OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Astrid is only really vaguely useful in 3-9, because at least there she can put out a fire and save someone a player phase and she can potshot something and allow different combinations of units to KO, since our offensive issues are a lot greater here than they were on 2-3.

Ike doubles a lot more than Haar does(IE everything but SMs as opposed to nothing), which is the basic reason he's higher. There are a lot of other factors to it of course, but that's the short of it.

As for Reyson, I could see him below Ike/Haar. They have almost double his pre Endgame availability, so he would have to be a bout twice as useful to make up for it, and considering how we have to protect him I'm not so sure of this.

I'm actually not sure Reyson is the best choice for Endgame. Except for 4-E(1) we don't really care about Reyson's Canto vs. Rafiel not having it(we should give Rafiel Celerity anyway), and Rafiel can Vigor 4 units on turn 1, which means he'll be doing this 4 more times than Reyson will, which is pretty big.

[Florete]

As for Reyson, I could see him below Ike/Haar. They have almost double his pre Endgame availability, so he would have to be a bout twice as useful to make up for it, and considering how we have to protect him I'm not so sure of this.

Canto helps with the whole protecting thing, and he pretty much is at least twice as useful since he can be them + any combo of two others like Titania, Oscar, Mia, Shinon, Gatrie, Janaff, Ulki, etc.

I'm actually not sure Reyson is the best choice for Endgame. Except for 4-E(1) we don't really care about Reyson's Canto vs. Rafiel not having it(we should give Rafiel Celerity anyway), and Rafiel can Vigor 4 units on turn 1, which means he'll be doing this 4 more times than Reyson will, which is pretty big.

If we take 10 turns for 4-E-2 (the limit for BEXP while acquiring lots of CEXP), Reyson's Canto is very handy because it's a big open space, so he's much easier to protect. Canto and flight both help him with the gaps in 4-E-4. 4-E-5, Canto allows another unit to move into the space he Vigored from.

[-Cynthia-]

But we don't care about protecting herons for most of Endgame. They aren't attacked from 4-E(3) to 4-E(5), and 4-E(2) is just Ike with a Hammer anyway.

[charmander6000]

You know I've never understood the mentality of Reyson = your 4 best units. Besides the usual defence problems, needing a couple of turns to transform and grass and providing only player phases in many chapters where enemy phase > player phase we have the fact that Reyson isn't always vigoring four units. Not everyone has canto and until 3-E I'm usually averaging 2-3 units and even with more canto units I may not always get all four spots as it causes the team to become too restrictive. Also why would I keep my best units near each other? I usually send one to a pack of enemies so he can solo it during enemy phase. Unless the map is tiny the average Reyson vigor should consist of one great unit along with other good units that may or may not total to four.

[Zkirsche]

I think Astrid > Meg. Astrid can use paragon from the very start and doesn't have to go through part 3 hell. Plus, she has more mobility than Meg, a better affinity, and feeding her kills is less of a negative because we don't really like using the CRK, meaning that the team's performance in the long run isn't affected as much as it would with Meg and the DB, which has units we like to use in the long run such as Jill, Nolan and Zihark. Oh, and Astrid can have PoR bonuses to help her.

Also, I think Nailah is overrated, there's no real reason to keep her above, say, Shinon who has over 3 times as much pre 4-E availability than what Nailah has. There's also no real reason why Nailah should be 2 tiers above the BK for having 3 more chapters worth of fighting (counting 4-E as 2). Shinon is also arguably comparable to Nailah in 4-E thanks to 1-3 range and superier crit. A 20/10 Shinon with 'A' Mia has more Atk with the double bow than a level 34 Nailah does with 'B' Mist.

Maybe I'm pushing too much in one post, but I think Ena is underrated as well. How is Stefan, who has practically the same availability as Ena a tier ahead of her? Ena's offence with magic cards isn't terribad (42 Atk with daemon cards. Base Stefan only has 5 more Atk, and he attacks def. Though he doubles and crits.). Her defences are also superier to Stefan's, she has a better affinity and blood tide = win. Ena for Low tier pl0x.

Edited August 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Interceptor]

Astrid seems to me like the best of Bottom, personally, just owing to the fact that she can potshot, Canto, and Rescue. Sure, her bases are atrocious, but they are better than Meg/Fiona's. Her growths are underwhelming, but Bottom tier units have a lot of trouble growing without accruing massive negative utility in the first place. With a Silencer or a forge, she can put ORKOs in range for people who are borderline, and doesn't take counters generally. She can even do things like pick up fatass Gatrie and move him closer to the front lines, which is already substantially better than what we can expect from the tier 1 Bottom tier failures.

Also, about Raisin, I agree with Cynthia on availbility and Endgame. Logic suggests that Raisin would need to be twice as good to tie someone with twice his availbility, and I think that he fails this test. Also, Rafiel is indeed the best Endgame heron for efficiency. Taking 10 turns in 4-E-2, for example, is inefficient. You are so close to the end of the game that you will never get those turns back, there's not enough time to leverage whatever CEXP that you spent the time getting. Rafiel is excellent in 4-E-2 simply for the fact that he can Vigor both Sanaki and Micaiah on Turn 1, meaning that Wishblade is yours immediately. Raisin cannot do this.

I also agree with charmander. Raisin is not giving you your four best units, he's giving you the PP of up to four of the units that are close to him. It's also inaccurate to say that he's giving you Ike levels of performance for example, because part of wehat makes Ike amazing is his Enemy Phase, where most of the action in this game happens (and Raisin has nothing to do with this).

If you put that against his durability issue (the fact that he does not get ORKO'ed does not mean he doesn't have durability issues that require protection for him, and Canto does not mean that he can always fly totally out of range while still keeping up with an army moving at high speed), and the issue with having to give up potential Vigors for a stone or for grassing, and the logistical problems with always filling his availible Vigor spots with a sufficiently powerful unit (or any unit at all), and now tack on the fact that he's only around for 7 chapters + Endgame... it's really hard to see how he's the best unit in the goddamn game.

Haar is not Top because he's an offensive powerhouse, he's on top because he's a flier when you don't always have one (fliers are epic win for some of the GM's clear conditions), he's nigh-invincible and can be thrown into a cloud of guys and not die, he can be Braved/Killered to overcome his AS, etc. I think it's silly to say that Raisin is better than he is when Haar's already 5 chapters in the lead and a heron can't even reproduce some of the things that Haar does.

[Zkirsche]

I can't really see Haar > Ike, though. Ike doubles and isn't afraid of thunder sages (Or as afraid of them like Haar is). Plus, Ike has better 1-2 range options and a better affinity. Flying is useful and all, but i can't see it beating all this.

[_____]

Plus, Ike has better 1-2 range options

What? No, seriously, what?

Wind Swords somehow beat Short/Hand Axes and Javelins/Short Spears?

[Jaybee]

Plus, Ike has better 1-2 range options

What? No, seriously, what?

Wind Swords somehow beat Short/Hand Axes and Javelins/Short Spears?

Ragnell.

[_____]

Ragnell.

Haar has better 1-2 range for 9 chapters.

Ike has better 1-2 range for 5 chapters, 9 if you count 4-E as 5 chapters, though they're really short, so...

[Jaybee]

Ike has better 1-2 range for 7 chapters (4-E = 2 chp), and his weapon is unbreakable, meaning no worries.

Damn, am I a hypocrite. Now I'm starting to support Ike instead of haar.

[Zkirsche]

Ragnell.

Haar has better 1-2 range for 9 chapters.

Ike has better 1-2 range for 5 chapters, 9 if you count 4-E as 5 chapters, though they're really short, so...

Storm sword = short axe in MT, so it's 10 Hit vs 5 uses. That's much closer than Ragnell's 18 MT, 80 Hit and infinite uses. Tomahawk has 15 Mt, 65 Hit and only 15 uses. Comparatively, Ike's winning 1-2 range by a larger margin than Haar's 1-2 range lead on enemies they both or neither double (SM's), otehrwise, Ike doubles and Haar doesn't, which ultimately makes Ike's 1-2 range better than Haar's.

[_____]

Storm sword = short axe in MT, so it's 10 Hit vs 5 uses.

The 2-P boss and Titania come with Short Axes.

Tanith comes with the first Storm Sword, barring the 3-6 one, in 3-11, when Ike already has Ragnell. Ergo, Short Axe vs. Storm Sword is pointless.

That's much closer than Ragnell's 18 MT, 80 Hit and infinite uses. Tomahawk has 15 Mt, 65 Hit and only 15 uses.

For, like, 5 chapters, compared to Haar's win in 9.

Comparatively, Ike's winning 1-2 range by a larger margin than Haar's 1-2 range lead on enemies they both or neither double (SM's), otehrwise, Ike doubles and Haar doesn't, which ultimately makes Ike's 1-2 range better than Haar's.

Yes, ignore how the Short Axe has 6 MT on the Wind Edge that Ike will be using until 3-11. That obviously makes no different whatsoever, especially compared to the 3 MT Ragnell has over the Tomahawk.

Also, if you're that worried about uses and hit, a forged Hand Axe only has 1 less MT than the Tomahawk.

[Colonel M]

Haar can also forge ranged weapons, something Ike cannot do until after promotion (but there's Ragnell I guess).

[Interceptor]

I'm sorry to keep being an asshole by pointing out that people are making silly arguments, but this 1-2 range thing is a silly argument. Fighting at 1-2 is not something that's really efficient to do on a large scale until we get to the point where people are getting mastery skills and/or we can forge good mt on them. Fortunately for Ike, by the time that rolls around he's using Ragnell, aka he's using excellent 1-2 range in places like Part 4 where the abiltiy to do that is actually pretty important.

Before the, fighting at 1-2 is giving up free damage. You can't really leverage it very often on Enemy Phase unless everyone in range has a 1-2 range option, since the enemies will otherwise just pig-pile on the guys locked to 1-range or 2-range. The other use of 1-2 is to avoid counters from 1-range enemies, and I'm sorry if I fail to see where this would be substantially useful for either Haar or Ike.

The real reason that Haar is a goddamn awesome unit is FLYING. Who can do what Haar can do in the early chapters? The list is rather thin, comrades. Looking at only the shared chapters, Haar is part of the fastest clear in 3-3 (who can get to the outlying supplies as fast as him?), in 3-4 (who can bypass all of the cliffs?), 3-5 (who can get to Lombroso first?), and 3-11 (this is a 3-4 redux, except now you have more than one flier finally). And it's not even like he sucks in the non-critical chapters like 3-7 or 3-8, he's just not single-handedly shaving turns off your total count.

[Narga_Rocks]

Storm sword = short axe in MT, so it's 10 Hit vs 5 uses.

The 2-P boss and Titania come with Short Axes.

Tanith comes with the first Storm Sword, barring the 3-6 one, in 3-11, when Ike already has Ragnell. Ergo, Short Axe vs. Storm Sword is pointless.

That's much closer than Ragnell's 18 MT, 80 Hit and infinite uses. Tomahawk has 15 Mt, 65 Hit and only 15 uses.

For, like, 5 chapters, compared to Haar's win in 9.

Comparatively, Ike's winning 1-2 range by a larger margin than Haar's 1-2 range lead on enemies they both or neither double (SM's), otehrwise, Ike doubles and Haar doesn't, which ultimately makes Ike's 1-2 range better than Haar's.

Yes, ignore how the Short Axe has 6 MT on the Wind Edge that Ike will be using until 3-11. That obviously makes no different whatsoever, especially compared to the 3 MT Ragnell has over the Tomahawk.

Also, if you're that worried about uses and hit, a forged Hand Axe only has 1 less MT than the Tomahawk.

I fail to see how the 3-2 storm sword doesn't count for anything.

Really, though, at what point in 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, and 3-10 is 2 range so amazing? There isn't much two range in 3-2, there's barely any 2 range in 3-3, mostly concentrated around the boss. In 3-4 it's again pretty limited, mostly near the ledge with the left side ballista, in 3-5 most of the 2 range is on the left side, and down the middle has a bit but it is still mostly one range. Ike does more damage by having a one range weapon equipped and killing the paladins and not even attacking the 2 range guys than Haar does taking one swing with a short axe at them all and missing a fair bit, too. Haar could even hit them all and Ike would still do more. In 3-7 I think Haar can finally forge a hand axe, though it might be 3-8. There are a couple of 2 rangers on zihark's island but there are still one range interspersed. In 3-8 there again isn't much 2 range. Mostly it's the mages in the top right that Ike can avoid by taking the other route, and a couple things near the boss he can avoid by continuing down the left side and looping in behind. There is just mages that I think even the wind edge kills, or he can use the storm sword. In 3-10 there is again a large number of 1 range only enemies scattered near Elincia and charging at her that Ike takes down.

Then comes 3-11 where Ike has Ragnell and Haar has at most a 15 mt axe. Also, Ike can use his best weapon for both 1 range and 2 range at once, which is not something Haar can say. Ike doesn't have to choose between damaging everything with his 2 range and killing 1 range enemies, Ike kills them all. Haar can't equip a killer axe nor a brave weapon while he is holding a tomahawk or a hand axe. Haar could actually double most things here so at least he gets two shots at a crit with a forged hand axe with crit, but that seems like a bad use of a 25 use weapon if he is using it a lot against 1 range enemies. Then in 3-E Haar is only doubling if he's promoted and has a speedwing to get 26 speed, but still fails. In 4-1 there are a few times 1 and 2 range are interspersed and Ike again has something way better to use. In 4-4 there are lots of enemies, it's a rout, and lots of 2 range with 1 range. Ike's 2 range options are really important here in finishing quickly.

Anyway, 4 chapters where Haar is limited to a Short Axe or 2-E's Tomahawk if Elincia didn't kill the guy. Ike can have a storm sword for 3 of these. Either way, since there aren't times where Haar can sit on enemy phase and more than half the enemies attacking him have 2 range, Ike still does better simply holding onto Ettard and cleaning up the 1 range enemies. And there aren't even many occasions that call for 2 range anyway. Plus we can frequently focus on nuking the 2 range enemies on player phase so that only 1 range is left. At least in the early stages of part 3.

3 chapters where Haar can have a 14 mt 95 hit hand axe, if we want. (I'm assuming 3-7). This matters mostly in 3-7 itself, since 2 range faces the same problems as always in 3-8 and 3-10, but 3-7 there are more times in which having 1-2 range is really helpful. And he's only losing mt by 2 to a forged steel axe, so it's mostly fine to face 1 range with that thing, and it can even have crit if we want a chance to OHKO. Haar's 2 range win before 3-11 can mostly be condensed to 3-7 with a little bit of win on maybe 3 or 4 turns in the other 6 chapters combined.

Of course, given what Int said, I didn't really need to go into that kind of detail since I basically went into specifics on what Int was saying about 1-2 not being efficient on a large scale in those 7 chapters.

And as I said a page ago, Haar is awesome because of flight when there is none, no gauge when the hawks show up, awesome durability and being able to be flown wherever and expected to tank the enemy phase and stuff like that. Ike basically has similar defence, although he needs a bit to build his but then Ragnell shows up and he wins it forever after. Or at least until Haar finally hits 38 def at level 20/17. Ike has better offence.

A comparison between Haar and Ike comes down to flying utility vs. doubling. Or flying vs. offence, in other words. That's kinda subjective, but comparing anything else is likely not going to go far. Ike wins offence, but will never fly. If Haar steals Gatrie's crown, or has Heather nab the 3-6 crown from someone in 3-7 and Haar takes the speedwing, then for some of their part 3 existence Haar and Ike tie offence. Ike still blows it away most of the time. A killer axe means a chance of killing, but still less than Ike. A brave lance doesn't even kill many of their opponents, unless Haar grabs a +mt support, maybe then. Ike still has offence wins overall.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[_____]

I would like to point out that I only started the 1-2 range thing because of this:

I can't really see Haar > Ike, though. Ike doubles and isn't afraid of thunder sages (Or as afraid of them like Haar is). Plus, Ike has better 1-2 range options and a better affinity. Flying is useful and all, but i can't see it beating all this."

Though I won't pretend that I'm not at fault as well.

I fail to see how the 3-2 storm sword doesn't count for anything.

Checked the Item Locations and Hidden Treasure pages of the site and didn't find anything. ._.;

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Ena into low, Astrid > Meg and Nailah to bottom of High?

Also, I fail to see how I'm at fault for saying Ike has better 1-2 range options. <_<

Edited August 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Narga_Rocks]

I would like to point out that I only started the 1-2 range thing because of this:

I can't really see Haar > Ike, though. Ike doubles and isn't afraid of thunder sages (Or as afraid of them like Haar is). Plus, Ike has better 1-2 range options and a better affinity. Flying is useful and all, but i can't see it beating all this."

Though I won't pretend that I'm not at fault as well.

Yeah, that's actually a good reason, can't fault you for that. Ike does have better options for 4 chapters + endgame, but Haar has better ones beforehand. Hand Axe beats Wind edge in mt and hit. Short Axe ties storm sword in mt but wins hit. (And 2 are giftwrapped, whereas we need to steal the 3-2 one and if we want more than 20 uses must disarm/steal the others.) Then forges for two or three chapters.

I fail to see how the 3-2 storm sword doesn't count for anything.

Checked the Item Locations and Hidden Treasure pages of the site and didn't find anything. ._.;

Yeah, they don't always put up the ones that must be stolen. It's in the HM enemy stats topic, though. Basically, for non-bosses if they have 2 weapons it is simple enough to steal one of them and to choose which one we want by tricking them into equipping the other one. I'm not counting any of the other storm swords that enemies have if it's their only equip because disarm/steal isn't reliable. I still say if you try enough you'll get something good along the way (1 good item per 2 or 3 chapters on average I'm thinking), but that doesn't mean it'll be a storm sword that we get.

Also, I fail to see how I'm at fault for saying Ike has better 1-2 range options. <_<

You aren't the sole person at fault for it. In fact, I think 1-2 range is more important in the chapter Ike wins it than in the chapters Haar wins it, so your point is good and should be considered. It's just that Ninji isn't the sole person at fault either.

Although, I'm not sure if bringing up a part of gameplay and comparing two units at it is something that either person should be called "at fault" for anyway.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I say Astrid should bottom out low for being fixable in some ways for her part, and forced regardless (well...she isn't forced, but she also isn't fighting anyone for a unit slot anyways).

Ena? Well Red Pool alone can help bravers immensely along with it. I could see Ena going higher. However, don't see the point of Daemon cards, considering...Cards suck.

As for Nailah...Ask someone else ;;>> *too biased*

Hmmm...You can get cards in part 1, right?...

Edited August 14, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Interceptor]

I say Astrid should bottom out low for being fixable in some ways for her part, and forced regardless (well...she isn't forced, but she also isn't fighting anyone for a unit slot anyways).

No way. Sanaki is the worst unit in Low, and she's obliterating Astrid.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ena? Well Red Pool alone can help bravers immensely along with it. I could see Ena going higher. However, don't see the point of Daemon cards, considering...Cards suck.

Cards don't actually suck. They are rather accurate, 42 mt is nothing to sneeze at, they do 15 to 27 damage on enemies in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2, except bishops. Sages are the 15. Also, 22 damage to Red Dragons, though only like 4 to 6 on whites. Also, don't forget it's no counters. This means that you could intro with Ena, she doesn't need to be healed, then another character that was not ORKOing the general or red dragon suddenly is able to kill it. Then there are the Generals on cover tiles, so even units that could ORKO might not anymore and now they can. Cards aren't particularly good for a unit you are trying to train, since even with enough speed to double you can't double with a card. Also most units don't have the magic to make it useful. But use the Daemon cards with Ena and have her start off an enemy and they suddenly become useful and quite good, actually.

Also, do cards use gauge? I think they likely don't, but since dragon gauge depletes so slowly I don't think it matters even if Ena uses a stone rather than a gem to transform.

I say Astrid should bottom out low for being fixable in some ways for her part, and forced regardless (well...she isn't forced, but she also isn't fighting anyone for a unit slot anyways).

No way. Sanaki is the worst unit in Low, and she's obliterating Astrid.

Hence the tier gap. (That was @Pretty Boi Wolf)

Edited August 14, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Dammit! Part 1 you get no cards...So much for helping Fiona. With a spectre card, it could help her do damage to things she normally would have a hard time damaging, like armors (and would actually do more damage against fighters). Still would be a pain, but at least she'd have more options...Far more accurate options.

Fuck. Anyone know if you can get cards part 1? Shop list says they're only available part 4...For some bizarre reason. They can't be THAT powerful.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Interceptor]

Hence the tier gap. (That was @Pretty Boi Wolf)

Indeed. I should have finished my thought, there.

Anyway, anyone who wants to know why Sanaki is obliterating Astrid only needs to see how Sanaki is obliterating Meg, in a post that I made here. Pardon the asinine tangents, it was a post in response to smash.

[Narga_Rocks]

Dammit! Part 1 you get no cards...So much for helping Fiona. With a spectre card, it could help her do damage to things she normally would have a hard time damaging, like armors (and would actually do more damage against fighters). Still would be a pain, but at least she'd have more options...Far more accurate options.

Fuck. Anyone know if you can get cards part 1? Shop list says they're only available part 4...For some bizarre reason. They can't be THAT powerful.

There is a reaper card in 1-E, so she can do a little something for 10 turns in the rest of 1-E and part 3 once someone opens that chest.

They can buy Deamon cards in 3-12, so on the laguz in 3-13 that have 10/12 res (cats) or 6/8 res (tigers) or 8/10 res (hawks) it could work. Still, though, 5000 is a lot to spend on a 5 use card, especially since if she's 20/4 she's pulling only 22 mt with it, so tigers take 14/16 damage but cats only take 10/12. I guess every little bit counts, and your units need 34/36 mt to cause that kind of damage to a tiger physically in one hit. Remember though, wicked expensive. That's more than a 40 use steel forge with +3 mt/hit/crit. Maybe even +4 to all. 1000 per shot compared to like 125.

The "free" one, though, could at least do 10/12 damage to a tiger, so at least for a single hit it is somewhat respectable. Since it can only be sold for 2500 and has 10 uses it isn't so bad, but it is still basically 250 per hit.

At least if you save it for 3-6 and 3-13 it makes it lots easier to feed her 10 kills. She's unlikely to miss and does more damage to a tiger than she could ever hope to do with a javelin. (7 mt and needs 28/30 mt to do 10 damage. Not happening). It means less dancing to get her to attack at one range but not face enemy phase.

Although, just to expand on her 1 range options in 3-6. Something I hadn't thought of previously is Sothe and his two range. He can step back, attack something with either an iron knife forge or simply a steel knife (weakening for Fiona) and then she can move in, kill it, move out, and Meg or another untrained unit can shove Sothe back in place. Meg can even trade Sothe's weapon for something else and then shove him. Which helps since she'll only have ~7 magic for 3-6 and thus only 15 mt with a reaper card and do only 7/9 damage with it.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Narga_Rocks