OMG it's a tier list

[_____]

1/1/1 Micaiah does basically the same job as Oliver, and she's forced. There's no RNG reliance.

[Anouleth]

1/1/1 Micaiah does basically the same job as Oliver, and she's forced. There's no RNG reliance.

Actually, 1/1/1 Micaiah only has 10 magic, which is pretty weaksauce. Only 5 range with Physic, for a start, and heals for twenty. 10/10/1 Micaiah is more than adequate, though. 24 magic, so 12 range, and heals for 34.

[_____]

Actually, 1/1/1 Micaiah only has 10 magic, which is pretty weaksauce. Only 5 range with Physic, for a start, and heals for twenty. 10/10/1 Micaiah is more than adequate, though. 24 magic, so 12 range, and heals for 34.

Recover is only B ranked.

[Zkirsche]

Lol, this Lyre stuff is still going? I gave up ages ago.

If you really wish to continue though, Lyre pushing out another shove bot would be a much smaller negative than Oliver pushing out an important combat unit.

[Anouleth]

Recover is only B ranked.

But her durability sucks, so we obviously want her to stay out of range of enemies, plus she only has 6 move. Also, she will totally fail with Fortify.

[Zkirsche]

But her durability sucks, so we obviously want her to stay out of range of enemies, plus she only has 6 move. Also, she will totally fail with Fortify.

Her durability would likely suck anyway and it's not like people need to be healed tonnes at a time.

[_____]

But her durability sucks, so we obviously want her to stay out of range of enemies, plus she only has 6 move.

And Oliver's durability doesn't suck? I'm not saying that Oliver's is as bad as a 1/1/1 Micaiah, but he probably can't take more than one hit.

Also, she will totally fail with Fortify.

Matrona + Hammerene from 4-E-2 on. 4-E-1 is the only place I can possibly see Oliver maybe helping a little tiny bit, and that's if you didn't raise Micaiah, Elincia, Mist, Rhys, or Laura and have an allergy to Elixers.

[grandjackal]

And Oliver's durability doesn't suck? I'm not saying that Oliver's is as bad as a 1/1/1 Micaiah, but he probably can't take more than one hit.

Bitches don't know about hsi Nosferatu.

[_____]

Bitches don't know about hsi Nosferatu.

You're going to waste someone useful's turn trading weapons for Oliver?

what

[Anouleth]

Her durability would likely suck anyway and it's not like people need to be healed tonnes at a time.

If she was adequately trained, like 10/10/1, she'd be able to use Physic properly and I wouldn't give a flying fuck about her durability.

And Oliver's durability doesn't suck? I'm not saying that Oliver's is as bad as a 1/1/1 Micaiah, but he probably can't take more than one hit.

Oliver has 15 range with Physic and heals for 41. Why is he ever going to be in the range of an enemy?

I understand that Oliver sucks and fails even as a healer, but to claim he's as bad as 1/1/1 Micaiah is just stupid and incorrect. Stupid because Micaiah won't be that level, incorrect because he kicks her ass. I haven't even pointed out that he can actually help kill Levail or take out Spirits and Dragons while she can't do shit.

[_____]

Oliver has 15 range with Physic and heals for 41. Why is he ever going to be in the range of an enemy?

I understand that Oliver sucks and fails even as a healer, but to claim he's as bad as 1/1/1 Micaiah is just stupid and incorrect. Stupid because Micaiah won't be that level, incorrect because he kicks her ass. I haven't even pointed out that he can actually help kill Levail or take out Spirits and Dragons while she can't do shit.

1/1/1 Micaiah does basically the same job as Oliver

Key word.

These are the jobs of each of them in the Endgame:

Micaiah - Heal people

Oliver - Heal people

This is what they're going to be doing for basically the entire Endgame, which probably only takes, if others are to be trusted on this, 10 turns in an efficient playthrough. Actually, you probably don't need any healing outside of Matrona once in a while for the entire thing. Is Oliver better than 1/1/1 Micaiah? No shit. Is it by any substantial margin at all? Not a chance.

[-Cynthia-]

You're going to waste someone useful's turn trading weapons for Oliver?

what

It's not like Sothe has anything better to do.

[_____]

It's not like Sothe has anything better to do.

Running to go grab Matrona.

[Anouleth]

Key word.

These are the jobs of each of them in the Endgame:

Micaiah - Heal people

Oliver - Heal people

This is what they're going to be doing for basically the entire Endgame, which probably only takes, if others are to be trusted on this, 10 turns in an efficient playthrough. Actually, you probably don't need any healing outside of Matrona once in a while for the entire thing. Is Oliver better than 1/1/1 Micaiah? No shit. Is it by any substantial margin at all? Not a chance.

Why am I even getting Matrona? Why should I drag Sothe's worthless ass through a chapter full of Generals he can barely damage just so I can get an extra fancy version of Physic? Matrona is still only 5 range on Micaiah anyway.

Micaiah - Heal people but only with Recover, so we need to protect her and make sure people stay near her pathetic 6 move

Oliver - Heal people fully and fix their biorhythm from absolutely anywhere on the map

- Heal the entire team at once, useful for enemy AOE or to heal Aurora damage

- Weaken Dragons or Spirits with Purge, which is useful since generally healing isn't necessary on most Endgame maps

- Combo with Sanaki to kill Levail, since Sanaki can't kill him on her own even with a Heron backing her up

[_____]

Why am I even getting Matrona? Why should I drag Sothe's worthless ass through a chapter full of Generals he can barely damage just so I can get an extra fancy version of Physic?

Because trailing behind anyone fighting up the left path to grab that staff is the best thing Sothe can do in the entire Endgame and, since you have to kill Lekain anyway, there's no reason not to grab it?

Matrona is still only 5 range on Micaiah anyway.

5-range is a lot of leeway for her.

Micaiah - Heal people but only with Recover, so we need to protect her and make sure people stay near her pathetic 6 move

Or, you know, they could chug a Vulnery or something. It's not exactly hard.

Oliver - Heal people fully and fix their biorhythm from absolutely anywhere on the map

I never realized 4-E-2 through 4-E-5 had such spacious and non-linear maps that couldn't be beaten in a matter of one or two turns each!

- Heal the entire team at once, useful for enemy AOE or to heal Aurora damage

Alright, that's true. Even if we slapped Discipline on her and spammed Recover until she reached S staves, her Fortify range would suck.

- Weaken Dragons or Spirits with Purge, which is useful since generally healing isn't necessary on most Endgame maps

- Combo with Sanaki to kill Levail, since Sanaki can't kill him on her own even with a Heron backing her up

Or someone could just be refreshed right up to him and smack him in the face with a 1-2 weapon.

That's a point I didn't think of, though; with a 1/1/1 Micaiah, Oliver has full Purge, but it doesn't matter because it has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

[Anouleth]

Because trailing behind anyone fighting up the left path to grab that staff is the best thing Sothe can do in the entire Endgame and, since you have to kill Lekain anyway, there's no reason not to grab it?

Sothe gets in the way of people that are actually killing.

5-range is a lot of leeway for her.

According to you, we're beating these chapters in one or two turns, so I fail to see how 11 range is going to reach people next to the bosses.

Or, you know, they could chug a Vulnery or something. It's not exactly hard.

So now, instead of say, attacking Dheginsea and completing the chapter or finishing off an Aura or something, Nephenee or Elincia has to use their player phase to heal themselves. Surely the concept of a healer is to (get this) heal our units so they can do shit instead of sitting around drinking concoctions?

I never realized 4-E-2 through 4-E-5 had such spacious and non-linear maps that couldn't be beaten in a matter of one or two turns each!

Which is why a character that can heal from halfway across the map or can weaken an enemy instead of healing is better than Miss 'Can't do anything'.

Alright, that's true. Even if we slapped Discipline on her and spammed Recover until she reached S staves, her Fortify range would suck.

And it would heal for pathetic amounts as well.

Or someone could just be refreshed right up to him and smack him in the face with a 1-2 weapon.

Sure, except he has 39 defense and Resolve, so many units can't deal good damage to him or double him. Let's throw in Nephenee with a Spear, who hits him for a staggering 8 damage if we manage to cap her strength.

That's a point I didn't think of, though; with a 1/1/1 Micaiah, Oliver has full Purge, but it doesn't matter because it has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

What point are you making?

Can we just forget this pointless line of discussion? I'm willing to support Oliver = Lyre on the tier list at this point (like we had Titania = Mia at one point as well). It's really pointless to compare the two, when they'll never get deployed, and as soon as we say 'but what if we did deploy them' we're throwing efficiency out of the window, which is only really one step away from Smashfanatic-style 'how many millions of statboosters do we need to piss away to make them good'.

[Fenrir]

Would anyone agree with me that zihark should be dropped to upper mid and jill raised to high? i've heard people talking about this but wanna know what majority of people think.

[_____]

I think I've mentioned this before, but I'm not quite sure, so I'll say it anyway.

I'm very wary of having Jill leapfrog half of Upper Mid just because of one playthrough, no offense to Int intended. I had the same qualms with other games as well.

[-Cynthia-]

Zihark has 6 more HP, 6 more Str, 8 more Spd at base (equal Def). These are pretty significant advantages, he doubles everything (with crit), Jill doubles almost nothing. Also, Jill's got some hit issues when she's not using a forge, Zihark doesn't.

Jill closes some of these gaps over time due to faster leveling, but these statisical advantages are signficant. Also, being a tier 2 unit means Zihark has more room for skills like Paragon.

Jill being a tier above Zihark doesn't make much sense when he beats her throughout Part 1 pretty handily. I could see them closer together due to Jill's advantages in Part 3 and 4 though.

Edited June 6, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

I don't know if Zihark should be all the way down in Upper Mid. He should obviously stay a tier above the likes of Micaiah. I mean, Sothe is in high on the weight of his Part 1 performance.

And if we raised Jill, we'd have to push up Jill (T) as well.

I think what we can definitely agree on is:

-Bottom tier possibly reshuffled to accommodate Astrid > Meg > Fiona > Lyre = Oliver, or Lyre and Oliver put into Bottom and Astrid/Meg/Fiona put at the bottom of Low. Really an aesthetic difference, depending on whether you want the gap to reflect the difference between 'unsalvageable' and 'bad but usable' or the difference between 'always negative' and 'minor positive'.

-Ilyana (N/T) above Leonardo. Possibly Ilyana (T) above Tormod, but that might be going too far! Ilyana (T) above Rolf though, definitely.

-Nolan switches places with Zihark. Really, when looking at DB units you should just ignore the GMs clogging up the space between them, otherwise the comparisons are ugly.

(Incidentally, why can't Tormod get a speed or magic transfer? With the Mage Band, his 20/20 average is 29MAG, assuming fixed mode. He can take a Dust or use +mag spells to make up the difference. He's also only 2.1 off his speed cap in Fixed Mode. Any speed band for two levels and a Wing caps it. He can cap both magic and speed with a little bit of room to spare, and it's no more ludicrous that people like Gatrie or Soren getting a speed transfer.)

[-Cynthia-]

Maybe the list accounts for Tormod getitng the transfers but it really doesn't matter anyway. The speed helps him out a little for 1-E I guess, and maybe a bandit or two in 1-8(also might need the Mag for more clean ORKOs on bandits).

[Anouleth]

No, when a character gets say a speed transfer but it doesn't move them, it's listed as say, Zihark (N/T - SPD), for example. Tormod is just listed as (N/T).

[Fenrir]

I don't know if Zihark should be all the way down in Upper Mid. He should obviously stay a tier above the likes of Micaiah. I mean, Sothe is in high on the weight of his Part 1 performance.

sothe is there b/c of P1 performance but is zihark as good as sothe? i would say hands down no way, sothe joins 3 or 4 chapters earlier and can counter ranged attacks with something besides a wind edge which really sucks, so he wins 1-6-1, 1-6-2 is a toss up, probably zihark though, 1-7 they both suck but sothe can open the locks without key, now zihark is behind alot of people in who your gonna use, and sothe is a free unit, 1-8 sothe wins with better terrain mobility, and 1-E id give to sothe because of chests, i think sothe is much better part 1 character (and is also a free character) because zihark is competing with, tauroneo/muarim/vika/tormod/nailah/volug/sothe almost all of which are better in combat not to mention he gets next to no exp. so using a character like jill or nolan pays off in the long run(PART 3)

now in part 3 zihark is at best level 5-6 and he is really bad defensively if you got jill or nolan to class change they are much much better than him and jill is the only flyer and aside from fiona the only cantoing member of DB allowing her to hit n run, which is really helpful. zihark is gonna lose to volug in 3-6 and her comes tauroneo who owns him on 3-12 and 3-13(hes gonna have to compete with 3-13 archer too >.>) so zihark still hasnt stood out in any of his chapters.

now part 4 is rolling in and he shouldnt be above level 10(unless you quick crowned or feed kills to him) now he's thrown out since even lucia is higher level than him and is a Swordmaster with blue hair XP.

all-in-all zihark can help shave a couple turns in P1 but isn't as helpful as sothe there, or jill, who can kill ike on 3-13. Nolan can also help tons on part 3 whereas zihark? not so much.

[RNG Princess]

I don't know if Zihark should be all the way down in Upper Mid. He should obviously stay a tier above the likes of Micaiah. I mean, Sothe is in high on the weight of his Part 1 performance.

And if we raised Jill, we'd have to push up Jill (T) as well.

I think what we can definitely agree on is:

-Bottom tier possibly reshuffled to accommodate Astrid > Meg > Fiona > Lyre = Oliver, or Lyre and Oliver put into Bottom and Astrid/Meg/Fiona put at the bottom of Low. Really an aesthetic difference, depending on whether you want the gap to reflect the difference between 'unsalvageable' and 'bad but usable' or the difference between 'always negative' and 'minor positive'.

-Ilyana (N/T) above Leonardo. Possibly Ilyana (T) above Tormod, but that might be going too far! Ilyana (T) above Rolf though, definitely.

-Nolan switches places with Zihark. Really, when looking at DB units you should just ignore the GMs clogging up the space between them, otherwise the comparisons are ugly.

(Incidentally, why can't Tormod get a speed or magic transfer? With the Mage Band, his 20/20 average is 29MAG, assuming fixed mode. He can take a Dust or use +mag spells to make up the difference. He's also only 2.1 off his speed cap in Fixed Mode. Any speed band for two levels and a Wing caps it. He can cap both magic and speed with a little bit of room to spare, and it's no more ludicrous that people like Gatrie or Soren getting a speed transfer.)

Meg and Astrid are different compared to Fiona and Lyre because their fighting is minimally helpful where as Fiona is either taking a spot in Part 1 or getting 1 rounded or always missing in Part 3. Lyre is a waste of space and resources if you want to use her for fighting.

I say Meg and Astrid considered for low and Fiona, Lyre, and Oliver for bottom

Edited June 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

That's why Fiona is lower than Meg and Astrid.

And seriously, my suggestion puts Lyre at the bottom of the tier list. She can't go any lower, unless you can prove she's worse than Oliver, which can't be done.