Tino vs. Vykan

[Tino]

HHM, ranked, three posts each, blah blah blah

I open. Coming soon.

[Tino]

One day, there was Rath. He joined in Kinship's Bond and sucked hard. He might have gained three levels in Lyn Mode with a bit of luck. So what does he look like in Kinship's Bond?

10/0 Rath

Iron Bow: 15.5 atk, 11.5 as ,, 27.4 hp, 7.3 def, 2.8 res, 28.9 avo

Iron Bow because Short Bow sucks. Heath sucks here, and Rath seriously isn't much better, or possibly even worse. His durability sucks hard, as does his offense. And unlike most cases, Rath's 2 range lock doesn't improve his durability. A 12 str Steel Bow!Archer has 21 atk and thus three-rounds Rath at a fairly good true hit percentage. And he doesn't counter 1 range enemies. He can only attack something safely if it has no 2 range option, which a decent amount of enemies actually have, such as mages and archers (both of which deal pretty massive damage due to Rath's horrible def/res).

His offense... sucks. 15-16 atk with 11-12 attack speed is nothing to write home about. Assuming an 8 def enemy, Heath will deal 8-16 damage at most, which is massive fail. Then he's also locked to 2 range, and we see Rath has pretty abysmal offense.

The only support Rath can hope for is A/B Lyn, which doesn't give him what he wants; durability. Unless you call +7 avo a good durability boost, supports don't do much for Rath. And he's not even guaranteed to get that Lyn support.

To go a bit more in-depth on his Kinship's Bond utility, he isn't doing you much good. As I've already told you, his offense and durability suck. Kinship's Bond is pretty crowded with Mages, Nomads, Monks. And since he's getting countered by many enemies, his 2 range doesn't help him either.

Then comes Living Legend, the desert chapter. Rath is massive fail here. There's Fog of War, and many mages and archers running around and his movement costs are incredibly high. If Rath doesn't want to get owned by all the enemies crawling around in the desert, he'll have to pick off some enemy doods on the plains, which many other units like Kent, Lowen, Sain and Guy want to do as well (except that they can actually kill there, while Rath indeed has to snipe off the weakened ones).

Genesis seems fine for him at first. However, as soon as Kishuna disappears, he'll started getting raped by Boltings and status staves, and though many of your units suck against those, Rath is one of the worst. Heath is one of the worst units at that point against magic users, and assuming he gained two levels while Rath gained one (Heath joins at a bit lower level and at can at least fight a bit with his average-ish concrete durability), we see Heath has 30 hp/1 res/25 avo, while Rath has 28 hp/3 res/31 avo... Fuck, he's almost as bad as Heath is. Considering a 22 atk Bolting!Mage, Rath gets raped pretty hard (19/28 damage is a ton, since it requires only one more attack for Rath to get killed). Or to give a more extreme example, 20/0 Hector without supports has 36 hp/5 res, and he is considered bad against magic. If Hector fails against magic, then Rath fails even harder.

Four Fanged Offense isn't much better for him, since there are a lot of archers, snipers and also mages and monk and even a Bolting!Sage. He still isn't benefiting the team much. Or rather, not at all. Not even in the form of the EXP rank.

Next is Crazed Beast. Rath gets slaughtered by everything on the map. Pirates to the south with massive atk against Rath's abysmal durability, monks to the easy and tons of pegasi up north, with a ballistae ready to rape him as soon as Rath enters his range.

Unfulfilled Heart is a little bit better for him, since he might be able to kill a few Wyverns due to his bows being effective against them, though he's still nothing special, and still isn't benefiting the team in any way, unless being a massive detriment is beneficial. Also, he still gets killed quickly by them, which means he must retreat or die. Both are detrimental, so he still isn't doing you any good. Then there are bow users and magic users against which he fails again as well. Nah, he still sucks cock.

Then, in Pale Flower of Darkness, there's long-range magic again, ready to raep (that's right, raep, not rape) him. He fails against the armoured enemies, still fails against mages. Meh. Still massive fail.

And that's when Nino joins in Battle Before Dawn. I suppose he can be 17/0 after eight chapters of massive suck.

5/0 Nino

Fire: 12.0 atk, 10.0 as ,, 19.0 hp, 4.0 def, 7.0 res, 30.0 avo

17/0 Rath

Steel Bow: 22.0 atk, 13.0 as ,, 33.0 hp, 8.0 def, 4.5 res, 34.0 avo

Hmm, looks like Rath is beating the fucking crap out of Nino, right? The opposite is true, in fact. Both suck cock as fighting units, so we don't want to look at how well they fare in combat, but at what else they bring to the team.

For one, Nino has healing utility upon promotion. Being able to use staves is a massive benefit, especially since she isn't such a great combat unit. Not only does it make her boost the EXP rank even more (I'll cover that later), but it also makes her improve your team's overall durability. Rath always has to do everything with his fail offense and durability, and all he can do is fight things in order to gain stats and levels.

For two, Nino benefits the EXP rank massively. Battle Before Dawn requires your team to gain 36.5 levels. Assuming a 10 man team, that's 3-4 levels per unit, including Rath and Nino. Nino gains massive EXP even from one hit, and she might even almost gain a level from one simple kill, so she's definitely benefiting the most gay rank in the game. The same goes for Sand of Time and Victory or Death (the last one having a massive 6150 EXP requirement, for which Nino is the best unit in the game indeed).

So, in conclusion, while Rath is doing nothing but being a massive detriment towards the team before Nino joins and not benefiting the team even after she has joined (and still being a detriment), Nino is practically essential for S-ranking the EXP rank, which is the hardest rank in the game, has 1-2 range and healing utility (the latter only after promotion).

Nino > Rath indeed.

[Vykan12]

Sorry Tino, I've been ridiculously busy the past few days and my response is only halfway done. Expect my rebuttal around wednesday or thursday.

[Vykan12]

Still late, so I'll just post what I have so far and finish the rest when I can.

One day, there was Rath. He joined in Kinship's Bond and sucked hard. He might have gained three levels in Lyn Mode with a bit of luck. So what does he look like in Kinship's Bond?

Nino being so naive to the wickedness of her supposed mother is leaps of fail beyond anything you could claim of Rath. Plus he’s got that shmexy bandana thing going for him. Also, I would’ve given Rath fewer levels in Lyn mode, but I’ll appreciate the generous estimate.

10/0 Rath

Iron Bow: 15.5 atk, 11.5 as ,, 27.4 hp, 7.3 def, 2.8 res, 28.9 avo

Iron Bow because Short Bow sucks. Heath sucks here, and Rath seriously isn't much better, or possibly even worse. His durability sucks hard, as does his offense. And unlike most cases, Rath's 2 range lock doesn't improve his durability. A 12 str Steel Bow!Archer has 21 atk and thus three-rounds Rath at a fairly good true hit percentage. And he doesn't counter 1 range enemies. He can only attack something safely if it has no 2 range option, which a decent amount of enemies actually have, such as mages and archers (both of which deal pretty massive damage due to Rath's horrible def/res).

His offense... sucks. 15-16 atk with 11-12 attack speed is nothing to write home about. Assuming an 8 def enemy, Heath will deal 8-16 damage at most, which is massive fail. Then he's also locked to 2 range, and we see Rath has pretty abysmal offense.

Perhaps to start with, but remember that Rath is joining pretty late in chapter 21 and fairly underleveled seeing as how people should be promoting by now. Oh wait, Nino joins even later in chapter 26 and even more underleveled. Guess no matter how bad Rath sucks, I could just bench him until Nino arrives and see what happens.

Rath lv 10: 27 hp, 9.5 str, 10 skl, 11.5 spd, 7 def, 3 res, 6 luck, 7 con

Iron bow: 15.5 atk

Steel bow: 18.5 atk, 9.5 spd

Nino lv 5: 19 hp, 7 mag, 8 skl, 11 spd, 4 def, 7 res, 10 luck, 3 con

Fire: 12 atk, 10 spd

Thunder: 14 atk, 8 spd

Clearly Rath wins everything even if I haven’t touched him since Lyn mode, which is already saying a lot. Now give him a mere 7 levels in 5 chapters, which is very low considering how underleveled he is but this way he is making a limited amount of attacks and thus not harping on your efficiency in any major way. So, for that tiny negative, Rath is now looking like this:

Rath lv 17: 33 hp, 13 str, 13 skl, 15 spd, 8 def, 4.5 res, 8 luck, 7 con

Iron bow: 19 atk

Steel bow: 22 atk, 13 spd

Now Rath’s making Nino cry he’s beating her so badly. He could even switch to a brave bow (a pretty damn heavy weapon at 12 wt) and have the same speed as Nino along with double her attack power and double her number of attacks, which is a testament to how badly she’s getting ransacked. Even if both characters suck relative to the enemy, Rath will be much easier to train and may actually double and ORKO stuff. Also, since Rath’s level is so high and he ain’t hittin’ 20/20, you can give him that Orion’s bolt you didn’t give Rebecca or Wil (since they suck) whereas Nino still has to gain 5 levels before she can think of promoting, not to mention she has to compete with Lucius, Serra and Erk for her promo item. So let’s see where that puts us:

Rath lv 17/1: 36 hp, 14 str, 14 skl, 16 spd, 11 def, 8 res, 8 luck, 7 con

Iron bow: 20 atk

Steel bow: 23 atk

Nino lv 5: 19 hp, 7 mag, 8 skl, 11 spd, 4 def, 7 res, 10 luck, 3 con

Fire: 12 atk, 10 spd

Thunder: 14 atk, 8 spd

No contest. Rath almost doubles Nino’s hp (+17), his damage output clearly surpasses the def/res gap, his +5 spd lead pretty much has him doubling stuff while Nino doesn’t have the slightest chance, he more than doubles her defence (+7) and even beats her resistance stat. Without even mentioning mobility, con, accuracy or avoid, it’s pretty clear we’re talking about two very different unit performances.

The only support Rath can hope for is A/B Lyn, which doesn't give him what he wants; durability. Unless you call +7 avo a good durability boost, supports don't do much for Rath. And he's not even guaranteed to get that Lyn support.

Ok, you seem to be implying Nino has durability. Her base defence of 4 and growth of 15% isn’t going to ever allow her to tank physical enemies, which are generally far more plentiful than mage enemies which attack her favourable res stat.

Also, I think you forgot about someone named Guy. Guy doesn’t want Matthew since he is a thief and his stats are terrible, so he’s probably seldom used and pretty much only for thieving utility (yay silver card), while Karel and Louise suck. That leaves Priscilla as his only other option but even then she can support Raven, Erk, Lucius, Oswin and/or Sain, which makes for 5 alternative high/top tier units she can choose to support.

To go a bit more in-depth on his Kinship's Bond utility, he isn't doing you much good. As I've already told you, his offense and durability suck. Kinship's Bond is pretty crowded with Mages, Nomads, Monks. And since he's getting countered by many enemies, his 2 range doesn't help him either.

There’s also plenty of warriors, a couple wyverns, some cavs and a thief, not to mention a couple breakable walls, so his 2 range is serving him just fine. Moreover, the map is “survive for 11 turns” even though the map is pretty small and contains a fairly small number of enemies, so being efficient is not that big of an issue. Once most of the enemies are dead, Marcus/Isadora/whoever just finishes off the boss, with Rath not being the slightest of a hindrance if you use him properly.

Then comes Living Legend, the desert chapter. Rath is massive fail here. There's Fog of War, and many mages and archers running around and his movement costs are incredibly high. If Rath doesn't want to get owned by all the enemies crawling around in the desert, he'll have to pick off some enemy doods on the plains, which many other units like Kent, Lowen, Sain and Guy want to do as well (except that they can actually kill there, while Rath indeed has to snipe off the weakened ones).

Then just don’t use him there. No negative utility for Rath, and there’s nothing Nino can do since she’s out giving Jaffar a loli lap dance.

Genesis seems fine for him at first. However, as soon as Kishuna disappears, he'll started getting raped by Boltings and status staves, and though many of your units suck against those, Rath is one of the worst. Heath is one of the worst units at that point against magic users, and assuming he gained two levels while Rath gained one (Heath joins at a bit lower level and at can at least fight a bit with his average-ish concrete durability), we see Heath has 30 hp/1 res/25 avo, while Rath has 28 hp/3 res/31 avo... Fuck, he's almost as bad as Heath is. Considering a 22 atk Bolting!Mage, Rath gets raped pretty hard (19/28 damage is a ton, since it requires only one more attack for Rath to get killed). Or to give a more extreme example, 20/0 Hector without supports has 36 hp/5 res, and he is considered bad against magic. If Hector fails against magic, then Rath fails even harder.

So just use Rath until the shield goes down, then have him retreat like a real winner. If he gets berserked, big deal, he’ll have to travel for quite a few turns before he even reaches anyone and since his offence so far is apparently fail, he won’t be harming anyone, will he?

Oh yeah, all that’s assuming you don’t give Rath some spirit water. Not particularly expensive items (each use is equivalent to 3 vulneraries in gold) and he might only need to use 1 for the entirety of the chapter. And of course the map is almost entirely covered in break-able walls, so Rath’s range comes in useful.

[Vykan12]

Anyway, I feel it’s pointless to continue going through this chapter by chapter analysis since there’s evidently ways that Rath can contribute positively before Nino shows up (rescuing, hitting walls, softening enemies, attacking wyverns, Guy support, etc), plus all of this is assuming Rath sucks throughout those 8 chapters, which evidently isn’t true since he’ll be growing throughout that period.

Let’s look at how Rath compares to some higher ranked units when he’s 15/1.

Rath lv 15/1 (B Lyn, B Guy): 34 hp, 16 str, 13 skl, 15 spd, 11 def, 7 res, 7 luck, 52 avo, 8 con

Iron bow: 22 MT, 15 AS

Steel bow: 25 MT, 14 AS

Iron sword: 21 MT, 15 AS

Steel sword: 24 MT, 13 AS

*Killer, silver and reinfleche bows will never cause an AS loss

Kent lv 20/1 (A Sain, B Lyn): 38 hp, 20 str, 17 skl, 17 spd, 14 def, 7 res, 6 luck, 52 avo, 11 con

Steel sword: 28 MT, 17 AS

Steel lance: 30 MT, 15 AS

Iron axe: 28 MT, 17 AS

Steel axe: 31 MT, 13 AS

Lowen lv 20/3 (A Eliwood, B Rebecca): 43 hp, 19 str, 12 skl, 14 spd, 18 def, 7 res, 13 luc, 66 avo, 12 con

Steel sword: 27 MT, 14 AS

Steel lance: 29 MT, 13 AS

Iron axe: 27 MT, 14 AS

Steel axe: 30 MT, 11 AS

Clearly Rath doesn’t beat either character, but he’s not getting completely outclassed either. Being able to compare to high tier units should be an indication that Rath is contributing positively on offence versus just dragging the team down.

For one, Nino has healing utility upon promotion. Being able to use staves is a massive benefit, especially since she isn't such a great combat unit. Not only does it make her boost the EXP rank even more (I'll cover that later), but it also makes her improve your team's overall durability.

Healing utility? Please, healers are about as unique as fighters by the time she shows up. You have Lucius, Erk, Priscilla, Serra and Pent who are all high tier units who can heal before Nino’s presence, plus there’s Canas, then you have Renault and Athos who also have auto-A in staves for the final chapter. Also, the final chapters are among the easiest in the game, aside from maybe the very last chapter, so healing is needed less there, meaning Nino’s healing would only be doing herself a service in giving people +1-4 hp.

For two, Nino benefits the EXP rank massively. Battle Before Dawn requires your team to gain 36.5 levels. Assuming a 10 man team, that's 3-4 levels per unit, including Rath and Nino. Nino gains massive EXP even from one hit, and she might even almost gain a level from one simple kill, so she's definitely benefiting the most gay rank in the game.

I don’t see your point since by the time you recruit Nino, the level’s practically over. It’s also a fairly large map with many promoted enemies, so getting the exp rank without her shouldn’t be much of an issue, and even if it were, you could just deploy an unused Dart or something and have him rack up exp. In fact, just about anyone who’s not part of your main team can be subbed in for these chapters with lofty exp gain requirements, so Nino being so damn underlevelled isn’t really an advantage of any sort.

The same goes for Sand of Time and Victory or Death (the last one having a massive 6150 EXP requirement, for which Nino is the best unit in the game indeed).

The exp requirement for Victory of Death is actually quite reasonable considering it’s probably the largest map in the game. Also, I remember this chapter giving brickloads of exp per enemy kill, and I checked some youtube vids of the chapter just to make sure. A 20/12 Eliwood gains 25 exp killing an unpromoted general, and there’s lots of promoted enemies in this level. Maybe the guy wasn’t playing HHM but I can’t see the exp reduction being so steep that 5*ing the exp rank on that map would be a major issue.

So, in conclusion, while Rath is doing nothing but being a massive detriment towards the team before Nino joins and not benefiting the team even after she has joined (and still being a detriment), Nino is practically essential for S-ranking the EXP rank, which is the hardest rank in the game, has 1-2 range and healing utility (the latter only after promotion).

Correction: Rath finds ways to contribute while Nino is gone, no matter how petty they might be at times, and easily outperforms her when she joins due to a support and level advantage. Nino being a help to the exp rank is a moot point since Rath also helped in the exp rank for the chapters he was in, plus the fact that 5*ing the exp rank isn’t remotely difficult, plus there’s the fact that you can deploy other undeveloped units to do what Nino does. I’m not so sure what’s special about having 1-2 range if you have no offence or durability, and I’ve already explained how her healing utility is negligible.

[Tino]

This is going to suck hard >__<

Nino being so naive to the wickedness of her supposed mother is leaps of fail beyond anything you could claim of Rath. Plus he’s got that shmexy bandana thing going for him. Also, I would’ve given Rath fewer levels in Lyn mode, but I’ll appreciate the generous estimate.

Generosity is such a nice thing, isn't it? Go me!

Perhaps to start with, but remember that Rath is joining pretty late in chapter 21 and fairly underleveled seeing as how people should be promoting by now. Oh wait, Nino joins even later in chapter 26 and even more underleveled. Guess no matter how bad Rath sucks, I could just bench him until Nino arrives and see what happens.

Which means he indeed sucks. He sucks in all those chapters he's available when Nino isn't. As such, he's detrimental to our team. Being a detriment <<< Not being a detriment

And if you do bench him, then he'll indeed be 8/0 or 9/0 by the time Nino joins, which means he also can't immediately benefit from promotion bonuses and swords.

Clearly Rath wins everything even if I haven’t touched him since Lyn mode, which is already saying a lot. Now give him a mere 7 levels in 5 chapters, which is very low considering how underleveled he is but this way he is making a limited amount of attacks and thus not harping on your efficiency in any major way. So, for that tiny negative, Rath is now looking like this:

So he's better than Nino. Congratulations. I must admit that Rath is indeed statistically superior to Nino in this case. But seriously dude, it barely matters since both suck cock as fighters and survivors, so we're not going to want to look at how well they fare in combat. We want to look at what else they contribute to the team, and Nino gains massive experience from a kill, though Rath gains quite a bit as well.

I don't know exact enemy levels in Battle Before Dawn, but that also doesn't matter. Let's assume a ??/5 promoted unit, just for the heck of it.

Nino

Damaging = (31 + (15 + 20) - (5 + 0)) / 3 = (31 + 35 - 5) / 3 = 61 / 3 = 20

Base kill = ((5 * 3) + 60) - (((5 * 3) + 0) / 1) = 75 - 15 = 60

Kill = (20 + (60 + 20)) = 100

Rath

Damaging = (31 + 35 - 10) / 3 = 56 / 3 = 19

Base kill = 75 - 30 = 45

Kill = (19 + (45 + 20)) = 84

Oops. Nino just gained a level while Rath didn't. Let's take a somewhat weaker enemy, a 15/0 unpromoted unit, for example.

Nino

Damaging = (31 + 15 - 5) / 3 = 41 / 3 = 14

Base kill = 45 - 15 = 30

Kill = (14 + (30 + 20)) = 64

Rath

Damaging = (31 + 15 - 10) / 3 = 36 / 3 = 12

Base kill = 45 - 30 = 15

Kill = (12 + (15 + 20)) = 47

That's 17 more experience right there, which almost 20% of a level, which is quite a lot.

Now Rath’s making Nino cry he’s beating her so badly. He could even switch to a brave bow (a pretty damn heavy weapon at 12 wt) and have the same speed as Nino along with double her attack power and double her number of attacks, which is a testament to how badly she’s getting ransacked. Even if both characters suck relative to the enemy, Rath will be much easier to train and may actually double and ORKO stuff. Also, since Rath’s level is so high and he ain’t hittin’ 20/20, you can give him that Orion’s bolt you didn’t give Rebecca or Wil (since they suck) whereas Nino still has to gain 5 levels before she can think of promoting, not to mention she has to compete with Lucius, Serra and Erk for her promo item. So let’s see where that puts us:

One-rounding stuff? Stop making me lol, dude. Sorry, but a 22 atk unit isn't one-rounding things in Battle Before Dawn, except for some magic users if he can manage to double them, which he might or might not. Rath still sucks hard as a fighter with his lollable 22 atk and 33 hp/8 def (that's truly laughable). Indeed, Nino is even worse, but Rath still sucks at killing and living, and Nino at least still has that experience thing going for her, which Rath doesn't have anymore now anyway.

The fact that Rebecca and Wil suck doesn't matter they can't be used. Rebecca and Wil definitely are used from time to time, which means Rath definitely does have some competition. And the opposite is true as well, by the way. The fact that for example Serra is one of the best units in the game doesn't mean she's always going to be used, which means she isn't always part of the competition for one of the Guiding Rings. The same goes for Erk and Lucius, of course, though Lucius isn't exactly one of the best units in the game, but that's completely beside the point.

No contest. Rath almost doubles Nino’s hp (+17), his damage output clearly surpasses the def/res gap, his +5 spd lead pretty much has him doubling stuff while Nino doesn’t have the slightest chance, he more than doubles her defence (+7) and even beats her resistance stat. Without even mentioning mobility, con, accuracy or avoid, it’s pretty clear we’re talking about two very different unit performances.

Yes, he completely owns Nino offensively and defensively. And though it's true his durability has improved a bit, his offense is still balls. Lol at a massive 23 atk. He's still not doing much offensively. And swords don't really help him much, since it requires him to go to the frontlines, where his durability still won't help him much, even though it has improved a bit.

And now Nino's advantage towards the EXP rank shows even more. Rath has now lost the small advantage he actually had when we look at just him and nobody else, which was being sort of useful for the EXP rank, which he definitely isn't anymore now that he's promoted.

Ok, you seem to be implying Nino has durability. Her base defence of 4 and growth of 15% isn’t going to ever allow her to tank physical enemies, which are generally far more plentiful than mage enemies which attack her favourable res stat.

Battle Before Dawn has plenty magic users, as does Night of Farewells. Cog of Destiny has tons of magic users. Victory or Death has plenty Shaman and Valkyrie reinforcements. Both suck against physical enemies, but both are likely to be in the back anyway, not taking counters from all those physical enemies, unless Rath decides to switch to swords to take damage and require healing. And against unit that do counter Nino and Rath, which are magic users, Nino is indeed better with her superior res.

Also, I think you forgot about someone named Guy. Guy doesn’t want Matthew since he is a thief and his stats are terrible, so he’s probably seldom used and pretty much only for thieving utility (yay silver card), while Karel and Louise suck. That leaves Priscilla as his only other option but even then she can support Raven, Erk, Lucius, Oswin and/or Sain, which makes for 5 alternative high/top tier units she can choose to support.

Of course I didn't forget about Guy. And of course Guy gets Matthew. Matthew wants Guy, and Guy wants Matthew for the fast offensive bonuses, which is what Guy excels in: offense. And Matthew definitely wants some additional offense since he'll also have to fight things from time to time. And indeed, he won't always be fielded, but there are practically always things that have to be stolen such as Physic staves and promotion items or whatever, and otherwise there are chests that need to be opened or doors or whatever. And obviously, using Matthew for them > using a strong fighter for them.

Raven can also support Lucius and Bartre, both of which aren't exactly terrible units. Besides, Raven x Priscilla gives pretty terrible bonuses. Lol at hit and crit avo.

Erk is likely to support Priscilla, yes, since it's a fast support, though the bonuses once again aren't anything spectacular: just crt and crit avo.

Lucius is actually a pretty good support for Priscilla as well, since it grants full offense. However, Lucius might be supporting Raven and Serra as well.

Heath sucks. Oswin isn't near her enough. The movement gap between them is way too large.

Sain has Kent and Fiora/Serra already.

That leaves Guy, who gives Priscilla full offense, and he benefits a lot from it himself as well. Guy actually is Priscilla first or second best support option, so he indeed likely gets to support Priscilla as well, which means his slots are filled. No Guy support for Rath.

There’s also plenty of warriors, a couple wyverns, some cavs and a thief, not to mention a couple breakable walls, so his 2 range is serving him just fine. Moreover, the map is “survive for 11 turns” even though the map is pretty small and contains a fairly small number of enemies, so being efficient is not that big of an issue. Once most of the enemies are dead, Marcus/Isadora/whoever just finishes off the boss, with Rath not being the slightest of a hindrance if you use him properly.

Yeah, Warriors who deal massive damage against him with their axes and who counter him with their bows. He fails against them. He might be picking off the few wyverns and cavaliers which are running around, but that truly is it. He's horrible restricted due to pretty much all the other enemies. Fail.

And nobody is a hindrance "if you use him properly". If I "use Nino properly" she's just as good as Oswin, who's just as good as Karel if I "use both of them properly".

Any skilled tactician knows how to handle each situation, so that's a pretty useless point, in my view.

Then just don’t use him there. No negative utility for Rath, and there’s nothing Nino can do since she’s out giving Jaffar a loli lap dance.

So that he will suck even harder when Nino joins, right?

So just use Rath until the shield goes down, then have him retreat like a real winner. If he gets berserked, big deal, he’ll have to travel for quite a few turns before he even reaches anyone and since his offence so far is apparently fail, he won’t be harming anyone, will he?

Which confirms he sucks indeed. Sweet stuff.

And Rath sucks against the physical enemies anyway.

Oh yeah, all that’s assuming you don’t give Rath some spirit water. Not particularly expensive items (each use is equivalent to 3 vulneraries in gold) and he might only need to use 1 for the entirety of the chapter. And of course the map is almost entirely covered in break-able walls, so Rath’s range comes in useful.

And why would Rath get that over somebody else? Because others don't benefit from it? Seriously, I'd rather have, for example, a 30 hp/15 res unit than a 30 hp/10 res unit. Either way, you should get the point.

Also, they're actually rather expensive. 300 gold per use is actually quite a lot.

rescuing, hitting walls, softening enemies, attacking wyverns, Guy support, etc

Rescuing kills his durability. Hitting walls doesn't make him improve at all, softening enemies is something anyone can do, and most do it better than Rath anyway. Anyone can attack wyverns. And then Rath's durability sucks, and wyverns have high attack and come in packs, which means Rath isn't really good for attacking them. And Guy support doesn't happen.

comparison vs. Kent and Lowen

15/1 Rath, B Lyn

Steel Bow: 24.0 atk, 14.0 as ,, 34.4 hp, 10.8 def, 7.0 res, 40.4 avo

Steel Sword: 23.0 atk, 13.0 as ,, 38.4 avo

20/3 Kent, A Sain/B Fiora

Steel Sword: 28.4 atk, 17.4 as ,, 39.8 hp, 14.7 def, 9.7 res, 53.5 avo

Steel Lance: 30.4 atk, 15.4 as ,, 49.5 avo

Steel Axe: 31.4 atk, 13.4 as ,, 45.5 avo

20/3 Lowen, A Eliwood/B Rebecca

Steel Sword: 27.0 atk, 14.0 as ,, 43.0 hp, 17.0 def, 7.0 res, 66.0 avo

Steel Lance: 29.0 atk, 13.0 as ,, 64.0 avo

Steel Axe: 30.0 atk, 11.0 as ,, 60.0 avo

Rath definitely sucks hard compared to them. Lowen is considered to have sucky AS, but he actually ties Rath's, so that would imply that Rath has fail AS as well (or this proves that Lowen's AS is not so bad, but whatever). Anyway, he gets owned on offense. Hard. Kent and Lowen have full WT control and have much more atk. They deal 6~14 damage more, which is an average of 10, which can definitely make a difference.

And Rath gets his face smashed when it comes to durability. Far worse concrete durability, lacks full WT control and has far worse AVO as well. He actually DOES get completely outclassed by these two High/Top tier characters (I don't know where they are ranked these days exactly).

Healing utility? Please, healers are about as unique as fighters by the time she shows up. You have Lucius, Erk, Priscilla, Serra and Pent who are all high tier units who can heal before Nino’s presence, plus there’s Canas, then you have Renault and Athos who also have auto-A in staves for the final chapter. Also, the final chapters are among the easiest in the game, aside from maybe the very last chapter, so healing is needed less there, meaning Nino’s healing would only be doing herself a service in giving people +1-4 hp.

Are you implying healing is a negative? Being able to heal is always a positive, and there are still much more possible fighters than healers. And since units like Serra, Erk and Lucius are much better at fighting, you might even consider using them to kill stuff while Nino gets to heal units in case it's necessary.

I don’t see your point since by the time you recruit Nino, the level’s practically over. It’s also a fairly large map with many promoted enemies, so getting the exp rank without her shouldn’t be much of an issue, and even if it were, you could just deploy an unused Dart or something and have him rack up exp. In fact, just about anyone who’s not part of your main team can be subbed in for these chapters with lofty exp gain requirements, so Nino being so damn underlevelled isn’t really an advantage of any sort.

Yeah, except that this is Nino vs. Rath, and Nino benefits the EXP rank much more than Rath. You would have a perfectly valid point if this were a tier list debate, but it isn't. And compared to Rath, her being so underlevelled definitely is an undeniable advantage. Gaining massive EXP > not gaining as much EXP

The exp requirement for Victory of Death is actually quite reasonable considering it’s probably the largest map in the game. Also, I remember this chapter giving brickloads of exp per enemy kill, and I checked some youtube vids of the chapter just to make sure. A 20/12 Eliwood gains 25 exp killing an unpromoted general, and there’s lots of promoted enemies in this level. Maybe the guy wasn’t playing HHM but I can’t see the exp reduction being so steep that 5*ing the exp rank on that map would be a major issue.

An unpromoted general? I must've missed something...

I'll assume you mean a 20/0 Knight. Assuming a 20/12 unit, he'll gain 18 EXP in HHM, which is definitely a rather significant difference. 70 EXP per 10 kills that you miss.

Though, even if what you said would hold true, there's still Sand of Time which you've forgot to counter.

[Vykan12]

Which means he indeed sucks. He sucks in all those chapters he's available when Nino isn't. As such, he's detrimental to our team. Being a detriment <<< Not being a detriment

Whether Rath is indeed a detriment or not is discussed much further in other points, so I’ll address it in greater detail there. For now, noU!!1

And if you do bench him, then he'll indeed be 8/0 or 9/0 by the time Nino joins, which means he also can't immediately benefit from promotion bonuses and swords.

Certainly, but Rath is still beating Nino in this scenario. He has lyn mode utility, better bases and mobility while Nino can counter at 1 range but doesn’t want to because she’ll get destroyed. Moreover, now Nino’s biggest point against him, this so-called exp rank help pretty much disappears since Rath is only 3-4 levels ahead of her. And none of this changes the fact that I still have the option to deploy Rath in a couple chapters if there’s a free spot available and have him do something useful that doesn’t involve combat such as visiting villages.

So he's better than Nino. Congratulations. I must admit that Rath is indeed statistically superior to Nino in this case.

Conceding a point is cool in my book :P

But seriously dude, it barely matters since both suck cock as fighters and survivors, so we're not going to want to look at how well they fare in combat.

Sure we do, if you want to tier a character accurately, you look at as many aspects of a character you possibly can. Would we examine FE6 Sophia’s performance authentically while ignoring her offensive and durability woes?

We want to look at what else they contribute to the team, and Nino gains massive experience from a kill, though Rath gains quite a bit as well.

I don't know exact enemy levels in Battle Before Dawn, but that also doesn't matter. Let's assume a ??/5 promoted unit, just for the heck of it.

Nino

Damaging = (31 + (15 + 20) - (5 + 0)) / 3 = (31 + 35 - 5) / 3 = 61 / 3 = 20

Base kill = ((5 * 3) + 60) - (((5 * 3) + 0) / 1) = 75 - 15 = 60

Kill = (20 + (60 + 20)) = 100

Rath

Damaging = (31 + 35 - 10) / 3 = 56 / 3 = 19

Base kill = 75 - 30 = 45

Kill = (19 + (45 + 20)) = 84

Oops. Nino just gained a level while Rath didn't. Let's take a somewhat weaker enemy, a 15/0 unpromoted unit, for example.

Nino

Damaging = (31 + 15 - 5) / 3 = 41 / 3 = 14

Base kill = 45 - 15 = 30

Kill = (14 + (30 + 20)) = 64

Rath

Damaging = (31 + 15 - 10) / 3 = 36 / 3 = 12

Base kill = 45 - 30 = 15

Kill = (12 + (15 + 20)) = 47

That's 17 more experience right there, which almost 20% of a level, which is quite a lot.

I don’t really see where you’re going with this, all it’s showing is that Nino is marginally better at the exp rank than Rath is. For high levelled units, Rath gains 84% of what Nino gains, and for lower end enemies, we’re still talking 73%. Not only that, but Nino will be catching up to Rath’s level, so this gap will only diminish over time, and none of this acknowledges how Rath could help you in exp rank when Nino isn’t around.

One-rounding stuff? Stop making me lol, dude. Sorry, but a 22 atk unit isn't one-rounding things in Battle Before Dawn, except for some magic users if he can manage to double them, which he might or might not.

At 17/1 and with supports he has 25 atk with a steel bow, though I guess you meant an iron bow for 22. Still, you’re not seeing how Rath’s superior offence matters. He can turn to a brave/killer/longbow to improve his killing capabilities, he can look to selectively attack pegs and wyverns (and there’s a lot of pegasi in HHM from my initial experience with it) and even if he is 2 rounding, he’s doing so at range, meaning he can either clean up a kill someone else missed or ensure whoever attacks the enemy he injured doesn’t face a counter. You can’t say any of this for Nino. She can’t turn to any super powered tomes until she has the rank to use fimbulvetr, she’s not generally in 2 rounding range of anything at 5/0 and she has a lot less opportunity to attack because of her having only 55% of Rath’s movement.

Rath still sucks hard as a fighter with his lollable 22 atk and 33 hp/8 def (that's truly laughable). Indeed, Nino is even worse, but Rath still sucks at killing and living, and Nino at least still has that experience thing going for her, which Rath doesn't have anymore now anyway.

Rath doesn’t suck at living if you make use of his 10-12 range properly, using narrow corridors, other units, etc as cover. Again, it’s restrictive, but if you constrain Rath to only attacking in such situations when it’s not a burden towards other units to be in a position that happens to give Rath cover, then he’s not risking getting attacked at 1 range while also not being a burden towards your team’s progress. On the contrary, him injuring/killing stuff/supporting Guy/wtv in such situations has worth, and Nino cannot do the same for reasons mentioned already.

The fact that Rebecca and Wil suck doesn't matter they can't be used. Rebecca and Wil definitely are used from time to time, which means Rath definitely does have some competition. And the opposite is true as well, by the way. The fact that for example Serra is one of the best units in the game doesn't mean she's always going to be used, which means she isn't always part of the competition for one of the Guiding Rings. The same goes for Erk and Lucius, of course, though Lucius isn't exactly one of the best units in the game, but that's completely beside the point.

The problem I see is that Guy is hurting the team by needing Rebecca deployed so he can improve himself, especially when the improvement is rather superfluous (Guy is the second best unit in HHM, after all). Though, even assuming we look at Becky as an alternative option for Rath, there’s still the fact that Rath being an option for Guy > not having options at all, which is Nino’s case.

In fact, I’d say that’s a pretty major weak point for Nino. Before you even mention support partners, her having the third worst availability in the game means whoever she supports probably already has a full support set by now, and if not, they only have a B free or something. Now to go through each one individually.

Jaffar is admittedly a good option, it’s a quick support, Jaffar only has 2 other options, both of which are thieves, and Jaffar is a pretty decent lategame unit. Still, I question Jaffar being used seriously unless there’s a few people you raised who got sufficiently RNG screwed.

The we’ve got Erk. He’s got Pent, Priscilla and Serra, so him having room for Nino seems rather unlikely. Morevoer, the two need 54 turns adjacent to each other to get a B, but you have at most 76 turns before the final chapter comes along, gaidens included. Lol at Erk and Nino being adjacent to each other 71% of the time, possibly more. We can use the same argument for Canas, Rebecca, Legault, Florina and Merlinus. In fact, Nino doesn’t even stand much of a chance at getting a C with the last 3, since that takes 41 turns (53% adjacent time).

So who looks better in terms of supports, Nino who is supporting people who either already have full support sets or need to stick to her like glue or Rath being a viable option for Lyn and Guy? Seems like yet another victory for Rath to me.

Yes, he completely owns Nino offensively and defensively. And though it's true his durability has improved a bit, his offense is still balls. Lol at a massive 23 atk. He's still not doing much offensively. And swords don't really help him much, since it requires him to go to the frontlines, where his durability still won't help him much, even though it has improved a bit.

Since you’re just repeating yourself, I don’t feel much point in repeating my own points in return. Though I do feel the need to sound like a broken record about Rath’s options. Swords allow him to have WTA in areas that are axe heavy, which once again doesn’t apply to Nino, who will have sucky durability no matter what she faces, mage attackers possibly being the exception.

And now Nino's advantage towards the EXP rank shows even more. Rath has now lost the small advantage he actually had when we look at just him and nobody else, which was being sort of useful for the EXP rank, which he definitely isn't anymore now that he's promoted.

Rath can choose to not level up at all besides Lyn mode and he’s statistically better than Nino while profiting the exp rank about 75%+ as well as she is. Rath can also choose to wtfdestroy Nino on offence, help the exp rank in his chapters and be of help in other ways while losing this exp rank advantage when Nino shows up. But wait, Rath is still technically under-levelled compared to your other units who are easily 20/6+ so he’s still giving an above average contribution to the exp rank. Then there’s that whole thing about exp rank being easy to achieve by deploying any unused unit who isn’t a pre-promo and having them soak up exp, so both Nino and Rath aren’t really doing anything special in that respect. And, to introduce a fresh point to this whole argument: Nino is hurting your combat rank. Every time she fails to one round an enemy, she’s increasing the odds of making your combat too inefficient to achieve a 5* ranking. You run this risk with Rath too to some degree, but far less since there’s all those aforementioned measure you can take to get him to ORKO stuff.

Battle Before Dawn has plenty magic users, as does Night of Farewells. Cog of Destiny has tons of magic users. Victory or Death has plenty Shaman and Valkyrie reinforcements.

This works in Rath’s favor since he has very good odds of ORKOing magic users. Doubling problems won’t be an issue against Shaman, who get weighed down to oblivion by their dark tomes, for instance. Meanwhile, Nino and her abysmal attack is targeting the enemy’s res, resulting in very minimal damage to the enemy.

Both suck against physical enemies, but both are likely to be in the back anyway, not taking counters from all those physical enemies, unless Rath decides to switch to swords to take damage and require healing. And against unit that do counter Nino and Rath, which are magic users, Nino is indeed better with her superior res.

Although Nino may be able to absorb mage hits better, she’s tinking them in return, which isn’t helping your team at all. On the other hand, if mages take on Rath at range, they’re either dead or severely injured, which means I can do stuff like having someone far away from that enemy use their full movement range, kill the enemy uncountered and clear the path for your other units.

Of course I didn't forget about Guy. And of course Guy gets Matthew. Matthew wants Guy, and Guy wants Matthew for the fast offensive bonuses, which is what Guy excels in: offense. And Matthew definitely wants some additional offense since he'll also have to fight things from time to time. And indeed, he won't always be fielded, but there are practically always things that have to be stolen such as Physic staves and promotion items or whatever, and otherwise there are chests that need to be opened or doors or whatever. And obviously, using Matthew for them > using a strong fighter for them.

Matthew is a terrible unit on HHM outside of thieving utility, though. He gets 2HKOed by everything in the earlygame and with a 25% def growth, that won’t change for a very long time. He also has a low str base and a 30% str growth and swords, so even with doubling his offensive output will never be that impressive. Then he needs a fell contract to promote, which is as bad for your funds rank as using an ocean seal on Dart. I really can’t see how Matthew is being deployed for anything aside from acquiring chests and the odd item here and there, and most of that requires that he takes a path that is separate from the main group to get those chests. I don’t see why Guy would want to take such an inconsistent support (in terms of Matthew actually giving him bonuses), or how you could ever have them adjacent to each other long enough to grow the support, and even if he takes Matthew, Rath is still his only other real option aside from Priscilla.

Erk is likely to support Priscilla, yes, since it's a fast support, though the bonuses once again aren't anything spectacular: just crt and crit avo.

Lucius is actually a pretty good support for Priscilla as well, since it grants full offense. However, Lucius might be supporting Raven and Serra as well.

That leaves Guy, who gives Priscilla full offense, and he benefits a lot from it himself as well. Guy actually is Priscilla first or second best support option, so he indeed likely gets to support Priscilla as well, which means his slots are filled. No Guy support for Rath.

So let me get this straight. Even though Priscilla has 2 other viable support options in Erk and Lucius, she’s taking Guy for sure and leaving Rath without a Guy support with 100% certainty? Don’t think so.

Yeah, Warriors who deal massive damage against him with their axes and who counter him with their bows.

Where did this come from? You almost sound like you’re picking points at random and throwing them at me. Anyways, warriors can’t do both bows and axes on the same turn.

-If Rath attacks the warrior on player phase and he has an axe equipped, Rath gets WTA and will face a low hit rate. Or he could attack with a bow at range and not risk a counter.

-If Rath attacks the warrior on player phase and he has a bow equipped, then Rath once again attacks with a sword and doesn’t face a counter.

-Rath could get attacked on enemy phase and not be able to counter. This only applies if the warrior carries both weapons, which I dare to assert is rather rare. Also, if Rath has protection, he’ll still counter the warrior, though the warrior would more likely look to attack other units who have a 1 range weapon equipped.

None of these scenarios are particularly terrible (if anything, they’re pretty decent), and the only one that Nino goes through is getting owned.

He fails against them. He might be picking off the few wyverns and cavaliers which are running around, but that truly is it. He's horrible restricted due to pretty much all the other enemies. Fail.

And loldiers and mages and pegasi, and it’s not as though he’s 5RKOing everything else like Nino probably is. Then he’s doing all this with 9 move and ranged attacks, so he’s not quite as restricted as you claim him to be. Nino on the other hand…

And nobody is a hindrance "if you use him properly". If I "use Nino properly" she's just as good as Oswin, who's just as good as Karel if I "use both of them properly".

How do you figure that? To be as good as Oswin, she’d have to be able to tank a ton of physical enemies while leaving them all with single digit hp, which isn’t possible with her at 5/0 or even 15/0 no matter how brilliant of a tactician you are. It’s one thing to work around a character’s flaws, it’s another to demand a character to do something that’s statistically impossible.

Any skilled tactician knows how to handle each situation, so that's a pretty useless point, in my view.

Hence why a reliance on a specific strategy is worse than having more freedom. Rath will always have more freedom to contribute since he has higher availability, offence and mobility than Nino ever will, even though both characters are restricted to needing protection. Even then, there’s more negative consequences to pay if Nino is exposed to an attack than if Rath is.

So that he will suck even harder when Nino joins, right?

I’ve already gone over why Rath > Nino even if he isn’t deployed at all beyond Lyn mode until Nino joins.

Which confirms he sucks indeed. Sweet stuff.

And Rath sucks against the physical enemies anyway.

The argument consisted of giving an example of how Rath could do something useful not involving direct combat and you counter by saying he sucks. IMO a suitable counter would be saying something like what Rath’s doing in terms of attacking walls, giving support bonuses, visiting villages, etc is nothing special since anyone else can do it, at which point I’d counter by saying Rath is the only high mobility unit you’d want to use somewhat sparingly in combat.

And why would Rath get that over somebody else? Because others don't benefit from it? Seriously, I'd rather have, for example, a 30 hp/15 res unit than a 30 hp/10 res unit. Either way, you should get the point.

Because you can buy them in infinite supply, not to mention trade them (lol at a single unit using 3 spirit waters in 1 chapter).

Also, they're actually rather expensive. 300 gold per use is actually quite a lot.

Care to prove that assertion? As far as I can see, a spirit water is worth the same amount as 2 javelins, which is somewhat pricey, but certainly isn’t destroying your funds rank to buy one as selling a gem or stat booster would.

Rescuing kills his durability.

That’s why you use rescuing in stretches with few enemies. The whole point of rescuing effectively is to ferry a unit, that is to have a high mobility unit transport a less mobile one, thus making for more efficient travel. Of course there also exists situations where Rath could rescue someone who’s near death hp, has no healing items and isn’t near any healers or something and retreat away with his remaining movement.

Hitting walls doesn't make him improve at all

It does, however, allow your group to advance better. I’m sure you’ve had those situations where you attack a wall at 1 range, and at 2 range, then there’s no room left to attack the wall, so Rath could use a longbow to land the finishing hit and allow other people to pass through to the next room.

softening enemies is something anyone can do, and most do it better than Rath anyway.

Softening up enemies doesn’t have to be a unique function to be effective.

Anyone can attack wyverns.

They’re also among the most durable enemy types in the game, and yet Rath has effective MT bonus against them, which makes him above average in offence against flying enemy types.

And then Rath's durability sucks, and wyverns have high attack and come in packs, which means Rath isn't really good for attacking them.

If you lure in the pack of wyverns, then Rath blicks one while your other attackers take on the rest while at the same time forming an obstruction the enemy has to pass around to reach Rath. You could also have Ninian dance Rath so that he kills 2 wyverns instead of 1, and the packs are usually at most 5, at which point you can easily dispose of the rest on player phase. Plus, there’s other little situations you can take advantage of, such as Rath attacking a wyvern from behind a village using a longbow.

And Guy support doesn't happen.

Yes, I’m sure you need to assume this to make your case. I can’t help but wonder how Lowen and Kent can support Fiora and Rebecca while Rath’s support gets thrown under the curb because Priscilla wants to ignore 2 of her other legitimate options to take Guy on any given playthrough.

15/1 Rath, B Lyn

Steel Bow: 24.0 atk, 14.0 as ,, 34.4 hp, 10.8 def, 7.0 res, 40.4 avo

Steel Sword: 23.0 atk, 13.0 as ,, 38.4 avo

20/3 Kent, A Sain/B Fiora

Steel Sword: 28.4 atk, 17.4 as ,, 39.8 hp, 14.7 def, 9.7 res, 53.5 avo

Steel Lance: 30.4 atk, 15.4 as ,, 49.5 avo

Steel Axe: 31.4 atk, 13.4 as ,, 45.5 avo

20/3 Lowen, A Eliwood/B Rebecca

Steel Sword: 27.0 atk, 14.0 as ,, 43.0 hp, 17.0 def, 7.0 res, 66.0 avo

Steel Lance: 29.0 atk, 13.0 as ,, 64.0 avo

Steel Axe: 30.0 atk, 11.0 as ,, 60.0 avo

Rath definitely sucks hard compared to them. Lowen is considered to have sucky AS, but he actually ties Rath's, so that would imply that Rath has fail AS as well (or this proves that Lowen's AS is not so bad, but whatever). Anyway, he gets owned on offense. Hard. Kent and Lowen have full WT control and have much more atk. They deal 6~14 damage more, which is an average of 10, which can definitely make a difference.

First of all, Rath’s 15/1 speed is 16, so with con loss his spd falls to 15 with the steel bow, not 14. Second, you’re missing the point. Losing damage by an average of 10 points is not a lot when you consider the tier ranking of those 2 characters, and it’s even less if you add in Rath’s Guy support, or take away on of Kent or Lowen’s support, or both, or swap Rath’s weapon to something less generic, so it’s clear that Rath has reasonable means to reach 1RKO territory.

And Rath gets his face smashed when it comes to durability. Far worse concrete durability, lacks full WT control and has far worse AVO as well. He actually DOES get completely outclassed by these two High/Top tier characters (I don't know where they are ranked these days exactly).

For the last time, Rath, like any other bow user, is a backliner who requires protection, so their durability is rarely an issue. Granted, this makes them inherently worse than most worthwhile frontliners and causes their use to be dependant on the positioning of frontliners, but still allows opportunity for positive contribution on a reasonably sized team. I’ve been arguing for a while that Rath won’t hinder your efficiency if you use him opportunistically, only having him attack when your other units naturally form a wall instead of having them go out of their way to offer him protection. This, along with no enemy phase counters until promotion will cost him a hefty bit of levelling, but that’s already been accounted for by giving him only average level gains despite being under-levelled.

Are you implying healing is a negative? Being able to heal is always a positive, and there are still much more possible fighters than healers.

I was implying that Nino’s healing utility is of infinitesimal use, not a negative.

And since units like Serra, Erk and Lucius are much better at fighting, you might even consider using them to kill stuff while Nino gets to heal units in case it's necessary.

Nino clearly isn’t going to have good fighting capability without favoritism in any given chapter, so the only purpose of promoting her would thus be for her to get staves. So why exactly am I using a valuable promotion item on her just so that she can have an E in staves?

Yeah, except that this is Nino vs. Rath, and Nino benefits the EXP rank much more than Rath. You would have a perfectly valid point if this were a tier list debate, but it isn't. And compared to Rath, her being so underlevelled definitely is an undeniable advantage. Gaining massive EXP > not gaining as much EXP

A character comparison is using tier mentality, that should be obvious from how we use average stats, or talk about supports and achieving ranks, so I don’t see where this “only works in a tier debate” argument holds any water.

I'll assume you mean a 20/0 Knight. Assuming a 20/12 unit, he'll gain 18 EXP in HHM, which is definitely a rather significant difference. 70 EXP per 10 kills that you miss.

18 exp is gained from an overlevelled unit killing an unpromoted enemy, which is quite a lot, and the HHM exp is still ~72% of the ENM exp gains according to that conversion factor, so I stand by my statement that gaining tons of levels there isn’t an issue even when using nothing but raised units, which I’d guess to be 20/5-8 at this point.

Though, even if what you said would hold true, there's still Sand of Time which you've forgot to counter.

Sorry about that. Sand of Time is probably the easiest chapter in the game, 90% of the enemies there are bow users which means you could deploy a lot of sucky units and have them soak up kills since they won’t face any counters if you know what you’re doing. About 30-40% of those enemies appear to be promoted and that number may be higher on HHM (again, I’m just skimming a video from a walkthrough).

Edited December 27, 2008 by Vykan12