OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

I actually have data on the likelihood of cards. One of the few good things my Prima guide did. Here's what it gives:

Sword (+1 MT): 15%

Axe (+2 MT): 10%

Dual Sword (+3 MT): 2%

Arrow (+10 HIT): 25%

Triple Arrow (+20 HIT): 4%

Feather (+5 Crit): 10%

Seraph Feather (+10 Crit): 2%

Soldier (+1 MT, +10 HIT): 3%

Knight (+1 MT, +5 Crit): 3%

Goddess (+1 MT, +10 HIT, +5 Crit): 1%

Raven (4 Coins): 5%

Vine (Nothing): 20%

EDIT: In order of likelihood

Arrow

Vine

Sword

Axe/Feather

Raven

Triple Arrow

Soldier/Knight

Dual Sword/Seraph Feather

Goddess

Ninja'd by a Ninji. Appropriate.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Wow. Thanks guys. I'll see if Vincent can put it on the site for more ease of use.

[Interceptor]

Ninja'd by a Ninji. Appropriate.

Karma for ninja'ing me earlier. I think what happens now is that I ninja Ninji, and then the circle is complete.

[_____]

Ninja'd by a Ninji. Appropriate.

:3

Karma for ninja'ing me earlier. I think what happens now is that I ninja Ninji, and then the circle is complete.

I'll make sure to never post here again.

[grandjackal]

Goddamn, ninjas everywhere...

EDIT: Robo Ky, please quote properly.

Grk! Dammit, I've been flubbing all day x.x To think I was gonna argue Eddie up...x.x

[Zkirsche]

Lol@Narga forcing people up with sheer walls of text.

Btw, If Rafiel is being sent to endgame, surely he's > Leanne? And what happened to the Haar > Ike > Reyson arguments?

[Florete]

Btw, If Rafiel is being sent to endgame, surely he's > Leanne?

Um, at Endgame in itself, I suppose. Then again, Leanne has Canto and an arguably better affinity, so the win wouldn't be very big at all.

And what happened to the Haar > Ike > Reyson arguments?

They ended. From what I recall, Interceptor was the only one still arguing it (Though he was only arguing Reyson down) and he gave up.

[Zkirsche]

Is Titania > Sothe? Sothe has thieving utility and is one of the best units in part 1 and decent in part 3. Titania is never really that good.

Um, at Endgame in itself, I suppose. Then again, Leanne has Canto and an arguably better affinity, so the win wouldn't be very big at all.

Rafiel is awesome against Degh + Ashera, though. Basically, I'm just asking for Leanne to be moved lower by comparing her to Rafiel.

They ended. From what I recall, Interceptor was the only one still arguing it (Though he was only arguing Reyson down) and he gave up.

I believe many people agreed with him, though.

[Florete]

Is Titania > Sothe? Sothe has thieving utility and is one of the best units in part 1 and decent in part 3. Titania is never really that good.

I need to look into Titania's performance again. I'm not sure if she should be > Mia and Gatrie since I seem to recall her having major doubling issues.

Rafiel is awesome against Degh + Ashera, though. Basically, I'm just asking for Leanne to be moved lower by comparing her to Rafiel.

I already suggested moving Leanne right below Gatrie, but Narga wasn't so sure.

I believe many people agreed with him, though.

Just agreeing isn't good enough. Tier lists aren't made on votes.

[grandjackal]

Crown, speed wing AND slow leveling all concoct her to pretty much have problems similar to Gatrie. Only problem is offensively I'd say she's worse as he'd have more Str. Basically put Gat on a horse, make him able to be killed, give him slower leveling speed, less strength. Bam, you got Titania.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

Crown, speed wing AND slow leveling all concoct her to pretty much have problems similar to Gatrie. Only problem is offensively I'd say she's worse as he'd have more Str. Basically put Gat on a horse, make him able to be killed, give him slower leveling speed, less strength. Bam, you got Titania.

Basically this.Titania can double,but it takes a wing and a crown(unless you want to level her normally to 20/1,where she will have 25 Spd,but that takes quite a while,and it may not be sufficient anymore.

With Titania vs. Gatrie,it all depends on who gets the first crown,they both need it to outdo the other.The second crown just doesn`t cut it for them,they`ll be too far gone.

Considering Crowned Gatrie > Crowned Titania,she should probably move below him at least.

[grandjackal]

I wanna say Danved over Sigrun, but I just checked their stats and it takes Danved a while to catch up, especially since she can just crown and become pretty hacks instantly. At least until part 4, where I'd say Danved is the winner.

[Narga_Rocks]

Crown, speed wing AND slow leveling all concoct her to pretty much have problems similar to Gatrie. Only problem is offensively I'd say she's worse as he'd have more Str. Basically put Gat on a horse, make him able to be killed, give him slower leveling speed, less strength. Bam, you got Titania.

Basically this.Titania can double,but it takes a wing and a crown(unless you want to level her normally to 20/1,where she will have 25 Spd,but that takes quite a while,and it may not be sufficient anymore.

With Titania vs. Gatrie,it all depends on who gets the first crown,they both need it to outdo the other.The second crown just doesn`t cut it for them,they`ll be too far gone.

Considering Crowned Gatrie > Crowned Titania,she should probably move below him at least.

With just a speedwing she does okay. I'm not sure how fast she'd level, but with just two levels and a wing she has 24 speed. Then 3 levels later she promotes naturally and has 27. Then she has less doubling issues in part 4 than Gatrie has. He has a better growth, but she probably has a higher level. It's all about her levels, though. If she has level 18 for 3-4 and level 20 for 3-10 then she does okay. Also, level 20/1 for 3-11. Plus I think she's got better skl/lck so she'll have less hit issues with braves and hammers and she eventually gets wyrmslayers, too. Just needs one sword level after promotion. And sol > Luna whenever you ORKO anyway, and Luna > Sol when you don't. It helps her durability a bit. Also there is the Oscar support. They match move and give Oscar more accuracy with short spears/spears/horseslayer/brave lance and a little more def to offset the avo difference between Oscar and Mia (with Ike). He misses out on mt, but matching move and move types I think balances that. Only problem is that comparing a 02 support with a 00 00 support is a pretty big deal, unlike 02 and 01. Still, matching move and both having canto does some to mitigate the speed of the support. She doesn't always double everything Gatrie does in part 3, but with 24 speed in 3-4 and 21 speed in 3-P and 23 speed in 3-2 with the wing she's doubling things he doesn't before he gets his crown and only misses out on 21 speed enemies until she gets 25 speed in 3-10, then misses out on 22 speed enemies until promotion but he might not have 26 speed yet anyway. Then in part 4 she likely starts with a higher speed and only has .1 less than his spd growth. She doesn't really need his crown, just a wing. Without it, she's not as good as him, but really, we have two wings, and she can get one for similar reasons he gets a crown and Mia gets Ike. The differences between her and Haar and other units may not be as large as the difference between crowning Gatrie and the rest or Mia w/ Adept and w/Ike and the rest with it, but it's still rather large.

Just saying she has her advantages. Also aside from 3-4, 3-7, 4-4, her horse is generally a blessing, not a curse. There are brief moments where it's not so great, but Titania moves through thickets better than Gatrie does anyway. Well, it costs both 3, but she has 9 to spend and he just has 6. Even 8 with celerity and she's still better.

And I'm good with Sothe > Leanne, since most of what she has going for her is part 2 and it's mostly counteracted by 1-2, 1-3, 1-4. Maybe not entirely, but Sothe's good in a few other chapters as well. And I could probably be convinced to drop her to above Nailah, I just need some convincing.

edit: fixed a typo

Edited August 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

While I'm too damn scared to debate Narga out of fear he will drop bombs again, I can at least say Gat and Ti are a bit more comparable than to have them that seperated.

So the question is who is more deserving of Nailah's company?

[Narga_Rocks]

While I'm too damn scared to debate Narga out of fear he will drop bombs again, I can at least say Gat and Ti are a bit more comparable than to have them that seperated.

So the question is who is more deserving of Nailah's company?

Sadly no bombs for at least 10 hours. Going somewhere. Besides, as far as Titania and Gatrie go, that's really all I have.

[grandjackal]

Then if I may pick apart your post then.

With just a speedwing she does okay. I'm not sure how fast she'd level, but with just two levels and a wing she has 24 speed.

She'd get 23 Speed out of that, of which was doubling in 3-P and 3-1, and we don't get the speed wing until 3-9. Considering by then, Gatrie would use it too to double as a tier 3 unit for basically all the way until endgame of which he wouldn't necessarily need to double anymore at that point? I'd consider him the winner. As for how she levels, she's a 20/16 Beorc, the highest level of your team. Not even Haar is that high. It's safe to say she is leveling painfully slow. Only person I could imagine leveling slower would be Shinon, due to his shitty melee.

He'd need 4 levels to get the same results, but considering that his leveling speed would be rathr exponential in comparison due to being 6 levels lower against these relatively low leveled enemies...

Then 3 levels later she promotes naturally and has 27. Then she has less doubling issues in part 4 than Gatrie has

Who with basically the same wing post crowning would get the same results, and it's an advantage for him since when he caps speed, he basically has no reason to not crown, thus saving us 5 levels of having to level him up. Until then, Titania's basically having problems, of which it's actually easier to solve for Gatrie. Due remember no wing until 3-9. By then, Gat's promoted, we'd have no reason not to wing him really.

He has a better growth, but she probably has a higher level. It's all about her levels, though. If she has level 18 for 3-4 and level 20 for 3-10 then she does okay.

2 levels in 5 chapters with low level enemies...I'd actually find that a tad hard to swallow with her.

Also, level 20/1 for 3-11. Plus I think she's got better skl/lck so she'll have less hit issues with braves and hammers and she eventually gets wyrmslayers, too. Just needs one sword level after promotion. And sol > Luna whenever you ORKO anyway, and Luna > Sol when you don't. It helps her durability a bit. Also there is the Oscar support. They match move and give Oscar more accuracy with short spears/spears/horseslayer/brave lance and a little more def to offset the avo difference between Oscar and Mia (with Ike).

Gatrie could get the same boosts due to same affinity, and mobility-wise is around more people that can boost hit (Boyd, Mia, Rolf).

As for Luna, it increases his durability as well. When he initiates an attack, when it activates he doesn't have to take a counter. Considering Luna's activation rate>Sol's...

He misses out on mt, but matching move and move types I think balances that. Only problem is that comparing a 02 support with a 00 00 support is a pretty big deal, unlike 02 and 01. Still, matching move and both having canto does some to mitigate the speed of the support.

This I pretty much can't argue. Best I could do is say he wants an offense boosting support, of which he could get from the speedy support of his brother Boyd, or perhaps from Ulki.

She doesn't always double everything Gatrie does in part 3, but with 24 speed in 3-4 and 21 speed in 3-P and 23 speed in 3-2 with the wing she's doubling things he doesn't before he gets his crown and only misses out on 21 speed enemies until she gets 25 speed in 3-10, then misses out on 22 speed enemies until promotion but he might not have 26 speed yet anyway.

This is implying we took a wing from the DB (and I know you will do everything in your power to do so), so that might not necessarily happen. The second one comes in 3-9, of which they both would have the same problem, but he would have greater offense with it and thus deserves it more.

Then in part 4 she likely starts with a higher speed and only has .1 less than his spd growth. She doesn't really need his crown, just a wing. Without it, she's not as good as him, but really, we have two wings, and she can get one for similar reasons he gets a crown and Mia gets Ike.

We have 1 wing, unless you're saying you for some reason brought Illyana to 1-E for the sole reason of stuffing that sucker down her pocket. On top of it, there are DB units that would like that wing as well, and they would have the advantage because Titania and Gatrie technically do not exist on their team. She does need a wing, but by the time one realistically appears, Gatrie can put it to better use. Priorities, priorities...

The differences between her and Haar and other units may not be as large as the difference between crowning Gatrie and the rest or Mia w/ Adept and w/Ike and the rest with it, but it's still rather large.

She needs a rather large amount of kills to get the levels she needs soon enough, or steal from a team that has their own right to use the wing which the GM would only get under rediculous circumstances. The GM do indeed need their own customization, but for Titania it all sounds rather expensive in comparison.

Just saying she has her advantages. Also aside from 3-4, 3-7, 4-4, her horse is generally a blessing, not a curse. There are brief moments where it's not so great, but Titania moves through thickets better than Gatrie does anyway. Well, it costs both 3, but she has 9 to spend and he just has 6. Even 8 with celerity and she's still better.

True, but ont he celerity bit, it would give Gatrie paladin-like movement. Gatrie is generally just an all around better unit, and now on the front like far more often. I'd be more prepared to give Celerity to Gatrie rather than Ti. This is saying that the one with top priority, Haar, doesn't have it anyways.

[Ether]

Crown, speed wing AND slow leveling all concoct her to pretty much have problems similar to Gatrie. Only problem is offensively I'd say she's worse as he'd have more Str. Basically put Gat on a horse, make him able to be killed, give him slower leveling speed, less strength. Bam, you got Titania.

Basically this.Titania can double,but it takes a wing and a crown(unless you want to level her normally to 20/1,where she will have 25 Spd,but that takes quite a while,and it may not be sufficient anymore.

With Titania vs. Gatrie,it all depends on who gets the first crown,they both need it to outdo the other.The second crown just doesn`t cut it for them,they`ll be too far gone.

Considering Crowned Gatrie > Crowned Titania,she should probably move below him at least.

With just a speedwing she does okay. I'm not sure how fast she'd level, but with just two levels and a wing she has 24 speed. Then 3 levels later she promotes naturally and has 27. Then she has less doubling issues in part 4 than Gatrie has. He has a better growth, but she probably has a higher level. It's all about her levels, though. If she has level 18 for 3-4 and level 20 for 3-10 then she does okay. Also, level 20/1 for 3-11. Plus I think she's got better skl/lck so she'll have less hit issues with braves and hammers and she eventually gets wyrmslayers, too. Just needs one sword level after promotion. And sol > Luna whenever you ORKO anyway, and Luna > Sol when you don't. It helps her durability a bit. Also there is the Oscar support. They match move and give Oscar more accuracy with short spears/spears/horseslayer/brave lance and a little more def to offset the avo difference between Oscar and Mia (with Ike). He misses out on mt, but matching move and move types I think balances that. Only problem is that comparing a 02 support with a 00 00 support is a pretty big deal, unlike 02 and 01. Still, matching move and both having canto does some to mitigate the speed of the support. She doesn't always double everything Gatrie does in part 3, but with 24 speed in 3-4 and 21 speed in 3-P and 23 speed in 3-2 with the wing she's doubling things he doesn't before he gets his crown and only misses out on 21 speed enemies until she gets 25 speed in 3-10, then misses out on 22 speed enemies until promotion but he might not have 26 speed yet anyway. Then in part 4 she likely starts with a higher speed and only has .1 less than his spd growth. She doesn't really need his crown, just a wing. Without it, she's not as good as him, but really, we have two wings, and she can get one for similar reasons he gets a crown and Mia gets Ike. The differences between her and Haar and other units may not be as large as the difference between crowning Gatrie and the rest or Mia w/ Adept and w/Ike and the rest with it, but it's still rather large.

Just saying she has her advantages. Also aside from 3-4, 3-7, 4-4, her horse is generally a blessing, not a curse. There are brief moments where it's not so great, but Titania moves through thickets better than Gatrie does anyway. Well, it costs both 3, but she has 9 to spend and he just has 6. Even 8 with celerity and she's still better.

And I'm good with Sothe > Leanne, since most of what she has going for her is part 2 and it's mostly counteracted by 1-2, 1-3, 1-4. Maybe not entirely, but Sothe's good in a few other chapters as well. And I could probably be convinced to drop her to above Nailah, I just need some convincing.

edit: fixed a typo

Looking at her leveling,in 3-P she gets about 9 exp a kill,so she levels pretty slowly,and 21 AS misses a lot of things,so she is getting hit exp quite a lot,so she isn't going anywhere anytime soon.She could have trouble getting levels with her shaky offense,she mostly only gets Generals/Sages/Paladins.

23 AS is missing a lot of things by 3-3,and by 3-5 she needs 25 AS to double Halbs/Warriors,which she won't have by now.

She probably doesn't even see combat in 3-7,and in 3-8,again,25 AS is staple,and Titania probably isn't level 20 by now.

In 3-10,she can hit level 20,and she starts doubling the majority of things,so she has climbed out of her rut.

Or not,in 4-1 enemy AS climbs to 24/25,so Titania hits issues again,and in 4-4 you need 30 AS to double reliably,and considering her shaky doubling,I don't know if her being 20/7 By now is reasonable(and this is to double generals,Warriors and Halbs can hit 27/28 AS.)Plus,well,it's 4-4,lolHorse.

Compared to Gatrie,he beats her doubling for 3-5,3-7,and 3-8(3-10 as well if he hit 26 AS),and then they Tie.

In part 4 niether double much,Titania can get a few more things in endgame,but she only has 45 Mt with a brave axe,so her offense is similar to Sothe once he get's doubling,that's not impressive.

Heck,she needs a brave by 4-E-2,unless she has capped speed,she misses warriors.

I would say that Gatrie doubling in 3-5 to 3-8/10 before her is better than any marginal AS lead Titania grows later,since it only let's her double a few select enemies that he couldn't.

Gatrie is also more durable than Titania for all of part 3,since Titania's avo takes longer to build up than Mia's does,and her concrete durability isn't enough to stand up to Gatrie.

[Ether]

Then if I may pick apart your post then.

With just a speedwing she does okay. I'm not sure how fast she'd level, but with just two levels and a wing she has 24 speed.

She'd get 23 Speed out of that, of which was doubling in 3-P and 3-1, and we don't get the speed wing until 3-9. Considering by then, Gatrie would use it too to double as a tier 3 unit for basically all the way until endgame of which he wouldn't necessarily need to double anymore at that point? I'd consider him the winner. As for how she levels, she's a 20/16 Beorc, the highest level of your team. Not even Haar is that high. It's safe to say she is leveling painfully slow. Only person I could imagine leveling slower would be Shinon, due to his shitty melee.

He'd need 4 levels to get the same results, but considering that his leveling speed would be rathr exponential in comparison due to being 6 levels lower against these relatively low leveled enemies...

Then 3 levels later she promotes naturally and has 27. Then she has less doubling issues in part 4 than Gatrie has

Who with basically the same wing post crowning would get the same results, and it's an advantage for him since when he caps speed, he basically has no reason to not crown, thus saving us 5 levels of having to level him up. Until then, Titania's basically having problems, of which it's actually easier to solve for Gatrie. Due remember no wing until 3-9. By then, Gat's promoted, we'd have no reason not to wing him really.

He has a better growth, but she probably has a higher level. It's all about her levels, though. If she has level 18 for 3-4 and level 20 for 3-10 then she does okay.

2 levels in 5 chapters with low level enemies...I'd actually find that a tad hard to swallow with her.

Also, level 20/1 for 3-11. Plus I think she's got better skl/lck so she'll have less hit issues with braves and hammers and she eventually gets wyrmslayers, too. Just needs one sword level after promotion. And sol > Luna whenever you ORKO anyway, and Luna > Sol when you don't. It helps her durability a bit. Also there is the Oscar support. They match move and give Oscar more accuracy with short spears/spears/horseslayer/brave lance and a little more def to offset the avo difference between Oscar and Mia (with Ike).

Gatrie could get the same boosts due to same affinity, and mobility-wise is around more people that can boost hit (Boyd, Mia, Rolf).

As for Luna, it increases his durability as well. When he initiates an attack, when it activates he doesn't have to take a counter. Considering Luna's activation rate>Sol's...

He misses out on mt, but matching move and move types I think balances that. Only problem is that comparing a 02 support with a 00 00 support is a pretty big deal, unlike 02 and 01. Still, matching move and both having canto does some to mitigate the speed of the support.

This I pretty much can't argue. Best I could do is say he wants an offense boosting support, of which he could get from the speedy support of his brother Boyd, or perhaps from Ulki.

She doesn't always double everything Gatrie does in part 3, but with 24 speed in 3-4 and 21 speed in 3-P and 23 speed in 3-2 with the wing she's doubling things he doesn't before he gets his crown and only misses out on 21 speed enemies until she gets 25 speed in 3-10, then misses out on 22 speed enemies until promotion but he might not have 26 speed yet anyway.

This is implying we took a wing from the DB (and I know you will do everything in your power to do so), so that might not necessarily happen. The second one comes in 3-9, of which they both would have the same problem, but he would have greater offense with it and thus deserves it more.

Then in part 4 she likely starts with a higher speed and only has .1 less than his spd growth. She doesn't really need his crown, just a wing. Without it, she's not as good as him, but really, we have two wings, and she can get one for similar reasons he gets a crown and Mia gets Ike.

We have 1 wing, unless you're saying you for some reason brought Illyana to 1-E for the sole reason of stuffing that sucker down her pocket. On top of it, there are DB units that would like that wing as well, and they would have the advantage because Titania and Gatrie technically do not exist on their team. She does need a wing, but by the time one realistically appears, Gatrie can put it to better use. Priorities, priorities...

The differences between her and Haar and other units may not be as large as the difference between crowning Gatrie and the rest or Mia w/ Adept and w/Ike and the rest with it, but it's still rather large.

She needs a rather large amount of kills to get the levels she needs soon enough, or steal from a team that has their own right to use the wing which the GM would only get under rediculous circumstances. The GM do indeed need their own customization, but for Titania it all sounds rather expensive in comparison.

Just saying she has her advantages. Also aside from 3-4, 3-7, 4-4, her horse is generally a blessing, not a curse. There are brief moments where it's not so great, but Titania moves through thickets better than Gatrie does anyway. Well, it costs both 3, but she has 9 to spend and he just has 6. Even 8 with celerity and she's still better.

True, but ont he celerity bit, it would give Gatrie paladin-like movement. Gatrie is generally just an all around better unit, and now on the front like far more often. I'd be more prepared to give Celerity to Gatrie rather than Ti. This is saying that the one with top priority, Haar, doesn't have it anyways.

Yeah,if the GM's don't get the DB's wing,she's screwed,and some of them can use it pretty well.

All levels are with the 1-E wing.

Nolan doubles low level tigers and stops getting doubled by cats at 20/2 with a wing

20/1 Jill with a wing quads all tigers with a Brave Axe.

20/1 Aran stops getting doubled by low level cats.

Sothe doubles low level cats at 20/6,high level at 20/10.

20/2 Micky isn't doubled by low level cats.

Z can double high level cats at level 5

Ed doubles low level cats at 20/3

basically any DBer sees improvement from that Wing,heck,Haar could use it and double with a crown.

Also,the CRK`s wing is available for the GM`s in 3-11,not 3-9.

EDIT:forgot Leo`s Lughnasadh

Edited August 25, 2009 by Ether

[Narga_Rocks]

Then if I may pick apart your post then.

With just a speedwing she does okay. I'm not sure how fast she'd level, but with just two levels and a wing she has 24 speed.

She'd get 23 Speed out of that, of which was doubling in 3-P and 3-1, and we don't get the speed wing until 3-9. Considering by then, Gatrie would use it too to double as a tier 3 unit for basically all the way until endgame of which he wouldn't necessarily need to double anymore at that point? I'd consider him the winner. As for how she levels, she's a 20/16 Beorc, the highest level of your team. Not even Haar is that high. It's safe to say she is leveling painfully slow. Only person I could imagine leveling slower would be Shinon, due to his shitty melee.

There's the 2-3 speedwing. Nobody in that part aside from Haar and Brom really benefit in part 3, and 2-E isn't so hard that using it there is an advantage when a unit disappears until 3-9. While you could give it to Mordy or Lethe, Lethe doesn't need speed until 3-8 and by then bexp is cheap for her finishing a level. Mordy and the wing gets to 22 speed but resolve means 27, which is good enough for all non-swordmasters in part 3. It's really between Haar and Titania. As for leveling, I'm not sure about level 18 for 3-4, but 3-5 doesn't seem unreasonable. She's leveling slow, but she's not yet tier 3 so she gains something.

He'd need 4 levels to get the same results, but considering that his leveling speed would be rathr exponential in comparison due to being 6 levels lower against these relatively low leveled enemies...

Who needs 4 levels? Gatrie or something? Well, anyway, Gatrie gets the crown in 3-4 and I'm generally giving him 5 levels between 3-P and the end of 3-3.

Then 3 levels later she promotes naturally and has 27. Then she has less doubling issues in part 4 than Gatrie has

Who with basically the same wing post crowning would get the same results, and it's an advantage for him since when he caps speed, he basically has no reason to not crown, thus saving us 5 levels of having to level him up. Until then, Titania's basically having problems, of which it's actually easier to solve for Gatrie. Due remember no wing until 3-9. By then, Gat's promoted, we'd have no reason not to wing him really.

I'm not giving either the 3-9 wing. At that point you have others that can also be close enough to promotion to crown + wing so neither Gatrie nor Titania is really deserving. Gatrie uses it well, too, at this point, but honestly, I can't guarantee it for him thanks to all the other options.

He has a better growth, but she probably has a higher level. It's all about her levels, though. If she has level 18 for 3-4 and level 20 for 3-10 then she does okay.

2 levels in 5 chapters with low level enemies...I'd actually find that a tad hard to swallow with her.

Yes, level 18 for 3-4 may be difficult. If someone would like to give exp per kill stats for Titania in 3-P to 3-4 it'd be great. Still, 23 speed is pretty good for 3-5 thanks to all the paladins with 19 speed in the middle, and the mages on the west and generals on the right. She loses 3-4 anyway because she can't go on the ledge, but Gatrie is rather slow so his win isn't huge even if she's stuck at 23 speed.

Also, level 20/1 for 3-11. Plus I think she's got better skl/lck so she'll have less hit issues with braves and hammers and she eventually gets wyrmslayers, too. Just needs one sword level after promotion. And sol > Luna whenever you ORKO anyway, and Luna > Sol when you don't. It helps her durability a bit. Also there is the Oscar support. They match move and give Oscar more accuracy with short spears/spears/horseslayer/brave lance and a little more def to offset the avo difference between Oscar and Mia (with Ike).

Gatrie could get the same boosts due to same affinity, and mobility-wise is around more people that can boost hit (Boyd, Mia, Rolf).

As for Luna, it increases his durability as well. When he initiates an attack, when it activates he doesn't have to take a counter. Considering Luna's activation rate>Sol's...

Gats has less skl and luck. Like, by a lot. A +hit support gives him 15, Titania gets 8 on her own. 7 hit isn't making up for the difference. Even give him a brave lance and her a brave axe and she might have more anyway, despite needing 12 extra hit from skill + luck. Plus on hammers it's the same weapon, and she definitely trumps 7 hit. As for Gatrie, giving a super durable guy Oscar is interesting. The idea behind talking about Titania and Oscar isn't to say she has more durability than Gatrie, she doesn't, just to say she's not fearing death when Oscar is around. And Titania has more skill so she's looking at like 15% sol by 20/8. Gatrie's skl is low enough he's only at 25% at that time. He's so durable he barely needs luna, though, so it's a minor durability increase if he luna's on the first attack during player phase. Sol is again just letting Titania catch up a little bit to Gatrie's durability, not beat it.

He misses out on mt, but matching move and move types I think balances that. Only problem is that comparing a 02 support with a 00 00 support is a pretty big deal, unlike 02 and 01. Still, matching move and both having canto does some to mitigate the speed of the support.

This I pretty much can't argue. Best I could do is say he wants an offense boosting support, of which he could get from the speedy support of his brother Boyd, or perhaps from Ulki.

Really it's the whole 3-4 and 3-7 thing where Boyd would be supportless, and Oscar starting from scratch with Ulki has issues for Oscar's durability. Also, Ulki would probably like 0% hit rates from crossbows, and I'd find it hilarious to look at, but Ulki doesn't seem like the best location for earth. If Haar had +mt, or if Geoffrey was around or Marcia from 3-2 then I couldn't argue for Oscar + Titania as well, since then he'd have +mt and match move speed. As it is...

She doesn't always double everything Gatrie does in part 3, but with 24 speed in 3-4 and 21 speed in 3-P and 23 speed in 3-2 with the wing she's doubling things he doesn't before he gets his crown and only misses out on 21 speed enemies until she gets 25 speed in 3-10, then misses out on 22 speed enemies until promotion but he might not have 26 speed yet anyway.

This is implying we took a wing from the DB (and I know you will do everything in your power to do so), so that might not necessarily happen. The second one comes in 3-9, of which they both would have the same problem, but he would have greater offense with it and thus deserves it more.

Well, there's also the 2-3 wing. But if we only have one then she might have issues since Haar with a wing is pretty sweet too. Which puts this discussion down to the 1-E wing.

Then in part 4 she likely starts with a higher speed and only has .1 less than his spd growth. She doesn't really need his crown, just a wing. Without it, she's not as good as him, but really, we have two wings, and she can get one for similar reasons he gets a crown and Mia gets Ike.

We have 1 wing, unless you're saying you for some reason brought Illyana to 1-E for the sole reason of stuffing that sucker down her pocket. On top of it, there are DB units that would like that wing as well, and they would have the advantage because Titania and Gatrie technically do not exist on their team. She does need a wing, but by the time one realistically appears, Gatrie can put it to better use. Priorities, priorities...

Well, Ilyana goes to 1-E for the wing, a fire forge Tormod was using, a steel axe forge Nolan was using, having better 2 range than Edward and Nolan and other tier 1 units not names Micaiah. Really, she's not bad here. And there are at least 3 items to carry over to the GMs.

The differences between her and Haar and other units may not be as large as the difference between crowning Gatrie and the rest or Mia w/ Adept and w/Ike and the rest with it, but it's still rather large.

She needs a rather large amount of kills to get the levels she needs soon enough, or steal from a team that has their own right to use the wing which the GM would only get under rediculous circumstances. The GM do indeed need their own customization, but for Titania it all sounds rather expensive in comparison.

I don't really see Titania being #3 in the 1-E and 2-3 speedwing list. Volug doubles anyway, Sothe won't be doubling cats, Zihark needs like 2 levels, Nolan and Jill are much too far away from doubling them. Really, nobody in the DBs seems like a good user of the wing, and they are comparing 3 and a half chapters to 9 chapters.

Just saying she has her advantages. Also aside from 3-4, 3-7, 4-4, her horse is generally a blessing, not a curse. There are brief moments where it's not so great, but Titania moves through thickets better than Gatrie does anyway. Well, it costs both 3, but she has 9 to spend and he just has 6. Even 8 with celerity and she's still better.

True, but ont he celerity bit, it would give Gatrie paladin-like movement. Gatrie is generally just an all around better unit, and now on the front like far more often. I'd be more prepared to give Celerity to Gatrie rather than Ti. This is saying that the one with top priority, Haar, doesn't have it anyways.

Except she's still doing better with 9 move vs. 8 move. I was never trying to give Titania celerity. Gatrie could have it, or even the hawks if you want them to shove someone and run forward. Not saying it's a great use of their player phase, just saying. Even if we give Gatrie celerity, she still tops his movement.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Remember Titania also has much, much more mobility the majority of the time and her durabilities good enougth to not die, meaning that Gatrie's def lead is mostly superfluous (not completely, but their chance of dying doesn't affect their performance much) and Gatrie only gets, like, 3 more exp per hit.

Btw, what's the exp calculator on HM?

[Interceptor]

Hard Mode's gain is the same as Normal Mode's, except you're minus five on per-hit EXP. This is what usually makes Titania-like units hit a brick wall, and why it's hard to promo until late Part 3.

I don't remember the formula 100% off the top of my head. From memory: your per-hit EXP in Hard Mode is 5 base when both units are the same level. The EXP is adjusted by 0.5 for each difference in level (rounded up), minimum of 1 point. Kill CEXP is hit CEXP plus 15 points, adjusted by 1 point for each difference in level, minimum gain is 1 point. There are other modifiers for tier differences, laguz, and bosses, but I don't recall them atm.

[Jaybee]

(enemy level - unit level) / 2 + 5(hit) or 20(kill) IIRC. Laguz levels are doubled, tier differences add on 20, I haven't confirmed bosses yet.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, now for a longer response than what I had time for earlier. And I really don't have issues with dropping Titania, or Leanne, really. Just I think Titania's getting a short stick at times so I see it as an issue.

Looking at her leveling,in 3-P she gets about 9 exp a kill,so she levels pretty slowly,and 21 AS misses a lot of things,so she is getting hit exp quite a lot,so she isn't going anywhere anytime soon.She could have trouble getting levels with her shaky offense,she mostly only gets Generals/Sages/Paladins.

Well, 21 spd means she doubles like 9 enemies, possibly 11 if the Other Units don't get to the last 2 in 3-P first. That's something, more than Gatrie, in fact. Also, we have units like Soren and Rhys and Rolf that could occasionally be starting enemies off with chip damage since they don't take a counter. Titania can get kills, and 2RKOing everything but generals is anything but shaky. She has access to a steel poleax in 3-P so she starts with 40 mt and 22 x 2 + 19 + 15 + 60 = 138 hit against mostly <58 avo enemies. 80 listed is 92.2 true, so her accuracy is respectable with it. And a lot of enemies have low 50s, so it's really lower. That 39 mt means 22/36 damage to halbs and 25/40 hp damage to warriors and 25/33 hp damage to swordmasters. Rolf lets Titania KO a swordmaster, though she has lower hit with the poleaxe against them than the other enemies. With swordmasters, though, she can use a steel axe and cause 21 damage and Rolf with 27 mt can do the weakening so Titania KOs. 27 mt with magic lets her KO the halbs, and 24 mt with magic lets her KO the warriors. Soren and Rhys get that. In fact, Soren with elwind has 29 mt and she KOs with a steel axe again. She can get kills if we want. It's even good strategy if we aren't seriously training those three, and even if we are it can still be good to avoid counters sometimes.

Enemies range from level 6 to level 9, but are mostly 7 or 8. Level 16, based on Int's calcs, means 1 point of exp for a hit. Also, 1 + 15 - 8 = 8 or 7 for the enemies, depending on level 8 or level 7. Similar enemy levels in 3-1.

13 enemies along the way in 3-P, and when we meet the laguz there are 14 more including the boss. Interesting note, here, is that Titania has an Ike bond, and 19 base luck, so she's immune to crits. That could end up being helpful, and with it's 45 avo the steel poleax isn't bad here and does 22 damage, so that's good, too, and could affect her exp gains. How much do bosses give for killing them?

In 3-1, another 30 + 1 (boss) enemies here as well. Without a boss kill she'd need 13 kills of level 8 units or 14 kills of level 7 units and 2 non-kills of anything. That's likely a little high, though, with only 44 enemies guaranteed to meet and possibly getting 58 from what the HM Enemy stats says. Still, she's a good unit for finishing kills, especially since she's got the highest str (tied with Gatrie) and more hit than him.

Anyway, she needs 2 levels by 3-4, and if she's not yet level 17 (she would be with a boss kill in 3-P, though she may actually be best for weakening him). Enemies are now between level 6 and 10, though mostly level 8 now. Still, there are a lot of 17 speed enemies she nukes now and Gatrie needed to get +spd on his level to get 21 speed. Assuming Gatrie didn't get two levels, a reasonable assumption, he's got a fair chance of still losing offence. Also, a C Oscar now means Titania has 36 hp, 25 str, 22 skl, 21+2 spd, 19 luck, 20 + 1 def, and 14 + 1 res. Gatrie has: 44 hp, 25 str, 18 skl, 20 spd, 15 luck, 24 + 1 def, 11 + 1 res. Plus whatever he got in a level. While there aren't a lot of thunder sages, he faces real crit from them for 13 x 3 = 39 damage in 3-1 and 3-2. Well, there are a couple with 14 x 3 = 42 damage. Anyway, they exist, they aren't many, but they are there. Anyway, Titania is still 4HKOd by most of the map, considering they need at least 33 mt to 3HKO her. She's doing okay, and with a C Oscar has (21+2) x 2 + 19 + 15 + 8 = 88 avo, meaning sub 50 hit rates from almost everything and only <30 listed (<18.3 true) from the dudes that 3HKO her. She's not likely to be dying, so the better move (hers) partly makes up for the better durability (his). Gatrie can't always get in the way of enemies, he's also not necessarily doubling as much, though partway through when he gets his second level he's easily got the 21 speed to double a bunch of paladins. Still, he may not be the best choice here, and the 2-3 speedwing or the 1-E speedwing makes her get all the 18 speed guys for which Gatrie needs 3 levels. (wing on a guy about to cap spd anyway is silly.) As of level 17, those level 8 guys now give 7 exp and the level 9s give 8. So she still needs around 28 kills in 4 chapters to level.

23 AS is missing a lot of things by 3-3,and by 3-5 she needs 25 AS to double Halbs/Warriors,which she won't have by now.

I think she's pretty much showed the ability to kill, and 3-3 has more than enough <20 speed guys for her to blitz with 23 speed, and she's still whacking pretty hard with her steel poleax, or could grab a forge for an extra point of mt but more importantly more hit. 51 enemies in 3-2 and 36 in 3-4. Also there are some level 10, 11, and 12 enemies in 3-3. She gets 2 hit exp from level 11 or 12 guys while at level 17. Then she gets 2 + 15 - 6 = 11 kill exp from level 11 guys and 12 kill exp from level 12 guys. Also the level 10s give a level 17 Titania 1 + 15 - 7 = 9 kill exp.

Point is, needing ~28 kills out of >= 44 + 51 + 36 = 131 enemies means 21% of the kills. Of course, she is one of the better offensive units right now, and pretty up there in terms of durability and has the move to put it to use in a few of these chapters. Also, there's an extra 14 enemies possibly met in 3-P.

In 3-4, she's obviously losing, but I haven't a clue what is in the areas she can reasonably attack here. Besides, Gatrie needs to go a long way with his slow move and too much wt to be shoved, so I'm not sure what's left for him once he gets up there anyway. Still, this is about leveling Titania, so it's an issue.

In 3-5, however, the halbs and warriors aren't exactly a big deal here. Crowned Gatrie doubles them, sure, but the focus here is killing the boss. There aren't actually very many units with 20/21 spd on the way to the boss. Mostly it's the paladins. Or she could go east and there are swordmasters to watch out for, though even these guys are good targets for Titania. She 2RKOs them, and standing next to Mist sets up a bond for +5 cev and lets Titania not be critted. You'd need another unit standing somewhere to guard Mist, but it helps. You could use Oscar, and find a bond for him to stand next to (18 + something crit evade vs. 21 crit enemies) and then it's building support levels (they have B now). Then a bunch of Generals keep showing up as reinforcements and Titania's already shown ability to hit with a 60 hit weapon and has +5 hit from supports to make up for potentially increasing avo. And those paladins in the south around the boss mostly have 19 speed, and since she was likely close to level 18 if she only got ~20 kills for those 4 chapters combined (just 5 kills a map while being really rather good?) then she's not far off level 18 with all the enemies she could have attacked in 3-4 and earlier parts of 3-5. So any 20 speed paladins near the boss are ORKOd too.

She probably doesn't even see combat in 3-7,and in 3-8,again,25 AS is staple,and Titania probably isn't level 20 by now.

Well, there's a bunch of enemies in 3-7 before the islands start that are helpful for her to attack, and an A Oscar and level 18 means

37 hp, 26 str, 23 skl, 22+2 spd, ~20 luck, 20 + 2 def, and 14 + 2 res

Also, 23 x 2 + 19 + 15 + 8 = 88 base hit. 148 with a hammer/steel poleax. 163 with a steel axe. 163 or more with a steel axe forge.

(22+2) x 2 + 19 + 15 + 23 = 105 avo.

Enemies need at least 35 mt to 3HKO her. Anything less 4HKOs or more. EG: 31 mt 5HKOs her. Chances are, she could walk out, face everything on the first island, kill or injure them, and let everyone else take on the rest of the map. Now, that may not be the best way to go about things thanks to the thickets, but since Reyson could vigor her, it does mean a bunch of units can kill things on turn 2. It might be a bit slower, though, since Ike x Mia can probably get further ahead or at least not need Reyson. Anyway, she'll do something, here. Maybe one or two enemies. That 24 speed doubles all but 1 non-swordmaster, and I don't think the odds of him being near the beginning are high. The swordmasters in this chapter are also mostly around Zihark.

In 3-8, that 101 avo and rather high (for a sometimes dodger) mt requirement for various #RKOs against her means enemies have difficulty killing her, too.

A fair number of generals and sages to kill. With enough sages around, Gatrie or Ike might need to equip some kind of ranged weapon and might miss the KOs of other things. In any situation in which >50% of the enemies are ranged, it's not a bad idea for that on enemy phase. Or if Mia doesn't pull something. Or if Ulki doesn't kill. He'd need to proc adept or get a ton of bexp and proc tear. Anyway, there are lots of <21 spd enemies for Titania to kill, and opportunities to kill weakened >= 21 speed enemies. Her loss to Gatrie is there, since he's doing better offensively, but he still has -1 move to her here and she can kill a fair bit. The loss is mitigated, not eliminated, but it's not huge. Like, 12 enemies before reinforcements. 1 extra with. Since they both 2 round the boss, they are pretty even on him, too.

In 3-10,she can hit level 20,and she starts doubling the majority of things,so she has climbed out of her rut.

I'm actually less sure about level 20 here, now, but since most units are getting small amounts of bexp along the way, Titania could very well have gotten a bit (Gatrie too) and that may or may not make the difference. Level 13 enemies in 3-8 vs. level 19 Titania means 2 exp per non-kill and 11 exp per kill. Only 9 kills and one non-kill gets a level. Since I was originally saying 1 level per 2 chapters, it might actually even out since towards the later stages of part 3 she's now getting a fair bit more than she was at first.

Or not,in 4-1 enemy AS climbs to 24/25,so Titania hits issues again,and in 4-4 you need 30 AS to double reliably,and considering her shaky doubling,I don't know if her being 20/7 By now is reasonable(and this is to double generals,Warriors and Halbs can hit 27/28 AS.)Plus,well,it's 4-4,lolHorse.

Actually, in 4-1 she'd have 20/2 and 27.5 speed. Well, maybe 20/1, maybe 20/2. Either way, all those 24 speed halbs just need a couple of levels. Don't forget, tons of mages on the east side and Titania has ~26 skill, 21 luck, +8 from support. 52 + 21 + 15 + 8 = 96 base hit. 156 with a hammer. Gets around 100% against the generals in the east. Gatrie is not getting her level of skill or luck at this point, so she's more reliable. If Gatrie supported wind/fire/light I suppose the extra 7 cuts it back a bit, but Titania and a hammer is a pretty good idea compared to anyone without the hit to 100%. Also, there's not many 25 speed enemies, anyway. Like, 5 warriors, one sniper. The swordmasters and pegs are higher, obviously. Funny thing is with 29 str after promotion a brave axe means 40 mt and 176 hit. She's even got a mostly safe way to take out a swordmaster on player phase and avoid the counter with crit chance. Gatrie may not care much about being criticalled, not with his def, but at least Titania's not as likely to miss. She leaves a falco with 1 hp, though, but if she hits 20/3 then she's getting those, too.

4-4 later.

Compared to Gatrie,he beats her doubling for 3-5,3-7,and 3-8(3-10 as well if he hit 26 AS),and then they Tie.

Gatrie needs 20/6 for 28 speed. Titania needs 20/3 for 28 speed with that wing from earlier. They aren't really tying here.

In part 4 niether double much,Titania can get a few more things in endgame,but she only has 45 Mt with a brave axe,so her offense is similar to Sothe once he get's doubling,that's not impressive.

Heck,she needs a brave by 4-E-2,unless she has capped speed,she misses warriors.

In 4-4, there are still enemies in the south east that must be killed to finish the map. Then there are enemy reinforcements (9 total before turn 10)

as well. To double the sages and generals along the way east, 30 AS is 20/7 (28 + 2). The generals along the way likely aren't even the 26 speed ones, so she may only need 20/5. Then after assisting Mist and Oscar in killing the things down there, she might have the 20/9 to get 29 + 2 = 31 speed and double the 27 speed sniper reinforcement. 20/11 might be difficult for the 28 speed Warrior, though. Still, at least she's doubling something. Gatrie needs 15/11 for the sniper here, anyway. Titania does it sooner. If Gats can get the sniper, she can get the warrior and still overrules.

20/9 gets her all the generals in 4-E-1, and has a higher hit rate with the hammer, though I'm not sure if Gatrie isn't getting mostly 100%s by now, but Titania at the very least should be more bio proof. Gats needs 20/11 for them, despite not doubling as much in 4-1/2 and 4-4/5 and having a harder time getting around in 4-1/2/5 and even though he can ascend ledges in 4-4 it's still slow enough that Ike x Mia have usually nuked everything he can reach before he gets there. So Gatrie becomes locked to Titania's path if he wants to kill stuff and then his ledge climbing is irrelevant until they reach the ledges in the east and he can climb towards treasure. At which point he's still slow enough that waiting for him to help out might result in not routing by turn 10.

So Gatrie may not have 31 speed for all the generals, but that ~30 speed at 15/9 is good enough for most. As for 4-E-2, 20/13 means 33 speed for Titania. Doubling halbs, warriors, snipers is a good thing. I went into this a long while ago, but in my one HM playthrough the 4-E-2 halbs all had 27 spd for me. Vykan says the calculations show 28 speed and I must have gotten insanely lucky (not exact words). I have my doubts, and doubling halbs would reduce Gatrie's loses here. Still, it could be a short chapter, and that was my defence of Mia's lower durability in this chapter. She's still fine while on best, by the way, just without Ike she is kinda iffy while on worst bio. Anyway, they are similar in 4-E-3, except Titania can canto after wyrmslayer attacks and has 3 more move if she doesn't need to hide afterwards. Or to mean she can go up 6 move like Gatrie and still be able to run away 3 squares after.

4-E-4 she doubles thunder spirits sans Nasir. That may not seem like much, but the Urvan or even a 19 mt axe forge means 20/13 Titania and her 34 str has 53 mt and ORKOs the guy even while it's on a cover tile. That's 1/3 the enemies. Often a similar total to the number of enemies Gatrie doubles that she didn't in some part 3 chapters. And a brave axe means 45 mt and ORKOs fire spirits while they aren't on cover tiles.

Another cool thing for 4-E-5 is that she can be given a brave axe and pass and ORKO the fire spirit in the far north on turn 1. Or I think 9 move can get a unit adjacent if it starts in the right spot. Anyway, it's on wardwood, so sages aren't ORKOing it with Nasir + meteor or anything. It's not big, but a lot of Gatrie's advantages were a couple of units here and there and he doesn't always reach them before other units anyway. It makes the less durable units much safer on turn 1 enemy phase with up to 3 spirits attacks and the AoE. Fewer spirits attacks. Also in 4-E-5 she has the same mt with a brave axe as Gats does with a brave sword. If Gats wants the brave axe, he has to face the whole 10 lower hit rate than brave sword while having lower skl and lck than Titania and thus higher chance of missing that hurt him here against Mia.

I would say that Gatrie doubling in 3-5 to 3-8/10 before her is better than any marginal AS lead Titania grows later,since it only let's her double a few select enemies that he couldn't.

But the same argument can be made about Gatrie's doubling in part 3. It's only a few enemies he's doubling that she isn't. She's usually over 50% on the doubling front.

Gatrie is also more durable than Titania for all of part 3,since Titania's avo takes longer to build up than Mia's does,and her concrete durability isn't enough to stand up to Gatrie.

Titania's lower avo than Mia is partially made up for by her higher initial hp/def. Eventually, Mia gets 50hp/25 def, but Titania gets more hp and more def and has a built in +2 from Light. At 20/10, Titania has 47.8 hp, 25.6 + 2 def. Call it 48 hp and 27 def and she still wins that. More res, too. Even bigger difference thanks to Light. Point is, Titania and Mia are pretty close, and they rival Gatrie's overall durability with their avo.

Yeah,if the GM's don't get the DB's wing,she's screwed,and some of them can use it pretty well.

All levels are with the 1-E wing.

Nolan doubles low level tigers and stops getting doubled by cats at 20/2 with a wing

20/1 Jill with a wing quads all tigers with a Brave Axe.

20/1 Aran stops getting doubled by low level cats.

Sothe doubles low level cats at 20/6,high level at 20/10.

20/2 Micky isn't doubled by low level cats.

Z can double high level cats at level 5

Ed doubles low level cats at 20/3

basically any DBer sees improvement from that Wing,heck,Haar could use it and double with a crown.

Also,the CRK`s wing is available for the GM`s in 3-11,not 3-9.

EDIT:forgot Leo`s Lughnasadh

There are three wings:

1-E, 2-3, 3-9. The 2-3 one can either be sent to the convoy if the killer in 2-3 has a full inventory, or can be given to Marcia in 2-3 to make it easier to give to Haar in 2-E (benefit on turn 1 enemy phase) or some other unit for sending to the GMs. Even if it's left in the hands of the rest of the CRK in 2-3, Nealuchi can still fly over, pick it up, and fly it to Neph or Brom for safekeeping. The 3-9 one that's available in 3-11 is also available at the same time as an influx of crowns, so a unit could be crowned and winged and a lot of units can double for the remainder of part 3 and have a better shot at some doubling in part 4.

So the 3-11 one isn't really guaranteed for Gatrie, if anyone is wondering. As for the DB's, Jill and Nolan are profiting in 3-6 and the remainder of 1-E. I don't think those chapters are so difficult that we need to use a speedwing on units that will cap speed before part 3 is over and cause us to miss out on many many GM chapters of pwnage and long term use in part 4. Aran no longer getting doubled when a couple levels would mean the same is again not major, since he'd be pretty close to not getting doubled regardless. Also, he's not so great that it should be assumed he's in play. Plus, his durability is still usually decent enough without the wing. The thing he's best for, really, is survival against tigers, and he does that without a wing. By 3-13, he's taking small damage from cats anyway. Using a wing on Sothe seems unecessary. He's OHKOing the cats with beastkiller anyway, or coming close enough anyway that an iron dagger attack on player phase puts them in OHKO range. Doubles the vast majority of tigers while at base level, too. Micaiah not getting doubled seems pointless when she's healing and thani bombing. Accelerating Z's speed is again a 3-6 benefit only, since if he's used his 23 spd base and spd growth are so good that by 3-13 the benefits of the wing get eaten away anyway.

Honestly, I don't see how a few small benefits in 3-6 outweigh an entire game of Titania's Storming.

Titania gets 1-E speedwing (in 3-2 base), Haar gets 2-3 speedwing (on turn 1 from Marcia in 2-E). 3-9 speedwing, no doritos best choice. I'm not really seeing how other units getting these things gives a larger benefit.

The crux of the argument does come down to Titania getting the speedwing. Really, without it I'm not even seeing Titania > Nailah. I'm not sure if anybody has a reason for Titania to stay above Nailah without it. Sure, she's around for a long time, but without the wing she's about average for offence, average for defence (well above average with Oscar support), above average strength. And I'm less certain about giving her Oscar's support. She's still matching his move, but she no longer has the offence for us to care if she can take 4 or 5 attacks on enemy phase when we need it.

Come to think of it, though, that Oscar support may not always allow Titania to position herself such that she is attacked rather than Oscar. Not really sure what to do about it. Durability drop otherwise, and I'm not really sure who would be a good partner for Titania other than Oscar, since the only offence/defence unit with 9 move is Haar, and Haar comes in 3-2 and spends time away from home. Waiting for Ulki/Janaff = bad.

Ideas anyone? Maybe just accept that she doesn't get attacked all the time like Mia would and just assume there are times she can get in range of a good number of enemies while Oscar isn't also in their range? With no support she loses defence and with a support the partner may just get attacked. At least Oscar with A Titania can just about take whatever is given him. Trouble is the loss in enemy phase damage, but still at least he won't die like other supporters of Titania might.

[-Cynthia-]

I think given how we've distributed resources in other comparisons, denying Titania a Speedwing while Gatrie gets a Crown and Mia gets Adept/Earth wouldn't make much sense. We have 2 Speedwings by 3-2 and Titania/Haar are doritos. I don't see Titania dropping except maybe below Sothe, but that's a tough comparison. Sothe's Part 1> Titania's Part 3 IMO, but she beats him Part 4.

Leanne on the other hand, only had 6 chapters before the Endgame she won't be going to. She's got less relative availability than Nailah, for instance(Nailah going to 4-E isn't detrimental), and I'd rather have Nailah's great combat than 2 extra Player Phases we have to protect a unit for. Leanne actually has some chapters where's she's not that useful anyway, namely 4-3. I would personally sit her down right above Rafiel.

Edited August 26, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Jaybee]

I'd say go below Tibarn. He kicks too much ass and is invincible unless he gets hit by 2 straight crossbows. Leanne's 2 vigoring doesn't seem to compare that much. And then she's one-shotted.