OMG it's a tier list

[Jaybee]

Dang, I should have used Elincia X Renning in that debate.

I give up. I'm hopeless at bringing change.

Chill man, you can't win them all. I should know. Besides, you were actually pretty close. If Kurth rises, Renning won't be far behind.

I haven't won a single debate so far. I'm not even sure on Nailah vs BK since Mekkah had a pretty good counter.

[grandjackal]

Dang, I should have used Elincia X Renning in that debate.

I give up. I'm hopeless at bringing change.

Chill man, you can't win them all. I should know. Besides, you were actually pretty close. If Kurth rises, Renning won't be far behind.

I haven't won a single debate so far. I'm not even sure on Nailah vs BK since Mekkah had a pretty good counter.

I still suck, no need to stop because of it.

As for that, uhh...1 chapter before 1-E utility, more move and being invincible anyways vs his...range..., vs his 3-6 contribution and her endgame performance.

Then consider that him getting kills just weakens the team overall. He literally does rob the team of BEXP, and helping reduce their power for the part 4 performance. 3 routes, some are bound to go one way or another. BK makes it worse on them. At least Vika and Muarim can attempt to build strike rank and Tormod can try to level for his part 4.

All for what? Bits of BEXP? I don't see why BK should be that high for 3 chapters. Same with Raph. Nailah I could see going down, but not below the BK by any means.

[Narga_Rocks]

Why is Geoffrey so high? He only has 2.5 more chapters of availability compared to Volke and yet he is in the tier above him. I know he's useful in 2-3, but it's not impossible with Kieran + Marcia + Danved. How come Janaff and Ulki don't get that king of attention compared to Nailah when they're easily two of the best units in your team?

Guess I ignored this to talk about Renning.

Well, Geoffrey doesn't kick anyone out, for one. At least, not for 2-3 and 3-9. You could argue the chapters are doable with Kieran + Marcia + Danved, but I don't think you can deny they are easier with Geoffrey. Still, if his part 4 actually matters to people then he could be worse than Volke. If we rate them assuming that we must use them every chapter in which they are available, chances are Volke will be far better than Geoffrey in 4-E and 4-5, which should outweigh Geoffrey being the best in 2-3 and tied for the title in 3-9. At least enough to be in the same tier. If we don't, Geoffrey wins on the basis of getting his good without pushing out someone better. That's really enough already to justify the tier gap there. Or it might be. Don't know.

As for the hawks,

Ulki x Janaff do have some issues. An energy drop basically fixes Janaff pretty well, and when he stops ORKOing it'll probably only take a little bit of bexp to get him Tear. I just really don't like the limiting factor of their gauge when we get up to high tier.

However, unless Nolan moves down I think they could stand to move up. Nolan is great for early part 1, mostly for durability since he can miss and never doubles. Then later in the same part he's still somewhat durable but we get lots of others. And I'm not meaning just Tauroneo and Nailah/BK, I mean Volug, Zihark, Tormod, Vika, Muarim, Sothe. In 1-8 Sothe is way more durable simply because of res and the 3 mages in the east including the boss. 1-5 he's basically just playing on a ledge like everyone else, 1-6 he is competing with Taur, Zihark, Volug, and Sothe in 1-6-1 and in 1-6-2 he's not likely to survive the mounted knight swarm on the bridge. He's basically batting clean-up like everyone else. In 1-7 he isn't likely to survive the 4 enemies next to the door, and there is no other spot where his durability leads over say Jill even matter. Anyway, he does really well at the beginning of part 1, but not so great later. He's not bad, don't misread, it's just don't you expect more than average for someone that high? Then in part 3 he should start out able to survive cat + tiger with Tarvos. But he still won't survive 2 39 mt tigers until a little way through the chapter. By 3-13 he should be close to surviving two 41 mt tigers. Really, he is definitely above average defensively here, and by 3-13 he should double tigers rather easily. He needs level 20/15 to start doubling cats, though I suppose that could be cut to level 20/14 with a cheap bexp to finish a level after 3-12. I still don't think he'll be doubling the cats very soon. Still, his offence is only less than Volug, Sothe, and Zihark, and Sothe and Zihark have other issues anyway. I guess part 3 mostly qualifies for high tier. Then his first chapter in part 4 is going to be bad. He'll likely need paragon or a crown to start being awesome earlier, and the crown might hurt his str or def later. Anyway, either way he'll have some issues in the first part of part 4. He only needs 20/20/4 or 20/20/5 to be doubling all the generals in 4-E-1, and really only 20/20/3 to double all but like 2. A few levels in that chapter and he's fine the rest of the way. Really his 4-E is great.

So he falters in late part 1, and the first two chapters of part 4. I don't really think Ulki and Janaff ever falter like that. However, they have just 5 pre-part 4 chapters. Also Ulki will never be 100% ORKOing things like halbs and warriors. Even an energy drop won't save him. Janaff with a drop is fine until he can nab S strike, and even without a drop gets some early. Nolan has 12. With part 4 and 4-E counted as 2, they have 9 chapters to his 16. Does only slightly above average in 1-5 to 1-E and a little below in 4-P/1/2 and probably about average in 4-3/4/5 count as enough to drop him below the hawks? They do have gauge, and Nolan is really rather useful in his other chapters.

Just want to say about Nailah, though others have said it before, she's got 2 pre part 4 chapters compared to the hawks' 5. They don't even get all of 3-7, but that's fine since 1-8 is short. But there is the stomping Nailah puts out relative to other units in her chapter that make the difference. Ulki/Janaff don't really have better offence than Gatrie, or Ike, or Mia. Well, Janaff with a drop beats Mia, but considering he still 3HKOs lots of things without the drop that's a problem. Ulki will basically always be counting on that tear, and even Mia no longer needs adept or crits on halbs and warriors in 4-4 and beyond. As far as durability goes, there durability away from crossbow type weapons is basically their gauge, so Gatrie or Ike or Haar beat them. Mia and Titania with earth support beat them. Oscar with a support active likely beats them, though maybe not before promotion. Really all they've got left is canto and flying and 9 move. They are good, but they aren't Nailah vs. nubs kind of good. And Nailah is still dishing out stompings in part 4. She still destroys the generals in 4-1. She even pulls it off in 4-4 if she has a C fire/water/dark support. However she's only getting that with Leonardo or Tormod. It's unlikely that she'd manage to build a support in 4-1 with anyone. The trouble with those +mt supports is that they'd actually need to be put in harm's way. Adds a little bit of inflexibility to her general stomping. She'd ORKO 9 out of 14 with that support, only 3 out of 14 without. Either way though, don't forget Savage is skill%, and she just happens to have the highest mastery activation % in the game. Well, she starts with 46% and the next best is Cain's 44%. Tibarn has more skill than her, but his mastery is spd%. The hawks are capping speed at 42, so they don't beat her activation. Since it would be unfair to think Cain could get +2 str but Nailah can't get +1 skl, she's likely to have at worst the second best mastery% in the game. And that's only if we train Naesala enough to get him to 25 speed. Anyway, base level Nailah has a 70.84% savage rate. Ike's bio and 80.64% at best bio, 59.04% at worst. She's winning when they are together, beating her fellows by far more than the hawks do their fellows when together. ORKOing everything until 4-4 when she still ORKOs all but 11 generals. By 4-E-1 she can likely get a more useful +mt C support so she's potentially got 55 mt with which to attack. Some generals are now actually ORKOd (like, 8). She's still got that 46% chance to OHKO and 70.84% chance to ORKO. Savage triples str so that's 34x3 + 20 = 122 => OHKOs red dragons. So she savages it dies. Plus she doesn't miss a first turn on 4-E-1, 4-E-2, 4-E-4, 4-E-5. Since we are apparently 2 turning 4-E-2 and 4-E-4 suddenly, on two of these maps she has twice the player phase they have. If we actually 5 turn 4-E-2 to build levels, then this difference is not so significant.

Really all I'm saying is that Nailah should remain above the hawks, whatever else happens.

As for what's currently above Nolan, Zihark's part 1 wins are partially countered by his part 3 mediocrity (bronze sword and removal of Adept to guarantee survival, or let him have better weapons and a good chance of suiciding) and as such they are still meaningful but aren't the end of the story. In part 4 he can be virtually invincible with earth x earth, and depending on level he might even get a few 0s against him. Still, his offence will be worse than others, and having a chance to kill, even a good one, is less than what other have. He 3HKOs what Mia 2HKOs, he 4HKOs what Mia 3HKOs. He suffers from the whole underleveled thing from which most DB members suffer. Durability is all he has. He's above average because lots of units fail to double and he does have crit and possible adept usage. But his durability is not actually so amazing right now what with the hawks, Ike, Gatrie, Titania w/earth, Mia w/earth, Oscar, Tibarn, Nailah. Even Skrimir and Naesala do rather well durability-wise. Plus we have Laura, Micaiah, Rhys, Mist, Elincia, Bastian (only one chapter, though). Access to enough physic staves. Basically, anyone that won't die in one round is doing pretty well if it can tank one enemy phase before healing. Zihark may be able to tank indefinitely without healing while nearby his support partner, but when you have lots of units that already do that for a turn or two and have better offence and can simply heal themselves or be healed after 2 or 3 turns when they start needing it, that lead becomes less significant and he remains simply above average. I could actually see Nolan and Zihark falling a bit. Again though, the hawks have gauge, so really I'm not sure they can go above them. They have hawk gauge, so it isn't as bad as cats and since they get +8 per turn untransformed they only need one grass unlike others that are practically screaming for stones, but it still limits the options.

As for Sothe, he's amazing in part 1, really all of it except 1-E and 1-7. And still pretty good in 1-7. Considering the goal of the chapter is to march through to the boss and claim the tile, everyone can go along the south, have Tormod kill whichever mage has less bio, run up the ledge and kill. This is mostly accomplished by the LEA, though. In part 3 he's still really good offence, though the beast killer does not have 100% hit usually. He can easily have his weapon traded out either by someone healing him with heal/mend, or if you stick Volug next to him on whichever line you choose. Anyway, he's great for most of part 1 and rather good in part 3. His killing is more reliable than Zihark's, since all he needs to worry about is hitting with usually >80% hit rates. Zihark needs to pull a crit. Anyway, then in part 4 I suppose he's not so good. He's getting 2HKOd by stuff still, 3 by some. Even a def blessed Sothe is stuck with 20 def in 4-P. Paladins come in 4s here, mostly. The thing that helps is that it's only 3 chapters out of 15, since he still makes short work of gathering items in the desert. Others can technically grab items, but if we are trying to kill everything and do it quickly, then the fastest way to grab the items is Sothe and Sigrun/Tanith ferrying. In part 4 he's no longer awesome. At least he doesn't take up a spot of someone else, and with the Baselard he can usually finish others' kills. His 3 chapters of not-so-great is actually fewer than Nolan's or Zihark's, so being above them is justified. Again, I'm not so sure about if he's justified above the hawks or not.

[-Cynthia-]

As for the Geoffrey/Volke thing, remember that Geoffrey is only in Mid, the hawks are competing in spots for High which is a bit different.

Basically being the best(ish) unit for 2 chapters> being average for 2 chapters(Volke is pretty average compared to all the great 4-E units).

[Zkirsche]

Let's not underestimate Volke. He has 48 Atk + 35 AS + 48 Crit with the Baselard at base. Enemies have 26-28 ddg by this point. So that's 20-22 Crit, 36-39% when he doubles (against all but SM's), then he has an 18% chance of lethality, so that's ~33% when doubling. If an enemy has 28 Ddg and gets doubled, that's a ~57% chance of killing them ignoring def/HP. I know he 2RKO's stuff, but still, that's pretty impressive. If there's an adept free, he can take it an use it very well. Plus, Volke has the ability to double auras without Nasir's help if you level him up enougth. Not many units can do that.

Oh, and 4-E's ~2 chapters by itself. So it's actually being decent for 3 chapters vs being the best for 1 (Marcia/Danved are better in 3-9 because of ledges. Kieran's also fierce competition.).

Edited August 16, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

Let's not underestimate Volke. He has 48 Atk + 35 AS + 48 Crit with the Baselard at base. Enemies have 26-28 ddg by this point. So that's 20-22 Crit, 36-39% when he doubles (against all but SM's), then he has an 18% chance of lethality, so that's ~33% when doubling. If an enemy has 28 Ddg and gets doubled, that's a ~57% chance of killing them ignoring def/HP. I know he 2RKO's stuff, but still, that's pretty impressive. If there's an adept free, he can take it an use it very well. Plus, Volke has the ability to double auras without Nasir's help if you level him up enougth. Not many units can do that.

Oh, and 4-E's ~2 chapters by itself. So it's actually being decent for 3 chapters vs being the best for 1 (Marcia/Danved are better in 3-9 because of ledges. Kieran's also fierce competition.).

In reality, Volke isn't much different from your other units. He's like a Trueblade with weaker weaponry and a bit more crit is all, but he doesn't have any supports built and has a terrible affinity anyway.

Actually, scratch that part about more crit. Vague Katti's 5 crit cancels out the innate +5 crit the Assassin has on Trueblades.

For comparison purposes, it takes a 20/6 Mia with Vague Katti to tie Volke's base MT with Baselard (This is before supports). In fact, at that point Mia pretty much ties or beats him in everything except 1 crit, 1% mastery, some HP, and Res (Vague Katti's +3 Def covers the Def gap). Take note that Mia will be more like 20/9-10 coming in to Endgame.

Volke's not bad, but he isn't particularly special either. I'd argue Geoffrey is much more valuable for his two chapters, although I'd argue against Danved being better just because of ledges. It gives him another option on routes, but Geoffrey still has Canto which helps with various things like putting out fires, and Kieran has accuracy issues. Marcia's a different story, but durability starts to catch up with her here. Oh, and I noticed this:

being decent for 3 chapters vs being the best for 1

Like 3-9 doesn't even exist?

[Mekkah]

Maybe he meant 2-3 doesn't get much weight due to the failure enemies that give BEXP when left alive.

Good thing about Volke (in comparison to TBs) is that he can get two weapons blessed that no one else really wants because of Sothe being forced but bad at combat. Meanwhile there is two SS swords, but several good candidates for them...

[Zkirsche]

Actually, scratch that part about more crit. Vague Katti's 5 crit cancels out the innate +5 crit the Assassin has on Trueblades.

Baselard has +15 crit. So Volke can have a whopping 15 more crit than Trueblades.

Volke's not bad, but he isn't particularly special either. I'd argue Geoffrey is much more valuable for his two chapters, although I'd argue against Danved being better just because of ledges. It gives him another option on routes, but Geoffrey still has Canto which helps with various things like putting out fires, and Kieran has accuracy issues. Marcia's a different story, but durability starts to catch up with her here. Oh, and I noticed this:

being decent for 3 chapters vs being the best for 1

Like 3-9 doesn't even exist?

A level 15 Kieran beats a level 18 Geoffrey by 5 HP and 1 def whilst Geoffrey wins lolskl, lolres and loluck and 2 str, which is made up for the fact that Kieran uses axes and Marcia is a likely support for Kieran.

Hit issues, what hit issues? A level 15 Kieran with 'C' Marcia has 136 Hit, so that's around ~80 displayed against enemies. Geoff only has 7 more hit than Kieran if he got an avo support, so even he doesn't have 100% hit rates with his steel greatlance. So yeah, I call bullcrap on Kieran having hitting issues and Geoffrey not having them.

Plus, a level 10 Marcia has very similar durability to a level 18 Geoffrey (he only wins by 1-2 in HP, def and avo). So yeah, if Marcia has that bad a durability, Geoffrey's certainly no tank either.

I admit Danved's statistically worse, but considering he's the second fastest unit in reaching the top houses, that should count as more than Geoffrey being able to reach places at the same speed, heck, Danved can even get to the left house in the middle of the chapter slightly faster than Geoffrey too. Plus, Danved can reach level 13 to get 23 AS, a level 18 Geoffrey only has 21 AS. That means Danved can double 16 more enemies than Geoffrey, which is a good offensive lead. So yeah, Geoffrey's even comparable to Danved.

Speaking of Danved, why is he so low? We all know that units in 3-9 can get paragon whilst building little negative utility, it's why Astrid isn't worse than Lyre. Considering this, and giving him 1.25 levels for his first two chapters and 2.5 levels in 3-9, we get this comparison:

Level 14 Danved with a forged steel lance, 'B' Marcia: 43 HP, 36 Atk, 23 AS, 82 Avo, 17 Def, 13 Res

Base Sigrun with a forged steel lance: 34 HP, 33 Atk, 24 AS, 91 Avo, 20 Def, 22 Res

Base Tanith with a forged steel lance: 35 HP, 35 Atk, 23 AS, 83 Avo, 19 Def, 20 Res

Okay, Sigrun wins this one. But with Tanith, it's much closer. 8 HP + 1 Atk vs 8 avo + 2 Def + 7 Res. Idk, it seems pretty tight to me. 8 HP is pretty big.

Skip ahead to 4-3/4/5:

Level 20/2 Danved with a forged silver lance, 'A' Marcia: 50 HP, 45 Atk, 28 AS, 96 Avo, 22 Def, 19 Res

Level 20/5 Sigrun with a forged silver lance, 'B' Tanith: 40 HP, 42 Atk, 27 AS, 100.5 Avo, 23.5 Def, 28.5 Res

Level 20/3 Tanith with a forged silver lance, 'B' Sigrun: 41 HP, 45 Atk, 27 AS, 93 Avo, 24 Def, 26 Res

Now it's more about offence vs defence. Danved wins offence due to higher AS and higher Atk in the case of Sigrun vs Danved. On Defence, it's Danved's massive HP leads vs Tanith/Sigrun's Def leads since mages are uncommon and teh Avo leads are uninspiring.

Basically, I have no clue as to why Tanith is a whopping 2 tiers above these two when they're all quite comparable.

Then, what do Leo/Ilyana have that's putting them a tier above the pair?

[Florete]

Baselard has +15 crit. So Volke can have a whopping 15 more crit than Trueblades.

Don't know how I missed that one...

A level 15 Kieran beats a level 18 Geoffrey by 5 HP and 1 def whilst Geoffrey wins lolskl, lolres and loluck and 2 str, which is made up for the fact that Kieran uses axes and Marcia is a likely support for Kieran.

His base level is 11. When the hell is he getting to 15? 2-3 gives pitiful experience and 2-E gives them virtually no experience.

And since Geoffrey will actually have 3 more Str, the fact that Lances generally have -1 MT to their Axe counterparts means Geoffrey wins.

Hit issues, what hit issues? A level 15 Kieran with 'C' Marcia has 136 Hit, so that's around ~80 displayed against enemies. Geoff only has 7 more hit than Kieran if he got an avo support, so even he doesn't have 100% hit rates with his steel greatlance. So yeah, I call bullcrap on Kieran having hitting issues and Geoffrey not having them.

Except, he's not actually reaching 15 by 3-9, it's absurd. And he's more likely to support Geoffrey than Marcia anyway, at least on 3-9 because it builds like immediately (It's among Kieran's fastest supports, the others being Astrid and Makaloz...I've always gotten them to C by 3-9 without trying at all). Geoffrey has 9 more innate Hit than Kieran, and Lances generally have 10 more Hit than their Axe counterparts, which amounts to ~16 more Hit. Considering an overleveled Kieran has shaky Hit rates (80 displayed isn't bad, but not completely reliable, especially when Biorythm goes bad), I can't see him doing perfectly in that area.

Plus, a level 10 Marcia has very similar durability to a level 18 Geoffrey (he only wins by 1-2 in HP, def and avo). So yeah, if Marcia has that bad a durability, Geoffrey's certainly no tank either.

What's with your inflated levels? Marcia will be reaching level 10 near the end of the chapter and Geoffrey won't ever reach 18 in 3-9 (He won't get Paragon because then we lose it for 3 maps). Base level Geoffrey is similar to level 10 Marcia in concrete durability, but any lower for her and Geoffrey starts winning.

I admit Danved's statistically worse, but considering he's the second fastest unit in reaching the top houses, that should count as more than Geoffrey being able to reach places at the same speed, heck, Danved can even get to the left house in the middle of the chapter slightly faster than Geoffrey too.

BS. It takes Geoffrey 2 turns to reach it from his starting position. Danved can't reach it until the third turn because of enemies in the way. It's a chokepoint, so he can't go around them, and Calill (and possibly Marcia) is the only one who can help him out there, but it won't be fast enough.

Plus, Danved can reach level 13 to get 23 AS, a level 18 Geoffrey only has 21 AS. That means Danved can double 16 more enemies than Geoffrey, which is a good offensive lead. So yeah, Geoffrey's even comparable to Danved.

I don't think you realize how little experience the CRK's get. Only people like Marcia and Astrid can even realistically get a level in 2-3 because of low base levels, possibly Makalov, and the fact that it's a long map with 4 other mounted units to Danved's 7 move, his case isn't looking amazing. Then in 2-E, they most likely won't do anything at all because of their join time and the fact that they don't get Elincia's authority stars.

Speaking of Danved, why is he so low? We all know that units in 3-9 can get paragon whilst building little negative utility, it's why Astrid isn't worse than Lyre. Considering this, and giving him 1.25 levels for his first two chapters and 2.5 levels in 3-9, we get this comparison:

Level 14 Danved with a forged steel lance, 'B' Marcia: 43 HP, 36 Atk, 23 AS, 82 Avo, 17 Def, 13 Res

Base Sigrun with a forged steel lance: 34 HP, 33 Atk, 24 AS, 91 Avo, 20 Def, 22 Res

Base Tanith with a forged steel lance: 35 HP, 35 Atk, 23 AS, 83 Avo, 19 Def, 20 Res

Yeah, level too high. 13 might be okay, 12 would be more accurate. And how did he get a B with Marcia? Even if they do pair up, no way will it be at B on 3-11.

Then, what do Leo/Ilyana have that's putting them a tier above the pair?

Part 1 usefulness, and in Leo's case, part 3.

[Zkirsche]

Yeah, I looked over that and it seems I inflated everyone's levels >_>.

Still, I can hardly see why Tanith is 2 tiers above the pair, as even being 1-2 levels lower wouldn't let Tanith roflstomp him. 'C' Marcia is similar to 'B' Marcia, anyway. Now Tanith and Danved's offence is even more equal.

[Florete]

Personally, I think Makalov and Danved, and probably Sigrun as well, should be in Lower Mid, since they aren't exactly good but all three have their uses and can generally hold their own for the time they're around. Sigrun started there, but I don't remember how Makalov and Danved got there...

[Zkirsche]

Probably in comparison to Sigrun. After all, Sigrun > Danved IMO.

[Jaybee]

2 changes IMO

1. Marcia should be below Heather. I don't think Heather's stealing and availability is worse than Marcia's better fighting.

2. 3-13 Archer to Phail tier.

[Ether]

2 changes IMO

2. 3-13 Archer to Phail tier.

No.STFU.

On a serious note,I think Mia could climb over Ulki.

When Ulki joins,let's say Mia is level --/16.(1.5 levels per chapter,but Mia has been one of our best offensive units,so it's not all that far fetched.)

Mia --/16 (A Ike) @ Steel Forge

Hp:40

Att:37.05

Hit:191

Crt:40

AS:30

Avo:119

Def:16.6

Res:10.25

Ulki 28 Talon

Hp:59

Att:36

Hit:183

Crt:17

AS:36

Avo:132

Def:22

Res:20

Now,it may look like Ulki is stomping her,however,in practice,they are quite similar.

The highest non-crossbow hitrate in this level is 141(which happens to be a sniper BTW,so he still gets an effective bonus on Ulki),so this guy pulls a whopping 9.9% true hit on Mia,and he 3HKOs.In fact,in order to 2HKO Mia you need 36 Att,one enemy on the map has this much,but his hit rate is -6,lolz.

The only thing even remotely close to hitting these guys is crossbows,who 4HKO Mia,but 2HKO Ulki.So effectively,Mia either ties or wins durability.

On offense,Mia also wins.She has similar attack to Ulki,but she does manage to 1RKO Warriors and the longbow sniper,while Ulki doesnt.

So it comes down to activation rates.Mia has 30% Adept and 25% Crit on average,while Ulki has 36% adept and 2% Crit,so Mia wins.

BUT TEAR!!!!,owait,Ulki takes 56% of our Max bexp top get tear,no tear for you,alos,with a single BEXP level up,Mia will proc Str(its her highest non capped growth),and will nab Halbs too.Awesome.

BUT ENERGY DROP!,owait,Mia uses those to the same effect as Ulki(39 Mt HKOs the same as 40 Mt on this map).

And this continues.By the time Ulki gets S strike,Mia will have promoted,so they keep similar Mt scores(except Mia can use stronger weapons too)

As well,Mia has existant 1-2 range,its not that great,but its still a point in her favor,and with storm swords it actually works pretty well.

Mia also doesnt have gauge to worry about,which overrides Ulki's move and flight.

To add to this,Mia has been helping the GM's for 6 more chapters than Ulki.

Mia > Ulki

In fact,I could see her over Janaff as well,since the hawks are quite similar.

Against janaff,she loses offense slightly(there are still a good amount of things they kill in the same number of rounds,so Mia wins against those,but Janaff will 1RKO a few more things,although he only wins bt the % chance that she doesn't kill.

Defensively,Mia beats Janaff's avoid,so she is looking even better against him than Ulki.and again,you have to consider she has 6 chapters over him.

[grandjackal]

I agree to Mak and Danved in lower mid. Why Mak after arguing fiercely to get him to Lethe's level? Well...Didn't realize upon promotion he gets A axes ;;>> He has serious endgame potential. Danved can too, though he needs a bit of favoritism, but his Fire Affinity helps his case more than say Aran. Both can go the brave route, but they can do it pretty well considering for endgame. In Mak's case, I couldn't ask for a better weapon selection choice than swords and axes for endgame. Hammers, Wyrmslayers, Brave Axe, any of the myriad of excellent swords...I think Mak actually might be severely underrated ;;>> Then again, you know how easily hyped I get, so I might be loony.

If Mak goes up though, so does Lethe.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Colonel M]

Upon promotion Mak gets C Axes... but in this game building up weapon rank is a joke with all the Arms Scrolls thrown at you.

[grandjackal]

Upon promotion Mak gets C Axes... but in this game building up weapon rank is a joke with all the Arms Scrolls thrown at you.

Good thing Brace axe is C rank anyways. Hammer I think might be B...Either way, it's not like he has to try to get the rank he wants, it's not like he's going for SS here.

[Zkirsche]

I disagree with Mia getting Ike. Everyone wants Earth. Ike prefers Soren and Mist due to speed and better bonuses. MIa is likely to get Shinon, as it helps his enemy phase. This reduces Mia's avo by 15 and since you don't seem to care for her concrete durability, that's all that really matters. With this, she's actually worse against crossbows as Ulki has a ~7.3% chance to die in 4 rounds from the 156 hit warrior, Mia has a ~7.5% chance to die in 4 rounds. So Yeah, anything about Mia being better durably is BS.

Also, I don't like how you completely ignored flying utility. Yes Ulki has a gauge. So what? Laguz can stay transformed through the use of olivi grasses, Mia can never fly. Ulki's flying utility and movement leads are very important in the swamp, for obvious reasons, 3-8 has various rocks which would slow normal foot units like Mia, 3-11 has traps, also obvious, 3-E has tonnes of trees, again, obvious lead is obvious. Don't even get me started on 4-P/1/2/3/5. So yeah, it's pretty important.

Also, on offence, 40 Atk is enougth to 3HKO 3 generals whilst 39 Atk 4HKO's them, meaning adept works much better in Ulki's advantage.

Though I agree Mia > Ulki. Mia >/ Janaff for the same reasons Gatrie >/ Janaff. Except now she's worse durably AND offensively. Oh and mobility and flight advantages still exist.

[grandjackal]

I agree with kirsche on the IkexMia deal. Only support slower is Shinon, he could support Boyd faster I think ;;>> It just takes a while with those two.

[Mekkah]

Ulki vs Mia also forgot to take into account that Ulki is building a support soon as well, and that Ulki can get Tear without a massive BEXP dump (just takes him some time throughout part 4), and Tear's activation rate >>>> Astra.

[Colonel M]

Astra's failure Astra% rate is aleviated by Mia's Crit rates. So it's not a total blowout.

[-Cynthia-]

It also ignored how Ulki needs to pop grass, so he's wasting several player phases per map doing that and needs to limit his enemy phase exposure somewhat.

On a side note though, I don't know how Mia/Ike isn't plausible. Neither Soren nor Mist is good enough to be even close to be guaranteed in play, and Mist/Boyd nets us a free Spirit Dust, is fast, and provides good bonuses. Mia/Shinon isn't a bad pairing, though Mia/Oscar also works, since Mia still gets Earth and Oscar gets a +Atk affinity.

Mia can also use the Wyrmslayer to ORKO Dracoknights and it's nice on 4-E(3) as well.

Also I think Heather should go the top of Middle. The free stuff she get us is better than Marcia's mediocre combat and Mist's healing IMO. She could even go higher, I was looking at the list of stuff she gets the other day, it's quite a lot.

Edited August 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

I disagree with Mia getting Ike. Everyone wants Earth. Ike prefers Soren and Mist due to speed and better bonuses. MIa is likely to get Shinon, as it helps his enemy phase.

The idea that everyone wants Earth -- which is not even true, by the way -- does not mean that Mia cannot get Ike as a support partner.

This is Adept redux. Everyone "wants" Adept, because it improves their offense, but most of them get stomped by Mia when it comes to what you actually get out of it in terms of benefits for the army. Earth is the same way. Mia is doing much better than anyone else, aside from perhaps Oscar (because of his own innate affinity), and even in that case it's not that she loses, it's that she's not beating him by a factor of 2 or 3 like some of her other match-ups.

IkexMia is one of the very few supports in this game that gives both people what they want (Ike gets mt and HIT, Mia gets avoid). Adding to pile is the fact that they are matching MV, sharing weapons, Ike is forced, neither of them need to be protected, etc. This is Team Epic Win, kiddos. You can send these two anywhere, alone, and they will destroy worlds. The fact that the support is "slow" to build is nothing more than a speed bump.

Saying that Ike prefers Soren and/or Mist is a denial of reality. Ike supporting Soren means that I have to deploy Soren (an awful unit in Hard Mode), or it means I have to bring Mist to Endgame. Both of them need to be protected by Ike: both have paper defenses, Mist has an awful Enemy Phase, and Soren additionally is in danger of getting critblicked almost everywhere. Their "better" bonuses consist of giving Ike things that he doesn't get much out of, like overkill avoid and DEF, while denying him +HIT that he can use for pre-Ragnell 2-range combat and for hitting Endgame bosses and Auras.

Mia getting Shinon is a gift... to Shinon. She'll take Thunder, and he wants Fire, but this is not an ideal support by any stretch of the imagination.

On a slightly different note, we have Yet Another Mia Comparison that fails to take into account both Vantage and the possibility of Cancel. This is ridiculous. Am I the only person on planet Earth that ever takes notice of the fact that Mia can completely negate a non-negligible portion of enemy units by stuffing their attacks with Cancel or a critblick?

@Red Fox -- I give up. nobody agrees with me about Raisin, so it's a waste of time.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

Ulki can use tear to kill just about any-goddamn-thing he wants.

How fragile is Mia anyways?

And it is ludicrous for her to get Ike when she has to wait in line. Soren and Ike unheard of? How exactly? Ike gets the same attack bonus and a greater avoid bonus, and Soren couldn't give a shit who he supports. Soren getting Earth avoid is also pretty magnified.

Lessee, when Soren gets an A with Ikey...

Let's check base, though we know that's not the case.

47+22=69 (...anyone find this ironic? ;;>>)

Mia's base avoid=74

Only a 5 avoid difference. You might say she deserves it more then, but isn't a constant argument for her that she's a good dodger? If that's the case, why does she need Earth? If we can get similar avoid to Soren, we'd have 2 good dodgers on our team, wouldn't ya say?

In fact, an argument for him is that usually we'd crown him, ya? Well he only needs to be level 10. I'd say he has an easier time getting his kills due to large chunks of magic damage and not needing to go into the fray (Mia can't exactly dive into a mob here, not with ehr barely better than Soren's durability).

Soren 11/1

34 HP, 14 Str, 29+2 Mag, 25 Skill, 22 Speed, 13 Luck, 14 Def, 25 Res, 79 avoid.

With Ike's leadership, enemies in let's say 3-7 aren't exactly pulling high hit rates on Soren, and are having a hard time even touching Ike (wouldn't this also help for the whole BK deal?)

Maybe I'm just going off on a tangent here, I just don't see IkexSoren out of the question. I'd certainly see it a bit more reasonable than IkexMia, as Soren and Ike get the bonuses they want faster.

[Interceptor]

Ulki vs Mia also forgot to take into account that Ulki is building a support soon as well, and that Ulki can get Tear without a massive BEXP dump (just takes him some time throughout part 4), and Tear's activation rate >>>> Astra.

Ulki not getting Tear until Part 4 means that he doesn't have Tear in Part 3. Mia doesn't have to wait for her crit, she blicking things from the word "go".

The fact that Tear's activation rate beats Astra's is a nonsense point. Mia has at LEAST a 20 crit advantage over Ulki, and that's before factoring in the fact that she can have up to 15 crit or more forged onto a weapon. Your formula needs to be modified thusly:

Astra + crit >>>> Tear + wutiscrit

Edited August 19, 2009 by Interceptor