OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

Readjusted my post to show more numbers, but with that accuracy he really shouldn't be allowed to hold onto it. Not even his boost helps much, he'd need his support to specifically boost accuracy to get enough of a difference out of it.

Someone like Boyd wouldn't mind the +Hit. Hell, if he goes Ike's route, he can support Rafiel for massive +Hit.

This is still only Endgame. We count it as 2 maps because it doesn't hold that much weight. Mia is obviously doing better here, but does it outweigh doing better for a lot of the rest of the game?

Boyd's got like a 20 point lead in hit on Gat by then, he actually could go solo at that point. He could support anybody really. Rolf's good by then, they're fast. Also with the speed of which Raphael would build supports, especially with galdring (Don't you always say dancers are hard to support?), good luck with that.

On another note, 4-E-2? Not allowed to have the brave sword either. 35+9=44 Might, and since he's not doubling...

He cannot kill,at 14/10

2x Halb lvl 14 (Silver Lance)

50 hp, 41 atk, 28 AS, 164 hit, 81 avo, 27 def, 22 res, 20 crit, 25 cev

2x Halb lvl 14 (Stl Greatlance)

50 hp, 42 atk, 28 AS, 154 hit, 81 avo, 27 def, 22 res, 20 crit, 25 cev

1x Halb lvl 14 (Short Spear)

50 hp, 38 atk, 28 AS, 139 hit, 81 avo, 27 def, 22 res, 20 crit, 25 cev

2x Warrior lvl 14 (Silver Axe)

57 hp, 47 atk, 29 AS, 154 hit, 83 avo, 24 def, 15 res, 15 crit, 25 cev

1x Warrior lvl 14 (Stl Poleaxe)

57 hp, 48 atk, 29 AS, 144 hit, 83 avo, 24 def, 15 res, 15 crit, 25 cev

1x Warrior lvl 14 (Short Axe)

57 hp, 45 atk, 29 AS, 144 hit, 83 avo, 24 def, 15 res, 15 crit, 25 cev

2x SM lvl 14 (Silver Swd)

47 hp, 38 atk, 33 AS, 172 hit, 93 avo, 21.5 def, 19 res, 27 crit, 26 cev

1x SM lvl 14 (Stl Blade)

47 hp, 39 atk, 33 AS, 157 hit, 93 avo, 21.5 def, 19 res, 27 crit, 26 cev

1x SM lvl 14 (Wo Dao)

47 hp, 33 atk, 33 AS, 182 hit, 93 avo, 21.5 def, 19 res, 47 crit, 26 cev

1x Sniper lvl 13 (Silver Bow)

50 hp, 44 atk, 28 AS, 164 hit, 81 avo, 24 def, 19 res, 26 crit, 25 cev

5x Sniper lvl 14 (Silver Bow)

51 hp, 45 atk, 28 AS, 166 hit, 83 avo, 25 def, 20 res, 27 crit, 26 cev

3x Swd Gen lvl 15 (Silver Swd)

51 hp, 44 atk, 27 AS, 163 hit, 80.5 avo, 31 def, 24 res, 14 crit, 27 cev

With a Brave Sword.

[Interceptor]

I'm gonna have a hard time seeing Mia > Gatrie. He's always more durable (invincible > whatever avoid Mia pulls off) and as long as he doubles (with the Crown and stuff) his offense will always be better as well, since 100% ORKO > 80% or whatever Mia pulls. Sure, she doubles a few more things, but don't forget promoted Gatrie also has Luna and access to Braves and stuff.

Oh, and he also has more reliable 1-2 range.

Mia's concrete durability works somewhat to her advantage, since everyone thinks that they can kill her, don't realize that the chance is tiny, and swarm her on Enemy Phase. Gatrie's doubling is far from assured, as the Ulki/Janaff fans constantly asserted, so I'll repeat what I said: Mia starts kicking Gatrie's ass the moment that he starts failing to double.

Regarding 1-2, Gatrie winning the range game only happens when the range game matters the least. By the time that forges and masteries show up, she's already gorwn into her own and a Tempest is nearby. Come Endgame his performance with basically everything is inferior to Alondite WRT 2-range, and it's not like SKL-bombing Mia has accuracy problems.

He can function with a brave in endgame,but Mia is still outperforming him by quite a bit,it`s like a 6 Mt difference or something,and the Braves may have been used already,after all,they are only good for 20 enemies maximum.

I'm not suggesting that Gatrie beats Mia or even matches her in Endgame with a Brave, I'm just saying that you can't take Braves away from him in comparisons. Mia is trashing Gatrie in Endgame.

Bsae hit at 15/10=62+brave axe hit=142.

Please remember to include Gatrie's affinity and Ike's authority stars and +5 SKL from Blood Tide if you're going to be looking at Gatrie's HIT.

[grandjackal]

Bsae hit at 15/10=62+brave axe hit=142.

Please remember to include Gatrie's affinity and Ike's authority stars and +5 SKL from Blood Tide if you're going to be looking at Gatrie's HIT.

I would add Ike's stars, had the enemy not leadership of their own.

I would add Gatrie's affinity, but who's he supporting? +9 won't exactly help much, he'd need a specific support to get a +15 boost, of which he'd be like in the 60s-70s.

I would add Blood Tide, but I'm also not gonna stick a blood tider next to him forever.

Also, looking at those 4-E-2 numbers, he wouldn't exactly be killing with a brave axe either.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Zkirsche]

For 3-P and 3-1,Gatrie is more durable,while Mia has better offense from doubling/PROC's,they are pretty even here,since lowish enemy density and an incentive to rush 3-1 accents Mia's offense lead,but probably not by enough to pull an actual win.

Erm, this is false. Mia actually 3RKO's some enemies with a steel sword (generals + some halbs), but never ORKO's. Gatrie always 2RKO's unless he doubles a non-general (aka: mages). I think that beats whatever %chance that Mia has of activating adept/critting. Oh, and MIa practically tinks generals. No offensive lead in 3-P or 3-1, really.

[Interceptor]

I would add Ike's stars, had the enemy not leadership of their own.

Authority stars don't cancel each other out. The avoid on auras is taking Ashera's stars into account, so you have to take Ike's for the player units. This is the only logical way to do it.

I would add Gatrie's affinity, but who's he supporting? +9 won't exactly help much, he'd need a specific support to get a +15 boost, of which he'd be like in the 60s-70s.

+8 HIT is huge at certain point, and he gets that supporting anyone.

I would add Blood Tide, but I'm also not gonna stick a blood tider next to him forever.

If you're using a Brave to damage things, you're likely to be using a Blood Tide some portion of the time anyway, because of the +5 STR. Account for the possibility, or you've failed.

Also, looking at those 4-E-2 numbers, he wouldn't exactly be killing with a brave axe either.

It is, at the very least, two Luna chances.

[Ether]

For 3-P and 3-1,Gatrie is more durable,while Mia has better offense from doubling/PROC's,they are pretty even here,since lowish enemy density and an incentive to rush 3-1 accents Mia's offense lead,but probably not by enough to pull an actual win.

Erm, this is false. Mia actually 3RKO's some enemies with a steel sword (generals + some halbs), but never ORKO's. Gatrie always 2RKO's unless he doubles a non-general (aka: mages). I think that beats whatever %chance that Mia has of activating adept/critting. Oh, and MIa practically tinks generals. No offensive lead in 3-P or 3-1, really.

Generals aren't a huge population of the enemies,and she wins against anything they both 2rko,which is most things.

[-Cynthia-]

Gatrie has better offense for 3-P and 3-1(remember Mia doesn't have Adept or a critforge, so her chances of killing are down by a lot) and beats Mia in durability pretty much forever.

Mia wins offense for 3-2 and 3-3, but once we give Gatrie the Crown, he's better as long as he's doubling, which should be everything except SMs. Yeah, Mia's crit/Adept are nice and all, but Gatrie is outright ORKOing most things, hell he can do it at 1-2 range a lot of the time.

Mia is a little better Part 4, but Gatrie does pretty well in 4-E. He ORKOs generals more than she does (Hammer or otherwise), has generally better performance against dragons (more durable, both double, he can use Wyrmslayer).

For the other 2 parts of 4-E, Gatrie can use a Brave. It really isn't an issue at all for Gatrie to use one, we only have to save one usage of any one of them. And those "hit issues" are great and all, but they didn't include supports (Gatrie's own affinity adds +Hit and he can easily find another Fire/Heaven/Light), plus extra Hit from Blood Tide, since he's not using Nasir he can use Gareth or Ena. I think Gatrie>Mia.

Edited August 24, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

I would add Ike's stars, had the enemy not leadership of their own.

Authority stars don't cancel each other out. The avoid on auras is taking Ashera's stars into account, so you have to take Ike's for the player units. This is the only logical way to do it.

I would add Gatrie's affinity, but who's he supporting? +9 won't exactly help much, he'd need a specific support to get a +15 boost, of which he'd be like in the 60s-70s.

+8 HIT is huge at certain point, and he gets that supporting anyone.

I would add Blood Tide, but I'm also not gonna stick a blood tider next to him forever.

If you're using a Brave to damage things, you're likely to be using a Blood Tide some portion of the time anyway, because of the +5 STR. Account for the possibility, or you've failed.

Also, looking at those 4-E-2 numbers, he wouldn't exactly be killing with a brave axe either.

It is, at the very least, two Luna chances.

1. Was unaware of that.

2. Again, it's only getting him like the 60s and 70s, I still would be sweating bullets.

3. Fine, he needs blood tide to kill things, the end.

4. Well there is that, but we could give Mia the brave sword for 4 chances (possibly even 8 if we count adept) at Astra

@Cynthia-To clear up the so called "good in endgame" deal, he's great in 4-E-1 and 4-E-3, but other parts he sort of falters. A. he's not doubling (not even a speedwing can save him, thanks to 31 cap), B. he's not killing with even brave weapons, C. His accuracy isn't exactly perfect. Basically you need a blood tide glued onto him. Otherwise there is that.

Not sayng Mia over Gatrie, but she does have a better call on endgame, possibly part 4.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

Gatrie has better offense for 3-P and 3-1 and beats Mia in durability pretty much forever.

Mia wins offense for 3-2 and 3-3, but once we give Gatrie the Crown, he's better as long as he's doubling, which should be everything except SMs. Yeah, Mia's crit/Adept are nice and all, but Gatrie is outright ORKOing most things, hell he can do it at 1-2 range a lot of the time.

Mia is a little better Part 4, but Gatrie does pretty well in 4-E. He ORKOs generals more than she does (Hammer or otherwise), has generally better performance against dragons (more durable, both double, he can use Wyrmslayer).

For the other 2 parts of 4-E, Gatrie can use a Brave. It really isn't an issue at all for Gatrie to use one, we only have to save one usage of any one of them. And those "hit issues" are great and all, but they didn't include supports (Gatrie's own affinity adds +Hit and he can easily find another Fire/Heaven/Light), plus extra Hit from Blood Tide, since he's not using Nasir he can use Gareth or Ena. I think Gatrie>Mia.

Again,I say this.By the time Mia builds her support,she is insanely durable.Gatrie loses his durability lead by somewhere around 3-5.

Gatrie gets his crown for 3-4 and 3-5 before Mia starts ORKOing most things as well.By then it's better vs. generals vs. better vs. Sm's,and even Rolf can be doubling some generals by this point,so her SM killing is more valuable.(Plus she 3HKO's generals,hello massive PROC rates).In 3-4,being an armor sucks,so Mia wins this chapter despite gatrie's crown.

And if Gatrie doesn't get a brave for endgame,he's out of luck,and considering the very nature of a brave weapon,you can easily run out of uses unexpectedly.

[Interceptor]

Mia certainly has access to Adept in 3-P and 3-1. You have a base in those chapters, just not forge/shops.

Also, I will reiterate what I said earlier: if Gatrie had Mia's SPD, this would be a blowout, but he does not, in fact, have the SPD of a Swordmaster. A crown puts him at 25 after he caps SPD in tier 2, but before long it starts being insufficient, and his 31 SPD cap exists in tier 3 as another ceiling.

And again, Mia is +1 MV over him and you can shove her around like a five-year old, as everyone except Sanaki has enough con for the job. You need to be a bulldozer to accomplish the same thing for Gatrie. This is important because it gives her more opportunities to use her offense. Theoretical offense is all well and good until the rubber hits the road and you actually have to apply it on enemy faces.

[Zkirsche]

Again,I say this.By the time Mia builds her support,she is insanely durable.Gatrie loses his durability lead by somewhere around 3-5.

Let's not copy Robo KY and hype everything beyond realism now, Ether. Crowned Gatrie can't be killed. The end. What's better than not being killed... nothing. They tie, at the very most. If Mia gets unlucky once, she's in danger of dying, Gatrie can at least take a few hits.

he can use Wyrmslayer

Mia can as well, remember.

To clear things up about hit rates, a 14/17 Gatrie has 193-195 with a +hit support with the brave axe and a blood tide. Against auras, he has 58-60 Displayed or 65-68 real. His chance of missing an attack >50%. Still, there's no way Gatrie > Mia in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 as Mia with Alondite has more Atk than Gatrie with a brave axe does.

Let's not forget, as Int rightly showed us, Mia faces greater enemy phase action due to less def.

Mia certainly has access to Adept in 3-P and 3-1. You have a base in those chapters, just not forge/shops.

I didn't see anyone denying her adept.

Edited August 24, 2009 by kirsche

[Narga_Rocks]

I didn't see anyone denying her adept.

-Cynthia- did. (for 3-P and 3-1 only) Likely assumed since there is no shop there is no access to manage -> skills.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

I didn't see anyone denying her adept.

Cynthia said that "Mia doesn't have Adept or a critforge" WRT to 3-P and 3-1, which is only half-right.

EDIT: curses, foiled again. Moriarty!

Edited August 24, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

Let's not copy Robo KY and hype everything beyond realism now, Ether. Crowned Gatrie can't be killed. The end. What's better than not being killed... nothing. They tie, at the very most. If Mia gets unlucky once, she's in danger of dying, Gatrie can at least take a few hits.

You'll see me hyping solid durability before you see me hype avoid, good sir.

[-Cynthia-]

Mia can as well, remember.

Yes, but Gatrie has more Atk and defense(Mia faces some higher hit rates here due to Degh's authority).

To clear things up about hit rates, a 14/17 Gatrie has 193-195 with a +hit support with the brave axe and a blood tide. Against auras, he has 58-60 Displayed or 65-68 real. His chance of missing an attack >50%. Still, there's no way Gatrie > Mia in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 as Mia with Alondite has more Atk than Gatrie with a brave axe does.

I wouldn't say he's better, but the gap isn't very large. BTW if Gatrie doesn't like his hit with the Brave Axe, there's the Lance and Sword to consider as well.

Let's not forget, as Int rightly showed us, Mia faces greater enemy phase action due to less def.

This isn't always a good thing, especially when Mia doesn't have 1-2 ranged equipped, which is a large % of the time.

Mia certainly has access to Adept in 3-P and 3-1. You have a base in those chapters, just not forge/shops.

Oops. It still isn't as effective though, since Mia is having some 3HKO issues with no support and a basic Steel Sword.

Edited August 24, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Mekkah]

And again, Mia is +1 MV over him and you can shove her around like a five-year old, as everyone except Sanaki has enough con for the job. You need to be a bulldozer to accomplish the same thing for Gatrie. This is important because it gives her more opportunities to use her offense. Theoretical offense is all well and good until the rubber hits the road and you actually have to apply it on enemy faces.

To be fair to Gatrie, this means he can also shove a lot more other people than Mia can.

[Zkirsche]

Yes, but Gatrie has more Atk and defense(Mia faces some higher hit rates here due to Degh's authority).

I know, you sort of made it sound like Gatrie has access to wrym's and Mia doesn't, which would be a massive advantage for Mia. Remember that Mia also has higher crit/adept/vantage/Astra to help with her durability.

wouldn't say he's better, but the gap isn't very large.

Perhaps not large, but definitely considerable. It's a good chance of dealing only 12 damage vs a good chance of dealing 30 damage. Considering one 3RKO's and the other 9RKO's, that's pretty impressive.

BTW if Gatrie doesn't like his hit with the Brave Axe, there's the Lance and Sword to consider as well.

Your not getting 100% hit rates with any brave.

This isn't always a good thing, especially when Mia doesn't have 1-2 ranged equipped, which is a large % of the time.

Considering her durability, yes, yes it is. It's not liek 100% of the enemies are 1-2 range, anyway.

Edited August 24, 2009 by kirsche

[Ether]

Again,I say this.By the time Mia builds her support,she is insanely durable.Gatrie loses his durability lead by somewhere around 3-5.

Let's not copy Robo KY and hype everything beyond realism now, Ether. Crowned Gatrie can't be killed. The end. What's better than not being killed... nothing. They tie, at the very most. If Mia gets unlucky once, she's in danger of dying, Gatrie can at least take a few hits.

he can use Wyrmslayer

Mia can as well, remember.

To clear things up about hit rates, a 14/17 Gatrie has 193-195 with a +hit support with the brave axe and a blood tide. Against auras, he has 58-60 Displayed or 65-68 real. His chance of missing an attack >50%. Still, there's no way Gatrie > Mia in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 as Mia with Alondite has more Atk than Gatrie with a brave axe does.

Let's not forget, as Int rightly showed us, Mia faces greater enemy phase action due to less def.

Mia certainly has access to Adept in 3-P and 3-1. You have a base in those chapters, just not forge/shops.

I didn't see anyone denying her adept.

I didn't say that she is winning durability,but she ties him pretty quickly.

[Zkirsche]

On a completely different note, why is Leanne > Mia when Mia crushes Leanne in availability by so much?

Edited August 24, 2009 by kirsche

[Interceptor]

Yes, but Gatrie has more Atk and defense(Mia faces some higher hit rates here due to Degh's authority).

Mia's crit lead over Gatrie can only be called obscene. Not only does he lack class crit (instant 20 crit deficit), but her SKL is always ahead of his by 5-10 (or more with an early crown on his part). Adding insult to injury is that she's still better with him using Adept, even when they are both doubling. What difference does an ATK lead matter? He's only 5 STR ahead of her to begin with, which is 3mt unless he supported ATK, and he doesn't even get a weapon type leg-up unless he's gives up the prospect of a Wyrmslayer to use a WB or something.

WRT durability, so many people are getting 3HKO'ed or worse on this chapter that the best strategy simply becomes to stop caring about non-fatal damage and top people off with Fortify. Mia is not getting past 2HKO'ed naturally, but she can still sit on a Cover to guarantee two Red Enemy Phase attacks regardless of avoid, and Pure Water plus Wardwood approximates the same thing on Whites.

This isn't always a good thing, especially when Mia doesn't have 1-2 ranged equipped, which is a large % of the time.

Please detail to me a scenario where fighting at 2-range prior to masteries/forges is a good idea. Even STR-gods like Haar or Titania can slip to a 3RKO with 1-2 range weapons, and your army is not even full of people like this. Giving your army the ability to always have a reply on Enemy Phase is not always a good strategy, since 1) you can target those 2-range people on Player Phase and 2) if you obliterate the 1-range guys on Enemy Phase you can clean up the no-counters on the following phase.

The fact of the matter is that forges in this game make 1-range offense on Enemy Phase a really good idea most of the time. This gets flipped on its head later in the game, especially in Part 4, but by now Mia actually has a good 1-2 option.

Oops. It still isn't as effective though, since Mia is having some 3HKO issues with no support and a basic Steel Sword.

It's generally more effective than a straight 2RKO, which is what Gatrie is doing unless he's using a Killer. Even on something that Mia whiffs 3HKO on, she still has a chance to ORKO because of 1) crits, 2) double Adept, and even when THOSE two fail, the enemy has so little HP left after a single Adept that Rolf or Mist or someone might be able to finish the curbstomp. Options are good, here.

EDIT: @Mekkah, sure Gatrie can shove more people, but I have a peanut gallery full of decent shovers that might not even be taking a kill. AKA, Kyza with Halfshift or something.

I should point out an exmaple where this is actually useful: in 3-3, with tons of thickets. You can save Mia 2 points of MV if you shove her through a terrain obstacle, which comes in handy in places you might not expect.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Interceptor

[-Cynthia-]

On a completely different note, why is Leanne > Mia when Mia crushes Leanne in availability by so much?

Lots of people crush Leanne in availability, but this list favors herons a lot.

@above 1-2 range is useful against enemies that have 2 range or 1-2 range obviously, like againt a group of mages. Post Crown Gatrie has so much Str that there's a decent amount he can ORKO with a Hand Axe (not to mention Short Axe/Tomahawk/Short Spear etc.), so this is better than what Mia can do on the Enemy Phase.

Edited August 24, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Ether]

On a completely different note, why is Leanne > Mia when Mia crushes Leanne in availability by so much?

Lots of people crush Leanne in availability, but this list favors herons a lot.

@above 1-2 range is useful against enemies that have 2 range or 1-2 range obviously, like againt a group of mages. Post Crown Gatrie has so much Str that there's a decent amount he can ORKO with a Hand Axe (not to mention Short Axe/Tomahawk/Short Spear etc.), so this is better than what Mia can do on the Enemy Phase.

But looking at 3-7,Mia can one round mages with her storm sword,as well as some Snipers with that same BEXP level,and again,she is close to promotion,which nets her +4 Mt adding in the levels she gains beforehand.

Heck,if they are a real majority,she one rounds mages with a wind edge.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Ether

[-Cynthia-]

But looking at 3-7,Mia can one round mages with her storm sword,as well as some Snipers with that same BEXP level,and again,she is close to promotion,which nets her +4 Mt adding in the levels she gains beforehand.

Mia isn't entitled to any pre 3-11 Storm Sowrds, mainly because Ike would like them as well. It doesn't apply as much for Gatrie, since there are a lot more ranged javelins/axes available.

Personal experience and all, but I don't have Mia promoting around 3-7 in HM, more like 3-11 or 3-E, and I don't use that many GMs.

Edited August 24, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

@above 1-2 range is useful against enemies that have 2 range or 1-2 range obviously, like againt a group of mages. Post Crown Gatrie has so much Str that there's a decent amount he can ORKO with a Hand Axe (not to mention Short Axe/Tomahawk/Short Spear etc.), so this is better than what Mia can do on the Enemy Phase.

Alright, so this is my reply by bullet point:

- where do you fight mages in groups? High densities of 1-2 or 2-range units are not common, in my experience, until you reach places like 4-3 and get Sniper-bombed. These units exist, naturally, but fighting them effectively on Enemy Phase means:

- everyone in range has to be using 1-2 range. Otherwise, those enemies will just focus on the ones that don't, since they will not counter. Now your 1-2 range is only as good as your weakest link, because Gatrie's ability to OHKO with 1-2 is only a boon when he's the "best" target to be attacked.

- for non-gods, aka the rest of your army not named Crowned Gatrie, aka people with more than 6MV that will be ahead if not at least very close to Gatrie geography-wise, early 1-2 range weapons lack mt or HIT or both. We have not reached the point where we can forge a high-HIT Hand Axe with as much mt as a Steel Greatlance, nor have we reached the point where people have mastery skills (Impale = dead even if you're using a javelin).

So for those reasons, even though Gatrie has more reliable 1-2 earlygame, my argument is that he wins when it doesn't matter so much. Naturally he loses 1-2 as soon as Mia discovers Tempests and Alondite, but this is when 1-2 range actually might matter.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Interceptor

[Ether]

But looking at 3-7,Mia can one round mages with her storm sword,as well as some Snipers with that same BEXP level,and again,she is close to promotion,which nets her +4 Mt adding in the levels she gains beforehand.

Mia isn't entitled to any pre 3-11 Storm Sowrds, mainly because Ike would like them as well. It doesn't apply as much for Gatrie, since there are a lot more ranged javelins/axes available.

Personal experience and all, but I don't have Mia promoting around 3-7 in HM, more like 3-11 or 3-E, and I don't use that many GMs.

I never said she was promoted by now,I have her at level 16 + 1 level of BEXP,so she is promoting around 3-10/3-11