn't change that the legends are all he has to work from. When he finds alternative information, he jumps on it. But up until then, the only thing he can scrutinize are the contradictions between the Church's canon and the reality as you noted. And seeing as he never has a reason to distrust the Sword of the Creator from watching Byleth in action, why wouldn't he covet its power?The only reason Edelgard even knows not to trust Seiros is because she has information no one outside the Church or the Agarthans do (that the Church is a sham, that Nemesis wasn't a fallen hero, and that the Ten Elites were slaughtered by Seiros.)

In case you're interested, this is what Thales doesn't say in the EN version of the Shambhala map. Thales: その憎き仇が、今、この地に自ら現れた。となれば、我らのなすべきはただ一つ・・・・！ Thales: And now, our most hated enemy has decided to appear on our own land by their own accord. In other words, there is only one thing left that we have to do...! And for the sake of clarity. The Calamity Star thing is a reference to a series of disaster stars in Chinese astrology Sirius/Sothis is one such star. It's a fancy way of saying Byleth is bad luck for them. But otherwise, the False Goddess thing is exclusive to Seiros. It makes more sense in the JP version where Rhea goes out of her way to much more overtly refer to the Goddess and center herself as her voice.

Point by point. - Edelgard does in fact rely on the Sword of the Creator. She's the one who refers to it as capable of routing either the Adrestian Empire or the Seiros Knights. While she is prepared to face Byleth if it comes to it, her situation grinds to a halt because Faerghus joins forces with the Seiros Knights to take her on. Byleth is explicitly considered the turning point by her and Claude in the Empire's situation. Not to mention several times when she says only Byleth will be able to take on the Church's true power. -And the reason why Claude doesn't make the token effort is for the same reason Edelgard doesn't take off her mask outside her own route. They're not not close. Claude already knew Byleth for several months before he acquired the Sword of the Creator. Therefore it was easier for them to become closer to each other (point of fact, in the JP version Claude declares them siblings just before the TS). So it was easier for him to initially try to manipulate Byleth, but then become close to one another. But he doesn't see a way when Byleth rejected him in other routes. - You're forgetting that as far as Claude knows from the legends, the Sword of the Creator can split mountains. He has no other information otherwise. Just as Omega noted, he doesn't know that the Ten Elites worked for Nemesis rather than vice versa. He's like Edelgard in that as far as he knows, the legends of the Sword being badass are true. And even in the opening movie, we're not left with much reason to doubt that.

They don't. The Agarthans only refer to Sothis twice. Solon when Byleth cuts his way out of Zahras. And Thales when Byleth confronts him in Shambhala. Otherwise whenever they or Edelgard refer to the False Goddess, it's always about Seiros. Thales makes this clear twice. Once in SS/VW in the JP version when he refers to their most hated enemy. And in CF when he talks about how he came to watch humanity finally be remove from the control of the False Goddess. The implication being that Sothis isn't the person they regard as responsible for their situation, but Seiros and the Nabateans. And given how they explicitly blame the Nabateans for stealing their light, there's quite a bit being hinted at rather than what Seiros claims to be the case.

Yes, but not to the extent that the Sword of the Creator is. The Church is in shambles after five years, as opposed to when they're at peak strength in CF. It's more gameplay than anything else that creates the illusion of it not being much more powerful than the average relic. But the Sword is explicitly described by multiple people as being powerful enough to destroy mountains, armies, etc. Nemesis losing is down to him taking on Seiros who may have been blessed by the Progenitor God too (she mentions having been blessed by Sothis as well and has the same class mastery ability as Byleth's Enlightened One class). It's impossible to deny the power of the Sword of the Creator as being important to Claude when he's shown searching for it at multiple points and straight up says to Byleth he wanted to use their power to his advantage.

His plans in Verdant Wind are only possible because he has the wielder of the Sword of the Creator on his side. He's also shown to be investigating the Relics in general.