OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Nephenee is Oscar with worse bases, without a horse, a worse affinity, but better caps and lower base for better leveling speed, though Oscar can crown basically whenever. Comparison over.

Says the person that wants Calill < Edward. Hmm... perhaps I want to see or do a comparison with this dumb man on a horse.

[grandjackal]

Says the person that wants Calill < Edward. Hmm... perhaps I want to see or do a comparison with this dumb man on a horse.

What's this supposed to mean? Only argument I've basically heard against Eddie is "lolDB". I'd value Eddie higher than I would Calill. Less availability, working with a team that crushes her (face it, every CRK smites her save Astrid, MAYBE Makalov. At least in part 3, Eddie can actually outperform Zihark). Eddie can be a greater asset to his team as he actually has time supporting people (Dark may or may not be worse than Light, but at least Eddie's got time to use his ;;>>).

I mean, the difference between Oscar and Nephenee is exactly that.

[Interceptor]

I'm happy with Neph's position. She's a good unit, as you presented, but not nearly as good as Mia herself for doubling much, much less. And her Crit is worse and her proc rates are nowhere near as reliable. This makes a tier gap seem reasonable IMO. If not, just compare her to Oscar, who's directly above her (lol, this is gonna be GFAQ's all over again) and work your way from thier.

I am not suggesitng that Nephenee is High tier material, because she is not. If you recall, the reason I wanted Mia in High is because there was a tier's worth of difference between Mia and Nephenee, yet on the tier list they were literally right next to each other. dondon and I fenced back and forth about that point for a while.

I do think, however, that she is probably the queen of Upper Mid, in terms of people that she's basically sharing availibility with.

Nephenee is Oscar with worse bases, without a horse, a worse affinity, but better caps and lower base for better leveling speed, though Oscar can crown basically whenever. Comparison over.

No offense, but your snap judgements have very little credibility.

In reality, Oscar is failing to double all over the place, has no innate crit, her mastery stomps his for proc%, and she even out-STRs him eventually because of BEXP abuse.

[grandjackal]

No offense, but your snap judgements have very little credibility.

In reality, Oscar is failing to double all over the place, has no innate crit, her mastery stomps his for proc%, and she even out-STRs him eventually because of BEXP abuse.

1 speed lead, 3 Str lead. If he's having problems...

He needs 5 levels to start doubling, she needs 7. I can crown him from there, and he'll never have problems all the way up to endgame with doubling. He becomes far more useful way earlier. Also takes her a while to catch up to his base durability, he's always gonna have a luck lead, his earth support is perfect for Titania due to move matching and the fact he's supporting Titania. I couldn't give a shit about how she is tier 3, because Oscar not only gets there sooner, he's being epic for part 3. For lulz, bonds up the ass no less.

You can't say that doesn't just matter. Apparently part 3 is just that important, and Oscar helps quite sooner with it.

[Interceptor]

1 speed lead, 3 Str lead. If he's having problems...

Oscar's SPD lead does not exist. You're looking at their base stats. Oscar will be lucky to have gotten 1 level by the time that 3-2 rolls around (he's level 20/12 and EXPs like one), whereas Nephenee has 2-1, 2-2, and 2-E and she's level 20/1 at base (aka gets a lot of EXP). In reality, Nephenee lands at like level 20/5 or something, and has a real chance of having as much SPD as Titania with a Speedwing.

He needs 5 levels to start doubling, she needs 7. I can crown him from there, and he'll never have problems all the way up to endgame with doubling. He becomes far more useful way earlier. Also takes her a while to catch up to his base durability, he's always gonna have a luck lead, his earth support is perfect for Titania due to move matching and the fact he's supporting Titania. I couldn't give a shit about how she is tier 3, because Oscar not only gets there sooner, he's being epic for part 3. For lulz, bonds up the ass no less.

I don't think that you really appreciate how much faster Nephenee levels as compared to Oscar. Consider that if he's 20/13 and she's 20/5, and they both hit a level 20/7 enemy unit, Oscar gains 2 EXP and Nephene gains six. Or if the hit results in a kill, Oscar gains 11 EXP and Nephenee gains twenty-three. She's going to be gaining basically 1.5-2 levels for every one of his, or more.

As for crowning Oscar, he's so far from doritos for the 3-3 crown that he's not even in the vending machine. When do we crown him, exactly? The bridge chapter? When Nephenee is getting close to promotion herself? Never mind that crowning Oscar ruins his offense forever, since he can't BEXP abuse his STR up now and he can't grow it fast enough to catch up. Sol cannot help him much with its SKL/2 proc rate, and if you were silly enough to support him with Titania he doesn't even get an ATK support to help him out there.

As for Bonds, Nephenee has a perma-bond called "I'm a Halberdier/Sentinel with a disgusting SKL growth rate and a 5/10% crit boost", and it doesn't require that I deploy Upper Mid units or worse to realize it. Oscar can't even get all of the listed crit in a forge, because enemy LCK eats some of it up.

You can't say that doesn't just matter. Apparently part 3 is just that important, and Oscar helps quite sooner with it.

Your analysis does not match reality. Nephenee is out-killing him almost immediately, and his advantages amount mostly to durability and Canto, the former which eventually gets marginalized and the latter which is a mixed bag of tricks because he's a land-mount, not a flier.

[Colonel M]

I almost want to throw Resolve into this argument for two reasons:

1) Decent avoid AFTER it activates

2) Wrath

Problem is it is a bit rough. If we're using 20/5 Nephenee as an example, she has 96 Avoid with Resolve activated (and Authority Stars calculated). Average Hit rates are pretty high (3-2 has a lot of units with 110-130 hit, bar the SMs). Though... she does have Javelins that can be spiked with Crit to help her out and she can be healed and rinse-repeat for the Enemy Phase. I guess hear me out.

Player Phase: Nephenee moves in toward two units that can hit her.

Enemy Phase: Nephenee gets hit twice, thrown into Resolve + Wrath range

Player Phase: Nephenee tosses a Javelin for a critkill (Optional: Heal)

Enemy Phase: If healed, rinse and repeat. If not, avoid contact as much as possible.

...Probably won't fly though. Adept is probably a better argument for her.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

I don't see Nephenee w/Resolve flying. She's not the best candidate for it in general, and while crit-javving is a useful trick, it's not the best way to be using her offense. Adept is a much better tack, since she's second-best of your early units, and only has to contend with Ranulf for the #2 slot until the hawks show up.

[Colonel M]

Another reason with the Resolve thing is doubling Swordmasters and being able to ORKO them easier than most units. Then again, she hits both Resolve and Wrath if two hits connect anyway, so Resolve is somewhat pointless since all it does is decrease her chance of death.

[NinjaMonkey]

Just a note, a 20/3 Mia is basically 1RKOing those same halbs and warriors in 4-1 with a silver blade, then in 4-4 she can nab the vague katti and ORKO stuff (including halbs and warriors), then partway through grab the tempest blade and ORKO stuff. And 3HKO the generals with a silver forge which results in near 90% proc rates if she has adept. Yeah, she's nuts.

How can Mia nab the Vague Katti in 4-4? Stefan was only recruited in 4-3, so how are we getting it to the convoy before 4-4 starts?

[Kaito]

Sothe could go find something and send the Vague katti to the convoy.

[Jaybee]

How can Mia nab the Vague Katti in 4-4? Stefan was only recruited in 4-3, so how are we getting it to the convoy before 4-4 starts?

Have Stefan trade it to Sothe, then have Sothe pick up something on the floor. You will be asked to give an item back to the convoy. Select the VK, then Mia can pick it up in 4-4.

Also, Volke vs Lucia. Lucia's 2-2 isn't really better than Volke's 4-5 and Endgame, especially since he can possibly OHKO those dragon bastards.

[Interceptor]

Yeah, but Lucia also has an Endgame, and she's not exactly dead weight there.

She's underlevelled when you get her back, but she narrows the gap like a bat out of hell. Consider what happens if she's base level in 4-2 and takes a kill, say some level 6 Halberdier. They are considered tier 3 units, aka level 46 in this case, and Lucia earns 38 CEXP. That's not a typo, she literally will level-up in three kills. Give her Paragon and she'll promote without a crown before the chapter is even over. It helps that she's forced on the most EXP-rich path, with both of her Bond partners.

Lucia will always lose to Volke in martial stats (never catch his STR, or concrete durability, or crit), but she's not getting smoked, either, particularly since Lucia going to Endgame means a high chance of Elincia as a support partner.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

I would say Volke don't need no levels to be useful endgame, but...I didn't even think of Bonds and the time to build an actual support, especially with a heaven affinity (HeavenxEarth would be great for endgame). She might prefer to then trade Parity for Nihil then, but in exchange a loner unit (like..Volke?) get it.

[Narga_Rocks]

I typed this about 10 hours ago, then my internet crashed and now it works so I'm posting this without reading much since Red Fox's post.

By the way Narga, where do you actually stand on this? Do you want the gap to close or something? Do you want Zihark down or Edward up?

Sorry, I should have said something earlier.

I think Edward has a really bad part 1, but if we play purely for efficiency he gets dropped after 1-6. He gets a fair amount of use during this time. Important in 1-P, 1-1, less so in 1-2, still helpful to end kills in that and 1-3. Can be an important tank in 1-4 since he simply won't die in one hit *(~86.6% chance at level 7) and in 1-5 there are enough enemies near the starting position that everyone gets to do something for the first 2 or 3 turns and he can have decent avo with a wind edge shooting down from the ledge, even if he won't double all that much. Then in 1-6-2 there are lots of enemies near the starting position and depending on how the bridge is played will likely need to attack some things with everyone else. In 1-6-1 it's a little harder to give him much credit for anything but giving Nolan a free +1 def, but Aran can do that too. In part 3 he won't do much at level ~10 tier 1 so he's just blocking ledges.

*needs 3 hp or 2 hp and >= 1 def or 1 hp and >= 2 def or 0 hp and 3 def.

.85^3 ____[3 hp]

.85^2 * .15 * 3 * (1 - .65^3) ____[2 hp and >= 1 def]

.85 * .15^2 * 3 * (.35^2 * .65 * 3 + .35^3) ____[1 hp and >= 2 def]

.15^3 * .35^3 ____[0 hp and 3 def]

P[3 hp] + P[2hp and 1,2,or 3 def] + P[1hp and 2 or 3 def] + P[0hp and 3 def]

.614125 + .235837546 + .016165406 + .000144703125

.866272655

So he's got a >86.6% chance of having sufficient hp and def to survive a hit from a 26 mt tiger while at level 7. That's actually a rather small chance of not being able to take it. Also with a C anyone support active he's at 93.925% at level 7 with just his hp growth alone, not even bothering with his chance of getting defence.

Lucia's got 2-2 and 4-2 and 4-5 where she's either forced or practically free for probably being top 12 anyway. If we don't try to salvage either one then I don't see Lucia > Edward. If we do try to salvage them, Edward and she both go through a period of not so great, and (of the non-forced units) you have 6 slots in 1-7, 4 in 1-8, and 9 in 1-E. I don't see a problem with Ed taking one in 1-7 or 1-E, and if he supported Nolan and actually has some levels I'm not seeing an issue with 1-8. In 1-E, there are still 7 slots after considering the forced units and BK and Nailah. I'm not seeing a huge problem with deploying Edward in any chapter except maybe 1-8. While he isn't exactly a huge positive here, he isn't a detriment and he can generally attack things without putting himself at too great a risk.

I'd be okay with Edward > Lucia, and since Edward has 3-12 until 4-P/1/2 of being good enough before the direct comparison with Volke and Stefan and it's not like he's impossible to train and he'll have a support and be comparable statistically to Volke and Stefan, I don't see an issue with him over them, either. And Stefan doesn't get much in 4-3, like ~4 enemies if we are trying to get him kills. Also, I'm not sure if Lucia is too low, and I think Int once said Lucia is underrated, but if she needs to go to mid I'm still not seeing why she's better than Edward.

As for Zihark, I think Janaff could go above him, at the very least. Janaff could take bexp, or an energy drop, or adept and every option gets him either a pretty good proc rate or a guaranteed 100% ORKO. His gauge is annoying, but it isn't like a cat's. It means I can't expose him like I can some other units, but occasionally it could be useful with his move if there aren't too many enemies way ahead of everyone else. No 2 range hurts once part 4 rolls around, except in 4-3 he's still good for sniping and in 4-5 the enemies only have 1 range. Well, dragons exist, but they are easy to deal with here. Zihark has no chapters in which he is the best unit in part 1, and some where he is outclassed rather severely. Janaff is never outclassed this much by Haar/Ike/Mia, although with a drop he compares rather decently until Mia starts ORKOing everything, at which point his no 2 range starts hurting in part 4 and his gauge does too. Still, with a drop his enemy exposure is probably similar to Gatrie's over time thanks to gauge vs. super durability so he's never really doing worse in the comparison than Zihark is.

Then in part 3 Zihark has issues, and even if you can get him to survive a 29mt cat + 39mt tiger combo, I'm not seeing that save him since he still blicks things and there are still safer or better units. Then in part 4 Janaff should have 46 mt with a C or B Ulki and can ORKO things in 4-P and 4-1 and 4-2. An FF 00 with Ulki means just 5 adjacents and a shove can get them a support level with a single chapter bonus, so that's quite easy to do over 3-7 and 3-8, so a C for 3-10. In 3-10 they just need to spend half the turns together and they both have canto and gauge and 9 move, so it should be doable. If we decide to ever pull a revert + grass to boost them to 30 for a small rampage then while reverted they can stay together. Also when they get in position Ulki can shove Janaff and then move out and Janaff can land next to him. I'm thinking it is actually doable to get them an A for 3-E, but even if we don't an A for 4-3/4/5 between each other should be simple. And while you might say Ulki doesn't need thunder, well it does mean a quicker way to +1 mt and +2 mt than with anyone else. Further, Ulki can now take wrath and have almost no chance of dying even in wrath range with the extra avo and def. That frees up adept for others and means we don't have to spend bexp to get him tear.

By now if Janaff has proc'd strength he's sitting at 49 mt in 4-3/4/5 and still pulls ORKOs on everything not a general or a dragonmaster except 2 warriors in 4-4 (and the warrior reinforcements) and all those >30 spd swordmasters (some are only 30 speed) and ravens and dragons. Nukes Izuka, though. Considering Tear and the option for Adept as well and 3HKOing generals in 4-E-1, Janaff can have a 81% proc rate with adept or a 56.44% proc rate without Adept. He needs SS for 4-E-2 and likely won't have it so isn't ORKOing here, but likely neither is Zihark since you need 52 mt to ORKO halbs and 53 to ORKO warriors. Also isn't doubling swordmasters.

In 4-E-3, well Zihark wins this. Except Tear still OHKOs reds, so he doesn't win by that much. In 4-E-4, assuming Janaff now has SS he ORKOs everything except fire spirits on cover(1) tiles or any spirits on cover(2) tiles. If he somehow has 18 str now instead of 17 str, he has 56 mt and ORKOs fire spirits on cover (1) and ORKOs wind and thunder spirits on cover (2). On player phase he's beating Zihark on every turn except the first turn, and assuming you don't make a wall to force spirits to attack 1-2 range units, or that you field at least one other 1 range unit, Janaff isn't hurting on enemy phase either. Well, actually even if you make a wall he just hides inside, so it only limits his player phase positioning on turn 1 and 2.

In 4-E-5, Janaff needs Nasir since he won't have 40 speed, but oh well. 54 mt with an A Ulki and SS strike and one str proc means 48 damage to an aura. Level 32 Janaff has 18 skill and 26 luck.

36x2 + 26 + 15 + 20 + 90 = 223 and 88 listed on auras. 20/12 Zihark has 80 + 22 + 15 + 95 = 212 hit and only 77 listed. Unless Zihark's bio is 3 or 4 steps higher than Janaff's at the time of attacking then Janaff is much more accurate. 97.24% vs. 89.65%. 94.556% chance of hitting twice vs. 80.37% chance of hitting twice. Since Janaff has canto using Nasir isn't unreasonable since that spot gets opened up for someone else anyway.

Considering that aside from gauge Janaff is pretty consistent in his comparison with other team members and Zihark is on a roller coaster ride in his comparisons and Zihark's heights are never really higher than Janaff's consistent height, I'd have to say Janaff > Zihark.

I don't think I want to push Zihark down to upper mid right now. I'm not sure where he deserves, to be honest. He could belong in high tier, but his part 3 and early part 4 aren't nice.

"I get 2HKOd by like everything and don't even get that much experience because it's hard mode."

Yeah, it's bad, but considering only two enemies will ever be lower leveled than he is and some will be 3 or so levels above, he's needing basically 15 kills to get to level 7 or less. For example, if he's only level 6 against those level 10 units in 1-3, he should be getting 9 exp a hit and 26 per kill, right? I think that's what the formula is and means. 5 + deltalevel and hitexp + 15 + deltalevel/2, or something. Maybe it was 5 + deltalevel/2 and hitexp + 15 + deltalevel. Anyway, those are only 12 kills needed, or 3 kills and 3 hits each for 9 and 9. So it'll be somewhere between 12 kills and 15 kills, or between 9 and 9 and 12 and 12. With 52 enemies and not all that many units to use, I'm not seeing the issue with 15 and 15 to get level 8, rather than 11 and 11 to get level 7. Or he'd at least be rather close to level 8 in 1-4 and likely only take a small amount of bexp to get above 90 and level on the next hit. Getting 2HKOd doesn't stop Micaiah from getting a bunch of levels. I can generally get her up rather quickly. She's a bit more accurate and does a little more damage in one hit, but in all I don't think it's impossible.

Isn't that what we're doing? Robo Ky tried to use the Draco as a way to move Edward up. I'm saying it doesn't do enough to get him out of Lower Mid. Your posts have kind of given him a bit more than I originally showed, but it still isn't very much considering a lot of enemies still 2HKO him.

It's not nearly enough to make him easy enough to raise that we can put him up to Upper mid like Robo Ky wants, or even particularly high in mid, but it's not so hard to raise him that his part 3 and 4 get washed away. And a draco makes it easier to do. And it's not like the draco doesn't also help later in part 1 or the rest of the game, either. At that point his use is comparing to Jill/Zihark's usually better use, but overall he's likely on their level for draco usage thanks to getting something ealier.

Okay, since you seemed to get the message "I don't care about turn counts" from what I said, I'll say you're wrong. Really, you kind of blew that out of proportion, especially when I had this:

I have to guess since I can't seem to find my guide on this game, but 15 turns should be sufficient for half BEXP, and then our tier 1 units get more CEXP and building B ZiharkxJill shouldn't be too difficult.

Which would suggest that I'm going for the safer-yet-still-efficient method since part 1 chapters are generally pretty tough and turn count BEXP generally isn't abundant. This does not mean "Turn counts don't matter," it means "Sacrifice a few now to save some later." BEXP turn counts can be a nice guideline, but it isn't definite. So cut the "Turn counts no longer matter" BS.

I don't think you don't care, I just don't see how spending extra turns in 1-7 or 1-E really help us. It's not as if we need Zihark in part 4, nor is he helping kill Ike in 3-13, and since he'd probably have an A Jill by 3-12 anyway I'm not seeing the extra turns doing anything here. I can't imagine 4 or 5 extra turns getting shaved off of 3-6, considering we'd have to spend at least that much in 1-7 and 1-E. I don't think you don't care at all. After all, you've made changes based on arguments about clearing the GM part 3 faster with certain combinations and how it makes a unit better than those that can't. Clearly you care about efficiency. I'm just saying I'm not seeing any savings in part 1 by doing this. Especially since we can cut so many turns out of 1-6 and 1-7 already if we want. If we open the bottom right door by turn 3 in 1-7, we can clear the map on turn 9 and all the ally units will have escaped by turn 8 ally phase. Turn 9 vs. however many it takes to get Zihark x Jill to B. Likely turn 13, minimum. That's 4 turns we need to make up in part 3 somehow. I don't think part 1 is so hard, though. Especially 1-7.

So my other stuff is still a little valid since we could use those extra 3 or 4 turns in 1-2 and 1-3 killing reinforcements and making Sothe weaken instead of kill instead of in 1-7 and 1-E getting Zihark support levels. I guess I went a bit overboard in my wording, though, and made unfair exaggerations, so for that I apologize.

I still think we can kill a few extra reinforcements in 1-2 and 1-3 and even 1-1 (going up to 10 turns) and it won't be any worse than what happens with Zihark. Maybe we can't take out all the reinforcements, but considering some of Edward's reductions with the shield were reinforcements, it's a double point.

Except we don't judge characters when not using them. If we're going to rank Zihark, we use him. Experience has no value in itself other than self-improvement. The fact that Zihark gets less is a result of a higher level, but his performance beats a lot of others.

He's getting the same experience after a few kills as he gets from like one in 3-6. I don't know how many, but another unit could start 3-6 at 18/1 rather than 17/1 with the extra kills, and Zihark's improvement with those same kills is equivalent to needing one less laguz kill in 3-6 for the same exp level. I'm thinking not using Zihark as much in part 1 and still using him throughout the rest of the game gets a better team than using him. I suppose it's not a huge improvement, though. Still, I give him credit for part 1 since when I let him get those kills it usually means I went faster in part 1, not slower. Going slower in part 1 serves to cancel part of that credit.

You're right about Micaiah's deployment spot, but there's a spot 1 space above her that her supporter can take if it isn't Volug. Jill and Zihark can take the two spots to the south and we're ready to roll.

Somehow I missed the spot above her. Oops. Another mistake on my part. Anyway, I think I pretty much conceded the point about starting them adjacent, and if I didn't before then I do now. If Volug was anywhere else, though... But he's not.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Building Zihark's support is inefficient?

When it adds on a few turns, yes. I don't see it shaving off more turns than it cost to make.

Consider the possibility of 1-2 turns being ended with a Rescue as well due to not enemies around. This is better in 1-E where we have Rafiel (Drop + canto + Vigor).

That helps in 1-7, I guess. That's why I now say like 13 or something. I still think it might be difficult though. 6 for a rescue, 4 for an adjacent. Need 33. Assuming turn 10, 11, 12, and 13 are started with her carrying him, that's 24 points. Still need 3 adjacents, but with 1 of those on turn 1 it's only 2 in 8 turns needed. 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. Then Jill is useless on turn 9 because her player phase is spent picking up Zihark, and both are useless on enemy phase on 9, 10, 11, and 12. Also player phase 10, 11, 12, and 13. On turn 13, they both do nothing on player phase and Micaiah seizes so there is no enemy phase. Or drop turn 13 and finish on 12 and 3x6=18 so 15 left. Just 4 turns adjacent needed and 1 of which is turn 1 so 3 out of 8 of the rest of the turns. It's still 3 turns that need to be shaved from 3-6.

There are still 4 guys that appear in the east near the seize square when turn 11 ends, so turn 12 they are killed without Zihark and Jill. Those 7 guys that appeared in the south should be approaching by turn 11 or 12, as well. They need to be dealt with, although they might not actually reach. Anyway, I'm sure it's fine, since we have the LEA and using revert wisely allows them to help and it'll likely work out.

As for 1-E, vigor helps a bit, but they still lose some use. Jill still doesn't have saviour, so when she picks up Zihark she loses her player phase and enemy phase, and Zihark loses enemy phase. Then the following turn if you only wanted to get rescue points once Jill can drop Zihark and go one away, and Rafiel can vigor and they don't lose player phase. Except if they weren't building support points Jill has an extra player phase and enemy phase, Zihark has an extra enemy phase, and Rafiel spent two of his sides on units that would have had 2 player phases each rather than 1 each if they had attacked something and arranged for a vigor.

Really, by periodically making two slots do little I don't see any negative in deploying Edward once in a while. I know you haven't said it's a negative to deploy him, but I'm assuming part of the cost of raising him in part 1 is not being able to deploy others.

But again, you can't really count that against Zihark because both him and Edward spend equal amounts of time on each section of Biorythm. Zihark spends 32% of a full biorythm scale on Best and another 32% on worst. It's the same for Edward. 8 turns out of 25. If Edward could claim "I don't care about biorythm," you'd have a case, but that isn't the situation.

I don't know. I understand they have the same amounts of things. But Zihark is good on best since you can send him somewhere and for like 8 turns he's on best. But Edward can more frequently go out there for 3 turns and be on best. And at times Zihark must stay away for 8 turns if he doesn't want to get hit lots but Edward is never out of commission for that long in consecutive turns. I know one might be balanced by the other, but I don't think so.

Even with Paragon those levels are high. I might get all my units to level --/7-10, max, and Volug to ~18-20, maybe Sothe and Zihark a bit higher for higher base levels. 20/12 for Edward is much too high without multiple chapters of Paragon.

How many units do you use?

I just focus on Volug, Sothe, Jill and Nolan. I ended part 3 with Jill at level 12, Nolan at level 15, I think. Nolan had paragon in 3-12 and 3-13 since I didn't feel a need for Volug or Sothe to use paragon and wasn't raising much else. Well, I raised Laura and Micaiah and they were lower leveled afterwards than Jill and Nolan, but that's just because half the time they are healing and don't get the opportunity to get kills. Also I didn't bother sending Adept to the GMs so gave it to Laura in 3-13. Sure, she doesn't have very high speed, but of the units I was raising there wasn't much point giving it to anyone on the front lines so they can kill themselves more easily. Anyway, I mention that because giving Paragon to someone with 2 range that will not be tanking seems inefficient if I didn't send Adept over to the GMs. They can have Adept (or in Leo's case wrath) and be more useful and paragon can go on a tanker.

Anyway, I think Volug reached level 20, not sure, but he hit SS during 3-13. Sothe actually bent probability and got far more def than he should have, and got to level 9 or something after 3-6 alone. Beastkiller is awesome (if it hits) and we have lots of nubs to trade his weapon back to an iron dagger or something. I think I may have even had BK do it once or twice.

The trouble with the DB's levels in part 4 is only if you start raising lots of them. I even had Leo and Aran get a few levels despite hovering around level 10 tier 1. Leo attacked a couple of untransformed things and also some transformed things to help out. Aran actually threw a javelin at a fair number of cats that Volug was attacking, and actually hit a few times to kill them, too. Even Zihark got in on the action during stages of overflow when one or two laguz came around the side on the east. I think my level ~8 tier 1 Edward may have participated, but maybe not. (I'm saying it's not like I only used 6 units in 3-6 which would likely make it harder and take longer)

Of my tier 1 units, Leo was the best. Gave him a Meg support (I think C, B in 3-12) and he went to town. Sure, he only had like 10 str and 26+1 mt, but that was more than a lot of units and doubling the untransformed laguz with a level ~9/-/- Leo was funny. Jerk pulled a crit once or twice, though. Jill wanted those kills. Bad Leo.

I think level 12 is reasonable. Well, Jill is significantly better in part 3 than Zihark or Edward would be, so I suppose maybe level 10 or 11 without 2 chapters of paragon. Don't forget bexping a few points to get them closer to a level in 3-12 and 3-13. Otherwise it's being held until part 4 anyway.

Also, do you rout the Laguz in 3-13? I only had GMs left alive when it ended (except maybe in the northwest thing, but I think I had Sothe jump down so I think he might have killed the cat and tiger). If the map was a few turns longer without more laguz, could have killed Ike, too. Well, probably not, since a level 20 Mia and a level 17/2 Gatrie and a level 20 Shinon would have had something to say about it. Ike was sleeping, though, without Ragnell equipped, so it might have worked. Actually, I think Volug may have reached level 21 or 22, since I let him kill so much in 3-13.

I had to give Jill some bexp to get to level 20 before crowning in the 4-3 base, but I think Nolan promoted naturally. I may have even not crowned Jill and let her go naturally, don't remember. Even Laura promoted during 4-3. Micaiah hit level 17 or 18 after 4-3, and ate bexp in the pre 4-E base before her promotion.

[grandjackal]

Ok, perhaps I have been overblowing things, but I see no reason for Eddie to at least bottom out mid. If Lucia goes up with him, fine.

I do just wanna say this though. I think there is a comprimise here, as I see another reason to keep Zihark in high. See, he doesn't gain much from killing things part 1. Yes? Well one solution is to take off Adept (HOLD ON, I'll explain!), give him a bronze. Bam, we got another Jeigen. He reduces people to low health just like Sothe would. Low enough (and at that time no less), we could have the tier 1s kill what he leaves alive, he moves forward, rinse and repeat. Zihark loses negligeable exp, but in exchange we powered up several other units, and he's just as usable part 3. On top of this, we're generally not losing speed. Someone kills what Zihark messes up, Zihark still moves forward, my guys kill, Zihark moves forward still. Either way, Zihark's still moving forwards along with Sothe and Volug, but I am powering up people who are leveling faster at the cost of like the 1 exp they'd get from the kill anyways. This lets us also move Adept to the GMs, but removing Adept from him for part 3 is a safer option for him anyways.

So..Zihark can stay in high, and it's because he can easier help the DB get powered up while still being just as usable if used "normally"

Think it the Zealot to Sothe's Marcus.

It's not like the GM, who have absolutely no reason not to be ORKOing as soon as possible, since just about everyone else is 2RKOing anyways. Zihark can actually leave people to slim HP levels, so others getting his scraps is a loss of nothing and only a gain.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

Current Upper mid:

Elincia

Tibarn

Ranulf

Jill

Oscar

Nephenee

Micaiah

Laura

Naesala

Mordecai

Aran

Boyd

What can we even say to compare Micaiah and Laura vs. Naesala? It's annoying looking at healers since it's so hard to come up with an argument. Any offensive leads can be counteracted by the existence of staves, except what makes everyone above the healers better and everyone below not better?

Anyway, Laura is your only devoted healer in part 1 from 1-2 all the way to 1-E (minus 1-9). That's a lot of chapters where she's doing something nobody else can do every turn (Micaiah can go every other turn by alternating between sacrifice and vulnerary, but why would you want to?) and allows units with less durability to level faster since they aren't spending precious player phases scarfing vulneraries when they could be killing units we are feeding them.

Micaiah is clutch in OHKOing one of the hardest enemy types to kill faced in part 1 and she does it with near 100% hit rates, often actual 100% rates. Then in 3-6 when using anything other than the Saviour Sothe method there are too many fronts for Laura to heal on her own. Most action is done on player phase since killing multiple enemies on enemy phase is tantamount to suicide for most units. All the extra player units that can attack the laguz weakened the previous enemy phase is a good thing, since injured laguz tend to cause problems. With Laura + Micaiah it's generally enough to kill all the weakened laguz and get everyone back to enough hp to take a hit.

So they are both rather helpful in their own ways in part 1 and 3, and in part 4 there are 3 routes and 5 healers (Micaiah, Laura, Rhys, Mist, and Elincia). We eventually get Bastian in 4-5 and Soren or Ilyana could possibly have staves, but likely don't have C staves yet. To maintain 2 healers in each route (except in 4-2) Laura is again useful, and with access to 5 physics they can each use one so Laura doesn't worry about enemies. (Elincia's in 2-E, aimee's bargains in 3-6 and 3-13, enemy bishops in 3-10 and 3-11.) Some might be nearly used up, but considering the desert in 4-3 it shouldn't be too bad if Laura (or another healer) breaks a nearly used up physic in 4-P and in 4-3 just uses mend or something.

So Laura has use all the way up to before 4-E, and if she somehow has a decent level she can even go into 4-E and use fortify so Micaiah can do something else (like Nosferatu tanking the red dragons on enemy phase). Also, sniping with purge and blessing a second light tome so we can have a blessed Nosferatu and Purge, or something. Even without any 4-E use, she's still helpful in the rest of the game.

I'm sure everyone knew all that, though. Just putting it out there for reference.

Naesala is likely to be the best unit in 4-P and 4-3, unless Haar has a speedwing and is overleveled in 4-3 enough to double everything. And had a speedwing in tier 2 and now has 26 speed for 4-P for doubling most things. Even then I'm not sure who pulls ahead.

Anyway, then in 4-E Naesala isn't so great against generals unless he already has SS but still has a rather good Tear rate and does well with adept. A level 31 Naesala has 23x2 speed for 46 speed. Well, 22.8, but lets just say 23. Two shots at adept, two shots at tear, either one pulls off the KO.

~91.5% KO rate with adept. That's nuts. Scratch what I said about isn't so great. He might even pull above most Hammer users because of their miss chances.

And for those cover tile generals that some other units are no longer 3HKOing and so might need multiple activations or something, Tear 1HKOs. Even if Naesala is >4HKOing at this point, a single tear still does the job.

2 adepts: .2116

1 adept: .4968

0 adepts: .2916

So with 2 adepts that's 4 shots at tear, with 1 it's 3, and with none it's 2.

.91496944 with 4 shots

.842536 with 3 shots

.7084 with 2 shots

.2116 * .91496944 + .4968 * .842536 + .7084 * .2916

~81.875% chance of ORKOing a general on a cover tile with adept.

As a reference, this is better than a lot of units' chances at ORKOing a general that isn't on a cover tile. (With them having adept as well)

So while he may not be better than Tibarn with ORKOing 50hp/31def generals like he does, he actually does better than Tibarn on the cover tile generals, since Naesala is pulling 46%s on tear and adept while Tibarn will only likely have 40%s. Well, except that 56mt vs. 41/42def and 51/52hp means that 2 adepts actually does KO, so Tibarn might have a higher rate since two adepts KOs.

Lets check:

2 adepts: .16

1 adept: .48

0 adepts: .36

So with 2 adepts it dies, with 1 it's 3 shots at tear, and with none it's 2 shots.

.784 with 3 shots

.64 with 2 shots

.16 + .48*.784 + .36*.64

~76.672%

So yeah, Naesala has a better shot at ORKOing a cover tile general with just adept to assist the mastery than Tibarn does, even if only by a little.

Thing is, Naesala is doing pretty awesome here, just like Tibarn. Clearly whatever Tibarn is doing has been decided to be enough to put him above Micaiah and Laura. I don't see why Naesala couldn't go as well. Or maybe Micaiah and Laura should jump above Tibarn. Of course, that creates issues with Jill/Nephenee/Oscar.

I already think Ranulf should go below Naesala, and did a post about it a day or two ago. I suppose Micaiah and Laura could stand to go above Ranulf, too, considering what they do vs. what he does.

I don't feel like messing with Jill/Nephenee/Oscar right now, except to say Jill > Nephenee > Oscar > Ranulf. Except I'm not sure about Jill v. Nephenee. Nor do I know how the healers fit into that cluster.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

If I may add a bit more?

If Eddie does in fact rise to mid, or rise at all, I think Leo should follow. He might not be as good part 1, but Leo is simply far too epic part 3. Even sealed at level 10, he's capable of being one of your best offensive guys part 3. This in turn does mean you can minimize how much exp he takes to get maximum benefit, and you lose very little when you do dump him part 4. I really see no reason as to why Rolf is above him. Leo's far more useful when he's good than Rolf is when he is. I'd say Leo being king killface part 3 is better than Rolf being by far one of the worst GMs for a good while only to be good part 4.

[Interceptor]

Leo is not epic in Part 3 by any measure that I am aware of. He's still getting 2HKO'ed like most everyone else. Very good Player Phase offense does not a Caineghis make.

[Narga_Rocks]

If I may add a bit more?

If Eddie does in fact rise to mid, or rise at all, I think Leo should follow. He might not be as good part 1, but Leo is simply far too epic part 3. Even sealed at level 10, he's capable of being one of your best offensive guys part 3. This in turn does mean you can minimize how much exp he takes to get maximum benefit, and you lose very little when you do dump him part 4. I really see no reason as to why Rolf is above him. Leo's far more useful when he's good than Rolf is when he is. I'd say Leo being king killface part 3 is better than Rolf being by far one of the worst GMs for a good while only to be good part 4.

He is significantly less "epic" if he doesn't have 15 speed before Lughnasadh. 14 speed is ~level 15/16, which is why I went with that earlier. 14 + 1 (promotion) + 5 = 20 speed. At level 10 he's got ~10 strength and 12 speed, so 11 and 13 after promotion. 27 +2 mt and 18 speed with lugh. Basically, 9 or 11 damage to tigers. 27 or 33 damage on a crit and no second attack. Leaving them with 17 to 23 hp remaining, and only having a ~66% chance of even doing so. Also, less damage to cats as well.

Leo is not epic in Part 3 by any measure that I am aware of. He's still getting 2HKO'ed like most everyone else. Very good Player Phase offense does not a Caineghis make.

Well, as far as any unit in 3-6 goes, in 10 turns at level 19/1 he can kill 9 tigers. That's rather helpful since whatever unit was adjacent to that tiger can usually self heal now and Micaiah/Laura can go heal someone else or even attack a tiger themselves.

I agree completely that he isn't epic, but this is pretty good. On the other hand, Rolf (if raised) is doing alright in 4-E where he's probably ORKOing generals 100%. And since Leo needed to be brought to at least 15/1 just to double those tigers and bring them near death, it isn't as if Leo didn't need babying, and it's much easier to baby units in the GMs part 3 than it is Leo in the DB. Still doable, though.

Dropping a --/17/1 Gatrie into this chapter and give him beastfoe, that would be epic. Or better yet, BK...wait a minute.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

What, did the 3-6 Brave Bow suddenly just dissapear? Give him beastfoe, he can ORKO cats regardless.

[Interceptor]

Most people are pretty good with Beastfoe. The only epic unit that exists in 3-6 is Beyonce Knowles.

[Narga_Rocks]

What, did the 3-6 Brave Bow suddenly just dissapear? Give him beastfoe, he can ORKO cats regardless.

D to C to B. Well, we have discipline, and I have managed to get him to C in time for iron longbow usage in 1-5. I guess he could reach B, but it would require either an arms scroll or actually using him throughout part 1.

As for ORKOing cats, the brave bow has 9 mt. A 10/1 Leo has 11 strength so 22 mt with the brave bow and a support. There are 2 12 def cats on which he does 10 damage a shot and so still doesn't KO with just one crit.

Most of the others have 14 def on which he does 8 damage, so one crit is 32 damage (including the other hit). Needs two crits to KO. There are also 16 def cats on which he does 6 damage. He can double crit and only do 36 damage. Not even close.

Give him beastfoe, sure, he's doing more. But the entire thing with Leo is that he frees up beastfoe for somebody else. Nolan could take beastfoe and hide and do about as well. Heck, why does Leo need to burn brave bow uses when he could just pick up a bowgun and have more accuracy to kill the cats, and it would KO tigers, too?

See, 40 mt doesn't even KO the tigers, but at least he has two shots at critting, except now he's using the brave bow and no wrath, so he's got like 18 or 19 crit at 10/1 so it'll be a really low chance.

Then there is hit rates: a 10/1 Leo has 17.5 skill and 10 luck, so call it 18 skill and 10 luck and give him C Meg (Meg won't be deployed enough to get up to B with Leo this early). Brave bow has 85 hit.

18 * 2 + 10 + 9 + 85 = 140 hit. He'll have an actual miss chance unlike before, and going on bad against enemies on best really hurts. 155 hit with the bowgun, though, so that means at the same bios as the enemies he has 100% hit rate, and even when bio tries to screw him over he's still gonna have a much higher true hit rate.

Most people are pretty good with Beastfoe. The only epic unit that exists in 3-6 is Beyonce Knowles.

True, but Leo puts wrath to better use than anyone else could. Wrath!Leo + Beastfoe!other unit is pretty good. Now, it's only player phase, but this is a defend chapter. Still, though, it needs level 15 or 16 before promotion, so that is annoying.

[Interceptor]

True, but Leo puts wrath to better use than anyone else could. Wrath!Leo + Beastfoe!other unit is pretty good. Now, it's only player phase, but this is a defend chapter. Still, though, it needs level 15 or 16 before promotion, so that is annoying.

Just so we're clear, I'm not disagreeing with your analysis of Leonardo in general. I've been promoting his ability to kill shit with Lugh/Wrath ever since before RFoF's rankings topic got eaten by internet gremlins.

The only issue that I have is classifying his performance as "epic". Even if we didn't have to train him, I don't consider what he's doing to be anything on that level of win. I think it's pretty amusing that Leo is giving Zihark a run for his money due to abusing environment and circumstance, but it doesn't ever rise to the level of even what we are getting out of Volug, whom I consider to be the best non-BK unit in 3-6.

[Narga_Rocks]

True, but Leo puts wrath to better use than anyone else could. Wrath!Leo + Beastfoe!other unit is pretty good. Now, it's only player phase, but this is a defend chapter. Still, though, it needs level 15 or 16 before promotion, so that is annoying.

Just so we're clear, I'm not disagreeing with your analysis of Leonardo in general. I've been promoting his ability to kill shit with Lugh/Wrath ever since before RFoF's rankings topic got eaten by internet gremlins.

The only issue that I have is classifying his performance as "epic". Even if we didn't have to train him, I don't consider what he's doing to be anything on that level of win. I think it's pretty amusing that Leo is giving Zihark a run for his money due to abusing environment and circumstance, but it doesn't ever rise to the level of even what we are getting out of Volug, whom I consider to be the best non-BK unit in 3-6.

Yeah, I've seen some of the Leo stuff from you before. I just never actually calculated a 19/1 Leo's chances of killing a tiger before a day or two ago. I was a little surprised that it hovers around 90%. Even a 15/1 Leo has around 90% if the tiger has been weakened even a little. Well, as long as he hit 14 speed before promotion.

And yeah, since Volug can actually guard and fear death much less than other units do I'd have to consider him to be the best non-BK unit here as well. A trained Leo has to be up there in terms of the unit list.

I wouldn't call Volug epic here, so I'd certainly not call Leo's epic. I'm not sure what words to give it, though, considering tigers are about the biggest pain in this chapter in terms of making the injured ones dead to make certain a player unit won't kill him/her self on enemy phase. And I've been considering Nolan with beastfoe and bowgun and trading in the bronze axe.

[Interceptor]

I don't really understand the whole Bowgun thing, since Tarvos + Beastfoe is already enough to OHKO anything but the strongest tiger standing on a thicket. I guess it allows you to reach out and touch someone, but you don't want to be holding that thing on Enemy Phase. Generally how I tend to use Nolan is to give him Beastfoe + Tarvos, slap Vantage on him (if it procs, Nolan is guaranteed to not get hit, and a 1 in 6 chance is better than nothing), and trade the thing away if it looks like Nolan would face more than two attacks on Enemy Phase, since it's easy enough to always keep him at full health with items and heals.

I agree that Leo's offense is amongst the best because of Wrath, and I'd also rate him highly overall since he can also plug a hole for infinity turns with zero chance of death, but there are other factors to consider. The biggest one is training him, obviously. Although since he doesn't take counters, has an 11mt weapon with dead-eye accuracy from the word "forge", and an excellent affinity, I think that people whinging about him being hard to train are blowing things out of proportion. He needs ~15 levels in like 9-10 chapters, so kill favoritism and babying are involved, but he's no Meg or Fiona.

Plus he's not done after 3-6, either, since the rest of his Part 3 is ledge combat galore. I'm not sure how worthwhile it would be long-term, but you can even crown him for 3-13 and he's able to be ridiculous with his PRF bow at 3-range, with height advantage no less. Just let him get hit once, and he's cooking with fire.

Maybe Leonardo needs to be looked at more in-depth than just his 3-6 performance with a fudged assumed level.