OMG it's a tier list

[Ether]

For those who think Leanne should drop to right above Rafiel, read this post from Narga a few pages back.

And this cemented my idea that right above or below Nailah sounds right to me.

Yeah,she is pretty great part 2...put Nailan is awesome part 1.

Whoever is consideres more useful pre part 4 should be on top,and no one should probably be between them.

As for Titania, I'm not even sure what to do with her. Seeing her < Mia seems weird, but then again, so did Mia > Gatrie.

And embrace the unknown Fox,it seems wierd,but her doubling is just too shaky for too long to be that high,and she really does ¨need that speedwing.

i can't believe that I took so long to remember that Mia is raping from 3-2 with the brave Sword.

I'm still not sure just how I feel about the brave sword. Really, offence isn't of extreme importance in the DBs part 3, but Ilyana can only transfer so many items, and having the brave sword to disintegrate a cat that won't die otherwise is still useful. It's a defence chapter, but part of the defence is making sure there are no injured enemies suiciding into player units and causing damage while the player unit clears space and gets killed by the next enemy. Maybe steal it in 3-7? Really, though, Heather can only nab so many things. Jill and Zihark are the simplest units, since Jill can be made to fly over alone and Zihark is on his own island. But even with using vigor on Heather, we don't likely want to leave Zihark around for too many turns so she's likely getting a max of 2 items from him and 1 or 2 from Jill. Since she has flight, if we don't take her out quick after drawing her she can fly over and attack something squishy. I'm already suggesting a silver dagger so Heather is less useless in 3-8 and 3-10 between steals/digging and the crown for Haar. I'm not sure she can steal too many things.

And I think thanks to Oscar's preferences and not-high-tier-ness I can see Mia > Titania anyway. It even hurts a bit vs. Gatrie.

And Titania can be significantly better in 3-P and 3-1 than Mia thanks to higher concrete durability, damaging Generals, the 8 or so enemies she doubles that Gatrie didn't, the possibility of a killer axe for having a better proc rate than doubling Mia with a steel sword... I just don't see anything resembling a tie between Titania and Mia. They effectively tie offensively from 3-3 to 3-10. Without a brave Mia loses out to Titania in 3-2. Then Titania wins in 3-11 and until Mia promotes. Also wins in 4-E-1 thanks to hammers and good hit, wins in 4-E-3 thanks to wyrmslayer (tying Mia's offence against whites but losing vs. reds) and canto and 3HKOd from reds rather than 2HKOd, I think.

Anyway, I still see Mia > Titania, but not in 3-P to 3-2, or 3-11. Well, if you can somehow get Mia to 20/1 for part of 3-11, then it's a different story, but I'm not convinced that's doable.

In 3-P and 3-1,Titania only doubles 10 enemies,5 of which Gatrie doubles as well.

Titania's Crit with a killer is around the same as Mia's adept chance shot for shot.But Mia hits twice,and has crit of her own.

Being better agianst almost everything > being better agianst 10 enemies.

Mia wins offense in 3-P/3-1

What do the GM's really need from the DB?

Ilyana seals so she can take Shade,Celerity,and one 10 capacity skill with her,she takes the wing.And i don't see anything else the Gm's need.They are gonna get mostly sellables,but I would say bringing the Brave sword has enough use to be worth leaving a red gem with the DB or something,since the DB needs some sellables to keep as well.

Titania misses doubling a fair amount of enemies for a long time,so you can hardly call their offense a tie.and by 3-11 Mia can either ORKO most things anyway,and should be close to promotion anyway.

if Mia is 15 + 1 at the beginning of 3-7,and gains 1 level per chapter,she is level 19 by the end of 3-10,not to mention any time she ends a map close to leveling,she will get topped off with BEXP since she has capped quite a few things,if she get's > 1 level per chapter,she can be promoted with a little bit of BEXP very easily for 3-11.

In fact,we just got a third crown.Mia could put it to use here if she isn't promoted by now,since i don't see anyone else who really needs it right now(and it isn't really much of a negative since Titania took a speedwing)

Edited August 26, 2009 by Ether

[-Cynthia-]

I don't see how we can give Mia an Earth support and not Titania and declare Mia more durable, considering OscarXTitania is a fine pairing. And Titania has a durability lead before supports kick in and before they hit B, and whenever supporters aren't in range.

Also, a lot of the Mia/Titania comprisons have some pretty funky leveling IMO. Why are they promoting in the same chapter when Titania starts with a 9 level lead?

@Robo The reason we usually don't give Sothe an Earth is that it breaks his Micaiah support, which both can benefit from in the long run, but it hurts them short term.

Edited August 26, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

@Robo The reason we usually don't give Sothe an Earth is that it breaks his Micaiah support, which both can benefit from in the long run, but it hurts them short term.

Earth does him better, and Michaiah doesn't care. Seriously, why keep him tethered to little miss weakling? He could support Nolan. He's around for the time, both get good avoid out of it regardless (difference between C Earth and A darkness is literally 3 avoid), and Nolan would love the Acc boost.

Also, point me to someone who can give him the same avoid within their time. What? No one? Indeed, no other supporter gives Nolan more avoid off the bat. Only one s Aran, and Aran happens to be missing for a chapter, along with no chapter bonuses. So nyeh! Well there is Michaiah, but..Would you prefer 1 front liner or 2?

Why not give him an Earth? I just showed how he's putting it to better use than a freaking double Earth support.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[-Cynthia-]

The +Mt from the Micaiah support often is the difference between Sothe ORKOing and not ORKOing, or be able to ORKO with a weaker weapon. The +Mt also allows Micaiah to definitely ORKO Generals and some Pallies, she can be borderlien without the support.

[Zkirsche]

Ike is forced. Oscar is only upper mid.

Forced =/= used.

[Ether]

I don't see how we can give Mia an Earth support and not Titania and declare Mia more durable, considering OscarXTitania is a fine pairing. And Titania has a durability lead before supports kick in and before they hit B, and whenever supporters aren't in range.

Also, a lot of the Mia/Titania comprisons have some pretty funky leveling IMO. Why are they promoting in the same chapter when Titania starts with a 9 level lead?

@Robo The reason we usually don't give Sothe an Earth is that it breaks his Micaiah support, which both can benefit from in the long run, but it hurts them short term.

When both have their support,they are equal durably.Problem is,Oscar isn't guaranteed to be in play,and he would prefer attack if he could get it.This doesn't mean Ti won't support Oscar,but it definitely hurts her in comparison to Mia's support.

Also,Ti's leveling is horrible early on,while Mia's is quite fast for all of part 3,not to mention Mia has the potention to get quite a few more kills than Ti.

(If she supports oscar,most enemies will target him,while the opposite is true in Mia's case,she is an enemy magnet.

[grandjackal]

The +Mt from the Micaiah support often is the difference between Sothe ORKOing and not ORKOing, or be able to ORKO with a weaker weapon. The +Mt also allows Micaiah to definitely ORKO Generals and some Pallies, she can be borderlien without the support.

ORKOing..what exactly?

Also, Michaiah could support pretty much anyone else and get the same boosts. Hell, she could get better boosts with Leo.

Also, know what Nolan would like? Not missing as much.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

Ike is forced. Oscar is only upper mid.

Forced =/= used.

Are you seriously saying IKE won't be used just to hurt Mia?

[Zkirsche]

Are you seriously saying IKE won't be used just to hurt Mia?

I'm not saying ike isn't more likely to be used, because he is, but saying we're automatically using Ike because he's forced isn't true for the same reason we don't assign negative utility to bad forced units.

Edited August 26, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

Are you seriously saying IKE won't be used just to hurt Mia?

I'm not saying ike isn't more liekly to be used, because he is, but saying we're automatically using Ike because he's forced isn't true.

Try endgame without using him seriously throughout the game. I fucking dare you.

Also, anyone disagree with Sothe>Titania?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

Are you seriously saying IKE won't be used just to hurt Mia?

I'm not saying ike isn't more likely to be used, because he is, but saying we're automatically using Ike because he's forced isn't true for the same reason we don't assign negative utility to bad forced units.

It's just.It's like saying to shove Haar in a corner for all of part 3.Please don't grasp at straws like that. :/

[grandjackal]

It's not even that good a case. Ike needs to survive endgame, and he's not going to without being used seriously.

Spirit maps, the Black Knight fight (seriously try that with Base Ike)...

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not saying ike isn't more likely to be used, because he is, but saying we're automatically using Ike because he's forced isn't true for the same reason we don't assign negative utility to bad forced units.

There are also other situations, such as Ike supporting Soren. It's faster than IkexMia, provides better bonuses and Soren appreciates the support nearly as much as Mia does. Mia isn't the only person wanting an Earth support on the GMs you know.

Adept is pretty similar in the sense that a lot of other characters want it. There are several characters who double, but don't consistently ORKO, such as Shinon, Ulki, Janaff, Ranulf, Nephenee. Even if they don't use it quite as well as Mia, their performance still improves considerably with it and this hsouldn't be ignored.

Basically, even when you're "doritos" there are still signficant opportunity costs involved and you guys seem to be applying them to other characters far more than to Mia.

[grandjackal]

It may be rediculous, but does anyone disagree with Sothe>Titania?

In fact, I've noticed that Sothe needs no favoritism to be usable throughout the game outside of DB Paragon regulation, but she's forced into part 4 and endgame anyways.

...Anyone think Sothe belongs in top tier? ;;>> I mean he is comparing to Volug in some ways...

[Ether]

I'm not saying ike isn't more likely to be used, because he is, but saying we're automatically using Ike because he's forced isn't true for the same reason we don't assign negative utility to bad forced units.

There are also other situations, such as Ike supporting Soren. It's faster than IkexMia, provides better bonuses and Soren appreciates the support nearly as much as Mia does. Mia isn't the only person wanting an Earth support on the GMs you know.

Adept is pretty similar in the sense that a lot of other characters want it. There are several characters who double, but don't consistently ORKO, such as Shinon, Ulki, Janaff, Ranulf, Nephenee. Even if they don't use it quite as well as Mia, their performance still improves considerably with it and this hsouldn't be ignored.

Basically, even when you're "doritos" there are still signficant opportunity costs involved and you guys seem to be applying them to other characters far more than to Mia.

Narga already Nuked IkeXSoren,don't bother,and ike doesn't need Soren's avoid,while Mia's hit helps him later on.Soren is also Mid tier,you can't just say "well Mia can't support Ike cause Soren wants it" it's just not much of a factor at all.

A second adept can be obtained either in 3-2 or 3-7,and we get another in 3-11.it's not like a speedwing.Besides,Shinon can ORKO pretty well,he has +4 strength over Mia at base and has stronger weapons,and he only uses it on player phase.

Janaff can ORKO quite a few things,and can get tear without a massive BEXP dump,it's still big,but manageable.

Ulki would prefer an energy drop over adept.

Ranulf would like to maintain some gauge,clearing space isn't the best idea for him.

Neph might be competition for it,but the opportunity cost isn't as big as Ti's wing or gat's crown.

[grandjackal]

He's not Ike awesome ;;>> No way in hell would I contest that. Just bottom of top is all I'm saying.

[Ether]

He's not Ike awesome ;;>> No way in hell would I contest that. Just bottom of top is all I'm saying.

His part 4 is pretty bad though,i would say that's enough to keep him out of top.

Also,I read that as top of bottom for a second.

[Florete]

It may be rediculous, but does anyone disagree with Sothe>Titania?

In fact, I've noticed that Sothe needs no favoritism to be usable throughout the game outside of DB Paragon regulation, but she's forced into part 4 and endgame anyways.

...Anyone think Sothe belongs in top tier? ;;>> I mean he is comparing to Volug in some ways...

I don't disagree with Sothe > Titania, but Sothe in Top is too much. That needs to be for the characters who start amazing and are consistently good for the rest of existence. I think Sothe's part 4 is overblown at times, but it definitely doesn't qualify as "good" either.

And Sothe's a guy.

There are also other situations, such as Ike supporting Soren. It's faster than IkexMia, provides better bonuses and Soren appreciates the support nearly as much as Mia does. Mia isn't the only person wanting an Earth support on the GMs you know.

Adept is pretty similar in the sense that a lot of other characters want it. There are several characters who double, but don't consistently ORKO, such as Shinon, Ulki, Janaff, Ranulf, Nephenee. Even if they don't use it quite as well as Mia, their performance still improves considerably with it and this hsouldn't be ignored.

Basically, even when you're "doritos" there are still signficant opportunity costs involved and you guys seem to be applying them to other characters far more than to Mia.

Your last paragraph is the biggest issue. Opportunity costs. I do believe Interceptor has shown time and time again that giving Adept and/or Ike support to anyone else has a greater opportunity cost than giving them to Mia. Such as with Ike supporting Soren, it's 7 avoid vs. 8 Hit, matched movement and weapons. Ike doesn't really need the extra avoid, but the Hit can be useful with ranged weapons, Mia has an easier time keeping up (and staying up due to better durability), she can trade with him for weapons, and she's also more likely to go to Endgame because of the nature of the classes.

As for Adept, we might get an extra one from Zihark, which would mean we have two, and then the CRK's bring another for 3-11, so even though Mia might miss out on it for a couple maps, she can still take it for quite a while. Ulki and Janaff are the only ones with consistently higher activation rates, and Ranulf ties until Mia promotes.

[grandjackal]

Offensively perhaps, but he is pulling similar avoid to Zihark with a bit better durability;;>> Bane makes him rather potluck. He could ORKO at times with even the most basic of weapons, but then again he could flub. Either way, Bane will always at least make it easy enough for anyone to kill anything he Bane'd. That and it's great to have a counter against dragon range. He may not be spectacular part 4, but then again Volug's not god mode by any means either ;;>> Both are decent in their ways, but you get what I'm saying. Basically, Bane gives him the opportunity to ORKO anything, as long as he is able to do at least 1 damage.

@Red Fox-Whether he's a man or not does not make SothexVolug any less hotter.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

Offensively perhaps, but he is pulling similar avoid to Zihark ;;>> Bane makes him rather potluck. He could ORKO at times with even the most basic of weapons, but then again he could flub. Either way, Bane will always at least make it easy enough for anyone to kill anything he Bane'd. That and it's great to have a counter against dragon range. He may not be spectacular part 4, but then again Volug's not god mode by any means either ;;>> Both are decent in their ways, but you get what I'm saying. Basically, Bane gives him the opportunity to ORKO anything, as long as he is able to do at least 1 damage.

You keep assuming Sothe is supporting Earth.Why break his Micky support,especially when Mt is one of his biggest issues later on.Bane also only has a skill/2 activation rate.

[Interceptor]

There is an opportunity cost for everything that one gives to Mia, even though she is stomping tons of people (non-doublers), cleanly beating most of the rest (Nephenee, Ike), and there are other Adepts availible for when she's outmatched (hawks). Anyone who claims otherwise does not understand the argument.

This is not about Mia getting freebies, nor about denying Titania a defensive option and comparing one with favoritism vs. one without, which is retarded. This is about Titania's defensive situation being not as likely as Mia's.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

I don't disagree with Sothe > Titania, but Sothe in Top is too much. That needs to be for the characters who start amazing and are consistently good for the rest of existence. I think Sothe's part 4 is overblown at times, but it definitely doesn't qualify as "good" either.

And Sothe's a guy.

Sothe DOES have a subtle advantage though. Basically he's got better durability than Zihark, and can easily be doing around the same damage with a weaker weapon type. He's got access to Peshkatz and Baselard, of which have no competition outside of Volke. So what is his advantage? Volke doesn't even need those weapons. Assassinate allows him to basically kill anything on random chance. He'd like em for like Spirits and Auras, but otherwise he's fine with just whatever you hand him. You could bring Sothe and Volke, without complaint. He's forced regardless, and having what is basically a second Zihark around is always nice. As a note, him and Volug are bound to have the same STR by tier 4, unless you can explain how he got 8 levels. Volug may have powerful melee strike, more durability due to HP (but Sothe might actually have more defense and will have plenty more resistance), and Sothe's got access to forges and range.

Sothe may be a guy, but he's still hot as hell. Him and Volug deserve to be in the same tier just for that.

You keep assuming Sothe is supporting Earth.Why break his Micky support,especially when Mt is one of his biggest issues later on.Bane also only has a skill/2 activation rate.

Why keep it? He does better with Earth than ANOTHER EARTH SUPPORT. Yeesh, why does he want that auto A with Michaiah so bad that it would deter him from a goddamned Earth support? Just forge him something if it pains you so bad. Not that he needs to forge part 3. I hardly doubt he'd care to do so either part 1.

Did not know that about Bane though. It just makes him activating it twice in a round less likely though.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

Breaking MicaiahxSothe actually isn't a bad idea at all. Micaiah has one of only two offense boosting affinities in the DB, and plenty of people want that, including all 3 of our Earth partners. I've shown in one of my debates I think how Earth support can save Micaiah in times of peril, though that might run into the same issues as IkexSoren, so I won't expand on that. Point is, a lot of people want +MT, only one person can get Leo, and he might not even be in play.

As for Sothe, Earth helps him quite a bit for sure, but he is no way guaranteed it either. It could be argued he has a good case for Nolan since Nolan often has Hit issues for quite a while and Wind also boosts avoid a bit, in addition to being forced to Endgame so you'd just need to raise Nolan to a respecrable level. But then Nolan would also be forced to Micaiah's route, and without Paragon he might not be up to par come Endgame, and then Sothe would be left supportless.

Volug's even more shaky. Volug doesn't want anything Sothe has to offer. Sending him to Micaiah's route is less of a problem since Volug is rather good there, but that's about it. Volug would prefer almost anyone else, especially Micaiah and Jill (+def > +hit).

In the end, the breaking of MicaiahxSothe hurts Sothe more than helps.

[Ether]

I don't disagree with Sothe > Titania, but Sothe in Top is too much. That needs to be for the characters who start amazing and are consistently good for the rest of existence. I think Sothe's part 4 is overblown at times, but it definitely doesn't qualify as "good" either.

And Sothe's a guy.

Sothe DOES have a subtle advantage though. Basically he's got better durability than Zihark, and can easily be doing around the same damage with a weaker weapon type. He's got access to Peshkatz and Baselard, of which have no competition outside of Volke. So what is his advantage? Volke doesn't even need those weapons. Assassinate allows him to basically kill anything on random chance. He'd like em for like Spirits and Auras, but otherwise he's fine with just whatever you hand him. You could bring Sothe and Volke, without complaint. He's forced regardless, and having what is basically a second Zihark around is always nice.

You keep assuming Sothe is supporting Earth.Why break his Micky support,especially when Mt is one of his biggest issues later on.Bane also only has a skill/2 activation rate.

Why keep it? He does better with Earth than ANOTHER EARTH SUPPORT. Yeesh, why does he want that auto A with Michaiah so bad that it would deter him from a goddamned Earth support? Just forge him something if it pains you so bad. Not that he needs to forge part 3. I hardly doubt he'd care to do so either part 1.

Did not know that about Bane though. It just makes him activating it twice in a round less likely though.

Who are you trying to support him with anyway?Just so i know.

Also,Fox,are you going to move Mia > Titania?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Ether

[grandjackal]

Supporting him with Nolan.

As for hurting more than helping, it only hurts if Nolan can't be usable endgame. Rrrr...Seems Red Fox killed me on this one. Well in exchange, he could just go back to Michaiah. She's forced as well. Losing 11 avoid hurts, but he gains might in exchange. That and Michaiah's supports are always changing, I don't think she'd mind her bitch coming back to her...

Paragon hurts anyone who uses it though for the DB. There's only one. Needless to say, we're using it on someone, might as well be the guy who's forced. No one said we had to use Nolan up until Endgame. Sothe's advantage is he can use it far longer than most DB units outside of hawtness Volug and pretty boi Zihark.

...Notice how most of the awesome DB units are sexy bastards, or are Nolan with his awesome facial hair?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky