OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

It hardly matters in the end. 2RKO is 2RKO. It ca be seen you can bring plenty of people who can 2RKO the auras (though Boyd is nuts enough to have high potential to just smack them out of existence), why would you bring someone who would need the auras weakened to kill, when you can just 2RKO with an entire group and have a steady plan of offense? It's senseless. That's my point. The idea is that you could have the speed, but you could also have the power. Someone that doubles could quad with a brave weapon but outside of swordsmen, there's no reason to let them have at it when they got other options, and they don't ORKO anyways outside of like Boyd.

Anyways...

Also, I'm about to suggest something crazy....

Illyana and Soren gap needs to close. She has chip damage in part 1, thick magic damage with crit, which could spell someone's doom. Due to her starting level, I could see her promoted by part 3. A seal won't change much.

Soren there on has a level lead, and basically a 5 magic damage lead. However, Illyana has a way to cover this, which she can bring from part 1: Arch Thunder.1 more Mt than Elwind and has 15 crit, with which her crit will total to 23. She'll be pulling off random bombs here and there which would be instant kills, as opposed to basically a 4 mt constant Soren would have. Illyana will also be leveling faster. Considering the difference at best is 4, and that it will close soon enough, both getting to 10 isn't unreasonable. Thing is, Soren will never get the speed to have much of an offense lead.

Looking at stats...

Illyana, 20/10/1

37.35 HP, 20 Str, 23 Mag, 25 Skill, 21 Speed, 12.8 Luck, 16 Def, 20 Res

Soren 10/20

34 HP, 14.25 Str, 29 Mag, 25 Skill, 21 Speed, 12.75 Luck, 14 Def, 25 Res.

Both can use staffs, but do note the 3 HP and 2 Def lead, and the fact that Light affinity not only would boost her defense further, but her accuracy for her thunder magic. She also happens to be a quick support for Mia, someone who would love more defense, gives accuracy boost for Illyana, and gives Illyana a bit of offensive padding along with defense. Let's say 3-7. Not sure who'd Soren would support best with, so I'll pair him with a sort of guy still sticking around. He has no defensive support that would want him. C with Mia for Illyana.

1x Warrior lvl 10 (Hand Axe)

HP 42, Atk 32, AS 20, Hit 125, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

Soren would need a defense support to not get 2RKOd, while Illyana gets 3RKOd.

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 37, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 123, Avo 53, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

No hope for Soren here, 3RKO for Illyana.

3x Swordmaster lvl 10 (Steel Blade)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 126, Avo 63, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 15

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Storm Sword)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 114, Avo 64, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 16

If Illyana has a B with a defensive support, or somehow got an A with Mia, these guys 4RKO her whereas they would 3RKO Soren.

2x Axe General lvl 11 (Short Axe)

HP 39, Atk 35, AS 17, Hit 116, Avo 50, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Lance General lvl 11 (Short Spear)

HP 40, Atk 32, AS 18, Hit 111, Avo 52, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

More people she has an easier time getting 3RKOd against while Soren has to worry about 2RKO.

1x Sniper lvl 11 (Steel Longbow)

HP 38, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 122, Avo 56, DEF 18, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 16

Still more.

1x Dragonmaster lvl 10 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 34, AS 18, Hit 127, Avo 48, DEF 21, RES 7, Crit 10, Ddg 12

Yet another she gets 3RKOd by.

Basically this trend continues and grows, as she has 15% more HP, and 5% more defense, while his only noticeable offense lead is magic. Fastforward to part 4, both promoted. Level 10/10 let's say.

Illyana: 42.85 HP, 24 STR, 29 Mag, 30 Skill, 24 Speed, 16.8 Luck, 19.1 Def, 25.5 Def. A Mia=2Mt, 15 Acc, 2 Def.

Soren: 38 HP, 16.75 Str, 36.25 Mag, 30.4 Skill, 26.8 Speed, 16.25 Luck, 16.75 Def, 25.5 Res.

Soren's only noticeable lead is negligeable speed that doesn't really double anything 24 AS doesn't, and a 7 magic lead. Granted this is an offensive lead, that Darkness would increase, but notice that Illyana basically has a 4 HP lead and a 5 Def lead. Moar countering?

Endgame, neither are too different, though I suppose Soren wins due to sheer power advantage, but at least with the dragons, there is no competition for Rexbolt and it's all for Illyana. If I remember correctly that slayer effect triples damage, she would have an effective 65+2 mt against them. Bolting could be brought up for Soren, but my question is why did you go through the painstaking labor to get it?

Other factors are that Soren needs to build up Thunder rank to meet Illyanas, which can give her faster access to something like Thoron.

I dunno...Maybe I'm coocoo. All I know is that I think I might be on to something with Illyana...

[-Cynthia-]

Ilyana does have the advantage of comparing to the DB for a lot of her playtime, and they're more in need of chip damage than the GMs and her durability is more excusable there, since she's tied or even a little better than other characters(Leo,Eddie,Mic etc.) as opposed to being the second least durable person on a very durable team.

I would say Soren is better, but not by much. They should be in the same tier at least.

[grandjackal]

Well some things to clear up.

Illyana's a bit more important to the DB, and joining hte GM she won't be so different from Soren aside from starting level. He might have a magic lead, but she has a sheer crit lead thanks to Arch Thunder.

Basically she wins part 1, might win a bit in part 3 due to Arcthunder, being able to at times rejoin the DB (that can happen, right?), and part 4 Soren wins offense while Illyana wins defense, and probably being a better choice endgame due to being able to use sniper magic anyways, and being the sole user of Rexbolt for the dragons. It's still close though, as Soren is hitting quite noticeably harder now.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well some things to clear up.

Illyana's a bit more important to the DB, and joining hte GM she won't be so different from Soren aside from starting level. He might have a magic lead, but she has a sheer crit lead thanks to Arch Thunder.

Basically she wins part 1, might win a bit in part 3 due to Arcthunder, being able to at times rejoin the DB (that can happen, right?), and part 4 Soren wins offense while Illyana wins defense, and probably being a better choice endgame due to being able to use sniper magic anyways, and being the sole user of Rexbolt for the dragons. It's still close though, as Soren is hitting quite noticeably harder now.

Well, something some might bring up so I'll disagree with in advance. Raising Ilyana to second tier, or almost second tier anyway, in part 1 means you have less tier 2 units for the DB's part 3 chapters.

Here's the thing with that, though:

Sothe

Volug

Nolan

Jill

Zihark

Tauroneo (2 out of 3)

Black Knight (the other 1)

Do you even need another wall or chokepoint holder?

Didn't think so. Shouldn't even need that many, to be honest.

You can easily raise Jill, Nolan, Ilyana, and Micaiah to level 20, or at least really close, so that they (aside from Ilyana) are 20/1 or 19/1 for 3-6. We have seals, might as well use them. You might even be able to push Leo to 10/1 if you want.

Anyway, Ilyana will eventually have a better enemy phase than Soren. 3HKOd by more things (4HKOd by 4-5 cats, hawks, ravens), since he'll mostly be 2HKOd. And she comes with a +def support to push it further. There's a reason I keep raising her and not Soren.

[Florete]

Except Ilyana won't even be close to Soren when she rejoins. At best she'll be something like 18/1, which gives her the following stats:

HP: 27.3

Str: no one cares

Mag: 16

Skl: 16.6

Spd: 15.8

Luck: 8.4

Def: 7.8

Res: 13

And no support because anyone she had got left behind. To this, base level Soren has +.7 HP, +7 Mag, +4.4 Skl, +2.2 Spd, +.6 Luck, +1.2 Def, +8 Res. He cleans her across the board, and that's without any levels or a support considered. And then the only growths she wins are HP (15%), lolStr(20%), Luck (5%), and Def (5%), but that will never be enough to catch her up, especially since both will be 2HKOd for like forever, only Ilyana is much more easily doubled (Halberdiers start hitting 20 AS as soon as 3-3, and it's unlikely 30% Spd will get her to 17 fast enough). Neither double, but +7 Mag is a complete blowout, and then Soren also has ~9 more innate Hit as well, though that isn't a big deal unless Ilyana isn't promoted yet. Ilyana has nothing on him and never will either.

He might have a magic lead, but she has a sheer crit lead thanks to Arch Thunder.

What Arcthunder? The one that comes for 2550 on 1-E and Soren can also use?

being able to at times rejoin the DB (that can happen, right?),

Nope.

[grandjackal]

So is this saying Illyana should rise, or just helping show that Soren and Illyana should be in the same tier at least?

As for Red Fox...

1. How is it you couldn't raise Illyana 8 levels when her chip damage is quite potent in part 1 due to magic and crit, has laguz to fight, could support someone in the DB regardless to help them out?

2.At 20/1, they really aren't that different aside from magic.

3. Soren can't use Archthunder because his starting rank is B.

Then think of Thoron, which comes in 3-11. Soren still won't have the rank (he'd have to focus solely on thunder, and with the fact he's not doubling and indurable, it'll take forever), while Illyana has it naturally. Soren can't get Tornado without waiting for part 4 to nab it from the DB caravan. It can close the gap on Soren's offense while still maintaining crit leads. If he can't nab Arcwind (again, not until part 4), it effectively closes the offense gap by 3.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

So is this saying Illyana should rise, or just helping show that Soren and Illyana should be in the same tier at least?

I hope you noticed my post after saying this.

Also, Ilyana promotes for E ranks in Fire and Wind, which means she's stuck using suck tomes until she can get them up. Granted, no one really wants Discipline, so that speeds things up, but it also means she has less room for actually good skills, and Soren doesn't need it, so it doesn't really help her.

1. How is it you couldn't raise Illyana 8 levels when her chip damage is quite potent in part 1 due to magic and crit, has laguz to fight, could support someone in the DB regardless to help them out?

A couple reasons. I have other DB members I want to raise so they don't suck for 3-6/12/13, which are much more difficult chapters than GM's have. She's also 2HKOd by like everything because of lol2 def base, so no enemy phase, and she has a very difficult time ORKOing anything because she loses the ability to double immediately, if she even had it. Chip damage won't get 8 levels.

2.At 20/1, they really aren't that different aside from magic.

Even at 20/1, base level Soren still leads in everything but HP and Luck, while still pulling massive wins in Mag and Res, and growths in the important areas. 2 levels doesn't do much for Ilyana.

3. Soren can't use Archthunder because his starting rank is B.

60 WEXP won't take long to get if he's really determined, or he can use Discipline to cut the time in half, or an Arms Scroll, or if he got a transfer. Much more easily worked around than Ilyana's problems.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[charmander6000]

Speaking of Soren why is Calill > Soren? Calill doesn't double anything Soren doesn't until she promotes in part 4 (assuming no early crown or it'll be later). She only beats Soren during endgame while Soren is contributing for all of part 3.

[grandjackal]

Also, Ilyana promotes for E ranks in Fire and Wind, which means she's stuck using suck tomes until she can get them up. Granted, no one really wants Discipline, so that speeds things up, but it also means she has less room for actually good skills, and Soren doesn't need it, so it doesn't really help her.

Why would she want to? The Fire and Wind spells available in the GM chapters are garbage compared to the Arcthunder she comes with and the Thoron she gets eventually.

A couple reasons. I have other DB members I want to raise so they don't suck for 3-6/12/13, which are much more difficult chapters than GM's have. She's also 2HKOd by like everything because of lol2 def base, so no enemy phase, and she has a very difficult time ORKOing anything because she loses the ability to double immediately, if she even had it. Chip damage won't get 8 levels.

Right, ranged magic crits on laguz will. Typically we don't overuse DB units, and getting Illyana exp is not that hard.

Besides, Narga addressed that above, you got plenty of safety units for the DB.

Even at 20/1, base level Soren still leads in everything but HP and Luck, while still pulling massive wins in Mag and Res, and growths in the important areas. 2 levels doesn't do much for Ilyana.

They TIE speed, they TIE skill, they TIE luck, they TIE HP, they TIE defense, he doesn't lead ANYWHERE but mag and resistance. Illyana on the other hand has Arcthunder, a 15 crit weapon. It's about as close to magic killer weapon you can get. She will be killing far more often than he will, and often a OHKO.

60 WEXP won't take long to get if he's really determined, or he can use Discipline to cut the time in half, or an Arms Scroll, or if he got a transfer. Much more easily worked around than Ilyana's problems.

Illyana's problems being more durable than Soren? I don't recall that ever being a problem. The fact that Soren needs resources to get to Illyana should show something. That's also 60 battles he needs to partake in to catch up, since he's never doubling ever.

This is also ignoring the fact that magic chip/finishing/critbombing in the DB chapters while defense supporting has been a positive up until then.

Also, Charmander raises a good point.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[_____]

Why would we waste money on Arcthunder, anyway? We could just forge a tome with basically the same stats, but double the uses.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

Because if I recall, forging magic is insanely expensive.

[Interceptor]

I regret being unable to post much this week, but reading this thread is priceless. I know now that if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, Narga could easily take the mantle of being a one-man smash_fanatic Truth Squad<tm>. I am glad that I'm not the only one who is objecting to poor strategy.

On topic, WRT Arcthunder, there's no way in hell that Ilyana is seriously using that weapon. Not only can I make something better just by giving her a forge, but Ilyana cannot hit the broad side of a barn with Arcthunder. It only has 70 HIT, and Ilyana is supported with exactly nobody. Not even Ike's authority stars can save her, I'm afraid. Look at her 20/1 stats with a 70 HIT weapon, compare it with the avoid of some random d-bag in 3-2, and try not to throw up in your mouth when you realize how much SKL/LCK she'd need to rock and roll in that chapter.

EDIT: as an example, it costs about 7500 gold to max out a Thunder forge, which is actually somewhat insane. But if I do that, I get this:

8mt, 95 HIT, 20 crit, 40 uses. Compare this to:

7mt, 70 HIT, 15 crit, 25 uses.

Not even on the same planet. You can cut down some costs by making it closer to Arcthunder, or frnakly by forging her Fire instead, which is manifestly superioer to anything that Arcthunder cna do except for killing Dracos.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Interceptor

[Florete]

Also, Ilyana promotes for E ranks in Fire and Wind, which means she's stuck using suck tomes until she can get them up. Granted, no one really wants Discipline, so that speeds things up, but it also means she has less room for actually good skills, and Soren doesn't need it, so it doesn't really help her.

Why would she want to? The Fire and Wind spells available in the GM chapters are garbage compared to the Arcthunder she comes with and the Thoron she gets eventually.

Because Arcthunder doesn't last forever, and if she sticks with Thunder she'll run into Hit issues. And if she sticks with Thunder, she'll have no bonus damage against Flying and beast laguz, so there goes the possible 4-5 advantage.

A couple reasons. I have other DB members I want to raise so they don't suck for 3-6/12/13, which are much more difficult chapters than GM's have. She's also 2HKOd by like everything because of lol2 def base, so no enemy phase, and she has a very difficult time ORKOing anything because she loses the ability to double immediately, if she even had it. Chip damage won't get 8 levels.

Right, ranged magic crits on laguz will. Typically we don't overuse DB units, and getting Illyana exp is not that hard.

Besides, Narga addressed that above, you got plenty of safety units for the DB.

Crits are unreliable. She has 16 crit with Elthunder, and Laguz have 6-9 Dodge, and she also pulls like 65-70 displayed hit, so she might just miss.

Even at 20/1, base level Soren still leads in everything but HP and Luck, while still pulling massive wins in Mag and Res, and growths in the important areas. 2 levels doesn't do much for Ilyana.

They TIE speed, they TIE skill, they TIE luck, they TIE HP, they TIE defense, he doesn't lead ANYWHERE but mag and resistance. Illyana on the other hand has Arcthunder, a 15 crit weapon. It's about as close to magic killer weapon you can get. She will be killing far more often than he will, and often a OHKO.

Where the fuck are you getting those stats? 20/1 Ilyana vs. --/5 Soren:

Ilyana leads: .4 HP, 3.6 Str, .2 Luck

Soren leads: 6 Mag, 3.2 Skl, 1.6 Spd, .6 def, 7 Res

How the fuck are those ties? And what if Soren is actually used in 3-P and 3-1 where he'll get levels and a support?

60 WEXP won't take long to get if he's really determined, or he can use Discipline to cut the time in half, or an Arms Scroll, or if he got a transfer. Much more easily worked around than Ilyana's problems.

Illyana's problems being more durable than Soren? I don't recall that ever being a problem. The fact that Soren needs resources to get to Illyana should show something. That's also 60 battles he needs to partake in to catch up, since he's never doubling ever.

Ilyana is not more durable than Soren. Both are 2HKOd for a while, only Ilyana has troubles with "lol I get doubled." Maybe by late part 3 she'll be able to take an extra hit, but by then Soren will have a support and ultimately more avoid, especially since he's much better at using BEXP due to cap ramming Mag, Skl, and Res.

Soren needing resources to get to Ilyana? Stop, step back, and take another look at things. Soren has nothing to catch up to. Ilyana is the one trailing behind. So Ilyana can use Arcthunder, who gives a fuck? Soren still beats her in everything except lolCrit, where even he can close the gap eventually.

[charmander6000]

Because if I recall, forging magic is insanely expensive.

A +4 Mt, +9 Crit Thunder Tome (about the same stats as Arcthunder) costs 99 per use while Arcthunder costs 102 per use. It also has better hit.

[_____]

A +4 Mt, +9 Crit Thunder Tome (about the same stats as Arcthunder) costs 99 per use while Arcthunder costs 102 per use. It also has better hit.

Alternatively, a +2 MT and +15 Crit Fire tome costs 62 gold per use. Same thing as the forged Thunder, but costs less and even more hit. Since Jackal is assuming that Ilyana is promoted, giving her this seems to be a better choice.

However, Soren also has this option, so Jackal's Arcthunder point is null.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

I'll..let up on Soren and Illin ;;>>

[Narga_Rocks]

I regret being unable to post much this week, but reading this thread is priceless. I know now that if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, Narga could easily take the mantle of being a one-man smash_fanatic Truth Squad<tm>. I am glad that I'm not the only one who is objecting to poor strategy.

Yeah, but it's still better having someone with me on things (like Pretty Boi Wolf, this time. Though I disagree with some of his other suggestions, it's good to have someone on my side in some things).

Other times, I've felt like a voice crying in the wilderness, or the sole voice of reason, that type of thing. I'm sure you've felt that way here before.

On topic, WRT Arcthunder, there's no way in hell that Ilyana is seriously using that weapon. Not only can I make something better just by giving her a forge, but Ilyana cannot hit the broad side of a barn with Arcthunder. It only has 70 HIT, and Ilyana is supported with exactly nobody. Not even Ike's authority stars can save her, I'm afraid. Look at her 20/1 stats with a 70 HIT weapon, compare it with the avoid of some random d-bag in 3-2, and try not to throw up in your mouth when you realize how much SKL/LCK she'd need to rock and roll in that chapter.

EDIT: as an example, it costs about 7500 gold to max out a Thunder forge, which is actually somewhat insane. But if I do that, I get this:

8mt, 95 HIT, 20 crit, 40 uses. Compare this to:

7mt, 70 HIT, 15 crit, 25 uses.

Not even on the same planet. You can cut down some costs by making it closer to Arcthunder, or frnakly by forging her Fire instead, which is manifestly superioer to anything that Arcthunder cna do except for killing Dracos.

Yeah, I generally just go with a forged thunder in part 1 and forge a fire tome in 1-E and carry both with me to part 3. It's actually why I lose some Ilyana cargo slots. Still, either weapon can be used by Soren so sadly it doesn't help Ilyana much, though I'd like it to do so. Really my point with the two of them is we simply don't let either of them be attacked in part 3. At which point Ilyana is less good than Soren, but only in that she can't finish as many kills as he can. Then in part 4 she can actually do something enemy phase and he's still killed by two sneezes (Ilyana 3) and has slightly less luck, though the luck lead doesn't exactly help much. Since he's not exactly going to start doubling in part 4, it doesn't much matter that she has less spd and a lower cap. Plus the mag gap won't be so huge anymore thanks to mag caps in tier 2 that both reach. She's also better with bexp in tier 3, so in the 4-E bases she can actually gain some benefit by finishing levels, which partially counteracts Soren's bexp ability in part 3. Ilyana is actually quite helpful in part 1 whereas they are both kind of meh in part 3, then Ilyana is better in part 4 again. If Soren's meh in part 3 is significantly less meh than Ilyana's meh in part 3, then maybe he pulls off the win overall, but I don't see them this far apart.

@Red Fox of Fire

As for the evade argument for part 4 and Soren, well if he's got a 20% chance to die in 2 hits and Ilyana has a 0% chance to die in 2 hits, I'm going with Ilyana on durability there. Over time he might need healing less often, but since I'm letting her be attacked more frequently she'd need more healing anyway, so it doesn't matter much. His avo lead is basically irrelevant.

Note that I didn't actually bother to check his possible avo stats compared to enemies in part 4, but to get his chance to die lower than 20% he'd need more avo than I think he can get.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Couple changes I could see made due to brave argument for endgame.

-Boyd due to only needing 34 STR and an attack support to 2RKO with a brave axe (VERY easy to attain), possible 40 ATK with attack support and brave axe possibly able to ORKO an aura outright, the former option showing that he could easily be crowned and be endgame viable, I vouch that Boyd go higher, possibly somewhere in high.

-Oddly enough, Aran's current placement now seems justified.

-Brom>Taur

-Devden to lower mid.

-Keiran a bit higher, possibly above Muarim.

-Geoffery above Cain and Giffca (not to sure about this one actually, but...If you guys wanna discuss it).

-This is just me, I still say Leo should be above Rolf.

-Astrid to bottom of low. Not that she's any good, but being forced in her chapters...Better than doing nothing, ya?

-Lyre>Meg?

Just other explanations though.

-Renning will need an energy drop, a Brave Axe, a level, and an A support with an offense booster to 2RKO auras.

-Gatrie might go even higher, now that he has a good reason to go to endgame, granted you built his axe rank up to brave use first.

-Ena and Gareth up by...some amount...Now that it is shown they can be just as useful as Nasir with brave weapons being concerned.

Thoughts?

[_____]

...

It's one extremely small chapter, dude. We aren't going to remodel the tier list because people can now 2RKO auras.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Ninji

[Narga_Rocks]

-Gatrie might go even higher, now that he has a good reason to go to endgame, granted you built his axe rank up to brave use first.

Just as a note, Gatrie should start at B and it takes C to use the brave axe, so he's good.

-Ena and Gareth up by...some amount...Now that it is shown they can be just as useful as Nasir with brave weapons being concerned.

Actually, I for one was already a huge fan of them both in 4-E-5. They let my Elincia ORKO the bottom middle aura on turn 1, they let Marcia and Calill combine to ORKO the bottom right aura, they let Shinon do even more damage to one of the middle side auras. All of that is with Nasir as well, but Nasir alone ain't doing it. Nasir is still a little more useful than they are, though, depending on team setup. I think there were a couple of attacks I performed with just Nasir in my 2 turning Ashera. Of course, 3 out of 4 corner (cover tile) auras tend to die from Mia + Nailah with reyson vigor on turn 2, so I might not have used Nasir more. Parity is fun. Oh, and I know that Tibarn is better for it since he can do it at base and Nailah needs a speed point, but oh well. I like her more.

...

It's one extremely small chapter, dude. We aren't going to remodel the tier list because people can now 2RKO auras.

I basically agree with you, however since everyone doubles in 4-E-3 against not deg then since the brave weapons do pretty well against auras then they can also be used on whites, anyway (Low spd units tend to have more str than high spd units. Not in all cases, but many). 4-E-4 I don't think it much matters, and it doesn't help the other chapters because of weapon durability issues. Hence why I agree, low speed is still not so great in 4-E.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

...

It's one extremely small chapter, dude. We aren't going to remodel the tier list because people can now 2RKO auras.

A tiny part that dissuades people's choice of characters entirely for this one part, as to come here you HAVE to get through the first 4 bits first, and disuade training certain units alltogether. Some units can function perfectly fine through the first 4 parts, but could fall just short of lets say a point of speed in their speed cap in this one chapter, and thus disuade their use entirely because it's the final part of the game and we can't afford to bring people going under par. With braves, these characters now can compete throughout the entire of endgame and thus, have a reason to be chosen for it. Danved's a great example, he can perform decently in part 4 pre endgame and for most of endgame, but due to speed cap he wouldn't even be allowed into endgame due to how fuckballs he would be against auras. Now with the brave lance and his fire affinity, he can perform just fine, so his part 4 would be decent overall.

This goes for the likes of Brom too, he's perfectly tough as hell, and has a form of offense and putting that water affinity to good use.

Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly, but...These characters basically have a reaso to be used now, rather than just inevitably thrown away.

[_____]

90% of the Endgame isn't composed of Auras, though. It's mainly composed of Dragons, Spirits, and Beorc classes. To raise a character that isn't solely in the endgame based only on 4-E-5 seems absurd.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Ninji

[Florete]

I agree with Ninji. There's no reason anyone should be moved based on performance in what is likely a 3-4 turn map.

These characters basically have a reaso to be used now, rather than just inevitably thrown away.

I don't really get what you're trying to say. Are you saying a unit like Boyd should be used more often than someone like Mordecai because he's better in endgame? That doesn't help anything, especially when considering royals, Giffca, and units like the Hawks, Stefan, Volke, and Elincia who are practically endgame ready as it is.

[grandjackal]

90% of the Endgame isn't composed of Auras, though. It's mainly composed of Dragons, Spirits, and Beorc classes. To raise a character that isn't solely in the endgame based only on 4-E-5 seems absurd.

How do I explain this....

OK.

That part of the game with the auras is vital, as getting through those auras lets you beat the game quicker. Very few have the speed to use Nasir, and thus it is very limited. You wouldn't purposefully bring someone into this part of the game unless they could kill quick, would you? It's like FEDS...You COULD go the long way, or you could warp Nagi to jihad on Medius, then warp Marth to land the finishing touch.

The only options were basically those who hit 34 AS, as VERY few have the potential to ORKO auras with any weapon. Thus you would bring those that could 2RKO. I have shown that you can get the same effect from braves, and frees up Nasir for those with 34 AS, which would in turn now leave Nasir so cluttered. Unfortunately, this one part can be a breaker for some characters. You wouldn't bother if they couldn't do it as quickly as those that can double. With the brave weapons, it can be shown that there are more options to chose from. It is no longer so intensive on those with 34 AS alone.

It's not like I'm saying to make Cain plummet or something like that. Perhaps I'm just a bit off minded, just realizing that this game isn't so chunked up as I thought...

I know I'm not being clear, but I'm unsure how to explain it. Basically it's no longer sucking during a key part of the game.

Basically, only people that can do better than 2RKO on auras is Cain with a +2 ATK, Giffca with a +3, and Boyd with a 40 STR, 34 Speed, both blood tides and Nasir, and a full ATK support. If you can 2RKO, you are passable for this part, and thus more easily welcomed into endgame as a whole for it.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

I think Boyd's Endgame superiority is already factore in, if Mordy had a decent Endgame(or could double without Resolve lol) he'd be higher.