OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

However, Lyre (who knew I was gonna bring it up?) would need something like Paragon and an energy drop. You'd start with a unit that is basically Lethe who's missing an important point of speed, BUT is leveling like a 20/7 unit, which is like...Mia back when she was at base.

Um, you do realize you have to double their level for transformed combat. Only multiply by 1.5 for bexp. She levels like she is 20/14. But then she has 22 speed and is basically useless. She needs that bexp in 3-4. Which is like mid twenties% I think. I calculated it already so many times I'm not doing it again. Now she is leveling like she is 20/16 and most likely only picked up skill, speed and either hp or luck. 20/16 is rather slow in 3-4.

Now you will say "BUT SHE'S TAKING THEM FORM THE TEAM!" which s like saying Marcus is an EXP hog. Here's the reason why this should be a penalty rather than just taking it from the team.

-She is not putting immediate use to it, like Kyza would with a speed wing.

-She still needs to be fed kills like most other growth units.

So when do we see results? Well considering her leveling speed under these circumstances, I could see her getting 3-4 levels at a reasonable pace, unlike just about any other laguz on your team save perhaps Kyza. So we get...

How quickly do you see Titania getting 3 or 4 levels? Honestly, Lyre levels like she's 20/16, then 20/18, then 20/20, then 20/20/2 in order to get those 4 levels. Titania with a speedwing gets those levels like she's 20/16, then 20/17, then 20/18, then 20/19. Much easier. Then she's doubling everything for a while (27 speed after promotion, just needs a bit to start doubling in part 4. With paragon, likely already has 28 speed to start part 4.

Lyre takes a long long time to get anywhere, and Lethe isn't doing so hot with 26 mt, what Lyre has with a drop. Lethe's part 3 is salvageable because of extra time to get wexp and reach S long before Lyre and getting 31 mt partway through 3-8. In fact, she can pull off 36 mt at this point if we went and gave her a drop.

Level 20 Lyre, Energy drop

48.5 HP, 10.05 Str, 6.3 Mag, 12.95 Skill, 13.1 Speed, 17.5 Luck, 7.6 Def, 8.9 Res

Transformed, 48.5 HP, 20.05 Str, 12.3 Mag, 24.95 Skill, 26.1 Speed, 17.5 Luck, 14.6 Def, 16.9 Res

Obviously, she's not comparing to Mia any time soon, but that's why they're tiers apart. Let's view this though. She'd only need 2 levels to double, which isn't rediculous in a time span. Someone like Rolf would need 7 levels and a speed wing for such speed. He could get Elite too, but then consider that Lyre can occasionally smack someone untransformed, and when transformed can attack more than one person per turn. As you can see, she is not useless. She's basically geneally as durable is Boyd is, just with more avoid and a durability boosting support. Boyd couldn't reach her speed unless we gave him about 9 levels and a speed wing.

So now we have to consider how well she puts the Energy Drop to use, to see if she gets the return other units would get. There is Janaff and Ulki, but they could just pick up a Satori Sign or Adept. They don't find the Energy Drop to fix what offense problems they might have. There's Shinon, but he could easily just pick up a forge. This leaves basically Oscar, Lethe and Nephenee. Oscar already sort of needs a crown, which I suppose would be fair in exchange for Paragon. Nephenee can level faster on top of getting returns from the drop sooner and more effectively with range and no transformation issues. Lethe is in the same boat, except she only cares for the energy drop, as Paragon would still have her leveling like a level 17 tier 2 beorc, which is still not fast. So she is a -3 on the Energy Drop, and -2 on Paragon. She can be useful with these two things quick, but the problem is those who also want these resources. So as you can see, there is a way to measure resource consumption helping your team. You might say it's favoritism, but the chances of us using many units seriously who would need energy drops is a bit rediculous. But if they ARE to be played, she WILL have to deal with them. But in exchange, she is putting an energy drop to better use than say...Boyd is. Giving him 2 mt is like a raindrop in a well. This idea that taking a stat booster from the team is rediculous, considering certain units require certain resources for a boost that would actually help them (we don't give Gatrie Dracoshields, do we?)

Um, Janaff ORKOs everything but generals for a long time with that drop, and since he won't be critting or adepting or tearing while doing it he just needs 35 combats to reach S, at which point he'll pull 49 mt (if he didn't level and get str) and be one rounding all but generals for all of pre 4-E part 4. This makes him positively epic. Well, when he's transformed. Which is more often than Lyre. Now sure, you could dump bexp or adept on him, but then he takes longer to reach S strike, even then has 45 mt and misses out on some ORKOs, and while Tear has a pretty nice activation and so does adept it isn't like it's nearly as good. I don't really like the hawks, but I almost have to wonder if Janaff might just be the #1 candidate for an energy drop by enough to matter. And how does a forge help Shinon in part 3? 16 mt with a silencer, 15 mt with a forged steel. It's mostly for the crit, but 100% ORKO is better than not.

Then there is class specific problems to measure. Armors have low move, pegasi have arrow weakness, and cats have their problematic gauge. This alone has her in a negative, though it's not as bad as the negatives for Paragon and the Energy Drop (and yes, I DO claim some people put Paragon to better use, as it helps them become awesome. Making an already awesome unit awesomer is a tad redundant and is rather a waste).

Um, a lot of your people who become "awesome" with paragon simply become usable. Paragon on the GMs is the difference between doubling and not doubling. It doubles their damage output and puts units like Gatrie and Titania into ORKO range where they do 60% damage before. By giving paragon to someone else, you get two units doing 60 to 70% damage to an enemy. By giving it to a GM, you now have a unit that does >100% damage. Sure, Mak or whomever does less now, but there are still going to be other units doing 70 to 80% damage and he can finish off their weakened enemies. We have an extra unit that ORKOs now. That's useful.

So as you can see, there is ways to make Lyre quite useful. However, she will still be bottom tier, NOT because she's taking resources from the team, but rather putting them to worse use than others who could use them, and cat gauge.

To measure

Lyre

+Fastest leveling laguz with he most time gives her some priority on Paragon

+Able to utilize Energy Drops

+Thunder Affinity

+Once speed is up, the advantage is never disappearing

+If she can get to level 30, Rend is an insane skill and she will easily have the best activation rate for it out of all the cats

+Untransformed counter on occasion gives her a boatload of BEXP

-Energy drops do not have their presence felt until 2 levels later

-Meaning she still needs to be fed kills

-Meaning others who could put the energy drops to use puts her very low priority for them.

-Cat Gauge really kills her.

There are less negatives in NUMBER, but do see that the negatives are still huge. However, she still has a way to be used. Maybe this is another one of those over-anaylizing deals, but she'd still be in bottom, but she can be used and fixable, just like Fiona. Bleh...

Well, I suppose having 10 average units rather than 2 or 3 awesome units and 5 average units and 2 or 3 under average units might be appealing to some people.

But anyways, this is more on the GM which have access to lots, but also have lots of people. What of some team like the DB? That Dracoshield Leo comes with shouldn't just be ignored. Someone like Eddie or Nolan or Aran could use it to great effect.

Aran? He caps defence at level 20. We accelerate his capping in part 1, make Jill or Nolan or Micaiah a bit harder to use, and get no benefits after part 1. Eddie or Nolan is a good choice, though.

Example. Let's give Eddie the Dracoshield. 3 levels for 1-2

HP: 21.55, Str: 8.8, Skill: 12.95, Speed: 13.8, Luck: 9.5, Def: 6.05+2, Res: who cares

2x Fighter lvl 6 (Iron Axe)

HP 25, Ak 20, AS 10, Hit 102, Avo 26, DEF 7, RES 1, Crit 4, Ddg 6

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Steel Lance)

HP 23, Atk 20, AS 7, Hit 106, Avo 20, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 6

1x Archer lvl 8 (droppable Steel Bow)

HP 23, Atk 22, AS 11, Hit 113, Avo 29, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

Only people that can 2RKO him. As you can see, He does get returns out of this.

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Bronze Lance)

HP 23, Atk 14, AS 10, Hit 116, Avo 26, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Myrmidon lvl 8 ( Iron Sword, Chest key, near SW chests)

HP 22, Atk 14, AS 14, Hit 123, Avo 35, DEF 6, RES 2, Crit 11, Ddg 7-4RKOs

Rest 3RKO.

Um, pretty quickly Edward is still 2RKOd by almost everything. The shield is temporary. It makes him a bit easier to use, and might help boost levels by being more useful earlier, but still.

[grandjackal]

However, Lyre (who knew I was gonna bring it up?) would need something like Paragon and an energy drop. You'd start with a unit that is basically Lethe who's missing an important point of speed, BUT is leveling like a 20/7 unit, which is like...Mia back when she was at base.

Um, you do realize you have to double their level for transformed combat. Only multiply by 1.5 for bexp. She levels like she is 20/14. But then she has 22 speed and is basically useless. She needs that bexp in 3-4. Which is like mid twenties% I think. I calculated it already so many times I'm not doing it again. Now she is leveling like she is 20/16 and most likely only picked up skill, speed and either hp or luck. 20/16 is rather slow in 3-4.

Thus the whole Paragon deal. There, she levels like a level 7 tier 2 unit, which is what Mia was back when she joined. Idea I'm going for is expensive start, but we got the returns much quicker.

Now you will say "BUT SHE'S TAKING THEM FORM THE TEAM!" which s like saying Marcus is an EXP hog. Here's the reason why this should be a penalty rather than just taking it from the team.

-She is not putting immediate use to it, like Kyza would with a speed wing.

-She still needs to be fed kills like most other growth units.

So when do we see results? Well considering her leveling speed under these circumstances, I could see her getting 3-4 levels at a reasonable pace, unlike just about any other laguz on your team save perhaps Kyza. So we get...

How quickly do you see Titania getting 3 or 4 levels? Honestly, Lyre levels like she's 20/16, then 20/18, then 20/20, then 20/20/2 in order to get those 4 levels. Titania with a speedwing gets those levels like she's 20/16, then 20/17, then 20/18, then 20/19. Much easier. Then she's doubling everything for a while (27 speed after promotion, just needs a bit to start doubling in part 4. With paragon, likely already has 28 speed to start part 4.

Lyre takes a long long time to get anywhere, and Lethe isn't doing so hot with 26 mt, what Lyre has with a drop. Lethe's part 3 is salvageable because of extra time to get wexp and reach S long before Lyre and getting 31 mt partway through 3-8. In fact, she can pull off 36 mt at this point if we went and gave her a drop.

Notice I'm not trying to argue Lyre up, just explaining she's not useless. Like I said, I have a tendency to do this to better see how the game functions at it's core.

Level 20 Lyre, Energy drop

48.5 HP, 10.05 Str, 6.3 Mag, 12.95 Skill, 13.1 Speed, 17.5 Luck, 7.6 Def, 8.9 Res

Transformed, 48.5 HP, 20.05 Str, 12.3 Mag, 24.95 Skill, 26.1 Speed, 17.5 Luck, 14.6 Def, 16.9 Res

Obviously, she's not comparing to Mia any time soon, but that's why they're tiers apart. Let's view this though. She'd only need 2 levels to double, which isn't rediculous in a time span. Someone like Rolf would need 7 levels and a speed wing for such speed. He could get Elite too, but then consider that Lyre can occasionally smack someone untransformed, and when transformed can attack more than one person per turn. As you can see, she is not useless. She's basically geneally as durable is Boyd is, just with more avoid and a durability boosting support. Boyd couldn't reach her speed unless we gave him about 9 levels and a speed wing.

So now we have to consider how well she puts the Energy Drop to use, to see if she gets the return other units would get. There is Janaff and Ulki, but they could just pick up a Satori Sign or Adept. They don't find the Energy Drop to fix what offense problems they might have. There's Shinon, but he could easily just pick up a forge. This leaves basically Oscar, Lethe and Nephenee. Oscar already sort of needs a crown, which I suppose would be fair in exchange for Paragon. Nephenee can level faster on top of getting returns from the drop sooner and more effectively with range and no transformation issues. Lethe is in the same boat, except she only cares for the energy drop, as Paragon would still have her leveling like a level 17 tier 2 beorc, which is still not fast. So she is a -3 on the Energy Drop, and -2 on Paragon. She can be useful with these two things quick, but the problem is those who also want these resources. So as you can see, there is a way to measure resource consumption helping your team. You might say it's favoritism, but the chances of us using many units seriously who would need energy drops is a bit rediculous. But if they ARE to be played, she WILL have to deal with them. But in exchange, she is putting an energy drop to better use than say...Boyd is. Giving him 2 mt is like a raindrop in a well. This idea that taking a stat booster from the team is rediculous, considering certain units require certain resources for a boost that would actually help them (we don't give Gatrie Dracoshields, do we?)

Um, Janaff ORKOs everything but generals for a long time with that drop, and since he won't be critting or adepting or tearing while doing it he just needs 35 combats to reach S, at which point he'll pull 49 mt (if he didn't level and get str) and be one rounding all but generals for all of pre 4-E part 4. This makes him positively epic. Well, when he's transformed. Which is more often than Lyre. Now sure, you could dump bexp or adept on him, but then he takes longer to reach S strike, even then has 45 mt and misses out on some ORKOs, and while Tear has a pretty nice activation and so does adept it isn't like it's nearly as good. I don't really like the hawks, but I almost have to wonder if Janaff might just be the #1 candidate for an energy drop by enough to matter. And how does a forge help Shinon in part 3? 16 mt with a silencer, 15 mt with a forged steel. It's mostly for the crit, but 100% ORKO is better than not.

Ok, thought that was Ulki about the energy drops thing (speaking of which, I forgot about him), but I did not know that otherwise.

Again though, the fact he can just forge for the same thing, he wouldn't care for the energy drops. He's not a cantidate, because he has other ways of solving his problems.

Then there is class specific problems to measure. Armors have low move, pegasi have arrow weakness, and cats have their problematic gauge. This alone has her in a negative, though it's not as bad as the negatives for Paragon and the Energy Drop (and yes, I DO claim some people put Paragon to better use, as it helps them become awesome. Making an already awesome unit awesomer is a tad redundant and is rather a waste).

Um, a lot of your people who become "awesome" with paragon simply become usable. Paragon on the GMs is the difference between doubling and not doubling. It doubles their damage output and puts units like Gatrie and Titania into ORKO range where they do 60% damage before. By giving paragon to someone else, you get two units doing 60 to 70% damage to an enemy. By giving it to a GM, you now have a unit that does >100% damage. Sure, Mak or whomever does less now, but there are still going to be other units doing 70 to 80% damage and he can finish off their weakened enemies. We have an extra unit that ORKOs now. That's useful.

Claiming someone like Gatrie's got offense issues? Early crowning gives him the speed he needs for part 3 and Luna, and by the time part 4 rolls around, he's got plenty of speed, and endgame with the spirits he does just as well with a brave weapon. I fail to see why I should bother giving him Paragon when he doesn't need it.

So as you can see, there is ways to make Lyre quite useful. However, she will still be bottom tier, NOT because she's taking resources from the team, but rather putting them to worse use than others who could use them, and cat gauge.

To measure

Lyre

+Fastest leveling laguz with he most time gives her some priority on Paragon

+Able to utilize Energy Drops

+Thunder Affinity

+Once speed is up, the advantage is never disappearing

+If she can get to level 30, Rend is an insane skill and she will easily have the best activation rate for it out of all the cats

+Untransformed counter on occasion gives her a boatload of BEXP

-Energy drops do not have their presence felt until 2 levels later

-Meaning she still needs to be fed kills

-Meaning others who could put the energy drops to use puts her very low priority for them.

-Cat Gauge really kills her.

There are less negatives in NUMBER, but do see that the negatives are still huge. However, she still has a way to be used. Maybe this is another one of those over-anaylizing deals, but she'd still be in bottom, but she can be used and fixable, just like Fiona. Bleh...

Well, I suppose having 10 average units rather than 2 or 3 awesome units and 5 average units and 2 or 3 under average units might be appealing to some people.

Yeeeaaah, those 2-3 awesome units are doing us favors on the routes, aren't they? You can't have 2-3 people do everything. 1. It would take a while to have the enemy just suicide into them (if they are in fact that strong), when I could just use something like tactics to do do the same thing (that is, kill everything) at a faster pace. Then on the routes, you can't have the 2-3 gods do everything because they can't physically be everywhere part 4.

Also technically, it would be 10 above average.

But anyways, this is more on the GM which have access to lots, but also have lots of people. What of some team like the DB? That Dracoshield Leo comes with shouldn't just be ignored. Someone like Eddie or Nolan or Aran could use it to great effect.

Aran? He caps defence at level 20. We accelerate his capping in part 1, make Jill or Nolan or Micaiah a bit harder to use, and get no benefits after part 1. Eddie or Nolan is a good choice, though.

With the shield, he caps it the same time as Skill, which allows him to be BEXPd into HP, Str (where he'd max it, which reverbs into tier 2), and Speed (Ya know, something everyone would love). It does more favors for him than you think, he scores 2 of each this way.

Example. Let's give Eddie the Dracoshield. 3 levels for 1-2

HP: 21.55, Str: 8.8, Skill: 12.95, Speed: 13.8, Luck: 9.5, Def: 6.05+2, Res: who cares

2x Fighter lvl 6 (Iron Axe)

HP 25, Ak 20, AS 10, Hit 102, Avo 26, DEF 7, RES 1, Crit 4, Ddg 6

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Steel Lance)

HP 23, Atk 20, AS 7, Hit 106, Avo 20, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 6

1x Archer lvl 8 (droppable Steel Bow)

HP 23, Atk 22, AS 11, Hit 113, Avo 29, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

Only people that can 2RKO him. As you can see, He does get returns out of this.

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Bronze Lance)

HP 23, Atk 14, AS 10, Hit 116, Avo 26, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Myrmidon lvl 8 ( Iron Sword, Chest key, near SW chests)

HP 22, Atk 14, AS 14, Hit 123, Avo 35, DEF 6, RES 2, Crit 11, Ddg 7-4RKOs

Rest 3RKO.

Um, pretty quickly Edward is still 2RKOd by almost everything. The shield is temporary. It makes him a bit easier to use, and might help boost levels by being more useful earlier, but still.

Pretty much the point.

[Narga_Rocks]

Neph has 34 speed, doesn't really matter. Only slightly worse luck, ditto def, though thunder compounds the difference. Similar strength. Wishblade. And I'm really not sure why Makalov of all units would be getting the vague katti. Mia can ORKO a fair number of units he can't, depending on levels he might not even be able to 3HKO the generals in 4-E-1. Defence doesn't mean anything in 4-E-4, he'll be using a wyrmslayer in 4-E-3 anyway, and the only thing hitting defence in 4-E-5 is the first AoE attack. (Ashera should not be getting turn 4 enemy phase). Plus, he's only doubling thunder spirits in 4-E-4 and needs level 20/18 to ORKO thunder spirits (on cover tiles) with the vague katti, and can't double fire or wind anyway. Needs 45 mt to ORKO fire spirits not on cover tiles, and the brave axe means 43 mt at that level, so he needs to pull a +mt support, when most supports he might be getting are basically part of his competition for paragon in 3-11 and 3-E. (Calill, Marcia, Danved). Other supports I suppose are the new characters in part 4.

Mak has access to the brave axe, so you can shove your 34 AS.

With which he is far far more likely to miss than Neph and a wishblade. Let's see, 80 hit weapon, compared to 100 hit. 5 less luck compared to 5 more skill. She has 25 higher hit with the wishblade. Mak has issues hitting auras consistently with a brave axe. Plus, he needs to somehow be level 20/18 just to get 32 str, so he's not even necessarily getting to 2RKO auras even with a brave and a blood tide. Plus, she has 2 range so she is much more likely to get Nasir than he is to get a tide. Sorry, he has issues the brave axe ain't fixing. Plus, he can't possibly ORKO the spirits on cover tiles with his brave. Nephenee just walks up, pulls out her wishblade, and goodnight. Needs 28 str and a +mt support to take down thunders and winds. Needs 31 str and a +mt support for fire, but oh well.

Wishblade doesn't appear till basically after 4-E-2 with the Alondite, of which I should say Mak's got access to the Vague Katti in that time beforehand. Then factor in Hammers (sorry, 3RKOing generals?) and Wyrmslayers. Defense won't mean much past 4-E-3, but you forget Mak's got Canto to utilize, and can avoid attacks with the use of Alondite.

Have you heard of siege tomes? Turn 1 for the wishblade. If you are routing for levels, she gets it the whole time. If you are 1 or 2 turning for speed, Mak has no advantage here anyway. Plus, aside from Marcia (who is harder to raise than Neph), Neph is the best wishblade user in the game. That's gotta count for a lot over Mak being like number 4 for the vague katti or alondite. Behind Mia, Elincia, Zihark. All of them are either top tier or almost the top of upper mid. Neph is competing with someone near the top of mid. That's it. And those hammers? Sure, he can ORKO with them. 31 speed isn't too hard. But he's got hit issues with them, considering even Renning could miss and he has much more hit than Mak. Plus there are only 2, and there is competition since we have a lot of possible axe users that can go to endgame and don't ORKO without them, either. Many of which have higher hit. I don't like missing.

Also, your assumption on defense not meaning much in 4-E-3,

Can you quote where I said that? Didn't think so.

with one of the two +5 Def boosting swords and his 30 Def, cover+Night Tide can actually give him 50 def. Even Gatrie would need a full defense boosting support to pull that off...Wait! Mak's got a defense affinity too! So under best conditions, Mak can manage 53 Def.

9x Red Dragon lvl 25 (S Strike)

75 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 166 hit, 63 avo, 36 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 12 cev

6x Red Dragon lvl 26 (S Strike)

76 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 167.5 hit, 63.5 avo, 36.5 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 12.5 cev

8x Red Dragon lvl 27

77 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 169 hit, 64 avo, 37 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 13 cev

It would appear they are only doing 5 damage to Mak's 53 HP. Even with just Alondite, he's still managing to survive 3 blasts. With just a cover tile, it's a 4RKO. Cover tile, Alondite and a full defense support and it's a 5RKO. Neph's not pulling anywhere near these numbers. Also, while Impale might fire off more often than Sol, Sol can heal him back up so he's able to keep his durability up free of charge. Considering he's got wyrmslayer access as well, I'd have a hard time imagine he couldn't kill a dragon with a blast of Sol.

Whoopie. Choose. He can't use them both at once, and making someone else trade out his wyrmslayer just so he doesn't get disintegrated on enemy phase is not helpful. He doesn't really do much damage with alondite on the dragons. There are more durable units that do more damage on enemy phase, so why bother with him and alondite? Micaiah with Nosferatu does lots more than him and is immortal. If you gathered all the reds in the map, had every last one of them attack her on enemy phase, then as long as she has that blessed nosferatu and the levels to not be OHKOd, she lives. In fact, when player phase starts, she has full hp and doesn't need healing. Also, she'll have a 100% hit rate, so missing isn't a concern. And those Reds are now so near death almost anyone can take them out, whereas Mak and the alondite means they each have over 50 hp remaining.

There are other durable units that have more strength, as well.

White dragons would be a bit more of a problem, but at least canto could bring you back to a healer or behind a group to keep himself safe regardless.

Yeah, he can go in, attack, and run away. Almost everyone with canto can do that. He's not impressing anyone. He's got issues other units don't have in the other chapters, so merely being average in 4-E-3 doesn't make that paragon earlier worthwhile.

I suppose it isn't nice to say that since a unit is already worse it gets a worse weapon, compounding how much worse it is. But really, Mia is high tier. Elincia is near the top of upper mid. These aren't exactly unlikely users of Vague Katti and Alondite. (Zihark mostly would be better served with a silver critforge, given his inability to ORKO stuff even with the Vague Katti, though by 4-E-4 he's now competition for it as well.) Even Stefan is decent competition for those swords.

Again, it's not like we're bringing every single sword user to endgame just to gimp Mak out of every single sword we can think of. The fact that Mak can effectively wield just about all of the best endgame weapons we can imagine just by himself should be considered.

Effectively? He can pick it up, that doesn't mean he's useful with it. I'd rather have a unit ORKO with it than not. Where does the vague katti even matter for him? Doesn't help in 4-E-1 or 4-E-3 or 4-E-4 or 4-E-5. He needs a hammer he doesn't deserve in 4-E-1, a wyrmslayer + run and hide tactics in 4-E-3, a brave in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5. Not to mention his miss chances and inability to ORKO any of the spirits except thunder and wind while they aren't on cover tiles. Wouldn't you rather give the brave axe to a unit with the strength to at least ORKO the fire spirits while they aren't on cover tiles? And 2RKO the ones on cover tiles rather than 3RKO? Face it, every single bit of resource we can give him along the way goes better on someone else, except the wyrmslayers in 4-E-3 since we can have so many. Sure, he can use it, and maybe that should count for something. But high tier units do better with just about everything we can give him, and are rather likely to be in play. That should count for something, too.

[Narga_Rocks]

edit: oops, I forgot I had just posted. I meant to edit this into the other one after typing it, but hit "add reply" by accident.

Um, you do realize you have to double their level for transformed combat. Only multiply by 1.5 for bexp. She levels like she is 20/14. But then she has 22 speed and is basically useless. She needs that bexp in 3-4. Which is like mid twenties% I think. I calculated it already so many times I'm not doing it again. Now she is leveling like she is 20/16 and most likely only picked up skill, speed and either hp or luck. 20/16 is rather slow in 3-4.

Thus the whole Paragon deal. There, she levels like a level 7 tier 2 unit, which is what Mia was back when she joined. Idea I'm going for is

expensive start, but we got the returns much quicker.

Paragon just doubles what she gets, not reduce her level. If she gets, say, 7 exp a kill, paragon makes it 14. A level 7 tier 2 unit is likely getting more than 14 exp for that same kill. Just compare the exp Titania is getting in early part 3 to what Mia gets. Now double what Titania just got. It still isn't close to what Mia gets.

Again though, the fact he can just forge for the same thing, he wouldn't care for the energy drops. He's not a cantidate, because he has other ways of solving his problems.

But he can't. A forge is less than a silencer, and a silencer fails on things by 1 or 2 mt. That energy drop also means I don't have to slowplay him to get him a better str for part 4, which means I can use him more freely in late part 3 and let him promote earlier. So he does better both in part 3 and part 4. Seems like a good use of an energy drop to me.

Claiming someone like Gatrie's got offense issues? Early crowning gives him the speed he needs for part 3 and Luna, and by the time part 4 rolls around, he's got plenty of speed, and endgame with the spirits he does just as well with a brave weapon. I fail to see why I should bother giving him Paragon when he doesn't need it.

Run the numbers. He likely pulls 26 speed around 3-10 or something. He still needs 28 or 29 speed for the first part 4 chapter, while getting a piddling amount of experience in part 3. He's not getting to 15/6 (28 speed) by the beginning of 4-1/2. He's not likely getting that till late in the chapter, if at all. Paragon fixes that. Then he needs 31 speed in 4-4, 15/11. He's again not likely to reach that anytime important in the chapter without paragon. Paragon in 3-11 and 3-E where exp is a little small but at least decent with paragon means that there will be more time spent doubling. Luna isn't particularly useful when hitting once with a ~25% activation rate at level 15/7. Not nearly as useful as actually doubling and being able to ORKO 100%.

With the shield, he caps it the same time as Skill, which allows him to be BEXPd into HP, Str (where he'd max it, which reverbs into tier 2), and Speed (Ya know, something everyone would love). It does more favors for him than you think, he scores 2 of each this way.

lck ties spd. You could just as easily get just one speed or none. Heck, his res is .25, so there is a good chance he'd get that sometimes. Trust me, he isn't guaranteed to get so much more spd this way, and bexp is rather expensive and it's already difficult enough to get him to level 18 by the end of part 1 without giving up on Micaiah and snailing a few chapters.

Pretty much the point.

Just saying all it does is let us use Edward a couple of chapters with a little less funky tactics. It's something, but we could use less funky tactics with Micaiah with the drop, or with Jill with the drop. Basically, it doesn't do much more for him than for others. There isn't really any #1 candidates here, at least not doritos crowning Gatrie levels of #1. Jill comes the closest, probably, but Nolan is up there, too (faster 3HKO status in part 3, better #RKOds at times in part 1, easier to use in part 4 when he needs to catch up).

Edited August 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Fuck me.

Well, if Mia and Gatrie are to go up and Zihark and Nolan are to go down (all of which I'm fine with to a certain extent), there isn't much in between them so we hit a Zihark vs. Mia again, unless Nailah or Titania are the breaking points or we do something like Gatrie > Zihark > Mia > Nolan with the other randomly in between.

I love this game, but tiering it can be a real pain in the ass.

[Ether]

but I could even see her above Nailah.By the time part 4 rolls around,Mia has hit near invincibility status.(On average she faces around 5.5% true hit in 4-1,although the highest hit guy has around 24% true hit,he has a lolCrossbow,and is 10HKOing her.The next best guy has around 17% true hit,and he 6hko's her.)

On the offensive,Mia is ORKOing anything that isn't a general,and she still has her massive Proc rates against them.

Since Mia has good 1-2 range now(she has a full use tempest blade,and gets another one in 4-4),I would say she beats Nailah pre endgame,since countering 1-2 range should be > killing generals(since Mia has like an 80% chance to do so anyway)

During endgame,It's Nailah being better against Dheg versus Mia doubling Auras without Nasir,so I'd say they are about even here as well.

So essentially it's Nailah's part 1 versus Mia's part 3

Nailah is great for 1-8 and 1-E,no question,but Muarim and BK + all your other prepromos and Volug are raping pretty hard as well,and these are only two chapters.

While Mia has 2 chapters of being average and 9! chapters of rape.Are 1-8 and 1-E so massive as to be > Mia`s part 3,I don`t think so.

Fuck me.

Well, if Mia and Gatrie are to go up and Zihark and Nolan are to go down (all of which I'm fine with to a certain extent), there isn't much in between them so we hit a Zihark vs. Mia again, unless Nailah or Titania are the breaking points or we do something like Gatrie > Zihark > Mia > Nolan with the other randomly in between.

I love this game, but tiering it can be a real pain in the ass.

If you want to give this any weight you could put Nailah in between Gatrie/Mia and Zihark/Nolan for now,and if anyone wants to shuffle them around we can discuss it later.

[Florete]

Zihark

Nailah

Gatrie

Nolan

Mia

Janaff

Ulki

Made some edits. I know it isn't perfect, but it's a start. So, where to next?

[Ether]

Zihark

Nailah

Gatrie

Nolan

Mia

Janaff

Ulki

Made some edits. I know it isn't perfect, but it's a start. So, where to next?

So I guess that means you think Nailah's part 1 > Mia's part 3 then.

Aside from that,I think she should at least be above Nolan,in part 1 he's clutch for 1 chapter,and then get's pummeled into the ground by Sothe/Volug/Taur/Zihark/Tormod/The laguz.I think you get it.He's good again in part 3,but by 3-12 Taur is back,and Aran will have hit his lolDef stage,and they are fighting Beorc.

In 3-13 Nolan is just plugging a chokehole until the map is over,unless we are getting Taur to Luna Ike,where he does even less.

He is then lackluster in part 4 until third tier.

[Zkirsche]

Yeah, I also believe that Nailah should move below Mia and Mia > Nolan. Personally, I think that it should look something like this:

Gatrie

Mia

Zihark

Nolan

Nailah

Janaff

Ulki

Because I think it's been shown enougth times how Zihark isn't whoamg amazing in parts 1 and 3, how Mia is pretty damn good in part 3 and that she owns him come part 4.

[Florete]

So I guess that means you think Nailah's part 1 > Mia's part 3 then.

Not necessarily. As I said, it isn't perfect, I just made the edit to get all the characters in question closer together to make arguing and editing easier.

Aside from that,I think she should at least be above Nolan,in part 1 he's clutch for 1 chapter,and then get's pummeled into the ground by Sothe/Volug/Taur/Zihark/Tormod/The laguz.I think you get it.He's good again in part 3,but by 3-12 Taur is back,and Aran will have hit his lolDef stage,and they are fighting Beorc.

In 3-13 Nolan is just plugging a chokehole until the map is over,unless we are getting Taur to Luna Ike,where he does even less.

He is then lackluster in part 4 until third tier.

To be honest, I think I could see Nolan below the Hawks.

[Zkirsche]

It's indeed quite close. He's quite durable in 3-6 when durability is lacking, is pretty useful in the chapters 1-1 to 1-5 and isn't terribad in chapters 1-6 to 1-E. And whilst Nolan is beaten by the hawks for some time, they lack 1-2 range and has worse affinities than he does so it's not a crushing blow until both get Tear. Of course Janaff/Ulki are pretty damn decent in chapter's 3-7 to 3-E. I prefer Nolan, but I dislike the match-up.

Edited August 20, 2009 by kirsche

[Ether]

Yeah, I also believe that Nailah should move below Mia and Mia > Nolan. Personally, I think that it should look something like this:

Gatrie

Mia

Zihark

Nolan

Nailah

Janaff

Ulki

Because I think it's been shown enougth times how Zihark isn't whoamg amazing in parts 1 and 3, how Mia is pretty damn good in part 3 and that she owns him come part 4.

I agree with Kirsche.Or rather...he is saying the same thing I've been saying for a while.

[grandjackal]

With which he is far far more likely to miss than Neph and a wishblade. Let's see, 80 hit weapon, compared to 100 hit. 5 less luck compared to 5 more skill. She has 25 higher hit with the wishblade. Mak has issues hitting auras consistently with a brave axe. Plus, he needs to somehow be level 20/18 just to get 32 str, so he's not even necessarily getting to 2RKO auras even with a brave and a blood tide. Plus, she has 2 range so she is much more likely to get Nasir than he is to get a tide. Sorry, he has issues the brave axe ain't fixing. Plus, he can't possibly ORKO the spirits on cover tiles with his brave. Nephenee just walks up, pulls out her wishblade, and goodnight. Needs 28 str and a +mt support to take down thunders and winds. Needs 31 str and a +mt support for fire, but oh well.

What, did BEXP suddenly stop existing? By the time we get here, we're swimming in it. By 20/10, he's got Speed Luck and Def capped, and his highest growths from there happen to be HP, Str and Skill.

Have you heard of siege tomes? Turn 1 for the wishblade. If you are routing for levels, she gets it the whole time. If you are 1 or 2 turning for speed, Mak has no advantage here anyway. Plus, aside from Marcia (who is harder to raise than Neph), Neph is the best wishblade user in the game. That's gotta count for a lot over Mak being like number 4 for the vague katti or alondite. Behind Mia, Elincia, Zihark. All of them are either top tier or almost the top of upper mid. Neph is competing with someone near the top of mid. That's it. And those hammers? Sure, he can ORKO with them. 31 speed isn't too hard. But he's got hit issues with them, considering even Renning could miss and he has much more hit than Mak. Plus there are only 2, and there is competition since we have a lot of possible axe users that can go to endgame and don't ORKO without them, either. Many of which have higher hit. I don't like missing.

First off, Elincia's got her own blade.

Again though, you just assume high tiers are played. Why bother arguing past people's own parts when you're just gonna play this card? Fine, Neph's the best user of the Wishblade, but there's only one. Marcia's another unit who'd like to use it. At least with Mak, we got a bit of leeway.

Hit issues though is a perfectly legitimate problem though, but it's not like I'm arguing him to upper mid here. 'm just saying he has ways to compare. He's not hitting as often, but he's certainly a lot tougher.

Can you quote where I said that? Didn't think so.

..Err...Sorry, brain glitch I guess. Happens from time to time.

Whoopie. Choose. He can't use them both at once, and making someone else trade out his wyrmslayer just so he doesn't get disintegrated on enemy phase is not helpful. He doesn't really do much damage with alondite on the dragons. There are more durable units that do more damage on enemy phase, so why bother with him and alondite? Micaiah with Nosferatu does lots more than him and is immortal. If you gathered all the reds in the map, had every last one of them attack her on enemy phase, then as long as she has that blessed nosferatu and the levels to not be OHKOd, she lives. In fact, when player phase starts, she has full hp and doesn't need healing. Also, she'll have a 100% hit rate, so missing isn't a concern. And those Reds are now so near death almost anyone can take them out, whereas Mak and the alondite means they each have over 50 hp remaining.

There are other durable units that have more strength, as well.

Name ones as tough as Mak. I got Gatrie...and that's it.

Even without anything, he's still 3RKOd, something Neph can't speak up about. The point is that Mak's able to pull off actual durability leads. We don't necessarily need to re-equip him whenever, but he's very flexible with his weapon choices.

Yeah, he can go in, attack, and run away. Almost everyone with canto can do that. He's not impressing anyone. He's got issues other units don't have in the other chapters, so merely being average in 4-E-3 doesn't make that paragon earlier worthwhile.

Oh sweet, every other paladin. Since when was Neph a paladin?

Effectively? He can pick it up, that doesn't mean he's useful with it. I'd rather have a unit ORKO with it than not. Where does the vague katti even matter for him? Doesn't help in 4-E-1 or 4-E-3 or 4-E-4 or 4-E-5. He needs a hammer he doesn't deserve in 4-E-1, a wyrmslayer + run and hide tactics in 4-E-3, a brave in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5. Not to mention his miss chances and inability to ORKO any of the spirits except thunder and wind while they aren't on cover tiles. Wouldn't you rather give the brave axe to a unit with the strength to at least ORKO the fire spirits while they aren't on cover tiles? And 2RKO the ones on cover tiles rather than 3RKO? Face it, every single bit of resource we can give him along the way goes better on someone else, except the wyrmslayers in 4-E-3 since we can have so many. Sure, he can use it, and maybe that should count for something. But high tier units do better with just about everything we can give him, and are rather likely to be in play. That should count for something, too.

By the time spirits show up, he's cap ramming and very viable for BEXP. Spirits are not an issue for anyone save Gareth. It's only a problem for like 1 chapter, and then the bigger issues are auras.

As for Vague Katti, it is another weapon he can wield to stil be effective in some way (so we could give the hammer to "someone better" ), as he can find ways to even be invincible to some units here with it in hand. You can't just downplay the fact he's got weapon choices by saying "Others can use them", because he can effectively do what it would take two people with inflexible weapon choices to do. Anything you need for endgame, he's got.

Paragon just doubles what she gets, not reduce her level. If she gets, say, 7 exp a kill, paragon makes it 14. A level 7 tier 2 unit is likely getting more than 14 exp for that same kill. Just compare the exp Titania is getting in early part 3 to what Mia gets. Now double what Titania just got. It still isn't close to what Mia gets.

Then I guess Mia doesn't care to have Paragon then, if she's leveling fine as is.

...Did not know that though. Though now thinking about it, I don't even know where I came to that assumption.

Either way, her leveling speed is at least fixable. 14 exp per kill for a laguz isn't too bad.

But he can't. A forge is less than a silencer, and a silencer fails on things by 1 or 2 mt. That energy drop also means I don't have to slowplay him to get him a better str for part 4, which means I can use him more freely in late part 3 and let him promote earlier. So he does better both in part 3 and part 4. Seems like a good use of an energy drop to me.

Ohhhh, I thought you were saying he could get one of those weapons and...

Either way, I'm not trying to argue her up, just saying her problems are at least fixable. She isn't useless, just low priority. Thus why she is in bottom. I suppose this just adds another reason to the system working against her.

Run the numbers. He likely pulls 26 speed around 3-10 or something. He still needs 28 or 29 speed for the first part 4 chapter, while getting a piddling amount of experience in part 3. He's not getting to 15/6 (28 speed) by the beginning of 4-1/2. He's not likely getting that till late in the chapter, if at all. Paragon fixes that. Then he needs 31 speed in 4-4, 15/11. He's again not likely to reach that anytime important in the chapter without paragon. Paragon in 3-11 and 3-E where exp is a little small but at least decent with paragon means that there will be more time spent doubling. Luna isn't particularly useful when hitting once with a ~25% activation rate at level 15/7. Not nearly as useful as actually doubling and being able to ORKO 100%.

BEXP gets the same job done just fine. Lemme guess, using BEXP is a sin and we shall never use it, right?

lck ties spd. You could just as easily get just one speed or none. Heck, his res is .25, so there is a good chance he'd get that sometimes. Trust me, he isn't guaranteed to get so much more spd this way, and bexp is rather expensive and it's already difficult enough to get him to level 18 by the end of part 1 without giving up on Micaiah and snailing a few chapters.

Wait, they're the same? *double checks* ...Could have sworn that luck was at least 5% less...

...Either way, it helps ;;>>

Just saying all it does is let us use Edward a couple of chapters with a little less funky tactics. It's something, but we could use less funky tactics with Micaiah with the drop, or with Jill with the drop. Basically, it doesn't do much more for him than for others. There isn't really any #1 candidates here, at least not doritos crowning Gatrie levels of #1. Jill comes the closest, probably, but Nolan is up there, too (faster 3HKO status in part 3, better #RKOds at times in part 1, easier to use in part 4 when he needs to catch up).

I'm aware, just saying Eddie can benefit too is all.

No idea why we'd give the dracoshield to a 1-2 range unit who later gets doubled where her pathetic regardless durability would get her killed anyways...;;>>

[Narga_Rocks]

What, did BEXP suddenly stop existing? By the time we get here, we're swimming in it. By 20/10, he's got Speed Luck and Def capped, and his highest growths from there happen to be HP, Str and Skill.

But most units are looking for bexp since they are capping stuff. At this point everyone basically can have bexp if they get close enough to a level and bexp the rest, but they aren't getting two at once. And anyone who finishes a chapter at 20 exp or something just takes so much to get their level that it really hurts. On NM I can fully see Mak capping HP, Str, and Skl in time for the last two chapters. Not on HM. Maybe a little bit extra.

First off, Elincia's got her own blade.

Yeah, making her epic with dragonfoe since she two hits everything before they can attack on player phase. Thing is, marksmen with the double bow can accomplish the same thing on player phase from three range. Give her the wyrmslayer, she can ORKO whites (takes a counter if she doesn't stun, or cancel if she has that) and do a fair amount of damage to reds. Without wyrmslayer and no dragonfoe, I guess she still gets whites with amiti, but only does like 40 damage to reds, though it is 4 shots at stun, but she needs 2 stuns or a stun and an adept activation to kill. One stun or adept with a wyrmslayer and it's dead. In 4-E-4, she'd like Alondite for times where she doesn't need to pwn something on player phase and wants to be useful on enemy phase. Similar to Mak, minus the pwning on player phase. Elincia might have her own blade, and it's awesome, but she isn't only using it. Though of course almost all sword users get wyrmslayers, which is why I didn't dispute it in 4-E-3.

Again though, you just assume high tiers are played. Why bother arguing past people's own parts when you're just gonna play this card? Fine, Neph's the best user of the Wishblade, but there's only one. Marcia's another unit who'd like to use it. At least with Mak, we got a bit of leeway.

Well, if you have 3 amazing sword users, chances are one is used. Besides, I'm also saying that the vague katti doesn't really do much for him, and he'll be 3RKOing fire/wind spirits on cover tiles. 2RKOing the ones that aren't. (ORKO thunder, 2RKO thunder on a cover tile.) Look, I am okay with lower mid for the guy, he does have options and occasionally he can make use of those options. Unless you want him higher I don't think I actually have anything to dispute with you here.

Hit issues though is a perfectly legitimate problem though, but it's not like I'm arguing him to upper mid here. 'm just saying he has ways to compare. He's not hitting as often, but he's certainly a lot tougher.

Yeah, he passes here. Gas (kidding). But we can't ignore there are better options, just like we can't ignore that he is an option.

Can you quote where I said that? Didn't think so.

..Err...Sorry, brain glitch I guess. Happens from time to time.

I hope I wasn't too harsh, but reading that again I'm not sure if it came out that way.

Whoopie. Choose. He can't use them both at once, and making someone else trade out his wyrmslayer just so he doesn't get disintegrated on enemy phase is not helpful. He doesn't really do much damage with alondite on the dragons. There are more durable units that do more damage on enemy phase, so why bother with him and alondite? Micaiah with Nosferatu does lots more than him and is immortal. If you gathered all the reds in the map, had every last one of them attack her on enemy phase, then as long as she has that blessed nosferatu and the levels to not be OHKOd, she lives. In fact, when player phase starts, she has full hp and doesn't need healing. Also, she'll have a 100% hit rate, so missing isn't a concern. And those Reds are now so near death almost anyone can take them out, whereas Mak and the alondite means they each have over 50 hp remaining.

There are other durable units that have more strength, as well.

Name ones as tough as Mak. I got Gatrie...and that's it.

Even without anything, he's still 3RKOd, something Neph can't speak up about. The point is that Mak's able to pull off actual durability leads. We don't necessarily need to re-equip him whenever, but he's very flexible with his weapon choices.

He needs a pretty high level and a support from somewhere to get to 3RKOd without the tiles, and they aren't everywhere. Alondite would let him take on 2 dragons, but I don't think that's too much to write home about. Haar, Gatrie, anyone with tons of avo, Ike's pretty good here (37 def, 65 hp, try 4HKOd by reds and he has lots of avo) there are others that don't need weapon switching fun and yadda yadda.

Yeah, he can go in, attack, and run away. Almost everyone with canto can do that. He's not impressing anyone. He's got issues other units don't have in the other chapters, so merely being average in 4-E-3 doesn't make that paragon earlier worthwhile.

Oh sweet, every other paladin. Since when was Neph a paladin?

Since hacking? It wasn't about Neph alone. It's about all the other units. Paragon on other paladins gets us all we get with Mak and more.

Effectively? He can pick it up, that doesn't mean he's useful with it. I'd rather have a unit ORKO with it than not. Where does the vague katti even matter for him? Doesn't help in 4-E-1 or 4-E-3 or 4-E-4 or 4-E-5. He needs a hammer he doesn't deserve in 4-E-1, a wyrmslayer + run and hide tactics in 4-E-3, a brave in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5. Not to mention his miss chances and inability to ORKO any of the spirits except thunder and wind while they aren't on cover tiles. Wouldn't you rather give the brave axe to a unit with the strength to at least ORKO the fire spirits while they aren't on cover tiles? And 2RKO the ones on cover tiles rather than 3RKO? Face it, every single bit of resource we can give him along the way goes better on someone else, except the wyrmslayers in 4-E-3 since we can have so many. Sure, he can use it, and maybe that should count for something. But high tier units do better with just about everything we can give him, and are rather likely to be in play. That should count for something, too.

By the time spirits show up, he's cap ramming and very viable for BEXP. Spirits are not an issue for anyone save Gareth. It's only a problem for like 1 chapter, and then the bigger issues are auras.

Surviving isn't an issue. Actually killing the things is. At least when the things are on cover tiles.

As for Vague Katti, it is another weapon he can wield to stil be effective in some way (so we could give the hammer to "someone better" ), as he can find ways to even be invincible to some units here with it in hand. You can't just downplay the fact he's got weapon choices by saying "Others can use them", because he can effectively do what it would take two people with inflexible weapon choices to do. Anything you need for endgame, he's got.

Meh, he can use it. He just needs something else like Adept now, but his proc rate will be lower even if he does 3HKO generals rather than 4HKO. If he can pull 3HKO, then he's only really competing with Mia for the vague katti in 4-E-1, so I guess that should count for something. Of course, if Z has the str to 3HKO, then that's two units who both get better proc rates for pulling something to kill. And aside from 4-E-2 it doesn't matter. If you rout 4-E-2, Mak is actually a much better unit than if you don't. Vague Katti lets him pull some ORKOs, though he's similar to Mia offensively, which I guess can only be a good thing. He might have the 33 speed by now, so he doubles all those warriors. Honestly, if we can agree on routing 4-E-2 then Mak might have to move up one or two spots. But since that isn't as fast as what we can do, Ike killing BK quickly, I'm not sure it is counting.

Paragon just doubles what she gets, not reduce her level. If she gets, say, 7 exp a kill, paragon makes it 14. A level 7 tier 2 unit is likely getting more than 14 exp for that same kill. Just compare the exp Titania is getting in early part 3 to what Mia gets. Now double what Titania just got. It still isn't close to what Mia gets.

Then I guess Mia doesn't care to have Paragon then, if she's leveling fine as is.

Of course Mia doesn't need paragon. With an Ike support she sometimes needs to be given a steel blade to reduce her amount of kills and slow down her leveling. Adept is far better than paragon for her. Never even brought her up in the "who benefits from paragon" thing I was doing. Just using her as an example for what paragon does.

...Did not know that though. Though now thinking about it, I don't even know where I came to that assumption.

We all make mistakes.

Either way, her leveling speed is at least fixable. 14 exp per kill for a laguz isn't too bad.

Note I'm not to sure on how much she gets. It could be a little less in early part 3, and likely a bit more towards the end of part 3.

But he can't. A forge is less than a silencer, and a silencer fails on things by 1 or 2 mt. That energy drop also means I don't have to slowplay him to get him a better str for part 4, which means I can use him more freely in late part 3 and let him promote earlier. So he does better both in part 3 and part 4. Seems like a good use of an energy drop to me.

Ohhhh, I thought you were saying he could get one of those weapons and...

Either way, I'm not trying to argue her up, just saying her problems are at least fixable. She isn't useless, just low priority. Thus why she is in bottom. I suppose this just adds another reason to the system working against her.

Well, it is a dilemma, really. If she's being used, we'd like to make her useful. Still, by not having her at all, all the other units are better and she gets replaced with someone who didn't need all that junk to get to mediocre. Still, if she's in play it might be worthwhile giving her some things so she doesn't just gum everything forever. But it should be noted that if she wasn't there the entire group ends up much better. Of course, that's why she's at the bottom.

Run the numbers. He likely pulls 26 speed around 3-10 or something. He still needs 28 or 29 speed for the first part 4 chapter, while getting a piddling amount of experience in part 3. He's not getting to 15/6 (28 speed) by the beginning of 4-1/2. He's not likely getting that till late in the chapter, if at all. Paragon fixes that. Then he needs 31 speed in 4-4, 15/11. He's again not likely to reach that anytime important in the chapter without paragon. Paragon in 3-11 and 3-E where exp is a little small but at least decent with paragon means that there will be more time spent doubling. Luna isn't particularly useful when hitting once with a ~25% activation rate at level 15/7. Not nearly as useful as actually doubling and being able to ORKO 100%.

BEXP gets the same job done just fine. Lemme guess, using BEXP is a sin and we shall never use it, right?

That mostly depends on how much you are using. We aren't exactly giving Gatrie a 3 level dump of bexp. That is way too much. At times it is worthwhile giving a 2 level dump, 1 level is easier to excuse. But dumping 3 levels to force 28/29 speed is kinda overboard. And it compounds Gatrie's non-forge using hit issues. He isn't always using a forge, and when he picks up something else he'd like the extra skl and lck he'd get from strapping on paragon and leveling normally. It isn't like Gatrie is getting things capped at 15/2 or anything, so he loses helpful stats.

lck ties spd. You could just as easily get just one speed or none. Heck, his res is .25, so there is a good chance he'd get that sometimes. Trust me, he isn't guaranteed to get so much more spd this way, and bexp is rather expensive and it's already difficult enough to get him to level 18 by the end of part 1 without giving up on Micaiah and snailing a few chapters.

Wait, they're the same? *double checks* ...Could have sworn that luck was at least 5% less...

...Either way, it helps ;;>>

Yeah, but without pulling out massive amounts of bexp he's likely just going from 18.8 to 20 in 3-6, though that is still kinda expensive so maybe only 19.5 to 20. So he might get one or two there. Then there is after he caps stuff in part 3. To be cheap, that's maybe 20/8 by the end of 3-12, though that could be pushing it a lot. Then in the 3-13 base he gets one finishing bexp level, in 4-P/1/2 he gets another. That's 3, maybe 4 bexp things along the way. With getting 3 speed in 4 levels, but he'd normally get 1 in those levels, that's a net +2 gain. So basically he likely won't be doubled in part 4 thanks to that bexp, but he's not ever doubling anything. Just a durability boost, really.

No idea why we'd give the dracoshield to a 1-2 range unit who later gets doubled where her pathetic regardless durability would get her killed anyways...;;>>

Well, there is the fact she isn't doubled by everything. There is actually a fair amount of things not doubling her. Then there are times like in 1-5 where she can safely stand on a ledge. Without the shield, things OHKO her. With it, they don't. That means she can stand on a ledge with a 30% hit rate against and be okay. She probably won't get hit and won't need healing, but her chance to get hit is not her chance to die. Having a Micaiah that can take a hit in 1-9 is superior to one that can't, doesn't matter so much in part 3, though. In 4-P she's getting doubled, so that's bad. Still, give her resolve and she can double a lot with just 18 speed (27 doubles in 4-P, but not 4-1/2) and if she has it then being 2HKOd means she can get hit by something on enemy phase and not die then start destroying on player phase with thani. Anyway, I'm not saying she's the best choice. Jill and Nolan are likely higher up the list. But she's similar to Edward or Aran to get it, since it helps her about as much as it helps them. Oh, also those reinforcements in the north east, it is useful if Micaiah can take a single hit from them, since you could conceivably kill 3 after they show up and just have an archer left. If she can take a hit, then it's easier to position while killing 3 of them since we don't have to care where she stands afterwards.

Anyway, that's why I'd stick one on her. Same as with Ed, makes it easier to use her for a while.

[grandjackal]

But most units are looking for bexp since they are capping stuff. At this point everyone basically can have bexp if they get close enough to a level and bexp the rest, but they aren't getting two at once. And anyone who finishes a chapter at 20 exp or something just takes so much to get their level that it really hurts. On NM I can fully see Mak capping HP, Str, and Skl in time for the last two chapters. Not on HM. Maybe a little bit extra.

A with an offensive booster, he only needs 32 Str for brave axe to be effective 2RKO on auras. Yet another reason to justify MakxDevden, or MakxMarcia.

Skill indeed will still be a problem, but the point is he doesn't need to cap necessarily. Just enough to get him the boost he needs.

Yeah, making her epic with dragonfoe since she two hits everything before they can attack on player phase. Thing is, marksmen with the double bow can accomplish the same thing on player phase from three range. Give her the wyrmslayer, she can ORKO whites (takes a counter if she doesn't stun, or cancel if she has that) and do a fair amount of damage to reds. Without wyrmslayer and no dragonfoe, I guess she still gets whites with amiti, but only does like 40 damage to reds, though it is 4 shots at stun, but she needs 2 stuns or a stun and an adept activation to kill. One stun or adept with a wyrmslayer and it's dead. In 4-E-4, she'd like Alondite for times where she doesn't need to pwn something on player phase and wants to be useful on enemy phase. Similar to Mak, minus the pwning on player phase. Elincia might have her own blade, and it's awesome, but she isn't only using it. Though of course almost all sword users get wyrmslayers, which is why I didn't dispute it in 4-E-3.

Fair enough

Well, if you have 3 amazing sword users, chances are one is used. Besides, I'm also saying that the vague katti doesn't really do much for him, and he'll be 3RKOing fire/wind spirits on cover tiles. 2RKOing the ones that aren't. (ORKO thunder, 2RKO thunder on a cover tile.) Look, I am okay with lower mid for the guy, he does have options and occasionally he can make use of those options. Unless you want him higher I don't think I actually have anything to dispute with you here.

...I thought this was justifying him in lower mid ;;>>

But as for the spirits, again it's not a major problem. They only really matter 4-E-4, which is a joke anyways.

Yeah, he passes here. Gas (kidding). But we can't ignore there are better options, just like we can't ignore that he is an option.

Well I can't disagree there, but I just wanted to point out that he DOES have endgame to some extent. I mean, why is Geoff a tier above him? Epic for 2 chapters? Granted that's good, but Geoff vanishes and sucks endgame, while it's pretty much the reverse for Mak. Overall though, Keiran has the benefit of epic part 2, then being tough at least in part 3, while being usable part 4 as well. Perhaps there should be a tier gap between Keiran and Geoff...

He needs a pretty high level and a support from somewhere to get to 3RKOd without the tiles, and they aren't everywhere. Alondite would let him take on 2 dragons, but I don't think that's too much to write home about. Haar, Gatrie, anyone with tons of avo, Ike's pretty good here (37 def, 65 hp, try 4HKOd by reds and he has lots of avo) there are others that don't need weapon switching fun and yadda yadda.

Well he's got time to get a support built up, so that's not a problem.

Haar and Gatrie are just as good here, but Mak can be generally around the same toughness as Gatrie with the advantage of canto allowing him to run for Cover or Wardwood for when the time is appropriate, or run back to Kurth for the Night Tide bonus. Haar also has this benefit, but that's why Haar's so damn high.

Also, comparing someone to a god who's forced anyways is ludicrous. Who the hell CAN compare to him aside from a Swordmaster with an Earth support, of which HE gives?

Since hacking? It wasn't about Neph alone. It's about all the other units. Paragon on other paladins gets us all we get with Mak and more.

True enough, but Mak is still perfectly eligeable for endgame just as well, and paladins DO have their advantages at this point over other classes. I mean Keiran's pretty cool, but I don't see him pulling off Mak speed at endgame, and Mak's got the benefit of Keiran's best weapons for endgame, Hammer and Brave Axe.

Surviving isn't an issue. Actually killing the things is. At least when the things are on cover tiles.

Not all units can just ORKO a dragon or whatever. Sometimes, taking a chip at 'em will help someone who has actually less durability that dragons potentially endanger them be able to take out a dragon without getting hurt, allowing them an extra enemy phase attack. We'd like these units chipping away to be tough on some levels, and Mak fits the bill.

Meh, he can use it. He just needs something else like Adept now, but his proc rate will be lower even if he does 3HKO generals rather than 4HKO. If he can pull 3HKO, then he's only really competing with Mia for the vague katti in 4-E-1, so I guess that should count for something. Of course, if Z has the str to 3HKO, then that's two units who both get better proc rates for pulling something to kill. And aside from 4-E-2 it doesn't matter. If you rout 4-E-2, Mak is actually a much better unit than if you don't. Vague Katti lets him pull some ORKOs, though he's similar to Mia offensively, which I guess can only be a good thing. He might have the 33 speed by now, so he doubles all those warriors. Honestly, if we can agree on routing 4-E-2 then Mak might have to move up one or two spots. But since that isn't as fast as what we can do, Ike killing BK quickly, I'm not sure it is counting.

See? Not entirely ludicrous. Besides, Ike's accuracy with the hammer on the BK isn't perfect. Not out of reasons a couple turns of 4-E-2 could happen.

Of course Mia doesn't need paragon. With an Ike support she sometimes needs to be given a steel blade to reduce her amount of kills and slow down her leveling. Adept is far better than paragon for her. Never even brought her up in the "who benefits from paragon" thing I was doing. Just using her as an example for what paragon does.

Either way it shows some benefit more form Paragon than others.

Note I'm not to sure on how much she gets. It could be a little less in early part 3, and likely a bit more towards the end of part 3.

Well whatever a level 14 tier two unit gets for a kill, double it and that's what you get.That's what Shinon was back at the start of part 3, so...It could be forgiveable speed at least.

Well, it is a dilemma, really. If she's being used, we'd like to make her useful. Still, by not having her at all, all the other units are better and she gets replaced with someone who didn't need all that junk to get to mediocre. Still, if she's in play it might be worthwhile giving her some things so she doesn't just gum everything forever. But it should be noted that if she wasn't there the entire group ends up much better. Of course, that's why she's at the bottom.

It's less she hurts the team as much as she isn't using the same resources as well as those that would like it, namely Shinon, Janaff, Oscar, Nephenee, and whoever wants paragon. Basically, she's a low priority Energy Drop unit. Can't really hurt a whole group, unless you're using all these people every playthrough. Again, let's not just assume we're always using high tiers. Just saying even considering, she'd still be bad. Thus indeed why she is in bottom.

That mostly depends on how much you are using. We aren't exactly giving Gatrie a 3 level dump of bexp. That is way too much. At times it is worthwhile giving a 2 level dump, 1 level is easier to excuse. But dumping 3 levels to force 28/29 speed is kinda overboard. And it compounds Gatrie's non-forge using hit issues. He isn't always using a forge, and when he picks up something else he'd like the extra skl and lck he'd get from strapping on paragon and leveling normally. It isn't like Gatrie is getting things capped at 15/2 or anything, so he loses helpful stats.

He's got 26 AS at crowning for when he caps speed. It's only 2.

Yeah, but without pulling out massive amounts of bexp he's likely just going from 18.8 to 20 in 3-6, though that is still kinda expensive so maybe only 19.5 to 20. So he might get one or two there. Then there is after he caps stuff in part 3. To be cheap, that's maybe 20/8 by the end of 3-12, though that could be pushing it a lot. Then in the 3-13 base he gets one finishing bexp level, in 4-P/1/2 he gets another. That's 3, maybe 4 bexp things along the way. With getting 3 speed in 4 levels, but he'd normally get 1 in those levels, that's a net +2 gain. So basically he likely won't be doubled in part 4 thanks to that bexp, but he's not ever doubling anything. Just a durability boost, really.

It's more for the minor boosts then crowning. Though considering that, it only amplifies your point.

Well, there is the fact she isn't doubled by everything. There is actually a fair amount of things not doubling her. Then there are times like in 1-5 where she can safely stand on a ledge. Without the shield, things OHKO her. With it, they don't. That means she can stand on a ledge with a 30% hit rate against and be okay. She probably won't get hit and won't need healing, but her chance to get hit is not her chance to die. Having a Micaiah that can take a hit in 1-9 is superior to one that can't, doesn't matter so much in part 3, though. In 4-P she's getting doubled, so that's bad. Still, give her resolve and she can double a lot with just 18 speed (27 doubles in 4-P, but not 4-1/2) and if she has it then being 2HKOd means she can get hit by something on enemy phase and not die then start destroying on player phase with thani. Anyway, I'm not saying she's the best choice. Jill and Nolan are likely higher up the list. But she's similar to Edward or Aran to get it, since it helps her about as much as it helps them. Oh, also those reinforcements in the north east, it is useful if Micaiah can take a single hit from them, since you could conceivably kill 3 after they show up and just have an archer left. If she can take a hit, then it's easier to position while killing 3 of them since we don't have to care where she stands afterwards.

Anyway, that's why I'd stick one on her. Same as with Ed, makes it easier to use her for a while.

I suppose...But at least it helps Eddie become something better. I mean, soon enough Michaiah still becomes someone needing to rely on range as anyone would double and kill her anyways in the future. Doesn't change her from being a Purger endgame to a battle mage. It's something to keep in mind, long term benefits.

[Narga_Rocks]

A with an offensive booster, he only needs 32 Str for brave axe to be effective 2RKO on auras. Yet another reason to justify MakxDevden, or MakxMarcia.

The trouble is they are mid tier or lower mid. Now, I like Marcia, and if it wasn't for having to spend 2 or 3 chapters catching up just for 3 or 4 chapters of being good/great, I'd try to argue her up. But a fair amount of her existence is catching up, so I can't really justify it. In fact, given how it's a 01 pairing and Marcia likely wouldn't mind getting +2 mt, +2def/res, +8 hit, +8 avo, it can even be a decent support for both parties. But Marcia isn't always going to be there. Really, I can't figure out with whom to pair him. He should have a support for endgame, though, since we are planning on using him. So he could generally have a B support for 4-E given 3-11, 3-E, 4-P/1/2, 4-3/4/5. He'd be making someone else break a support if another CRK isn't in play. Plus Marcia is great in 4-3 given flight and access to wyrmslayers. It's basically her, Tanith, and Sigrun, and Marcia's going to be better at it. And better for endgame. 4-3 is not kind to Makalov. Anyway, so since he's going to endgame, that means we can plan ahead. A GM going to endgame will likely have to break a support, but it is conceivable that Mak could get +mt. I just don't think it is guaranteed that we would decide the unit best able to give up an A level support in 4-P/1/2 will be fire/water/dark. So anyway, let's give Makalov an A support in 4-E-3, and a B in 4-E-1. To get a 2RKO, he needs 53 mt. 23 x 4 = 92. So he needs 30 str with an A fire/water/dark and 2 blood tides. 30 + 11 + 2 + 10 = 53. His strength cap is 34. He gets 34 + 11 + 5 + 2 = 52 with just one blood tide. Only 22 x 2 = 44 damage, a 3RKO. But as I've said before, since other units are showing up, and some will do 50 or something, it isn't too bad. But he needs to cap str, and so even with a lot of bexp help he needs 20/16. And that's getting to level 20/11 and then 5 levels of bexp. Some bexp boosting can be done after getting exp in the chapters, but he's still likely going to cost at least 2 full levels, probably a bit more depending how close you get him in some maps. Not sure how many full levels of 5100 to 5600 bexp each we can give him. That's looking at probably >12000 bexp. It's a fair amount.

Skill indeed will still be a problem, but the point is he doesn't need to cap necessarily. Just enough to get him the boost he needs.

I just want to make sure people understand that being able to double with an SS weapon is superior to taking a brave weapon since the hit rate is much higher and thus a better chance of not facing more Ashera attacks.

Well, if you have 3 amazing sword users, chances are one is used. Besides, I'm also saying that the vague katti doesn't really do much for him, and he'll be 3RKOing fire/wind spirits on cover tiles. 2RKOing the ones that aren't. (ORKO thunder, 2RKO thunder on a cover tile.) Look, I am okay with lower mid for the guy, he does have options and occasionally he can make use of those options. Unless you want him higher I don't think I actually have anything to dispute with you here.

...I thought this was justifying him in lower mid ;;>>

But as for the spirits, again it's not a major problem. They only really matter 4-E-4, which is a joke anyways.

I can't really continue to fight against his lower mid possibilities, since being redeemable has to count for something. A lot of the units in low are simply not redeemable offensively in 4-E. But honestly, his 4-E isn't really that much better than Renning's. In fact, Renning should have higher hit with the various weapons, and has an epic Elincia support for making 0 hit issues at times (it hurts Elincia a bit, but hey, Mak's GM buddies have to break a support. His CRK buddies must be fielded. Elincia is way higher than them, thus more likely to be played.). Renning is a bit slower, but that mostly just hurts him for half of 4-E-1 and all of 4-E-2. Plus he already has SS sword and A axe, so he can use silver forges right off the bat. Plus a bit more strength. Renning is only a little worse than Mak offensively in a couple of chapters, but 27 defence and 56 hp isn't all bad. And the alondite gets him to 3HKO from reds same as Mak. And either could be given dragonfoe to ORKO with alondite. Really, Renning is only slightly worse than Makalov, and yet he didn't need all that building to get there. Oh, and not doubling thunder spirits, but you are generally downplaying the whole spirits thing.

Yeah, he passes here. Gas (kidding). But we can't ignore there are better options, just like we can't ignore that he is an option.

Well I can't disagree there, but I just wanted to point out that he DOES have endgame to some extent. I mean, why is Geoff a tier above him? Epic for 2 chapters? Granted that's good, but Geoff vanishes and sucks endgame, while it's pretty much the reverse for Mak. Overall though, Keiran has the benefit of epic part 2, then being tough at least in part 3, while being usable part 4 as well. Perhaps there should be a tier gap between Keiran and Geoff...

Hmm, I guess it's just Geoff is really clutch in 2-3 and Mak is never clutch. I don't know if that's big enough, but Mak does have a few chapters of under average-ness or outright suck. Like 2-3, 2-E (outright suck), 3-11, 3-E, first half of 4-1/2, first half of 4-4/5. Then a few chapters of being okay. Maybe a bit above okay. Not sure how he is in 3-9, but considering bexp gathering in 2-3 and no stars in 2-E I'm not sure how he can get more than 1 level beforehand.

He needs a pretty high level and a support from somewhere to get to 3RKOd without the tiles, and they aren't everywhere. Alondite would let him take on 2 dragons, but I don't think that's too much to write home about. Haar, Gatrie, anyone with tons of avo, Ike's pretty good here (37 def, 65 hp, try 4HKOd by reds and he has lots of avo) there are others that don't need weapon switching fun and yadda yadda.

Well he's got time to get a support built up, so that's not a problem.

Haar and Gatrie are just as good here, but Mak can be generally around the same toughness as Gatrie with the advantage of canto allowing him to run for Cover or Wardwood for when the time is appropriate, or run back to Kurth for the Night Tide bonus. Haar also has this benefit, but that's why Haar's so damn high.

Also, comparing someone to a god who's forced anyways is ludicrous. Who the hell CAN compare to him aside from a Swordmaster with an Earth support, of which HE gives?

Yeah, Ike's awesome. Sure, not many can really compare. But that's the entire point. He's still there. Oh, and if anyone is wondering, Ike can use a wyrmslayer on player phase, and if Ragnell is in slot #2, then you can use another unit to trade with Ike and switch the wyrmslayer with a healing item, and Ragnell will auto-equip. So Ike can use one weapon on player phase and another on enemy phase, just like anyone else (though he can only go not Ragnell to Ragnell, but he can't go Ragnell to not Ragnell, but we don't want him to do so anyway). Despite not being able to have another unit move Ragnell directly to the top.

I'm just saying, when given multiple units that can attack on enemy phase, and we can pretty easily arrange whomever we want for that action, we have to consider that Mak is mostly limited to wyrmslayer hit and runs. Not to say that's bad. It's actually pretty sweet to have him run in and attack. I still think 4-E-2 is his best chapter.

Since hacking? It wasn't about Neph alone. It's about all the other units. Paragon on other paladins gets us all we get with Mak and more.

True enough, but Mak is still perfectly eligeable for endgame just as well, and paladins DO have their advantages at this point over other classes. I mean Keiran's pretty cool, but I don't see him pulling off Mak speed at endgame, and Mak's got the benefit of Keiran's best weapons for endgame, Hammer and Brave Axe.

Don't forget forged hand axes for 4-E-1 and 4-E-2. They both get them, as well.

Yeah, Kieran's got speed problems Mak doesn't have. Fun fact: Mak with Marcia bond and daunt has 40 cev, meaning all those 37 crit swordmasters in 4-E-2 can cry. Snipers and their 31/32 crit can cry just from daunt. And Mak only needs level 20/11. So Mak has another reason to be awesome in 4-E-2. Mak's issue that Kieran doesn't have as much of is it's a lot quicker to get Kieran to tier 3. However, that should be partially counteracted by the whole never doubling anything ever thing that Kieran starts doing after part 2. Still, I think Kieran being pretty good in 2-3 and 3-9 is what's pushing him above Mak.

Surviving isn't an issue. Actually killing the things is. At least when the things are on cover tiles.

Not all units can just ORKO a dragon or whatever. Sometimes, taking a chip at 'em will help someone who has actually less durability that dragons potentially endanger them be able to take out a dragon without getting hurt, allowing them an extra enemy phase attack. We'd like these units chipping away to be tough on some levels, and Mak fits the bill.

This was about spirits. As in, grabbing Alondite on enemy phase and tanking spirits while on a wardwood tile. Surviving spirits isn't an issue. Well, when the level is played slowly. If you try to rush the boss without Rafiel and a bunch of royals, there will be times where surviving is an issue without enough units with the offence to crush the spirits that move.

Meh, he can use it. He just needs something else like Adept now, but his proc rate will be lower even if he does 3HKO generals rather than 4HKO. If he can pull 3HKO, then he's only really competing with Mia for the vague katti in 4-E-1, so I guess that should count for something. Of course, if Z has the str to 3HKO, then that's two units who both get better proc rates for pulling something to kill. And aside from 4-E-2 it doesn't matter. If you rout 4-E-2, Mak is actually a much better unit than if you don't. Vague Katti lets him pull some ORKOs, though he's similar to Mia offensively, which I guess can only be a good thing. He might have the 33 speed by now, so he doubles all those warriors. Honestly, if we can agree on routing 4-E-2 then Mak might have to move up one or two spots. But since that isn't as fast as what we can do, Ike killing BK quickly, I'm not sure it is counting.

See? Not entirely ludicrous. Besides, Ike's accuracy with the hammer on the BK isn't perfect. Not out of reasons a couple turns of 4-E-2 could happen.

About as close to perfect as it gets. BK has only 80 avo. Hammer has 60 hit. Ike just needs to get 120 hit and he'd have 100%.

40x2 + 30 + 15 = 125. He has 5 points leeway. A level 20/15 Ike has 40 skill and 21 luck. Also 34 speed is easy considering he's screaming "slowplay me" in part 3. At this point, he has a 96% listed hitrate on the BK. If he's on good, it's perfect. If he's on worst, he's pulling 86 listed. 96.22 true hit. With 36 mt, hammer ORKOs the guy (no weapon triangle in HM, remember). 92.58% of the time. Not perfect, but he can destroy on turn 1 enemy phase. Even if he misses, that's still a destroy on turn 2 player phase. Not much action for everyone else. That's why I make sure BK and Ike don't meet until I want to end the chapter. I could let Ike use something that just scratches the BK, but I'd rather not have to heal Ike, so I just alternate between moving him left 6 squares and right 6 squares.

Note I'm not to sure on how much she gets. It could be a little less in early part 3, and likely a bit more towards the end of part 3.

Well whatever a level 14 tier two unit gets for a kill, double it and that's what you get.That's what Shinon was back at the start of part 3, so...It could be forgiveable speed at least.

Not so fast. A level 20/16 unit. If we want her to be semi useful in 3-4, we just bexped her to level 18 (aka: 20/16) so that she actually doubles. But with paragon she actually gets something, though unless you are waiting until 3-11 she's taking one from the DB.

That mostly depends on how much you are using. We aren't exactly giving Gatrie a 3 level dump of bexp. That is way too much. At times it is worthwhile giving a 2 level dump, 1 level is easier to excuse. But dumping 3 levels to force 28/29 speed is kinda overboard. And it compounds Gatrie's non-forge using hit issues. He isn't always using a forge, and when he picks up something else he'd like the extra skl and lck he'd get from strapping on paragon and leveling normally. It isn't like Gatrie is getting things capped at 15/2 or anything, so he loses helpful stats.

He's got 26 AS at crowning for when he caps speed. It's only 2.

More like 25 speed at crowning. But that's way back in 3-4 or something. So I gave him 26 speed later on. Point is, 28 speed is only for some things in 4-1 and most in 4-2. There are actually 25 speed warriors in 4-1 so Gatrie needs 29 speed. I'd rather get him there faster, even if it's possible I'll just have Mia x Ike kill them all. But 28 speed might be somewhat cheap, though he does have a 50% hp growth, so he isn't guaranteed speed. And 45% skill. Pretty close, actually.

I suppose...But at least it helps Eddie become something better. I mean, soon enough Michaiah still becomes someone needing to rely on range as anyone would double and kill her anyways in the future. Doesn't change her from being a Purger endgame to a battle mage. It's something to keep in mind, long term benefits.

Well, considering my blaze through 4-E-3 strategy relies on Micaiah not being OHKOd by the reds, and since some people don't give her enough levels she might need that shield to survive the hit, it isn't just part 1. To be honest I don't give her the shield (except for the testing, it helps there if Micaiah can take a hit) for a normal playthrough, just saying it helps her too. And with levels and possibly some bexping when she caps stuff she's not getting doubled all the time, just swordmasters. There are times in which she still gets doubled by others, sure, but it isn't a constant.

[Ether]

So wait,if you guys bith want Mak to go to lower mid,why are you still arguing?

Yeah, I also believe that Nailah should move below Mia and Mia > Nolan. Personally, I think that it should look something like this:

Gatrie

Mia

Zihark

Nolan

Nailah

Janaff

Ulki

Because I think it's been shown enougth times how Zihark isn't whoamg amazing in parts 1 and 3, how Mia is pretty damn good in part 3 and that she owns him come part 4.

Also, This^

[grandjackal]

Since we both agree he's lower mid and that he does have his advantages endgame. Though I still wonder why Geoff is that close to Keiran. You say he's clutch, when truth is he's no more clutch than Keiran, we can do the map without him.

Not so fast. A level 20/16 unit. If we want her to be semi useful in 3-4, we just bexped her to level 18 (aka: 20/16) so that she actually doubles. But with paragon she actually gets something, though unless you are waiting until 3-11 she's taking one from the DB.

I suppose since the DB actually want it, taking it from another team would limit our unit ability part 4, and thus would actually be stealing x.x

More like 25 speed at crowning. But that's way back in 3-4 or something. So I gave him 26 speed later on. Point is, 28 speed is only for some things in 4-1 and most in 4-2. There are actually 25 speed warriors in 4-1 so Gatrie needs 29 speed. I'd rather get him there faster, even if it's possible I'll just have Mia x Ike kill them all. But 28 speed might be somewhat cheap, though he does have a 50% hp growth, so he isn't guaranteed speed. And 45% skill. Pretty close, actually.

His growth's in Str, Speed and Def is 60%, he's got quite a head on those stats ahead of HP and Skill.

Well, considering my blaze through 4-E-3 strategy relies on Micaiah not being OHKOd by the reds, and since some people don't give her enough levels she might need that shield to survive the hit, it isn't just part 1. To be honest I don't give her the shield (except for the testing, it helps there if Micaiah can take a hit) for a normal playthrough, just saying it helps her too. And with levels and possibly some bexping when she caps stuff she's not getting doubled all the time, just swordmasters. There are times in which she still gets doubled by others, sure, but it isn't a constant.

Ahhhh

[Narga_Rocks]

So wait,if you guys bith want Mak to go to lower mid,why are you still arguing?

'Cause it's fun. :P Also I'm discussing his actual capabilities and working through what he might actually be able to do. Discussions like that are also fun.

Since we both agree he's lower mid and that he does have his advantages endgame. Though I still wonder why Geoff is that close to Keiran. You say he's clutch, when truth is he's no more clutch than Keiran, we can do the map without him.

Well, he's got more strength than Marcia for the brave lance. Also, Danved takes far too long to get to the boss. Anyway, maybe I shouldn't say clutch, just really really good. If you went slow enough, you could probably beat some of early part 1 without Nolan. Doesn't mean he isn't really useful there.

His growth's in Str, Speed and Def is 60%, he's got quite a head on those stats ahead of HP and Skill.

Well, he's quite likely to get them. But the thing is, hp is only .1 behind. Throw in the fact there are 3 skills that are all just .1 above, and it means in any given level up there is likely a fair chance that one of those three isn't gained and hp is instead. It could be spd that misses out. But yes, he is quite likely to get spd, probably more often than not, though we don't know precisely how bexp levels work.

Yeah, I also believe that Nailah should move below Mia and Mia > Nolan. Personally, I think that it should look something like this:

Gatrie

Mia

Zihark

Nolan

Nailah

Janaff

Ulki

Because I think it's been shown enougth times how Zihark isn't whoamg amazing in parts 1 and 3, how Mia is pretty damn good in part 3 and that she owns him come part 4.

Also, This^

Yeah, I like this, too. Well, Nolan could probably drop (stay) below Nailah, and I'm not certain on Nailah v. Zihark. And Nolan is pretty clutch early part 1 and one of the few that can actually get to 3HKOd in part 3, but Red Fox of Fire might just be right about Nolan deserving to be below the hawks. Not quite sure, though.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

Oh God I just realized something... the apocalypse is nigh.

Mia

Zihark

Anyone think Jill and Aran should drop a little too?

[Ether]

Oh God I just realized something... the apocalypse is nigh.

Mia

Zihark

Anyone think Jill and Aran should drop a little too?

Atleast I know I'll have some support on this one.Kirsche and narga already showed they agree,and I expect Int will be agreeable.So long as we can survive Smash,we should be okay.Unless thou wish to causeth trouble?

[Narga_Rocks]

Just thinking, though, but Zihark has 4 chapters in part 1. 1-6, 1-7, 1-8, 1-E. He happens to be rather good in 1-6, but still competes with others. For example, a raised Aran is better on the bridge than Zihark in 1-6-2. If you are trying to get kills for everyone, then Tauroneo and one other unit blocks the bridge. I think at a high enough level Aran will survive, though I'm not sure how high a level he'd need to be. Paladin rushes of 5 or 6 attacks don't go well and Zihark already starts with 30 hp and 13 def, so Aran would need a fair number of levels to top that. Then there is Volug going up to save Fiona, the possibility of just using Jill to ferry Tauroneo to the boss, or Jill to ferry Sothe up to assist Volug and eventually take out the boss. Sothe simply has a better ranged weapon (forged iron knife) than Zihark (wind edge) and a lot of enemies up there have 1-2 range. In 1-7, it's all about the LEA. Easiest way to rush through and get Micaiah to seize. Also Zihark would have some issues surviving up the left side (4 enemies at once. 3 if you kill one before they move), especially with no support. Nailah is a force of nature in 1-8 and 1-E. Zihark is barely top 5. There are few slots most of the time. Then in part 3 we know he's not doing so well, and they have the same availability in part 4 and Zihark's best maps are either with Tibarn or Ike, but with Tibarn there are lots of thickets slowing him down. So his best route is the one in which Nailah is forced anyway. Nailah still slaughters him in part 4. Zihark being above average in part 1, a little below average in part 3, and Nailah being a god in half of his part 1 chapters makes me think Nailah > Zihark. And she still beats him for most of part 4. 54 mt still beats the most Zihark is ever getting. Unless he caps str and takes a +mt support, but then she still ties his mt without giving her a support. She's ORKOing stuff while he's still 3HKOing or 4HKOing generals. And she has the highest mastery activation rate in the entire game that she can use for slaughtering stuff once she stops ORKOing. All he's got is the possibility of overkill avo with double earth, but if she is dying for anybody in any chapter before 4-E-3 I think that person is doing something wrong. (I'd say Doing It Wrong, but Int trademarked it already, I think.) Well, she shouldn't die ever, really, it's just a lot less sad to get her killed in 4-E-3 than in any earlier chapter.

Oh God I just realized something... the apocalypse is nigh.

Mia

Zihark

Anyone think Jill and Aran should drop a little too?

But who would she drop beneath? Oscar? He rarely doubles, though that 24 is good at times for paladins. He doesn't get up past 32 in tier 3, has low strength for a while. Generally below average for offence in part 3. When he isn't doubling, his low strength means he does less damage than other non-doublers. When he does double, he generally doesn't ORKO anyway, and the other units like Titania are often doubling the same enemies, so they do kill the things and Oscar loses offence again. All he's really got is his earth support. Jill actually makes a pretty good option for Zihark, though, considering it's the best way to get him a C for 1-7. Depending on how 1-5 plays out, they could actually get 12 points towards a support level, meaning they'd only need another 22 in 1-6, and 6 adjacents with a unit that has canto is a lot more reasonable than 9 adjacents with a unit that doesn't (Volug) or 12 with a unit that doesn't (Nolan). So Jill could actually get a good shot at an Earth support. Plus she has a pretty good part 3. Some issues in part 1, but she's a really good candidate for a seraph robe there. Oscar shouldn't automatically get something just because I'm giving Jill something. The opportunity cost of giving Jill a seraph robe is far lower than the opportunity cost of giving Oscar anything, so if I were to give him an energy drop it might just hurt him more. Still, even with that drop he's got the doubling issues, just he's now closer to killing anything he doubles, and might actually pull it off. Oscar's got 3-4 and 3-7 issues as well.

All in all, I think Jill > Oscar is still reasonable.

[Florete]

Before going into Jill and Aran, I want to hear other thoughts on kirsche's proposed order, perhaps with Nolan below the Hawks.

[Ether]

Before going into Jill and Aran, I want to hear other thoughts on kirsche's proposed order, perhaps with Nolan below the Hawks.

Well you know me and narga already agreed,as for Nolan,I'm not so sure,though I would probably go with below them.

[Colonel M]

All in all, I think Jill > Oscar is still reasonable.

In other words either Jill is fine as is or you see Oscar too high. If I'm reading this right.

(Not 100% sure on the Seraph Robe ordeal, but Micaiah could use it to keep herself away from a ORKO or maybe Nolan? can use it. I know the former can to some degree).

Edited August 21, 2009 by Colonel M