OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

Which is irrelevant to Sothe.

It's relevant to Sothe in that transfer files are coming over as Fixed for the other 40+ characters. Now, transfer characters are assumed in a void, but that's because they are being ranked in the same list as normals. If we assume Random mode for Sothe, we're intotroducing an exception to an exception.

And for what? It won't change his ranking at all, even if you use lazy averages and round up, since his gains are lame things like +2 STR, +1 MAG, +5 LCK, +1 DEF, +1 RES. If, god forbid, you considered the possibility that he gets stat-screwed in Random mode, now Transfer Sothe has the potential to be worse than the base one.

[Florete]

Also, I didn't add a Sothe (T) that was worse under the same idea we always use that the player is not a moron. What efficient player would knowingly make Sothe worse off, other than Interceptor (or some other hater, I suppose)?

[Narga_Rocks]

Also, I didn't add a Sothe (T) that was worse under the same idea we always use that the player is not a moron. What efficient player would knowingly make Sothe worse off, other than Interceptor (or some other hater, I suppose)?

I was going to repost this post: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=474&view=findpost&p=8709 in which Interceptor had made a really good transfer sothe (albeit with lower hp than RD sothe), but it appears the link to the image doesn't work anymore.

[Interceptor]

Also, I didn't add a Sothe (T) that was worse under the same idea we always use that the player is not a moron. What efficient player would knowingly make Sothe worse off, other than Interceptor (or some other hater, I suppose)?

The "haters" that you refer to do not exist. When I transfer over a file that includes Sothe, I always make him epic. I am sorry if this revelation -- that I do not intentionally shoot myself in the foot -- undermines your rationalizations. You'll have to find some other reason for ignoring everything negative that I say about Sothe.

We have Fiona on the list. You'd have to be a moron to use her. But she's listed, so that the possibility of that happening can be ranked. Should be no different for Sothe (T), although like I said, since we don't assume that transfers are being compared with other transfers in the same army, we're already making exceptions to the reality of the situation.

I was going to repost this post: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=474&view=findpost&p=8709 in which Interceptor had made a really good transfer sothe (albeit with lower hp than RD sothe), but it appears the link to the image doesn't work anymore.

I probably have the original somewhere I guess, but it is as you say: he had slightly lower HP, but his other stats were pretty excellent. It was from a Random mode playthrough of PoR Hard Mode where I reset-abused his stats, without Blossom (to conserve BEXP).

[Florete]

We have Fiona on the list. You'd have to be a moron to use her. But she's listed, so that the possibility of that happening can be ranked. Should be no different for Sothe (T), although like I said, since we don't assume that transfers are being compared with other transfers in the same army, we're already making exceptions to the reality of the situation.

If you want to use Fiona (people can do that without being morons), you have to use her as the terrible unit she is. If you want to use Sothe, you won't be going out of your way to make him worse unless you're doing it for fun, but fun is not always efficient. If we're assuming the units get used with efficiency as our goal, why would we assume an alternative that takes more work just to be all-around inferior? (Oh, and I'm pretty sure some people do purposely make him worse out of spite. Perhaps not you, but I recall reading it from other members) As much as you may think this is me saying "I WANT HIM IN ME SO HE HAS TO ALWAYS BE ON TOP!" it really isn't. This could be any unit and I'd be making the same argument.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

If you want to use Fiona (people can do that without being morons), you have to use her as the terrible unit she is.

Naturally, I meant in the context of efficiency. If you use her in efficient play, outside of barely-positive utility duties, that's moronic. We put her in Bottom to reflect this.

If you want to use Sothe, you won't be going out of your way to make him worse unless you're doing it for fun, but fun is not always efficient. If we're assuming the units get used with efficiency as our goal, why would we assume an alternative that takes more work just to be all-around inferior?

There's no "going out of your way" about it. In Random mode, he can get stat-screwed no matter what you do. In Fixed mode, he's doomed to mediocre stats. You don't get to pick and choose which characters you bring over once you are in RD, so your only options are either not to transfer, or to take him to the brink in PoR and pull the ripcord at 19 (or earlier) if he looks bad.

I don't see how this prevents us from accurately ranking him on the list. He's worse, who cares? I know that we consider the transfers in a void, which suggests the completely implausible scenario where you play all of PoR to get bonuses for a single character, but that's a pragmatic decision make only so that we can have all characters in the same list.

As much as you may think this is me saying "I WANT HIM IN ME SO HE HAS TO ALWAYS BE ON TOP!" it really isn't. This could be any unit and I'd be making the same argument.

/backs away slowly...

[Florete]

Naturally, I meant in the context of efficiency. If you use her in efficient play, outside of barely-positive utility duties, that's moronic. We put her in Bottom to reflect this.

Yes. I am losing the scope on how this is still relevant.

There's no "going out of your way" about it.

What do you mean? I'm going out of my way just by training Sothe in PoR at all. Hell, it could be considered going out of my way just to recruit him.

take him to the brink in PoR and pull the ripcord at 19 (or earlier) if he looks bad.

That works too. If he's -2 at 19 in relation to his RD bases, I'm not giving him another level.

I don't see how this prevents us from accurately ranking him on the list.

It doesn't prevent us, it just makes it stupid. You could see the list itself as pointless in the first place, but adding something like this would make it feel even more like a joke. It would be like tiering another Mia under the idea that the player doesn't allow her any of the things she's currently assumed; Sure, we could do it, but what's the point? Should we just make a nerfed unit tier list where we assume something bad for all the game's characters?

/backs away slowly...

I made Interceptor back away. I just won the internet.

[Interceptor]

Yes. I am losing the scope on how this is still relevant.

We rank already rank inefficient characters, that's how it's relevant. The fact that efficient play doesn't use Fiona seriously doesn't mean that we can't measure her effect on efficient play in some rudimentary way.

What do you mean? I'm going out of my way just by training Sothe in PoR at all. Hell, it could be considered going out of my way just to recruit him.

Yes, you go out of your way to train him, but not to make him bad (which is what you said). He's bad as a result of either the RNG goddess (Random), or circumstance (Fixed mode). The way you're saying it, it's like someone goes through the trouble of getting 19 empty level-ups on the poor bastard in PoR, just to make him terrible.

It doesn't prevent us, it just makes it stupid. You could see the list itself as pointless in the first place, but adding something like this would make it feel even more like a joke. It would be like tiering another Mia under the idea that the player doesn't allow her any of the things she's currently assumed; Sure, we could do it, but what's the point? Should we just make a nerfed unit tier list where we assume something bad for all the game's characters?

That analogy doesn't work at all. The difference between Sothe and Sothe (T) is just their starting stats. It doesn't say anything about how he's used, which is where you went with your Mia example. We would obviously still want to use Sothe (T) as efficiently as possible, which in his case might mean a different playstyle than normal Sothe. This isn't any different than other (T) characters.

I made Interceptor back away. I just won the internet.

It's easier than you might think; I am notoriously weak against TMI.

[Florete]

We rank already rank inefficient characters, that's how it's relevant. The fact that efficient play doesn't use Fiona seriously doesn't mean that we can't measure her effect on efficient play in some rudimentary way.

Now I go back to how I started: there is only one Fiona to use. It isn't exactly the same with Sothe. It takes less work to keep a superior Sothe, so tiering the inferior version is ludicrous and superfluous. Again, I never said we could not do it, just that it's stupid to.

Yes, you go out of your way to train him, but not to make him bad (which is what you said). He's bad as a result of either the RNG goddess (Random), or circumstance (Fixed mode).

Those are the same things in my eyes. We know Fixed mode will make him bad (which is what is currently assumed), so going out of your way to train him and transfer is the same thing as going out of your way to make him bad.

The way you're saying it, it's like someone goes through the trouble of getting 19 empty level-ups on the poor bastard in PoR, just to make him terrible.

Some people do.

That analogy doesn't work at all. The difference between Sothe and Sothe (T) is just their starting stats. It doesn't say anything about how he's used, which is where you went with your Mia example.

It's not the exact same circumstance, but the analogy works fine. Point is, the player is purposely taking measures to make the unit needlessly worse than they should be. The fact that it's done in different ways means nothing. The end result is the same (and Mia likely will end up with lower stats based on not killing as much).

We would obviously still want to use Sothe (T) as efficiently as possible, which in his case might mean a different playstyle than normal Sothe. This isn't any different than other (T) characters.

Other (T) characters exist because they are better than their standard versions and therefore it is reasonable that a player will go out of his/her way to use them. The only reason I can think of someone using a Fixed Sothe (T) is to fuck around, but fucking around on these games usually isn't the least bit efficient.

It's easier than you might think; I am notoriously weak against TMI.

Your dirty mind. How do you know I didn't just mean Top of the tier list?

[Narga_Rocks]

Your dirty mind. How do you know I didn't just mean Top of the tier list?

And what does "I want him in me" get interpreted as with a clean mind?

Anyway, sothe has bad stats in PoR? Kill him off in Endgame. No transfer. You don't even need to keep him at level 19. I'm fairly certain if a unit is dead when you complete PoR, nothing gets transferred. Not even weapon levels (for those that have weapon levels C and above) even though weapon levels don't need 20/20.

[Interceptor]

Now I go back to how I started: there is only one Fiona to use. It isn't exactly the same with Sothe. It takes less work to keep a superior Sothe, so tiering the inferior version is ludicrous and superfluous. Again, I never said we could not do it, just that it's stupid to.

"Stupid" is a thoroughly unconvincing reason to not tier him. This entire list is a "what if", and transfers are one part of that. It's perfectly logical to tier Sothe (T) even if he turns out worse. It has no effect on normal Sothe at all, due to how the comparisons function.

Also, the "less work" thing is nothing but a re-skinned Papersmash Fanaticblade argument. Remember that they argue that the entire concept of transfers in the tier list is stupid, because you have to play 20+ chapters of a completely different game -- sorry, I need to properly mimic this: a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME -- in order to get the benefits of transfers. Astute readers will note that adding transfers does not move around any regular units (the transfer unit logic was SPECIFICALLY tailored to do this), so therefore all that removing them does is give us fewer things to talk about.

Note that this is exactly what you get out of removing Sothe (T) from the list. He is, after all, just a subset of all transfers.

Some people do.

I think that you are being a bit paranoid.

It's not the exact same circumstance, but the analogy works fine. Point is, the player is purposely taking measures to make the unit needlessly worse than they should be. The fact that it's done in different ways means nothing. The end result is the same (and Mia likely will end up with lower stats based on not killing as much).[...] Other (T) characters exist because they are better than their standard versions and therefore it is reasonable that a player will go out of his/her way to use them. The only reason I can think of someone using a Fixed Sothe (T) is to fuck around, but fucking around on these games usually isn't the least bit efficient.

No, this is comparing apples to oranges, it does not follow that sandbagging her is the same as transferring a less-than-optimal Sothe. There are a hundred ways to play Mia, but she only has one spot on the tier list, and her placement encompasses all of these things. There is no separate ranking for Adept Mia and non-Adept Mia, which is the only way that this comparison would make sense.

Your dirty mind. How do you know I didn't just mean Top of the tier list?

I actually DID think that you meant the Top of the tier list. It seems as though this soldier is not the one with the dirty mind, madam.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

(sigh) What are sothe(T)'s stats? I made a post way back somewhere (I hope this topic) about what the math does. There were options about which RD bases to match and which to give up on. What kind of sothe (T) is the least bad in your opinion? And keep in mind, most losses are by about 1 point when you consider bands (and I may have used enemies to cut back on luck, which I think was above the RD base, and magic, which is nearly useless on him). How far down would he even go? Most of his positioning is from iron knife forges in part 1 and being really good before Volug shows up. 1 or 2 points here and there probably doesn't change much. I think he'd still even be high tier. It's already troublesome enough comparing him to all the GMs. How could I even make a comparison where a couple of enemies not killed makes him suddenly worse than characters to whom it was already hard enough to compare him in the first place?

[Interceptor]

He probably wouldn't go down at all, except to be underneath himself. This isn't terribly different than what happens to Tauroneo, or Calill.

The reason that I brought it up in the first place is because WoMC asked. The reason that I expanded my argument, is because RFoF playfully slid a knife between my ribs. The reason that I continued to discuss it past that, is because I disagree with the reason to not include him on the list in the first place.

In the grand scheme of things, it does not matter, and even in the minutiae of arguing about fake characters on the Internet, I don't really care about it, it's not an important topic to me.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

He probably wouldn't go down at all, except to be underneath himself. This isn't terribly different than what happens to Tauroneo, or Calill.

The reason that I brought it up in the first place is because WoMC asked. The reason that I expanded my argument, is because RFoF playfully slid a knife between my ribs. The reason that I continued to discuss it past that, is because I disagree with the reason to not include him on the list in the first place.

In the grand scheme of things, it does not matter, and even in the minutiae of arguing about fake characters on the Internet, I don't really care about it, it's not an important topic to me.

Well, if he's just going to go under himself, then that isn't a big deal. If you want, pick a set of stats he can attain and I'll put in:

sothe (N/T -2hp, -1str, -1def) or whatever you decide can work best among bad choices.

[Florete]

"Stupid" is a thoroughly unconvincing reason to not tier him. This entire list is a "what if", and transfers are one part of that. It's perfectly logical to tier Sothe (T) even if he turns out worse. It has no effect on normal Sothe at all, due to how the comparisons function.

Then it's also perfectly logical to tier no Adept/Ike support/forge Mia right? It has no effect on normal Mia, after all.

I think that you are being a bit paranoid.

Maybe, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's truth in it.

No, this is comparing apples to oranges, it does not follow that sandbagging her is the same as transferring a less-than-optimal Sothe.

Then at this point it's just a difference of views. I'd call transferring a less-than-optimal Sothe sandbagging him.

There are a hundred ways to play Mia, but she only has one spot on the tier list, and her placement encompasses all of these things. There is no separate ranking for Adept Mia and non-Adept Mia, which is the only way that this comparison would make sense.

That's the entire point I've been making. Recall:

It would be like tiering another Mia under the idea that the player doesn't allow her any of the things she's currently assumed

Obviously it doesn't exist now. It's for the same reason Sothe (T) never existed.

[Interceptor]

Then it's also perfectly logical to tier no Adept/Ike support/forge Mia right? It has no effect on normal Mia, after all. [...] That's the entire point I've been making. Recall:

It would be like tiering another Mia under the idea that the player doesn't allow her any of the things she's currently assumed

Obviously it doesn't exist now. It's for the same reason Sothe (T) never existed.

The difference between these two things is that there is no precedent for two different normal Mias on the list, but there is one for Sothe (T). In the former, we have a new scenario that's never been done before; in the latter, we have the sole exception to the ranking of transfers.

There's nothing illogical about doing what you said (one entry for Mia with stuff, one for without), but it would be a new thing. And it would complicate every other comparison, because one of these Mias needs to be the one that shows up in other people's armies.

Then at this point it's just a difference of views. I'd call transferring a less-than-optimal Sothe sandbagging him.

Well, it's always been a difference of views. Sothe is one of those fundamental things that you and I are never going to agree on, no matter the venue. If someone made a thread about best male hairstyle rankings, an epic duel would probably take place on the subject of his coif.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Gee, I feel like I'm being ignored.

[Fenrir]

Gee, I feel like I'm being ignored.

you are. =/

Is someone really trying to say sothe belongs on top tier?(even with a transfer i dont think he does just my opinion though) or is this arguement about nothing, most of my brain thinks the latter, but that would be pointless so...

[Narga_Rocks]

you are. =/

Is someone really trying to say sothe belongs on top tier?(even with a transfer i dont think he does just my opinion though) or is this arguement about nothing, most of my brain thinks the latter, but that would be pointless so...

It's about whether or not to tier (fixed mode) transfer sothe. sothe (T) is inferior to sothe (N), so there is some debate among the god and goddess of the list as to whether or not to tier him. One probably finds the concept amusing (which I'd bet is the main reason to argue it). The other, I think just doesn't want the guy on the list because nobody in their right mind would transfer the guy (granted, nobody in their right mind would use Fiona for an efficient playthrough, but since we like tiering everybody in a game I think that's a bit different from sothe(T)).

[-Cynthia-]

Considering the other characters on the list are assumed to get the best "possible" transfers, giving Sothe a negative transfer seems somewhat out of place.

[Anouleth]

They're not assumed to get the best possible transfers. Best possible would be Marcia transferring everything but HP and LUK (possible on Fixed Mode).

[Narga_Rocks]

They're not assumed to get the best possible transfers. Best possible would be Marcia transferring everything but HP and LUK (possible on Fixed Mode).

Yes, it is best possible. At least, best possible without insane stat booster usage. Reasonable usage (like giving Ike a robe in PoR) is considered, but stuff like giving Marcia 2 dracoshields and 2 talismans (or whatever it takes) is disregarded.

However, they are getting "best" in the sense that we are arranging bands and enemies (within reason) and weapon use to get maximum transfers (and the best possible, so Jill trades def for spd, since I think she can achieve either one of the two, though I might be wrong about that). However, there is still a "best transfer" for PoR sothe in that you can choose which stats are 0, 1, or 2 less than his RD bases. It just happens that his "best transfer" is inferior to his RD bases. At least on fixed. Does this mean he should be tiered? Well, since Interceptor (probably) sees Red Fox as biased and Red Fox (seems to have) indicated she sees Interceptor as biased, I'd like others to say if they want to see the joke transfer version of sothe on the list.

[Interceptor]

Gee, I feel like I'm being ignored.

Sorry. Next time try maybe insinuating that I'm a biased, petty jerkface. That may get my attention. Anyway, it's moot, since I'm going to recuse myself from the debate.

[Narga_Rocks]

Sorry. Next time try maybe insinuating that I'm a biased, petty jerkface.

Oh, I have to say that? I thought it was understood. :P

Anyway, I wonder if all parties would (kinda sorta) accept having

No Point (tier) (1)

sothe (T - whatever he'd lose written here)

added to the bottom of the list (without the word "tier", obviously). Possibly in spoiler tags. Under "Phail", so people know it's not like that's where sothe(T) would actually get placed.

[RNG Princess]

From what I understand Sothe needs to have capped everything in PoR or at least be equavilent to his bases or else he'll get screwed.

He will need to get at least:

15 hp

13 str

3 mag

13 skill

9 speed

10 luck

10 def

9 res

If capped he will benefit with

+2 str, + 11 mag, +6 def, +11 res, whatever luck he has.

His growths are the best in random mode with blossom but he only has 19 levels to go so he must get lucky. +6def does make him a lot better for part 3 ;) since he's really not getting many level ups in Part 1 even if favored too much. He also needs to be babied a lot because iirc he has no durability, i'd say its worth the defense and luck gains if you don't mind putting too much effort on him in PoR.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Queen_Elincia