[Playthrough]

Laguz only is fun. One tip for that is to get Reyson to lv 30 ASAP since valor is invaluable.

[New Video Topic]

brb getting my 20 bucks from vykan

Huh?

[Debate Challenges]

again, people are lazy faggots that quit halfway through after starting something

Clearly, a lot of these debates end after one post it seems. Though, to be fair, you haven't replied to Tino yet :P

[Debate Challenges]

So why'd these topics die so badly all of a sudden?

[OMG it's a tier list]

The GM's don't need Paragon nearly as much, plus they get two in 3-11 anyway.

Although I agree the DB "want" the skill more, it's still an option that's available that's worth consideration as an alternative, which is all I meant by bringing it up.

Paragon on a staff user is great when you have Torch, Physic, and Recover and are likely using at least one of them every turn, where fighters aren't killing every turn. Besides, Micaiah can attack as well.

There's also the question of whether she can do anything meaningful with all that exp we're giving her. Micaiah's 20/20 spd average is only 21, which means she can't double anything in part 4 and will get doubled by some part 4 enemies. Even if her spd gets blessed, it's still only 25 at most, which still ain't doubling anything besides maybe enemy mages, whom will have too much res for her to 1 round. Her def and hp are still pitiful and the only good thing going for her statistically is her mag and res which both cap at 20/13. So, as far as I see it, not giving her paragon would give her a realistic chance of being 20/13/1 in 4-E while still having 32 mag and a good staff rank, so she can excel at healing just as I've been stating in other arguments.

Almost no one is one-rounding anything except Sothe and possibly someone with Beastfoe, so having her take kills can be very nice.

That actually means there's more exp to be gained since every attack is 30-40 exp for that paragon user, and you still have to kill the same number of enemies whether you 1RKO the map or 100RKO.

[Most hated chapter]

3-E. God, 80 total kills takes so long and I can't just do something else during enemy phase since there's always stupid cutscenes at like every turn. Total snooze fest.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Micaiah reaching 20/20/1 is actually very reasonable. She's arguably the best candidate for Paragon on 3-6 and possibly 3-12 and 3-13, and she can one-shot the armors and horses in 3-12 as well as getting Physic in 3-6 and another Physic in 3-13. In 3-6 she can also use the Torch if there is no one to heal.

You could cart off paragon to the GMs since they have more opportunity to use it, but wtv. I don’t see putting paragon on a staff user as being a very wise decision when you could put it on almost any attacker in 3-6 and have them level up every kill.

As for Destiny Hero

Eew, he's a turd.

Rofl, the logic is killing me, I am so compelled to move Sothe down because of his emo-ness and his third tier belly shirt, not to mention loli shmex with Micaiah.

I'd have to say no. Naesala and Tibarn just completely outclass them.

“Outclassing” is an irrelevant argument in a tier list. If you remove Shinon from the game, Rolf’s utility as a fighter doesn’t change. Thus, Shinon’s existence doesn’t make Rolf bad. The same applies when comparing Janaff and Ulki to Tibarn, plus they’re arguably better for having superior playtime despite being worse than Tibarn when he's around.

Eewww, SMACK! Low tier please.

Indeed, Mist is now low tier because Destiny Hero is Mist’s pimp daddy. Smack that ho!

[OMG it's a tier list]

If the fact that he's not going to be brought to endgame was relevant, you wouldn't have brought him up, would you? It's safe to assume in this comparison that Oliver will be taken to the endgame.

That’s not my problem with him, I said he’s taking up a slot that could be used better, thus giving him negative utility. You seem to be interpreting it as me saying he won’t be used and therefore his endgame performance shouldn’t be examined.

Anyway, he's much better in the endgame than Micaiah […]

I wasn’t ever comparing her to Micaiah, just that she gives you a forced deployed healer, hence decreasing the value of other healers you bring along, especially with the existence of the fortify. She doesn’t even need to be good to use it, if she had a pitiful 20 mag she’s healing 30 hp for anyone within 10 spaces of her, which is more than enough.

You went on about the Micaiah vs Oliver thing for a while, though there were some things that caught my attention.

So, now we're in the endgame. Micaiah's healing, Oliver's healing. Micaiah does nothing else, but Oliver can serve as a decent attacking unit. Why, you may ask? Simple. He starts with 18 Defense.

18 defence is horrible.

Oliver can defeat those armors at the start of 4-E-1 with the Nosferatu he comes with or the Valaura he got from Valtome.

Oliver also has 20 base spd, which means 4-E(1) generals are doubling him, and some of them have 40+ MT, so they’re doing between 30-40 damage to him. I’m amazed that Oliver can actually survive one of their attacks but that’s besides the point. If Oliver is getting doubled, he obviously isn’t doubling himself, and with only 31 base magic, he’s certainly not 1HKOing those armors. In fact, with a shine tome (the best tome before Rexaura, which you get from Lekain), he’s doing a pitiful 18 damage to gens. 3HKOing enemies while getting 2HKOed in return is about as good as Fiona’s earlygame.

His Weapon Level will rise quickly probably due to Discipline, since no one else wants to use it.

I actually find it more efficient to buy all the arms scrolls in the 4-E base since you’ve got nothing better to burn your money on, and that’ll get Micaiah her S rank in staves if she doesn’t have it already.

Now, he gets Rexaura. Besides healing, he's now able to kill stuff that doesn't suck! Sure, he's not one-rounding Lekain, but 2-rounding archers is not out of the question.

For him to be attacking archers, that’d mean he’s on the frontlines instead of sitting back in a deserted area popping physics or something, so kudos at him needing like 3-4 ppl to protect him at all times just so we can 2-3HKO enemies who can’t even counter at 1 range.

So that goes on for a while. Oliver lols at White Dragons in 4-E-3, and lols at the Spirits in 4-E-4.

Or rather, white dragons lol at him. They have 67 hp and 36 res so Oliver with Rexaura is only 5RKOing them at base level, 3RKOing them at max level and even taking 2 rounds to kill them with max stats, an attack support and a corona activation! Then on defence, Oliver has at most 34 res according to avg stats while white dragons have 54 MT, so he’s getting 3HKOed by them. Don’t even get me started on red dragons, they eat people like Oliver for breakdast.

[…] and maybe killing a few Spirits with the remaining Nosferatus and Valauras he has left.

Lolno. Spirits have about 1.5 times Oliver’s speed, he couldn’t double them even if he got resolve to activate.

So umm, what was all this fallacious Oliver information based off of? Can’t have been personal experience.

[Smartest Person]

Why would Shinon be intelligent? He's just obnoxious.

My vote would probably be on Izuka since he is a cunning villain and also a bit of a tactician himself.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Uh, yeah. Oliver healing for 5 chapters > Lehran healing for 1. :/

What Oliver does is take up one of your 10 optional endgame slots to do something that a levelled Micaiah already can, and that other units can do better (Elincia, Mist, etc). Moreover, he requires protection in many chapters. Thus, having him on your team instead of a 1337 fighter or a superior healer is a bad thing.

Lehran, on the other hand, comes for free (recruitment requirements aside) so at worst he’s neutral towards the team. I hope by now there’s been ample evidence that he’s actually pretty awesome in that one chapter. To me at least, that easily makes him more useful than the magnificent fat man.

You didn't use Fortify in hard mode?

Because it seems to me that it's impossible to not have any casualties without it.

Pretty certain auras and Ashera have the same stats on HM as they do on NM, not sure about those pesky spirits.

What a character brings to the team can be put into a formula: stuff they add to the team minus stuff they are taking away from the team (be it money, flexibility, healing, etc).

Well a character coming with a good weapon is adding flexibility to the team, which kind of adds validity to the rhetorical question I posed earlier.

Lehran gives you healing and offense for one short chapter of three turns max length (1 and 2 turns have been done, but I think 3 is reasonable. In trade, you had to completely overturn your strategy for 3-7, probably risk death/reset since the Black Knight is hax, and Ike is also likely to get doubled.

2 turning it requires a fairly specific set of units chosen and very precise use of dragons, along with minimizing overkill damage performed on auras, among other things. I’d say the average player takes 5 or more turns to beat it. Yes I know the goal of a tier list is beating the game efficiently, but it doesn’t mean we assume the game is beaten in the lowest turn count possible, it just means that the more helpful a character is in helping to achieve a good turn count, the better.

[OMG it's a tier list]

So you honestly think Oliver healing for 5 endgame chapters > Lehran's performance?

[OMG it's a tier list]

Well, yeah. I agreed with him being the best for a chapter and still great for the next two, but it's not like he's necessary.

Again with the word necessary. No any individual unit is necessary for anything other than chapter specific requirements (mostly seizing). Closest thing to “necessary” you have is the BK in 1-9 but it’s not impossible to have Micaiah solo the level. You just need her to have blessed spd and give her resolve, and put her on a bush for the entirety of the chapter, and if you’re on NM, you’ll be battle saving at every opportunity. The next closest thing I can think of is Ike vs the BK. The hammer is hilariously powerful against him and Ike can stand on a def tile popping elixirs all day, so you don’t have to actively use Ike at any point of the game.

I think what you mean to say is his despite his combat prowess, the absence of his presence isn't nearly as big of a blow to the team as it could be. I'm not sure that really indicates anything, as a unit doesn't have to be spectucarly better than others to be the best (or among the best).

Eg/ suppose my army is made up of 1 Tibarn and 50 Nailahs. Tibarn is only slightly better than Nailah when both are at max stats, but he's still top tier.

Is that possible? Can Ike be dropped so he can attack the BK on his next turn but the BK can't attack him on the enemy phase?

The BK only moves on turn 10 or 11 if my memory serves me right, and there’s been claims it works.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Did you mean durability?

Yeah, whoops :S

[OMG it's a tier list]

There's nobody who doesn't know this already, including the people who made the list. The problem with Lehran is that he _is_ unavailable for 99% of the game, and has a ridiculous recruitment requirement that makes you go out of your way huge time. Again, it's like having to brawl with Fargus just to recruit Athos, except worse.

If you guys consider difficulty of recruitment as something that counts towards ranking, then Stefan should be bottom. You have to land on one specific square in a level of maybe 400 square units to recruit him, and only 3 characters can do it, not to mention it restricts those characters to going on that direction of the map. People like Aran would drop too, as he pops in as an unexpected reinforcement and has to be recruited by Laura, who has fail movement.

Also, if you're considering that as part of a ranking criterion, what about Ilyana's ability to cart items to the GMs, or Geoffrey being able to acquire a brave lance or lords having to land on seize squares?

Though, without even going down that path of logic, I don't think that attacking the BK is really that hard to pull off if you plan it in advance. Give the BK a bronze sword, give Ike a wind edge, give Haar celerity and savior, have him ferry his way to near the BK's location, drop Ike, have Ike attack at range, Haar rescues Ike and shoots off into the distance. Sure, it may have Haar doing all the work and Ike won't be able to recruit the hawks, but no one gives a **** about this map anyway since the enemies give craptastic experience and the goal of the map is to wait 12 turns. Even then, I'm sure Haar could take a pacifist route for the most part since a lot of the level is composed of water which hinders enemy movement.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Also, there's no guarantee she's getting the Brave Axe when Haar is around

Then use trades.

When they join, perhaps. However, Kieran has had 3 chapters of being one of your best combat units where Kyza has had nothing of the sort. Besides, I hardly find being 6HKO'ed at ~50% real a bad thing.

Correction: 2 chapters. He only shows up in 2-E when it's halfway done then has to waste another 2-3 turns to reach more than like 6 total enemies.

The laguz dominate? How? You have limited Olivi Grass and Laguz stones that you want to save for 2-E anyway, and although Lethe may one-round on occasion, her laguz bar shoots down. Mordecai is an awesome wall, I won't argue that. And then Nealuchi's gauge takes 5 turns to fill up. At that point the map is nearly done. 2-E is huge, so Brom can easily find some use on the left end at the stairs while Haar walls to the right and Elincia jumps around. Later on he's overshadowed but still usable.

Well someone has to power your offence. Heather ain't doin' it and Brom can only do so much, then you have Neph who's either sucking with her greatlance or doing pitiful damage with a javelin and having pretty piss poor durability either way, so Mordy, Lethe and Nealuchi are easily doing most of the work. I've never had a problem with the lack of gems/stones in the level so long as you trade them properly, and I don't like using laguz in 2-E since they don't have anything to gain from it aside from strike level and it's a def chapter so unless you're sending Haar to 1 round the boss with a hammer, there's no point in rushing the map.

Rhys will always have fail durability. Mist at least gains speed and luck to help her dodge and not be one-rounded (and that's before promotion), Laura gets better durability as well as being damn well necessary for her chapters and Micaiah is one-shotting a lot of enemies in part 1, as well as being able to heal later. All this > Rhys.

I don't know about Laura ever becoming durable but wtv, I thought you had Rhys in low but you actually have him in lower mid, so I won't argue about that anymore.

I disagree. Although he may be the best combat unit for one chapter, you still have great units like Sothe, Zihark, Volug, Tormod, and Vika to make things not-so-difficult. Then you get Nailah, Rafiel, and the BK later.

He can 1RKO any enemy in part 1 except Jarod, who he could 1RKO if he doubled him. He can also 1HKO a ton of enemies and never takes any damage, so he can also ferry and fight at the same time. Also, 1-E is hard even for your pre-promo,s as Zihark can get beaten up quite a bit even with supports, Volug has trouble doubling some stuff and Sothe is in the same boat as well. Tormod has durability problems and Vika has transform issues on top of her lackluster killing power and Rafiel has craptastic movement, which especially makes him hard to use with all those damn stairs and stuff. I'd say he's basically up there with Nailah and the BK on that chapter and I'd be willing to make a similar argument for 1-8 (those bandits are stupidly hard to kill).

And I really think you're overemphasising Gareth's abilities. Why go to all that trouble when you have Ena, who can at least survive without extra treatment and be used to beat the chapter just as fast?

First of all, it only provides trouble for him, he's not using up any resources aside from spirit water which are very inexpensive and come in an infinite supply. Second, you mention using Ena instead, but the best course of action is to use both of them. Remember you're allowed to deploy all but 2 units in the final chapter, and Sanaki, Sothe and Kurth make for good candidates to un-deploy.

[OMG it's a tier list]

However, he's only avaliable for one chapter. That kills him.

It still allows him to be better than people who hamper with your efficiency, so he could at least make for low tier.

By that time you DON'T need him

That never makes for a tier list argument because you don't need anybody.

Ashera Staff is hardly neccesary because you should already have fortify and matrona (if not, what did you use it on? Seriously.)

Matrona only heals 1 unit and you have up to 17, so I don't see why that was brought up. As for fortify, you could use it quite a bit in 4-E(3) since dragons have some ridiculous hit rates and damage.

I don't know the stats of the auras, but if he's doing 50 damage to Aura's, then he's taking 25.

How about you actually use Lehran instead of drawing these false conclusions? Ashera has mantle, which is the ultimate cheap skill (has the effect of nihil, fortune and a ton of other things).

Proof:

I'll admit I made a mistake as Lehran does 30-50 damage, not 40-50 since I made a stupid mathematical error.

Also, he's only doing two hits if both actually connect, and with Balberith's low hit rate, that's probably not going to happen. It's unlikely he'll even hit Ashera once with Balberith, let alone twice.

You don't seem to be too familiar with Lehran's stats. He has 40 skill and luck, which is already 120 hit right then, then you add in 75 hit for the balbeirth and 50 for Ike's leadership bonus. That makes for 210 hit, and auras have about 135 avo. That makes for 88 true hit, 92 if he's beside Ena. Don't see that as really being a poor hit rate, especially when most non-royals don't have 100 display in the first place.

He can kill aura's, but everyone can.

You complain about Lehran's ability to kill Ashera and yet claim that auras are easy to kill. That's a bit contradictory since auras have 90 hp and 30-40 def while Ashera has 120 hp and 35 def, which means auras and Ashera have practically the same durability relative to a physical unit. And no, killing auras is hard, the only person who can 1RKO a side aura without using all 3 dragons is a lion with a blood tide. Any beorc class with less than 34 spd cannot even double auras even with Nasir's help and every other class besides trueblades and Volke require Nasir to double them. Thus, under the most common circumstances, auras take anywhere from 2-5 rounds to kill, so Lehran being as good as a royal on corner auras is a very welcome contribution.

Even if he had completely godly stats all around

He does, in case you didn't notice.

50 hp, 40 mag, 40 skl, 40 spd, 40 luck, 23 def, 40 res, 135 avo and SS rank in staves and 2 weapons is incredible.

he'd still be an awful unit because he comes at the last chapter and contributes VERY little. At least the dragons give those haxy stat boosts, so they can be useful.

How is Lehran being able to heal your entire party and 2-3RKO any aura not be useful? Also, you're repeating yourself, I think you made the same point about availability 3 times.

[OMG it's a tier list]

You could give him Rexaura instead and he'd lose 1 MT. Micaiah's forced so blessing the Rexaura shouldn't be a major issue.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Lehran fails. Bottom of bottom. He shows up at the very last chapter with only a staff.

Which he can use to ensure none of your party members have to heal for 3 turns, particularly crucial if you ran out of fortify and hammerne uses.

Every enemy in that map has high resistance, so he's hitting for very little damage, and I believe on 3 on Ashera.

Auras have the same amount of defence as they do resistance. Spirits are pathetic enemies and Ashera is 3RKOed including Ike's attack.

Though more importantly, you're underestimating Lehran's damage potential. With the balbeirth, he does 40 damage to side auras and 50 damage to corner auras, and all this without dragon assistance, which is quite impressive. In comparison, a base level Tibarn is only doing 52 damage to side auras and 42 damage to corner auras. Then you take someone like Neph with the wishblade or Jill with the urvan and they're only doing 26 and 27 damage respectively to side auras. So, it seems to me that Lehran is actually one of your best attackers.

As for Lehran's damage on Ashera, he does 10 damage, not 3. 20 with Nasir.

And you have to TRADE him a tome, he doesn't come with one. Lehran being anywhere else but bottom of bottom is silly.

So just have a dragon trade him one. Ena and Kurth won't be doing much damage and Gareth has fail accuracy. Even Nasir will only pose 50ish hit rates.

[OMG it's a tier list]

I feel that Jill is too high on the list. In my past experiences on normal mode, she's never available for enough chapters to make her useful enough. On top of that, she's never able to hit anything, making her even harder to train, and she doesn't do much damage when she does hit.

Hit rate is fixed with a rather inexpensive forge.

As for availability, she has the same as Zihark (minus 1-8), as in 15 chapters, which is reasonably high, and she can boost that amount by swapping armies in 3-7.

[OMG it's a tier list]

He's the best overall character in part 1, has an auto A with Micaiah and can get majorly uber transfers. Both get worse later in the game, so I can't see how Titania's better.

Uhh Titania doesn’t get worse until 4-E(4) but even that can be dealt with by either having her attack thunder spirits only or giving her a blessed brave axe. What makes you think her performance diminishes as the game goes on?

Personally, I think Brom is underrated. He's a great wall in part 2 and is still fairly good in part 3.

Neither of which is impressive considering his competition. Okay, 2-1 he’s a rockstar, in 2-2 the laguz dominate easily, and in 2-E you have Haar and Elincia on top of it. Then in 3-2, Brom’s durability is being compared to the likes of Haar, Ike, Gatrie, Oscar, Mordy (a few chapters later) and a couple other near invincible units, all of whom laugh at his offence.

Ilyana is pretty good in part 1 and has the highest availability in the game, but I'll move her down a few spaces.

She’s pretty good for all of 1-3 where she can double enemies who are weighed down by steel weapons. After that her 30% spd growth rears its ugly head and you realize she’s almost as frail as Micaiah, and that thunder has incredibly lame accuracy. Though, if you do level her up, she leaves the DB just to be underlevelled again in the GMs, and one of their worst units (I’d honestly want to use Kyza > her). Availability is only a good thing if you can make good use of it. If you’re hurting the team when you’re around, then it’s better to not be around at all.

Geoffrey has fail availability and his offense isn't much better than Kieran so Kieran is better. Calill only has 1 less chapter but makes up for it by being available through all of 2-E, having healing utility, and good endgame potential. She can also get pretty sweet transfers.

Kieran’s availability doesn’t make him better. His base level is 20/11 and he needs to reach 20/20/1 by 3-11 to have enough spd to double enemy paladins, which are a slow enemy class no less. There’s no way in hell Kieran is gaining 9 levels in 2 chapters, especially with the weak exp gain in 2-3. So, more realistically, we give him say 5 levels instead, and he becomes as follows:

Kieran lv 20/16 (B Marcia, steel poleax): 45 hp, 40 MT, 22 skl, 22 spd, 18 luck, 21 def, 12 res, 142 hit, 77 avo

Vs some 3-11 enemies

Lance paladin lv 13 (steel lance)

Hp 39

Mt 30

Hit 137

As 19

Def 19

Res 12

Avo 59

Kieran just barely 2 rounds this enemy and is 6HKOed at ~50% real. This is with WTA mind you.

Swordsmaster lv 12 (steel sword)

Hp 35

Mt 28

Hit 159

As 25

Def 17

Res 11

Avo 76

Kieran only has 61% real on this bugger even with his hit boost from Marcia. He’s also getting 6HKOed at 98 real and only 1AS high of getting doubled, so some of the higher end SMs might double him.

Sniper lv 14 (steel bow)

Hp 40

Mt 32

Hit 157

As 21

Def 19

Res 13

Avo 69

Another bare 2RKO and only has 86 real, so his chance of not getting the kill is about 27%. Gets 5HKOed at 89% true.

Now let’s compare Kieran to someone who’s considered craptastic like Kyza.

Kieran lv 20/16 (B Marcia, steel poleax): 45 hp, 40 MT, 22 skl, 22 spd, 18 luck, 21 def, 12 res, 142 hit, 77 avo

Kyza lv 23 (S strike, A Mordecai): 59 hp, 41 MT, 24 skl, 26 spd, 17 luck, 24 def, 6 res, 155 hit, 84 avo

Kyza beats him at virtually everything (+14 hp, +1 MT, +4 spd, +3 def, -6 res, +13 hit, +7 avo) and with 26 spd he can actually double stuff Kieran couldn’t. I’d rather put up with his occasional lack of player phase attacks to have him perform that much better. So, either Kieran is terrible when he re-joins and thus negative utility, or Kyza needs to move up (not what I’m trying to prove).

Her bases are actually fairly good and she should be right around the level of the rest of your team depending on how many you trained. She's the best in her class, but still pretty good because of Earth affinity and flier utility.

What makes you think her bases are good?

Tanith lv 16 (steel greatlance): 35 hp, 34 MT, 21 skl, 23 spd, 22 luck, 19 def, 20 res, 134 hit, 83 avo

Her bases are actually worse than Kieran’s particularly in the durability department, and I hopefully demonstrated already that Kieran isn’t too great from 3-11 onwards.

Rhys has totally fail durability and always has less move. Using Mist alone is probably better than using both.

So does Mist for most of second tier. This isn’t different from any other FE, you have to protect your healers, so I don’t see why you’d hold this against Rhys but not Laura, Mist or Micaiah.

Volke, Stefan, and Muarim all have fail availability, though I'll consider moving Volke and Stefan up. Vika at least has a few part 1 chapters of usefulness where Kurth has none. I switched Nealuchi and Sigrun.

In the case of Muarim, the magnitude of his win in his chapters is so great it easily exceeds that of a character who’s around twice as long but is mediocre to below average during that time. I don’t feel like arguing about Volke and Stefan right now.

I'll move Pelleas down, but I don't know about Nasir. He isn't helping that much and he's only there for 2 chapters. Gareth may as well have innate Provoke, the spirits go to him like flies and he's 2-3 rounded where Ena isn't if you want Blood Tide that badly, which isn't so great. You should already have enough staff users to make Lehran useless and you can't even prepare him before the chapter so anything he uses has to traded to him. And for one map. I'm considering removing him entirely from the list.

Nasir allowing ppl to double means he’s doubling multiple unit’s damage output while just taking up 1 spot on your roster. That’s almost as good as being a heron, despite being subdued to 2 chapters’ worth of effect. As for Gareth, blood tide helps people require 1 less attack to kill an aura (so 5HKOing -> 4HKOing or 3RKOing -> 2RKOing etc), and since you can use tides multiple times per turn due to the magic of canto and proper spacing, he’s being a lot like Nasir. I already stated what you have to do to make Gareth survive, just keep him on res tiles and have him use spirit water. It’s restrictive, hence why he’s not as useful as the other dragons, but still nonetheless extremely useful. Also, it’s pretty hard to be worse than Lyre, she has the transform issues of a cat, the attack of Mist and the def of a base level Rolf, and it’s not like she’ll grow out of it in any hurry since laguz CEXP gains are crap.

It wasn't as serious as it sounded, but Nolan is much better with it than most anyone with Tarvos/Bowgun. Leonardo fails too much to use it.

Aran has enough MT with a forged weapon to 1HKO tigers and obviously has some massive def if you bothered to raise him. Jill with the brave axe is fine with it, and Zihark and Volug would love to have beastfoe.

Rolf generally starts to be better around the end of part 3 if given enough training, but they both turn out the same.

Only with transfers maybe. Shinon wins spd and durability forever, and he never loses str by any significant amount because of the sniper+marksman str caps. Also, Shinon is one of your best attackers in the early chapters since the killer bow lets him kill stuff 65-75% of the time whereas almost no one else aside from Ike and Mia can even double yet. Thus, Shinon is prospering while Rolf is at his suckiest. And before you say it, having Rolf use the killer instead won’t help him much since he’s not in 3HKO range of anything so it’s a bit of a misuse of resources.

[OMG it's a tier list]

How do you figure? He's gaining a fair amount of experience in Part 1

Enough to maybe get him to 20/5.

and then he's going to be one of your main attacking units in Part 3. The Part 3 DB Chapters are comprised of "Throw 100 enemies at the person and get them slaughtered", which is an experience fountain.

It is indeed an exp fountain, but I think you’re exaggerating it a little. You get 57 exp or less per kill on NM, and there’s 40ish laguz, so if you divide you kills roughly evenly between 6 units and factor in atk exp, that’s maybe 4-5 levels for Zihark. Less in 3-13 because your units gained levels while the laguz didn’t so much and 3-12 has pretty weak exp gain.

He may not hit Trueblade before Part 4, but he'll be damn near it.

K so we’re in agreement.

You make it sound like people are soloing chapters with those "pre-promo monsters", which is ludicrous.

Zihark is one of those pre-promo monsters, and I agree he’ll always be high since he gets to dominate a good number of chapters without doing something stupid like leaving for ¾ of the game. What I’m saying is the farther you get in part 1, the worse his rank becomes. Suppose he’s your best unit in 1-6, now in 1-7 he’s losing to Muarim (remember he starts off transformed), then he loses 1-8 to Nailah, then 1-E compounds that with the Black Knight to the point where he’s maybe only upper mid of the DB’s current line-up.

Ah, we're back to that whole "pre-promote monster" arguement, aren't we?

See above. I don’t think I made it clear that Sothe’s bigger problem is faltering as the game goes on. Even with max str and beastkillers (the strongest knife Sothe can equip), he can’t even ORKO 3-12 halberdiers. He will also likely auto-promote before he hits lv 20, which is a decent hit to his stats, and his str cap goes from 24 to 28, which is like 3 or so higher than an archsage’s str cap IIRC. Oh, and don’t forget about bane, skill/2 activation and if it activates on the second hit, you’re guaranteed not to kill the enemy. Pretty bad when most of your units are progressing in part 4 with the emergence of buyable killer and high end silver weapons, mastery skills that don’t suck, better access to skills, etc.

Sothe, unlike Tauroneo, the BK, or Nailah, is available for 8 of Part 1's chapters. The BK's in 2, Nailah's in 2, and Tauroneo is in 1. Sothe's also more useful than those units because of his thieving utility.

Yeah I know, any individual pre-promo won’t be around for long, but it’s the fact that in any individual chapter there’s one present.

1-5: Sothe, Volug

1-6: Sothe, Volug, Zihark, Tauroneo

1-7: Sothe, Volug, Zihark, Tormod, Vika, Muarim

1-8: Sothe, Volug, Zihark, Tormod, Vika, Muarim, Nailah

1-E: Sothe, Volug, Zihark, Tormod, Vika, Muarim, Nailah, BK

Plus, people like Nolan, Aran and Jill do provide some decent competition when levelled, especially when their supports kick in (the DB is flooded with thunder and earth affinities

[OMG it's a tier list]

It may just be me being biased, but I think Reyson's abilities are overrated. You can only refresh 1 unit before transforming, and many times, units aren't able to be refreshed because they're either out of reach or refreshing them would put said Heron in harm's way.

He can transform on the first turn thanks to laguz stones (you get a ton of 'em and he's the best laguz to use it on) and he's still vigoring like crazy even when having to take the occasional turn to pop some addictive olivi grass.

We all know that Reyson's going to be stuck with Vigor and Bliss for a while.

Vigor is all he needs. Wtfawesum at having an extra Tibarn, Naesala, Haar and Jill attack every turn on 4-E, or Haar/Titania/Mist/Janaff on 3-11, etc etc. He takes up one unit slot to give you 3-4 more player phase attacks, which is about as efficient as you can get.

Zihark starts great, ends great, is available for all of the DB chapters after Chapter 5, has a h4x Earth affinity, and he's making better use of the experience you give him than, say, Muarim, who leaves until the end of the game. He's also able to join the Greil Mercenaries for extra experience, and he's still doing better than more than half of your team.

He's still going to be under-levelled in part 4, in fact he'll be lucky to even hit trueblade without BEXP. That's not going to make him outperform a GM in part 4 and like I said, his part 1 is overrated considering how many pre-promos you get fed every chapter after 1-4.

Sothe is one of your best characters in Part 1 and in Part 3. Paraphrasing off of what Mekkah said, Part 1 Sothe >>>> Part 1 Edward, Micaiah, Leonardo, Nolan, Laura, Ilyana, Meg, Fiona, and Jill. Titania has some steady competition in the forms of Ike, Gatrie, Shinon, and Oscar.

How does Sothe not have competition? Volug and Zihark for a while, then all those pre-promo monsters I mentioned earlier (lol at Sothe beating the BK or Nailah in 1-E for instance) and after part 4 he gets to be below average. Having the beastkiller is nice for 3-6 and 3-13, but getting 2HKOed by tigers at reasonably large hit rates really hurts him, then you have to account for his fail caps + weapon type making him horrible in the later chapters of the game.

[OMG it's a tier list]

That all depends on how you value availability, but Giffca will always be very close to Caneighis in the list since their stats are more or less identical, and Giffca has a better chance of capping spd and thus being able to double auras without Nasir despite having to use gems or stones/grass.

[Debate Challenges]

I finished up my reply for Nino vs Rath, Tino.

[Tino vs. Vykan]

Anyway, I feel it’s pointless to continue going through this chapter by chapter analysis since there’s evidently ways that Rath can contribute positively before Nino shows up (rescuing, hitting walls, softening enemies, attacking wyverns, Guy support, etc), plus all of this is assuming Rath sucks throughout those 8 chapters, which evidently isn’t true since he’ll be growing throughout that period.

Let’s look at how Rath compares to some higher ranked units when he’s 15/1.

Rath lv 15/1 (B Lyn, B Guy): 34 hp, 16 str, 13 skl, 15 spd, 11 def, 7 res, 7 luck, 52 avo, 8 con

Iron bow: 22 MT, 15 AS

Steel bow: 25 MT, 14 AS

Iron sword: 21 MT, 15 AS

Steel sword: 24 MT, 13 AS

*Killer, silver and reinfleche bows will never cause an AS loss

Kent lv 20/1 (A Sain, B Lyn): 38 hp, 20 str, 17 skl, 17 spd, 14 def, 7 res, 6 luck, 52 avo, 11 con

Steel sword: 28 MT, 17 AS

Steel lance: 30 MT, 15 AS

Iron axe: 28 MT, 17 AS

Steel axe: 31 MT, 13 AS

Lowen lv 20/3 (A Eliwood, B Rebecca): 43 hp, 19 str, 12 skl, 14 spd, 18 def, 7 res, 13 luc, 66 avo, 12 con

Steel sword: 27 MT, 14 AS

Steel lance: 29 MT, 13 AS

Iron axe: 27 MT, 14 AS

Steel axe: 30 MT, 11 AS

Clearly Rath doesn’t beat either character, but he’s not getting completely outclassed either. Being able to compare to high tier units should be an indication that Rath is contributing positively on offence versus just dragging the team down.

For one, Nino has healing utility upon promotion. Being able to use staves is a massive benefit, especially since she isn't such a great combat unit. Not only does it make her boost the EXP rank even more (I'll cover that later), but it also makes her improve your team's overall durability.

Healing utility? Please, healers are about as unique as fighters by the time she shows up. You have Lucius, Erk, Priscilla, Serra and Pent who are all high tier units who can heal before Nino’s presence, plus there’s Canas, then you have Renault and Athos who also have auto-A in staves for the final chapter. Also, the final chapters are among the easiest in the game, aside from maybe the very last chapter, so healing is needed less there, meaning Nino’s healing would only be doing herself a service in giving people +1-4 hp.

For two, Nino benefits the EXP rank massively. Battle Before Dawn requires your team to gain 36.5 levels. Assuming a 10 man team, that's 3-4 levels per unit, including Rath and Nino. Nino gains massive EXP even from one hit, and she might even almost gain a level from one simple kill, so she's definitely benefiting the most gay rank in the game.

I don’t see your point since by the time you recruit Nino, the level’s practically over. It’s also a fairly large map with many promoted enemies, so getting the exp rank without her shouldn’t be much of an issue, and even if it were, you could just deploy an unused Dart or something and have him rack up exp. In fact, just about anyone who’s not part of your main team can be subbed in for these chapters with lofty exp gain requirements, so Nino being so damn underlevelled isn’t really an advantage of any sort.

The same goes for Sand of Time and Victory or Death (the last one having a massive 6150 EXP requirement, for which Nino is the best unit in the game indeed).

The exp requirement for Victory of Death is actually quite reasonable considering it’s probably the largest map in the game. Also, I remember this chapter giving brickloads of exp per enemy kill, and I checked some youtube vids of the chapter just to make sure. A 20/12 Eliwood gains 25 exp killing an unpromoted general, and there’s lots of promoted enemies in this level. Maybe the guy wasn’t playing HHM but I can’t see the exp reduction being so steep that 5*ing the exp rank on that map would be a major issue.

So, in conclusion, while Rath is doing nothing but being a massive detriment towards the team before Nino joins and not benefiting the team even after she has joined (and still being a detriment), Nino is practically essential for S-ranking the EXP rank, which is the hardest rank in the game, has 1-2 range and healing utility (the latter only after promotion).

Correction: Rath finds ways to contribute while Nino is gone, no matter how petty they might be at times, and easily outperforms her when she joins due to a support and level advantage. Nino being a help to the exp rank is a moot point since Rath also helped in the exp rank for the chapters he was in, plus the fact that 5*ing the exp rank isn’t remotely difficult, plus there’s the fact that you can deploy other undeveloped units to do what Nino does. I’m not so sure what’s special about having 1-2 range if you have no offence or durability, and I’ve already explained how her healing utility is negligible.