OMG it's a tier list

[Ether]

All in all, I think Jill > Oscar is still reasonable.

In other words either Jill is fine as is or you see Oscar too high. If I'm reading this right.

(Not 100% sure on the Seraph Robe ordeal, but Micaiah could use it to keep herself away from a ORKO or maybe Nolan? can use it. I know the former can to some degree).

You get two seraph robes in part 1,also,do you have any objections to the order Kirsche posted earlier,so we can move on.

[Colonel M]

Do I? Well... not exactly.

[Ether]

Do I? Well... not exactly.

Well,that's nice and Vague...

[Narga_Rocks]

Before going into Jill and Aran, I want to hear other thoughts on kirsche's proposed order, perhaps with Nolan below the Hawks.

Well, I'm thinking something like this:

Gatrie

Mia

Nailah

Zihark

Nolan

Janaff

Ulki

I'm not accepting Gatrie > Mia, btw, just not fighting for it right now.

As for Nolan and the hawks, Nolan is great in early part 1. He's not great at first in part 3, but he quickly becomes #2 considering durability and offence. He may not quite have the durability of a raised Aran, but he's definitely got him beat offensively. Tauroneo needs that crown to actually get to 3HKOd, and while that isn't a bad idea, Nolan is still doing rather well.

In 1-5 to 1-E and 4-P/1/2 is where the real problem areas are, I guess. I said earlier you might be right. Hawks have gauge, but 9 move and flight and canto. Only 16wt (Janaff) and 20wt (Ulki) transformed, though. There are things they can't pick up. Especially once more units are tier 3. Still, without doing questionable things they aren't perfect offensively either, and are never clutch like Nolan is in early part 1. In 1-5, there are still ledges, so that helps since Nolan can have a C support here, maybe B Edward if a person wants to give themselves a headache in 1-4 and pull it off in 9 or 10 turns. So he likely does more damage and faces smaller hit rates than most units while standing on the ledge, and aside from the mages I think he's 3HKOd. Actually, I think even mages. Basically, he does the best up there on that ledge.

1-6 he's still doing okay, though he's starting to face the issue of better units. Zihark, Tauroneo, Volug. Even Jill with a forged axe on anything with <= 11 speed. Nolan likely doesn't have 15 speed yet. In 1-7 he faces the issue most have here, the LEA are key in rushing the chapter. 1-8 he's not good for facing the mages in the east, but can help a bit on the way there. 1-E I don't think is that good for him, not sure though. 4-P/1/2 he definitely loses to the hawks. In 4-P he can double most things in tier 2, but that sends him to the desert. 4-1/2 he needs 28 speed for a fair amount. Although, a hammer in 4-1 only needs 26 speed for most enemies. He can do fairly well offensively, and with the right supports can do fine defensively, too.

I guess he's got enough issues relative to the hawks that I could see him go either way.

So maybe:

Gatrie

Mia

Nailah

Zihark

Janaff

Ulki

Nolan

Could work, too.

All in all, I think Jill > Oscar is still reasonable.

In other words either Jill is fine as is or you see Oscar too high. If I'm reading this right.

(Not 100% sure on the Seraph Robe ordeal, but Micaiah could use it to keep herself away from a ORKO or maybe Nolan? can use it. I know the former can to some degree).

You saw through me, a bit. I'm not confident in Oscar's position, but we are already changing so much in high that I figured I'd leave upper mid alone. Mostly, wherever Jill goes, I'd like to see Oscar stay with her. Preferably under her, though I could live with her directly beneath him. By live with I don't mean agree, just not argue about it. And I haven't looked too much into the other units with which Jill would compete, or the other units with which Oscar would compete. So maybe there was nothing to see through, cause Oscar might be okay.

As for the seraph robe, there are generally 4 decent candidates that I see in part 1.

Jill

Micaiah

Aran

Nolan

Aran has longevity issues, Nolan has lots of hp but could also use more. Micaiah mostly benefits in 1-9 and immortality at lower levels in 4-E-3. I think she benefits any time she isn't doubled in the rest of the game, as well, since enemy mt sometimes grows faster than her hp/def combo. She's doubled off and on throughout her existence, but there are plenty of times where it helps. At times she can even double with resolve, so being able to take that first hit from an enemy to start it all is beneficial.

Given how Jill is rather helpful in part 3 if leveled and Nolan doesn't exactly need the hp to be raisable in part 1, I think in this case getting Nolan even more durable is not as good a choice as making Jill more durable. Sometimes I'd say making one character more amazing and leaving another around average is better than making two characters above average, but I don't think it is here. It does get Nolan to 3HKO in part 3 faster, but still.

Anyway, there are other units of course that can use a seraph robe as well, I just think those 4 are the main contenders, and since we have 2 and I think Jill is one of the better candidates of those 4, I think her getting a seraph robe has a lower opportunity cost and gives higher benefits than giving Oscar an energy drop.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Ether]

Before going into Jill and Aran, I want to hear other thoughts on kirsche's proposed order, perhaps with Nolan below the Hawks.

Well, I'm thinking something like this:

Gatrie

Mia

Nailah

Zihark

Nolan

Janaff

Ulki

I'm not accepting Gatrie > Mia, btw, just not fighting for it right now.

As for Nolan and the hawks, Nolan is great in early part 1. He's not great at first in part 3, but he quickly becomes #2 considering durability and offence. He may not quite have the durability of a raised Aran, but he's definitely got him beat offensively. Tauroneo needs that crown to actually get to 3HKOd, and while that isn't a bad idea, Nolan is still doing rather well.

In 1-5 to 1-E and 4-P/1/2 is where the real problem areas are, I guess. I said earlier you might be right. Hawks have gauge, but 9 move and flight and canto. Only 16wt (Janaff) and 20wt (Ulki) transformed, though. There are things they can't pick up. Especially once more units are tier 3. Still, without doing questionable things they aren't perfect offensively either, and are never clutch like Nolan is in early part 1. In 1-5, there are still ledges, so that helps since Nolan can have a C support here, maybe B Edward if a person wants to give themselves a headache in 1-4 and pull it off in 9 or 10 turns. So he likely does more damage and faces smaller hit rates than most units while standing on the ledge, and aside from the mages I think he's 3HKOd. Actually, I think even mages. Basically, he does the best up there on that ledge.

1-6 he's still doing okay, though he's starting to face the issue of better units. Zihark, Tauroneo, Volug. Even Jill with a forged axe on anything with <= 11 speed. Nolan likely doesn't have 15 speed yet. In 1-7 he faces the issue most have here, the LEA are key in rushing the chapter. 1-8 he's not good for facing the mages in the east, but can help a bit on the way there. 1-E I don't think is that good for him, not sure though. 4-P/1/2 he definitely loses to the hawks. In 4-P he can double most things in tier 2, but that sends him to the desert. 4-1/2 he needs 28 speed for a fair amount. Although, a hammer in 4-1 only needs 26 speed for most enemies. He can do fairly well offensively, and with the right supports can do fine defensively, too.

I guess he's got enough issues relative to the hawks that I could see him go either way.

So maybe:

Gatrie

Mia

Nailah

Zihark

Janaff

Ulki

Nolan

Could work, too.

Yeah,I had originally said that Nailah could be the divider between the GM's and DB,and I'm fairly neutral on Hawks vs. Nolan.Maybe we could but him between them,like gatrie was for a while?

[Florete]

I'm not quite sure on Nailah > Zihark though. Zihark may have some competition (including Nailah herself) in part 1, but he's still pretty good. And then is he's built a good support (like Nolan, Volug, or Jill) he can still be average at worst in part 3, but likely some positive. He hits the same problem in part 4 as other DB units unless he went to Ike's team in part 3, but he should catch up fairly quickly. Nailah is generally better when she's around (Endgame is arguable) but Zihark is around more often, so that one's still up in the air.

[Ether]

I'm not quite sure on Nailah > Zihark though. Zihark may have some competition (including Nailah herself) in part 1, but he's still pretty good. And then is he's built a good support (like Nolan, Volug, or Jill) he can still be average at worst in part 3, but likely some positive. He hits the same problem in part 4 as other DB units unless he went to Ike's team in part 3, but he should catch up fairly quickly. Nailah is generally better when she's around (Endgame is arguable) but Zihark is around more often, so that one's still up in the air.

Hmm...that's true.

Zihark's an oddball.he either has good offense,or good durability,but almost never both at the same time.I guess it depends on how quick he picks up in part 4.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not quite sure on Nailah > Zihark though. Zihark may have some competition (including Nailah herself) in part 1, but he's still pretty good. And then is he's built a good support (like Nolan, Volug, or Jill) he can still be average at worst in part 3, but likely some positive. He hits the same problem in part 4 as other DB units unless he went to Ike's team in part 3, but he should catch up fairly quickly. Nailah is generally better when she's around (Endgame is arguable) but Zihark is around more often, so that one's still up in the air.

Well, I guess it depends on the value of Zihark's 1-6, 1-7, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13. Really, Nailah is smoking him for their entire shared existence. The only time it starts evening out is 4-E-4. Except even then, Nailah is ORKOing all the spirits except a Fire spirit on a cover tile. And she only misses that by 2 hp. If she has a C level fire/water/dark support, they die too. Zihark isn't even ORKOing thunder/wind on a cover tile unless he has 32 strength, or 30 str and a A level fire/water/dark support.

He's got 2 range, but Alondite is only 18 mt. He doesn't do all that much to dragons on enemy phase, though I suppose it's enough for some units to KO. 2 range isn't the end all be all. Not when she has lots more mt. She one rounds everything in 4-E-2, and he can't. Well, she doesn't ORKO the generals, but oh well. 50 to 52 hp and 30 to 32 def. That's generals in 4-E. She does anywhere from 48 to 44 damage to them, leaving them with 2 to 8 hp. Sothe can finish off a general with the baselard and 22 str at this point. A 3HKO requires at least 47 mt for the weakest, or 50 mt for the strongest. He'd need 30 str for the weakest to be able to 3HKO with a forge.

So I'm going to calc his chance of killing with Adept, and his Mastery, and a max mt/max crit silver forge. On the 8 guys he can actually 3HKO in 4-E-1. And he's somehow massively overleveled considering it's 4-E-1 and he needs 20/15 or 20/16 for it. Even with a reasonable amount of bexping, he's needing 20/12 just to have a chance at 30 str. That's 2 levels of bexp back in tier 2, anything more is likely too costly. Three levels of bexping means around 20/10 for 30 str. And that's only 8/30 of the starting generals. 31 str means 20/13 to 20/15 with that bexping.

Anyway:

20/10: 38 skl, 38 spd.

19 + 20 + 15 = 54 crit. 26 cev for the ones he 3HKOs. So 28% crit.

38% adept.

19% astra.

Needs either adept or astra or crit.

Attacks twice.

1-(.81 x .62 x .72)^2

86.9% chance of killing.

So that's good and all, but against all the others he's 4HKOing so adept is less helpful. Or he can grab the vague katti and 30str is enough to 3HKO them all, but then he has less crit.

Nailah:

46 skill, 38 spd.

46% savage, 38% adept.

Attacks twice, needs either adept or savage.

1 - (.54 x .62)^2

88.8%

And when they don't proc anything, Nailah does more damage. That's 8 of the 30. They are about even. As for the other 22:

Zihark with Adept and Vague Katti:

needs astra or crit or adept.

Nailah: Still 88.8% with adept.

Zihark has:

19 + 20 + 5 = 44 crit. 26 cev for these, too, though 10 out of 22 have 27 or 28. So 18% crit.

19% astra.

38% adept.

Needs either crit or astra or adept.

Attacks twice.

1-(.81 x .62 x .82)^2

83% chance of killing.

That's probably better than him with a forge needing a crit and adept not killing.

So for a forge, that's killing with 2 adepts, needing a crit or astra with one adept or zero adepts. (19% astra, 28% crit)

two adepts: .38 x .38 = .1444

one adept: 1 - .6156 - .1444 = .24

No adepts: 1-(.62 x .62) = .6156

Death with two adepts, so .1444 of death.

Three shots at killing if one adept. so .24 x (1 - (.81 x .72)^3) = .24 x .80164 = .1924

Two shots at killing if no adept. so .6156 x (1 - (.81 x .72)^2) = .6156 x ~.66 = .40622

Add them up, and it's: .743. Or 74.3% chance. On average, 3 out of 4 die. Per combat, 25.7% chance of not killing. More than double Nailah's chance of not killing (which was 11.2%).

Just a note, adept only took him from 66% to 74.3% here. Or it could be said that it cut the not-killing chance from 34% down to 25.7%. So when adept alone doesn't do it, it only reduces the chance of not killing by about a quarter. He had an 86.9% chance of killing when he had adept and 3HKOd. So only a 13.1% chance of leaving things alive. Note that this is taking the chance of not killing from 34% down to 13.1%, almost reducing it by two thirds. There is a huge motivation to give adept to someone that 3HKOs rather than 4HKOs, based on the difference in not-killing chance reduction.

Probably better to just give him the Vague Katti, if nobody else wants it.

Taking Vague Katti from Mia, but oh well. She can probably grab a critforge and 3HKO them all if she maxed str since she gets +mt in her support and has 50 mt with a forge. Then she can have the massive proc rate.

For all those other enemies in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 Nailah ORKOs 100% and Zihark doesn't. Now, he can take that same crit forge, take Adept (though others use it about evenly anyway) and get a massive proc rate. But he's still not 100%.

Still, point is, Nailah one rounds things he doesn't in 4-1, 4-4, 4-E-2, 4-E-4. Still has savage in 4-E-3. Does more damage in 4-E-5, especially if she pulled str in one or more bexp levels. Might not double without Nasir, though. Still, short chapter.

Don't forget, though, he's mostly counting on that adept to cut down on his chance of not killing. On worst bio, Nailah still does more damage, still has 36% savage and 28% adept, but Zihark now has 9% astra and 28% adept. His crit won't drop, but his crit is only 18% on the majority of generals anyway. In fact, it's 16% or 17% on 10 of them. He can nab a critforge to get 28% on 8 of them, 18% on 12 of them with vague katti, and 16% or 17% on the remaining 10. Basically, worst hurts him more than her, and lasts longer too.

On best, his astra goes up to 29%, Adept up to 48%. Her savage goes up to 56%, and Adept to 48%.

Another issue is those generals on the cover tiles in the north east and west. They are probably the higher leveled ones with 31 def. They effectively have 41 def and 51 hp. Nailah with Savage still obliterates. Zihark with Vague Katti and 30 str does 9 damage and 6HKOs. An astra alone barely does it (5 hits with Astra, plus the one from his doubling). The 32 def ones actually only take 8 damage and are 7HKOd and astra does not do it. As for the 6HKOd ones, he needs two crits if he doesn't astra, or he needs a crit and two adepts. (3 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6). Either way, on the 32 def ones he needs 2 crits and an adept. Or an astra and a crit, or an astra and an adept.

Anyway, given how many combinations, I'm not going to calculate it, but every time he needs two things instead of just one, it is a lot harder to pull it off. So he's got a rather low shot of killing them on cover tiles.

Nailah still has her savage, and since it triples strength, and she has 34, she OHKOs. With 54 mt, she does 12 damage to 32 def ones, so an adept at least gets her 36 damage. She can't use adept to kill, but can use it to boost her chance of getting another savage. Basically, she trounces him for the cover tile generals. And since those generals don't move, she can just walk up to them, stand in the middle (assuming the boss has moved or is dead) and it doesn't matter that they have 2 range. They'll just attack and face being savaged.

Another thing, I gave Zihark a huge level at this point. He's likely ending part 3 around level 15 or something. He needs to get 16 levels in 2 maps in part 4 in order to pull off this kind of strength. Otherwise, his killing ability takes a nosedive since adept will no longer get him a kill and only means a slightly higher chance of pulling off a crit or astra. He should still 4HKO, but take level 20/6 for example. 26.7 strength. So boosting a bit from bexp help is 28 str. 48 mt with vague katti. Those 32 def generals are 4HKOd now, and so giving him adept is less desirable than giving it to someone else. And so without adept his chances of killing those 30/31 def generals drops. If we give him adept anyway, he's still getting good rates on most generals (~81% with 36skl/spd, compared to Nailah's 88.8%), but his rate really drops on the 32 def ones. And he now does 7 damage or 6 damage to the ones on cover tiles, so he is 8HKOing or 9HKOing. Really hurts his KO chances on them.

Just saying, Nailah beats him offensively his entire existence, except 4-E-5. And only if Nailah never got spd. If she did, she beats him offensively there, too.

Well, thanks to wyrmslayers he might win a bit in 4-E-3. At least she can still OHKO with savage, though, so she isn't doing so bad.

I did a thing before on Zihark in his other chapters. He's second best against the mages around the boss, since Sothe has a forged iron knife and similar #RKO totals against mages. Either one can use the pure water to make things safer. Either one can be criticalled, but Sothe could stand next to Micaiah and face 0% crit from thunder. Plus I'm not 100% sure there is a thunder mage on that side. Plus, Sothe faces like 2% chance, Zihark faces 6%. I say second best since Tormod is too far, Vika might be good though. Nailah is busy on the west. In 1-E, he's very vulnerable given how so much two or three rounds him and a C support isn't likely keeping him safe. Zihark shines brightest in 1-6, but still gets eclipsed by Tauroneo. In 3-6, he has a B support, likely no resolve, and standing him on thickets means we need more than 3 units to hold the lines. And the laguz would have more move.

A Zihark x Volug support should have A for 3-12, so he's likely pretty nice there, though he'll still be facing 2HKOs for the most part, just facing less it. Then comes 3-13, with no thickets, effectively the same avo since enemy hit went up by 15. He's still rather vulnerable. Seriously, almost anybody can be 2HKOd or better, and they won't randomly blick things. Well, not as frequently, anyway. I'm not saying he's exactly negative, but he's also our 4th string ranged unit. Micaiah, Laura (w/ forged light), Leo. If Nolan isn't walling, bowgun w/beastfoe and Zihark is #5. Leo can even randomly blick something if we get him injured and use wrath. Micaiah has the same thing going on, though with using staves to heal people she'll self heal after turns in which she doesn't attack if we don't trade to get her to equip a weapon. If he's a positive here, it isn't enough to counteract Nailah schooling him every time they are both available. 1-6 alone isn't enough, and 1-7 he plays a minor role. He's also like #5 guy behind Sothe, Tormod, Vika, and Muarim. ( <- not in any particular order.)

Edited August 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Sorry for the triple post.

Edited August 22, 2009 by kirsche

[Zkirsche]

Sorry for the triple post.

Edited August 22, 2009 by kirsche

[Zkirsche]

Gatrie

Mia

Nailah

Zihark

Janaff

Ulki

Nolan

This makes the most sense IMO, after seeing most of the facts.

[Narga_Rocks]

math mistake:

38 skill/38 speed. 4HKOing with a critforge.

So for a forge, that's killing with 2 adepts, needing a crit or astra with one adept or zero adepts. (19% astra, 28% crit)

two adepts: .38 x .38 = .1444

one adept: 1 - .6156 - .1444 = .24

No adepts: 1-(.62 x .62) = .6156

one adept: 1 - .3844 - .1444 = .4712

No adepts: (.62 x .62) = .3844

Death with two adepts, so .1444 of death.

Three shots at killing if one adept. so .4712 x (1 - (.81 x .72)^3) = .4712 x .80164 = .377732768

Two shots at killing if no adept. so .3844 x (1 - (.81 x .72)^2) = .3844 x ~.66 = .2537

Add them up, and it's: .7758. Or 77.58% chance. On average, a little over 3 out of 4 die. Per combat, 22.42% chance of not killing. About double Nailah's chance of not killing (which was 11.2%).

Just a note, adept only took him from 66% to 77.58% here. Or it could be said that it cut the not-killing chance from 34% down to 22.42%. So when adept alone doesn't do it, it only reduces the chance of not killing by about a third. He had an 86.9% chance of killing when he had adept and 3HKOd. So only a 13.1% chance of leaving things alive. Note that this is taking the chance of not killing from 34% down to 13.1%, almost reducing it by two thirds. There is still a huge motivation to give adept to someone that 3HKOs rather than 4HKOs, based on the difference in not-killing chance reduction.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Btw, I think Mia has a chance against gatrie. I mean, they're practically the same until 4-E when Gatrie stops doubling consistently and even before then, Gatrie doesn't double SM's, unlike Mia. Mia also has 1 more mov than Gatrie, for what it counts.

[Interceptor]

I neglected to say so, but I am basically in agreement with kirsche's High tier order. I didn't expect Nailah to be moved up so high, but I can't really argue with the logic as has been laid out.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Interceptor

[Ether]

Btw, I think Mia has a chance against gatrie. I mean, they're practically the same until 4-E when Gatrie stops doubling consistently and even before then, Gatrie doesn't double SM's, unlike Mia. Mia also has 1 more mov than Gatrie, for what it counts.

Okay,let's see if we can start something here.

For 3-P and 3-1,Gatrie is more durable,while Mia has better offense from doubling/PROC's,they are pretty even here,since lowish enemy density and an incentive to rush 3-1 accents Mia's offense lead,but probably not by enough to pull an actual win.

For 3-2 and 3-3,Mia will have hit her C support,and her durability is starting to catch up to Gatrie,while access to forges solidifies her offense lead.

In the 3-4 base,Gatrie gets his precious crown.So Gatrie starts doubling anything that isn't a swordmaster,So,offensively,Gatrie wins by whatever chance Mia doesn't kill(and with ~30 Adept and ~ 40 Crit,her chance to kill is pretty good).

However,in 3-4,Gatrie's generalness is a problem,as ledges really slow him down,and he doesn't want to take the long way,so Mia wins this chapter as well.

Gatrie wins 3-5 for his tankiness,but Mia can help end the chapter quicker if she wants to.(Who is the one person on the team that doubles Lombroso's 23 AS,guess what,it's not Gatrie)

By 3-7,I showed already that Mia is ORKOing quite a few enemies with a single BEXP level,and that her durability is lolAmazing by this point,so they essentially tie,right?

Wrong.You see,Gatrie is leveling really slowly,and enemy AS is steadily increasing.Right now,she only wins vs. swordmasters,but as the game goes on,Gatrie starts having issues doubling a lot of staple enemies,and since Mia has hit near invincibility by now,he has nothing on her by that point.

So it comes down to Gatrie's 3-5 vs. Mia's 3-2,3-3,3-4,and then 3-7 onward.

Mia > Gatrie.

[grandjackal]

To continue on with this, Gatrie in part 4 is not doubling much at all, for stated reasons. Mia absolutely smokes him pre-endgame. Post endgame, she has every right to any of the destructive swords she wants, while Gatrie basically has no call for any weapon. Wishblade he's pretty much garbage with once the spirits appear (isn't his resistance unstellar as well?), and he's not exactly destroying the auras. He'd need a brave lance to do that, and then we'd have to rely on his oh so stellar Skill and Luck...

[Interceptor]

Gatrie can use a Brave Axe in Endgame, there's no reason to deny it of him aside from the fact that better candidates for the Brave may also exist. That is not going to help his HIT issue, assuming that he has any (have not checked numbers), but +1 MT is +1 MT.

[Florete]

I'm gonna have a hard time seeing Mia > Gatrie. He's always more durable (invincible > whatever avoid Mia pulls off) and as long as he doubles (with the Crown and stuff) his offense will always be better as well, since 100% ORKO > 80% or whatever Mia pulls. Sure, she doubles a few more things, but don't forget promoted Gatrie also has Luna and access to Braves and stuff.

Oh, and he also has more reliable 1-2 range.

[Ether]

Gatrie can use a Brave Axe in Endgame, there's no reason to deny it of him aside from the fact that better candidates for the Brave may also exist. That is not going to help his HIT issue, assuming that he has any (have not checked numbers), but +1 MT is +1 MT.

He can function with a brave in endgame,but Mia is still outperforming him by quite a bit,it`s like a 6 Mt difference or something,and the Braves may have been used already,after all,they are only good for 20 enemies maximum.

[grandjackal]

Gatrie can use a Brave Axe in Endgame, there's no reason to deny it of him aside from the fact that better candidates for the Brave may also exist. That is not going to help his HIT issue, assuming that he has any (have not checked numbers), but +1 MT is +1 MT.

Bsae hit at 15/10=62+brave axe hit=142.

90 hp, -- atk, 35 AS, -- hit, 135 avo, 30 def, 30 res, -- crit, -- cev

Good luck with your 7 displayed hit.

7x Wind Spirit lvl 20 (Wind Tail)

38 hp, 39 atk, 30 AS, 176 hit, 90 avo, 20 def, 32 res, 0 crit, 30 cev

7x Fire Spirit lvl 20 (Fire Tail)

40 hp, 36 atk, 30 AS, 171 hit, 90 avo, 22 def, 30 res, 0 crit, 30 cev

7x Thunder Spirit lvl 20 (Thunder Tail)

38 hp, 36 atk, 28 AS, 165 hit, 86 avo, 20 def, 30 res, 0 crit, 30 cev

52-58 displayed hit.

2x Halb lvl 14 (Silver Lance)

50 hp, 41 atk, 28 AS, 164 hit, 81 avo, 27 def, 22 res, 20 crit, 25 cev

2x Halb lvl 14 (Stl Greatlance)

50 hp, 42 atk, 28 AS, 154 hit, 81 avo, 27 def, 22 res, 20 crit, 25 cev

1x Halb lvl 14 (Short Spear)

50 hp, 38 atk, 28 AS, 139 hit, 81 avo, 27 def, 22 res, 20 crit, 25 cev

2x Warrior lvl 14 (Silver Axe)

57 hp, 47 atk, 29 AS, 154 hit, 83 avo, 24 def, 15 res, 15 crit, 25 cev

1x Warrior lvl 14 (Stl Poleaxe)

57 hp, 48 atk, 29 AS, 144 hit, 83 avo, 24 def, 15 res, 15 crit, 25 cev

1x Warrior lvl 14 (Short Axe)

57 hp, 45 atk, 29 AS, 144 hit, 83 avo, 24 def, 15 res, 15 crit, 25 cev

2x SM lvl 14 (Silver Swd)

47 hp, 38 atk, 33 AS, 172 hit, 93 avo, 21.5 def, 19 res, 27 crit, 26 cev

1x SM lvl 14 (Stl Blade)

47 hp, 39 atk, 33 AS, 157 hit, 93 avo, 21.5 def, 19 res, 27 crit, 26 cev

1x SM lvl 14 (Wo Dao)

47 hp, 33 atk, 33 AS, 182 hit, 93 avo, 21.5 def, 19 res, 47 crit, 26 cev

1x Sniper lvl 13 (Silver Bow)

50 hp, 44 atk, 28 AS, 164 hit, 81 avo, 24 def, 19 res, 26 crit, 25 cev

5x Sniper lvl 14 (Silver Bow)

51 hp, 45 atk, 28 AS, 166 hit, 83 avo, 25 def, 20 res, 27 crit, 26 cev

These are 4-E-2 guys, and they got similar avoid to spirits. Swordmasters actually have more dodge, they reduce him into the damn 40s

So he's not QUITE functioning properly endgame with a brave axe. Though I did forget he can use it then, but seriously that's some bad hit rates.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

Gatrie can use a Brave Axe in Endgame, there's no reason to deny it of him aside from the fact that better candidates for the Brave may also exist. That is not going to help his HIT issue, assuming that he has any (have not checked numbers), but +1 MT is +1 MT.

Bsae hit at 15/10=62+brave axe hit=142.

90 hp, -- atk, 35 AS, -- hit, 135 avo, 30 def, 30 res, -- crit, -- cev

Good luck with your 7 displayed hit.

Because Auras are the only enemies that matter, not to mention even God tier Ike has hit issues against them.

For all the enemies that actually matter, Gatrie also has a +Hit affinity and access to all 3 Brave weapons, not just the Axe, for whatever he needs.

[grandjackal]

Gatrie can use a Brave Axe in Endgame, there's no reason to deny it of him aside from the fact that better candidates for the Brave may also exist. That is not going to help his HIT issue, assuming that he has any (have not checked numbers), but +1 MT is +1 MT.

Bsae hit at 15/10=62+brave axe hit=142.

90 hp, -- atk, 35 AS, -- hit, 135 avo, 30 def, 30 res, -- crit, -- cev

Good luck with your 7 displayed hit.

Because Auras are the only enemies that matter, not to mention even God tier Ike has hit issues against them.

For all the enemies that actually matter, Gatrie also has a +Hit affinity and access to all 3 Brave weapons, not just the Axe, for whatever he needs.

Readjusted my post to show more numbers, but with that accuracy he really shouldn't be allowed to hold onto it. Not even his boost helps much, he'd need his support to specifically boost accuracy to get enough of a difference out of it.

He's great in 4-E-1, where there are bishops and shitstorm speed generals (of which are the minority and are like reinforcements), but the buck stops there for him doubling.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

I'm gonna have a hard time seeing Mia > Gatrie. He's always more durable (invincible > whatever avoid Mia pulls off) and as long as he doubles (with the Crown and stuff) his offense will always be better as well, since 100% ORKO > 80% or whatever Mia pulls. Sure, she doubles a few more things, but don't forget promoted Gatrie also has Luna and access to Braves and stuff.

Oh, and he also has more reliable 1-2 range.

Mia`s avoid is so high in the mater stages of the game that she is nearly invincible.The fact that Gatrie still takes damage means that she has a good shot of being more durable than him,not to mention Vantage Blicks do happen,and will cut some of the attacks she faces

Mia starts seeing a lot of ORKO`s around 3-7 with a single level of BEXP,and at level 17,she will promote very soon after,and once she does,she one rounds everything for basically forever.

By part 4,Gatrie has trouble doubling a lot of things,and Luna doesn`t make up for it,as well,she has tempest blades by now,so she at least wins 1-2 range then,plus whenever the GM`s happen to get their hands on a storm sword.(Several can be stolen through the GM chapters,and one from the DB can be practically guaranteed if Z doesn`t end 3-6 with it equipped.

Not to mention Mia always has +1 move and less terrain penalties.

[Florete]

Readjusted my post to show more numbers, but with that accuracy he really shouldn't be allowed to hold onto it. Not even his boost helps much, he'd need his support to specifically boost accuracy to get enough of a difference out of it.

Someone like Boyd wouldn't mind the +Hit. Hell, if he goes Ike's route, he can support Rafiel for massive +Hit.

This is still only Endgame. We count it as 2 maps because it doesn't hold that much weight. Mia is obviously doing better here, but does it outweigh doing better for a lot of the rest of the game?

[Ether]

Readjusted my post to show more numbers, but with that accuracy he really shouldn't be allowed to hold onto it. Not even his boost helps much, he'd need his support to specifically boost accuracy to get enough of a difference out of it.

Someone like Boyd wouldn't mind the +Hit. Hell, if he goes Ike's route, he can support Rafiel for massive +Hit.

This is still only Endgame. We count it as 2 maps because it doesn't hold that much weight. Mia is obviously doing better here, but does it outweigh doing better for a lot of the rest of the game?

I don`t know how many times I have to say it,but Mia hits godmode status from 3-7 onward.After that,Gatrie doesn`t win anymore,and he loses all of part 4,not just endgame.

She also wins before Gatrie gets his crown.

It`s far from just winning endgame.