[Theme of Conquest]

I just don't remember anyone saying Conquest was bad because it lacked a theme or a statement about the human condition.

[Theme of Conquest]

Takes me back to when I was accosted by a whole forum.

But not the admins.

And I didn't make the thread.

And I was called disingenuous for a position I never stated.

And said forum had a reputation for being biased on the subject.

And nobody was ballsy enough to just directly confront so I just cut my losses.

All in all, not much like this situation.

[Theme of Conquest]

Hatred being bad is a little weak to hang an entire game on without really exploring the theme and all the ways hate infects or twists people.

I feels like, based on how Conquest handled it, they made an entire game out of the kind of character gimmick you'd get in a support chain.

[Question about 3h in Japanese (Doro Lin Supports)]

On 9/20/2020 at 11:18 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's hardly insane. We know she "buttered up" a noble. That could be anywhere from flirting to sex or something in between. Whatever it is, she felt she needed to do it, and she seems hurt by others suspecting it, so it's clear that she at least feels some shame for it. I don't think her having contempt for the nobles who propositioned her, or having a moral code disapproving of them, says anything about what she did or didn't do. Their behaviour is not analogous to hers (they are immensely privileged, she is not). Her actions don't invalidate her beliefs of what's right and wrong.

Yeah, Japan puts more emphasis on female virginity/purity and I've heard that floated as a reason that Dorothea is less popular there (although it's hard to confirm for sure). If true, it doesn't reflect very well on the Japanese fanbase IMO.

Even your own words I quoted here reveal how problematic those views are. Is Dorothea less "good" and "wholesome" if she felt pressured into using her sexuality to escape from poverty? I certainly don't think so. And I really hope you aren't arguing this from the perspective of just wanting to believe she's "wholesome" yourself.

I think it's also worth considering that even if Dorothea had traded sexual favours to get where he is, the game would likely want to be very circumspect about this fact, precisely because of the negative reaction this knowledge would generate from parts of the fanbase. In-universe, Dorothea herself would also want to be circumspect about it, if the mores surrounding such things in any way resemble those of our world. So for multiple reasons it's not surprising that she doesn't talk openly about it, even before accounting for the fact that 3H has a tendency to avoid talking about sexual matters in general.

Late response obviously but while I don't agree Dorothea is a lesser person if she slept with someone I think the devs would know a lot of their audience would think that and tailor expectations accordingly. And she would be seen that way in a Medieval setting too. Her character would be written differently, imo, if she was meant to be "sullied."

And the main insight we're given into how likely she is to do, or not do, this sort of thing is what she says about being propositioned. In real life I'd agree that her words don't necessarily forbid breaking her own rules. But this is a story where we're only given little glimpses and what's said in Support conversations is meant to be taken seriously. Many of her support conversations would be rendered fairly pointless outside of just their specific circumstances if she slept with a Noble to get in. And I don't think trading several conversations to enhance one with no obvious new payoff is a good trade (the message about dwelling on your past is served fine by focusing on her being an orphan). 

I think they could have her anger at being used by some Noble fuel her worldview but they don't. What fuels her admonitions of people like Sylvain and Lorenz is what she tells Hanneman and Ferdinand: how her father treated her mother and how the same Nobles who would never have helped her as a vagrant conveniently loved her. The subtext of all that is that Dorothea was better than the environment she found herself in. And this carries over into many supports. Even with Bernadetta/Felix she says she had to crack skulls because some men would not accept no. That's a high level of defiance running through many supports. After establishing she's not what she seems like this her iddle support with Lindhart is a bad time to throw a curveball there. 

I'd also point out the game is not so circumspect with Sylvain or Manuela. So I don't think the game is simply "too polite" to be up front about it. Manuela herself admits to doing unsavory things, and Sylvain is seen as a louse by everyone (himself included). Meanwhile with Dorothea it's muddled with her responding to the rumors with talk about how she's an orphan in over her head, but also nonchalantly dropping how she got in to Manuela in their C support. And Manuela is not upset by this in any way after telling Dorothea to avoid becoming like her because it's just a nice, positive scene about how far her little protege has come. So if it's an innuendo with Lindhart it isn't here for some reason. 

And this is also where Dorothea's easy time lecturing people comes in. The game never treats Dorothea as ever unworthy of her goal. But it does treat Sylvain like that. And even Manuela. Both have to change in ways Dorothea does not. With Dorothea she has to try being more genuine rather than trying to force or entice her way into find a good suitor. She has to "be herself" but Manuela and Sylvain have to admit they're screwups and basket-cases before being forgiven and then rewarded. Just looking at hetero pairings here to keep it consistent among the three. And because it's about how Doro/Manuela relate to men and Sylvain to women.

[Question about 3h in Japanese (Doro Lin Supports)]

On 9/17/2020 at 5:21 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

"curried favour" is a pretty good translation for this. Another would be "ingratiate". Either way, sexual favours could in theory count as connotations from this word, (because she could have "ingratiated" herself by any means) but it'd be reaching, especially without further evidence. If I didn't know anything else about Dorothea, and heard this line, I'd think she was flattering or flirting with this noble, at most mildly leading him on - I wouldn't normally come to the conclusion that she had done anything with this guy. 

As for the soldier, I think the point of the gossip is that she didn't come to Garreg Mach based on merit, but on her wiles/charm - i.e. she's undeserving, and perhaps has gotten her way by flirting. But again, you wouldn't read his line as accusing her of trading in sexual favours. 

That is how Dorothea interprets the gossip as well. That she's in way over her head and fundamentally just of a lower class despite it all. If it is an innuendo then nobody in game seems to get it. And we have good reason from her other support chains, and this one, to disregard even a slim possibility (in my opinion).

 

14 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Three Houses is so unwilling to talk about sex directly that it's hard to say for sure, so there's room for the player to believe what they want. I find the shame Dorothea expresses in her Linhardt support is congruent with a person who probably has traded some manner of sexual favour to get where she is, moreso than someone who just flirted. It fits her self-hatred that she did something that society considers wrong in order to get to Garreg Mach. But I respect interpreting differently.

I will say that regardless of the truth Dorothea absolutely deserves our sympathy for her actions. She came from utter poverty and was placed in an environment which was clearly dangerous and exploitative (see various supports), and used her talents to try to find a way out, and reach financial stability. Looking down on her for that comes across as incredibly priveleged. It's easy to say moralizing things like "she shouldn't lecture Sylvain if she's had loveless sex for personal gain herself" but that completely ignores the social conditions outside her control which made her feel this was her only good option. Many people in Dorothea's position have had to make similar choices in our own world, and we should not have contempt for them out of some misplaced overvaluation of a woman's "purity".

I don't disagree but it feels wrong for the character to me because of lines the one I quote below being her "formative experience." And it feels a little insane she'd need to sleep with someone just to get what sounds like a recommendation. Or that she'd be willing to instead of simply looking for another one. This is a girl willing to turn down marriage offers from distant admirers and scoundrels after all. Turning down what she most wants and would open more doors for her; and is attending school to get. She constantly speaks ill of those who try to bribe her affections, and not just as a lowly act but a fruitless one.

I find this line the most telling:

Dorothea: He'd had a child with a maid, but the child didn't have a Crest... So he threw them both away. Those were his very words. I can't prove that he really was my father, but... I suppose it doesn't matter. He didn't know who I was, and when he flirted with me, my feelings were something beyond fury. I was dumbfounded. In truth, I felt that way about all of the nobles who flocked around me, yet would just as easily have tossed me away should it better suit them. 

It's clear she learned from her own deductions (you could even say this is a prejudice she has, since it's tied to her dislike of Nobles) and the mistakes of others than firsthand experience. And I tend to feel we should prioritize what is definite over what is very tenuous. She has a lot of lines like the above, and they're always so much more important and emphatic than a vague innuendo, so it's clear the writers want us to see her this way. And they do nothing to subvert these expectations.

In fact, they even bring along Yuri to all but tell the player that Dorothea is a good wholesome girl. That's probably not an accident. She wasn't that popular in Japan, probably because she's essentially an idol who is dating multiple men, so this was decided as the final statement on her. Because it's an A support with the main dlc character. And he's a guy who knows secrets and has a cynical outlook. His unvarnished praise and comparative shame toward Dorothea is pretty serious.

Spoilering because I wrote too much but more of a direct answer is here:

Spoiler

It's less that I feel she'd be hypocritical to admonish casual relationships if she'd had one but more that the righteous indignation the writers give her is more tonally consistent with someone who resisted said temptation. Which she clearly had many times just from her supports. Feels like those anecdotes lose their meaning otherwise. And if that was the intention then that conflict should be better explored than a support where she's worried people know she's an unwanted foundling.

IMO if they wanted to challenge overemphasis on purity it's a mistake to have done it this way. So I don't think it was their aim. They want Dorothea to be quite justified in her takedowns of false suitors, and they want her to be even overzealous in her worldview by false applying it to Ferdinand. This makes sense for someone suspicious, protective of herself, and risk averse. And the formative motive we're given for this is the excerpt from Hanneman B quoted above. 

If it was instead the result of being "used" I'd imagine they make that quite clear but they'd likely soften Dorothea's personality to make it very sympathetic and unjust for the kind of gamer most likely to judge her for it. They'd want her transparently acting out of regret and shame. But that's just what I think. I don't think they gave us that and what elements are shared are not immediately obvious. They're not in her outward behavior but internal factors to explain that behavior.

 

[Question about 3h in Japanese (Doro Lin Supports)]

1 hour ago, Flying Shogi said:

Strictly from a definition standpoint, it's not. No clue on the connotation of the word though.

 

Going off of this line alone, the English text gives the audience insight to her self reflection where she mentions being selfish whereas the Japanese text doesn't mention that and is more straight to the point but it does leave room for interpretation: "For the sake of the orphan that I was, I curried favor with a noble to enroll at the academy." Some creative liberties were taken to make it sound smooth in English but that's how the original text goes.

Very nice. Anyway not on me to prove there isn't  connotation anyway. Thank you for your help.

I always found the assumption Dorothea slept with some sleazy noble because of a possible innuendo in English to be a little small-minded. I mean they give her carte blanche to lecture someone like Sylvain on love and commitment after all, and stress that she's allergic to being treated as a casual fling in at least half her supports. It would be a little incongruous. 

[Question about 3h in Japanese (Doro Lin Supports)]

23 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said:

You can use this site to view Dorothea and Linhardt's Japanese supports (the language select is in the upper right corner), though you'll have to translate them into English yourself.

Thank you. Looking it over myself. Google translate, while imperfect, is doing a good job. Getting recognizable sentences that are of a kind to the English with no big deviations.

"incorporate into the aristocrats" in her B+ support seems to be to the critical phrase. If 'aristocrats' is indeed plural then it definite she's more guilty of sucking up and being accepted by them. Otherwise it comes down to if the verb has an ulterior meaning. Still the focus is on her being an orphan and unworthy to be around these rich, pedigree'd kids after that.

I don't think  に取り入って is an innuendo anyway. 

Since I do not know the language I use little tricks like breaking up the phrases into smaller bits to see what the 'components' are to infer what the meaning is and り入って is "to enter" which is a verb she's enacting and fits with the sucking up idea.

Hopefully someone who knows better arrives.

@Flying Shogi

Yep. Also looking at her own explanation on B+ since it's her "confession" moment.

EDIT: should post her whole line

私は自分のために、貴族に取り入って、 学校に来た。孤児だった私が、よ。

 

which means "I took in the aristocrats and came to school for myself. I was an orphan."

 

of a kind with "Selfish as I am, I curried favor with a noble so I could enroll here. An orphan like me, here. Crazy, right?"

[Question about 3h in Japanese (Doro Lin Supports)]

I remember someone somewhere once telling me that in Japanese it's "made clear" that Dorothea slept with, or kissed or something, a Noble to be enrolled at the Monastery. And I am curious if anyone knows more.

It would be in the B supports between Linhardt and Dorothea. In English it's a vague notion of getting a favor, which is how it's described in her C support with Manuela as well. Using connections.

The claim feels odd as the ultimate point of said chain (w/ Lin) was how Dorothea doesn't actually have anything to be ashamed of. And feels incongruous with how she's upset people know she's an orphan and really doesn't belong (in her view). Also just seems wrong for the character who is supposed to know better than trust some pervert's word he'll do right by her if she just gives up what he wants first. She's able to get gifts and favors just for existing after all so desperation shouldn't be an option either.

As you can tell I'm skeptical. Largely because the one claiming this never elaborated when I asked for proof and my experience in fandoms is when someone says "I'm right in Japanese" they're making it up; but also it never fit tonally which I don't think translation can change too much. Not to mention how it seems every other translation inaccuracy is well reported but this one is not (despite being a bigger deal than if Manuela discovered her talent or not).

But I figure I'd see if anyone knows better. Leif of Leinster on tumblr is taking a break and they've done the translations I've referenced in the past so I'm broadening the net.

If anyone can answer or tell me where I can look I'd very much appreciate it. 

[Why Edelgard von Hresvelg is the most hated girl?]

Because she was the antagonist for a lot of people + "grrrr she's so popular!"

Social Media has a tendency to destroy nuanced thought as well. And make people take their fiction too seriously. So rather than, say, evaluate Edelgard with respect to her role in something not actually real they just "hate her". And this sentiment is reinforced by fandom factions as well. 

[Unstated Reason Why Dorothea Left the Opera (?)]

19 hours ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

It's the whole issue of people on pedestals and friendships/romance. You don't know if someone want to be with you because they like you, or they want your money/fame/prestige/influence/whatever.

and she wants to do it while she's still young and can give someone her best years so expedience does matter. Taking it slow is a risk, as Manuela shows.

[Unstated Reason Why Dorothea Left the Opera (?)]

12 hours ago, Zihark11 said:

its because she wanted to find someone to live her life with. Her whole thing is that she only has 2 things going for her, her looks and her voice and after that is gone she will end up right back where she started, on the streets of enbarr. her choice to enroll was to find a suitor for herself so that she wouldnt have to go back to the life that scares. 

I think this matters too. I mentioned this. She was never gonna find someone, or it would at least take forever, in a situation like the Opera.

[Unstated Reason Why Dorothea Left the Opera (?)]

Probably because she can drop fire and is now a renowned war hero. Or maybe she thought rebuilding the opera was more important. She could already handle herself okay before, now she's more dangerous to them than vice versa.

[Unstated Reason Why Dorothea Left the Opera (?)]

I was wasting time indoors the other day and when listening to Yuri's supports something clicked for me. Dorothea's reasons for leaving the opera for the Monastery's Officer Academy always felt a little under explained by her. She wanted to find a husband she had actually bonded with, and follow Manuela after seeing she "made it" on the outside and didn't need the opera  to thrive. But I also think Dorothea left because of the following:

1. Yuri is the boy from Bernadetta's past. The presumed cruel brutality visited on said boy made Bernadetta afraid of being friends with a commoner.

2. Dorothea reassures Bernadetta that she'll be fine. Having been targeted and survived kidnapping attempts (and worse) in the Opera.

3. Yuri, the same boy, in his support with Dorothea indicates that Dorothea was intensely desired by Nobles and since she refused to grant "access" to them would desperately seek out replacements

4. This would also explain why she was targeted. If she was willing to give the expected quid pro quo there would not be as strong a motive. And as time passed only more and more Nobles would likely be trying to take her for themselves or seek revenge for spurning them. 

While there's no confirmation of this connection it is an aspect of her past and decision-making that's often ignored, and the fact that the same character bridges these diffuse elements is at the very least a neat coincidence. 

I like it because it creates a strong reason for her to leave that she'd not want to trouble someone like Manuela with. Their support being a positive one about how Dorothea worked hard to reconnect with her surrogate mother. Makes it feel understated and subtle even if it otherwise would not be.