What makes Fire Emblem fun for you?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 1/17/2024 at 2:19 PM, Saint Rubenio said:

Also, I like how comprehensible the numbers are. In other games it's all you can do to wrap your head around how much damage you're going to do, what the stats mean and what impact increasing them is going to have. FE is super transparent about its numbers to the point where you can do exact damage calculations on the fly. When I get a point of strength or speed in FE, I know what that does. Whether I get doubled or not in FE, I know why that is. And that's something we couldn't possibly value enough. It makes strategizing feel so much more real and satisfying.

This is a very good point! Honestly, one of my biggest "turn-offs" in other games, mainly RPGs, is seeing an attack do damage in the hundreds, or even thousands. Where'd that number come from? How did I make it? Can I make it higher? Do I even need to? By rooting itself in double-digit damages, Fire Emblem is a series where it feels like every point - of Strength, of Defense, of Weapon Might - really matters.

51 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

(except the Zephiel stuff, which unshockingly is one of the few parts of the story which feels coherent outside Lyn Mode)

Is it, though? Killing Zephiel is irrelevent once the Fire Emblem has been stolen. And vice-versa: why block his coronation by stealing the magic rock, if they were going to kill him regardless?

Also, the last scene with young Zephiel implies things are going to get better for him and his family, which... no. No, they're not. If they did, FE6 would never have happened. Maybe they were going for "sadly ironic", but it really feels moreso like dissonant messaging.

51 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Most other questionable FE stories manage to say something about war, even if they frequently undercut it by apologizing for anything the player does; FE7 really feels like a game about nothing.

To this end, I actually disagree. Like, I think the overall plot is totally broken. But I think there are some really strong themes contained within. Eliwood and Nergal both deal with grief and loss, but where Nergal obsesses and goes mad in isolation, Eliwood counts on his friends and keeps on living. Lyn first seeks to become stronger to avenge her family, but changes course to discover the family she never knew. And Hector learns to be more emotionally open, while also taking on more responsibility - to his friends, and to his land. I don't know if FE7 has one single thesis, but I think it succeeds at fleshing out its core characters and making their feelings matter. Just my take, though.

Answering the core question here: the fact that I've been playing a couple games in Japanese, despite just knowing enough Katakana to get character and place names, suggest that story doesn't actually matter all that much to my enjoyment. On the flip side, I'm one of those sickos who actually enjoys the gameplay of Genealogy, so...

...Actually, I think there's another reason. "Do I feel like I'm in a real world, and that my actions matter to it?" See, one of the coolest things FE4 did is, you essentially play on the world map. Each chapter bleeds into the next one, and it's honestly beautiful. Likewise, the cool thing in Echoes? I can explore dungeons! And towns, to a lesser extent! These are real places, not just backdrops. Finally, in 3H, we have the Monastery. It gets a ton of flack, some of it deserved. But I think it succeeds at feeling like a church and boarding school, rolled into one. You're doing a real job, for real people. It's not a simulated environment generated solely to gameplay ends, like My Castle or (sort of) the Somniel, but a believable, lived-in environment. Finally, while Radiant Dawn plays more like a traditional FE game, I really feel like the art and sound design created settings (like Nevassa, Ohma, and the Tower) that don't come across as strongly in other games. And the base conversations, my Goddess! My favorite was the one with no playable characters. Just four Crimean villagers, talking about their anxiety about the war, and their relations with the laguz. It gave no gameplay reward, but it painted the scene so strongly.

...Damn, I think I've figured out what unites the FE games that I keep coming back to. It's not just story, notmr is it just gameplay, but a certain "vibe" that can come from both (or neither).

Edited January 20 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Several typos.

[Dark Holy Elf]

15 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

To this end, I actually disagree. Like, I think the overall plot is totally broken. But I think there are some really strong themes contained within. Eliwood and Nergal both deal with grief and loss, but where Nergal obsesses and goes mad in isolation, Eliwood counts on his friends and keeps on living. Lyn first seeks to become stronger to avenge her family, but changes course to discover the family she never knew. And Hector learns to be more emotionally open, while also taking on more responsibility - to his friends, and to his land. I don't know if FE7 has one single thesis, but I think it succeeds at fleshing out its core characters and making their feelings matter. Just my take, though.

To be clear, I agree with you that FE7 does a good job of characters. I enjoyed watching Eliwood's little arc, and Lyn's. Hector's not so much but I get where you're coming from. And in general this is something I think most FEs are good at, and part of what drew me to this game, and thereafter this series in general.

(Nergal I generally think is rather disastrous from a writing standpoint, both in the present and the past. Did he deal with grief and loss? I don't think that came across in the story well at all. IIRC it's mostly gated behind that rather ridiculous 19xx sidequest, and even then I was unclear if Nergal's madness was supposed to be the result of grief or if it was just "dark magic eventually makes you crazy", which iirc some supports seemed to be pointing at. Nergal is bad and there's a reason he's still not in FEH. Even as far as "grief making someone turn to extremes" villain arcs go I thought Sacred Stones did a significantly better job at this... more than once, even!)

15 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is it, though? Killing Zephiel is irrelevent once the Fire Emblem has been stolen. And vice-versa: why block his coronation by stealing the magic rock, if they were going to kill him regardless?

Also, the last scene with young Zephiel implies things are going to get better for him and his family, which... no. No, they're not. If they did, FE6 would never have happened. Maybe they were going for "sadly ironic", but it really feels moreso like dissonant messaging.

Far be it for me to defend anything from Blazing's plot but yeah I definitely thought the last Zephiel scene was supposed to be sadly ironic. Or, perhaps it was supposed to make the player hopeful that the problem had been solved (at least if they were unaware of FE6)... only for the ending to come along and gutpunch them with the truth.

I also definitely think killing Zephiel is absolutely relevant even after the fire emblem is stolen. Desmond wants someone to succeed him, so he'll need the fire emblem eventually, right? The plan is presumably to kill Zephiel than the fire emblem can be conveniently "found". I do agree with the vice-versa part; I suspect that is just filler to (a) get the titular object into the game and (b) give you more time to learn about what's going on in Bern.

[Nauriam]

On 1/19/2024 at 11:01 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Answering the core question here: the fact that I've been playing a couple games in Japanese, despite just knowing enough Katakana to get character and place names, suggest that story doesn't actually matter all that much to my enjoyment. On the flip side, I'm one of those sickos who actually enjoys the gameplay of Genealogy, so...

...Actually, I think there's another reason. "Do I feel like I'm in a real world, and that my actions matter to it?" See, one of the coolest things FE4 did is, you essentially play on the world map. Each chapter bleeds into the next one, and it's honestly beautiful. Likewise, the cool thing in Echoes? I can explore dungeons! And towns, to a lesser extent! These are real places, not just backdrops. Finally, in 3H, we have the Monastery. It gets a ton of flack, some of it deserved. But I think it succeeds at feeling like a church and boarding school, rolled into one. You're doing a real job, for real people. It's not a simulated environment generated solely to gameplay ends, like My Castle or (sort of) the Somniel, but a believable, lived-in environment. Finally, while Radiant Dawn plays more like a traditional FE game, I really feel like the art and sound design created settings (like Nevassa, Ohma, and the Tower) that don't come across as strongly in other games. And the base conversations, my Goddess! My favorite was the one with no playable characters. Just four Crimean villagers, talking about their anxiety about the war, and their relations with the laguz. It gave no gameplay reward, but it painted the scene so strongly.

...Damn, I think I've figured out what unites the FE games that I keep coming back to. It's not just story, notmr is it just gameplay, but a certain "vibe" that can come from both (or neither).

I totally resonate with this. I think it's the reason I liked Genealogy so much, and I think Thracia actually did a really good job at it too.The other games do have world maps, and locations that reflect where you are, but for some reason when I'm playing most of the games it feels like we're warping from set piece to set piece, and the idea of a world outside of each map is just a bit of flavor. I have played Vestaria Saga I, and am currently playing Vestaria Saga II, and I am REALLY enjoying them, and I think it's partly due to this reason exactly. The world seems so real and lived in. The lives and plight of every social class is seen, and the army slowly moves through different areas that have distinct and recognizable geographic features and climates, and for some reason it all just clicks for me when it doesn't in other games.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also definitely think killing Zephiel is absolutely relevant even after the fire emblem is stolen. Desmond wants someone to succeed him, so he'll need the fire emblem eventually, right? The plan is presumably to kill Zephiel than the fire emblem can be conveniently "found". I do agree with the vice-versa part; I suspect that is just filler to (a) get the titular object into the game and (b) give you more time to learn about what's going on in Bern.

So, what we know is, the "coming-of-age ceremony" is required to ascend to the throne of Bern. We also know that the Ceremony is supposed to occur on Zephiel's thirteenth birthday. With the Fire Emblem "stolen", King Desmond said that the ceremony would have to be "cancelled", rather than "postponed". It's not at all clear that, were the Emblem to be rediscovered later, a "make-up" ceremony could take place. My interpretation of Desmond's initial plan is:

1. Fire Emblem gets stolen

2. Zephiel's 13th birthday comes and goes

3. Fire Emblem is "rediscovered" later, sometime before Guinevere's 13th birthday

4. Guinevere gets the "coming-of-age" ceremony instead

5. Guinevere is now Desmond's successor

On 1/20/2024 at 2:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Far be it for me to defend anything from Blazing's plot but yeah I definitely thought the last Zephiel scene was supposed to be sadly ironic. Or, perhaps it was supposed to make the player hopeful that the problem had been solved (at least if they were unaware of FE6)... only for the ending to come along and gutpunch them with the truth.

Maybe? It's still very values-dissonant to me. Like, we're doing the right thing, but it has disastrous consequences. Athos can see into the future - apparently - so surely he knows that saving Zephiel will cause war to erupt in twenty years. And the whole mission our three Lords are on is... preventing a continent-spanning war. While killing Zephiel (and Nino) is currently the Black Fang's goal, it's not as though doing so would somehow ignite Nergal's desired war.

On 1/20/2024 at 2:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Even as far as "grief making someone turn to extremes" villain arcs go I thought Sacred Stones did a significantly better job at this... more than once, even!)

Yeah I agree with this much. Sacred Stones has some similar themes, but does them better. Characters like Orson and Lyon are driven to villainy by their grief, and inability to accept loss. Can't wait for the inevitable remake to undermine this theming by giving us a Turnwheel...

2 hours ago, Nauriam said:

I totally resonate with this. I think it's the reason I liked Genealogy so much, and I think Thracia actually did a really good job at it too.The other games do have world maps, and locations that reflect where you are, but for some reason when I'm playing most of the games it feels like we're warping from set piece to set piece, and the idea of a world outside of each map is just a bit of flavor. I have played Vestaria Saga I, and am currently playing Vestaria Saga II, and I am REALLY enjoying them, and I think it's partly due to this reason exactly. The world seems so real and lived in. The lives and plight of every social class is seen, and the army slowly moves through different areas that have distinct and recognizable geographic features and climates, and for some reason it all just clicks for me when it doesn't in other games.

What's funny is, I'm not such a fan of Thracia 776, but it's not for failing in any of the reasons that I like games. Really, it's just the "Kaga bullshit" involved. Stuff like "ballista reinforcements that just killed the character I need to access the final paralogue". But in terms of worldbuilding and immersion, it's definitely up there.

[Magenta Fantasies]

I couldn’t care less about optimization, but otherwise I’d have to agree with TC’s initial post.

Story is definitely important to me, but I can think of plenty of games that I enjoy with weak stories (the Sonic, Kirby, Pokemon and Super Mario series comes to mind) that I enjoy regardless. I don’t think a good story can save bad gameplay unless the story is one of main driving forces in the game (e.g. visual novels, point-and-click games, adventure games and narrative games are all genres I enjoy.) Visual novels with minimal gameplay can be plenty of fun. While I think the stories of Conquest and Revelation (my favorite Fire Emblem games) both had definite flaws, their stories were intriguing enough that I wanted to play to know what would happen next, a rare feeling for me in video games. I absolutely love the casts of both games and several of my favorite Fire Emblem characters are among them. Also, I find the Fates settings fascinating, and wish more had been done with them from a lore/worldbuilding standpoint. Judging from the amount of fan theories and fan fiction I’ve seen, I’m not alone in that.

By extension, the individual character connection is one of my favorite things about Fire Emblem and RPGs in general. It’s fun to use and build characters, and it makes me care about them. I love Pokemon because I enjoy collecting, training them, and customizing them by which skills I teach them. This is even better in games with characters with established personalities who can bond and interact with you and each other. Fire Emblem games without supports feel hollow to me. While I miss base conversations—they lend some fascinating insights to the characters, story and world—Radiant Dawn felt hollow to me in comparison to Path of Radiance. I like the direction that Awakening, Fates (and to a slightly lesser degree Three Houses) went where you can make most of the cast interact with each other and in many cases pair them. I also appreciate that in Shadows of Valentia, they react when another character dies in battle. If I had to pick one, this is probably the most important element for me.

I would extend this to say immersion. I love games that make me feel like I’m part of the game’s world. Part of that is self-insertion, and while I definitely enjoy this (one of several reason why Corrin is my favorite Fire Emblem character and I really like Robin and Kris as well) great immersion doesn’t require an avatar/player-created character. For example, I don’t think Night in the Woods is the masterpiece that many people seems to think it is. It’s an overall somewhat good game with somewhat good gameplay and a somewhat good storyline that has highs and lows, but it’s one of the most atmospheric and immersive games I’ve ever played. Even though you play as a character with an established personality (and one I don’t particularly like), the games does a phenomenal job with making you feel as if you are her and living her life in her town.

This also relates to vibe. While it’s not as important as the above, the feel and aesthetics of a game definitely influence my opinion of it. For me, the technical quality of the graphics isn’t very important. NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams had adequate graphics when it released in 2008, and they haven’t aged favorably since, but it’s such an aesthetically pleasing game for other reasons that it’s still one of the most aesthetically pleasing games I’ve ever played. Do your ears a favor and listen to the soundtrack on YouTube.

Strategy and gameplay are among the most important things. While I don’t dislike Awakening, Shadows of Valentia and Birthright, most of the maps in these games range from mediocre to bad and I don’t enjoy the combat as much as in other games. This puts them on the lower end of my list of favorite Fire Emblem games. Shadow Dragon has pretty good maps, but it lacks the other elements I listed above, which also puts it towards the bottom of my favorite Fire Emblem games list. I enjoy Shadow Dragon for what it is, but New Mystery is a vastly better game and my third favorite behind Conquest and Revelation.

Ludonarrative harmony/dissonance is important, but still less important than the other aspects. I see it as a bonus that aids storytelling rather than a necessity. 

One important facet is also replay value. While I’ve played games where the first playthrough was the best or most memorable, it diminishes a game if I see no reason to play it again, or if I would want to wait a very long time before playing it again. Games can be linear and have replay value if there is plenty to do within the game that can be done differently in a different playthrough, e.g. which skills are given to a unit, which units are used more, and which allies you pair with each other. Different Fire Emblem games have handled this in different ways, but in general they have plenty of replay value.