OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

Well, aside from Int saying he's lucky to be in High. I think that's a definite "no" from him on the Sothe in top front.

Damn straight it's a "no". If we were doing Part tier lists again, I'd vote him Top of Part 1, but the fact of the matter is he just doesn't do well in an all-encompassing list.

[Florete]

I'll likely end up making the move anyway, but I also wouldn't want that epic novel of yours to go to waste, so perhaps you could post it anyway. Just for fun.

Edit for clarity: That was directed at Narga for Sanaki > Pelleas.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, aside from Int saying he's lucky to be in High. I think that's a definite "no" from him on the Sothe in top front.

Damn straight it's a "no". If we were doing Part tier lists again, I'd vote him Top of Part 1, but the fact of the matter is he just doesn't do well in an all-encompassing list.

I was intentionally understating. I thought it sounded more fun the way I wrote it.

Was by no means saying Pelleas was better ;;>> Just saying...is all, I guess.

True, you did say: "but..Who cares about either at this point?"

They are things to not be ignored though, yes.

As for Sothe, it's one guy who disagrees. You disagreeing too Narga? *runs for bomb shelter*

Well, Ether wanted Mia > Sothe. I disagree with Sothe in top, too, just not strongly enough to bother right now. It's two votes against. Well, one vote against, and one vote of "#%^#$@@%%$ NO!".

I'll likely end up making the move anyway, but I also wouldn't want that epic novel of yours to go to waste, so perhaps you could post it anyway. Just for fun.

Edit for clarity: That was directed at Narga for Sanaki > Pelleas.

Might as well

No changes from the original:

To go away from the Naesala thing, and about as far away from the high tier talk from a day or two ago as possible:

Sanaki > Pelleas.

First off, supports:

Light vs. Water. Seems like a win for Pelleas, right? Except neither has any useful accelerated supports, at least not for endgame. If you push it, Sanaki could have a C Sigrun for 4-3, but considering Sigrun could have a B Tanith by now easily, it's probably not happening, especially since B Tanith is far easier to pull off than C Sanaki. However, she at least gets a chapter bonus for 4-P, and he doesn't for 4-2. 7 adjacents in 2 chapters is much easier to pull off than 12 adjacents in 2 chapters. Since neither has any accelerated supports that are viable for endgame (well, Sanaki x Micaiah, but she'd have to break an established support, and that just helps Sanaki further since it now takes only 5 adjacents) getting Sanaki a C for 4-E-1 is much easier. Also, while 2mt >>> 8hit for most of the game, in endgame it's not so clear cut. Still slightly better, except Pelleas may not ever reach A and Sanaki could get there easier, so 1mt > 8hit in endgame with high avo enemies? Maybe not.

Reliability:

Sanaki has 33 magic and 22 skill and 32 luck. Pelleas has 24 magic, 20 skill, 14 luck, and access to just dark and thunder.

She has base 22 x 2 + 32 = 76 hit.

He has base 20 x 2 + 14 + 20 = 74 hit. He has less hit even with Tibarn's authority stars.

She has access to her cymbeline with 45 uses while almost never doubling anything, just dragons. It should last fine. She also has access to wind for no AS loss. Both have 95 hit.

Wind: 37 mt with 171 hit.

Cymbeline: 46 mt with 171 hit and 20 AS, also 21 crit.

Pelleas just has dark and thunder. Can't even get wyrm for 4-2, so he's stuck with:

Carreau, 10 mt, 70 hit, 5 crit.

Fenrir, 9 mt, 60 hit, 20 wt, 5 uses, another 5 in 4-5.

Verrine, 12 mt, 65 hit.

Also, E to A thunder stuff:

80 hit, 3 mt thunder, 5 crit.

75 hit, 5 mt elthunder, 10 crit.

60 hit, 6 mt bolting, 5 crit. (Probably don't have one)

70 hit, 7 mt Thoron, 15 crit.

If he gets a max mt, max hit thunder, he'd have:

32 mt, 179 hit.

If she takes a max mt, max hit fire (cheaper than his), she'd have:

43 mt, 191 hit.

If he picks up a dark tome to get more mt and she takes Wind,

he has 34 mt, 144 hit with Carreau

36 mt, 139 hit with Verrine.

She has:

37 mt, 171 hit with wind and 23 AS vs. his 21 AS.

46 mt, 171 hit with Cymbeline, but 20 AS.

At the beginning, her offence is significantly better than his. With forges, she simply does not miss. Even on worst, she has 181 hit and enemies in 4-P do not top 80 avo and are all stuck on neutral bio. On bad, he could actually miss, though it isn't likely. More importantly, she has 11 more mt than him, and her growth is 60% to his 55%, which doesn't counteract his lower level as far as growing is concerned, but he does cap tier 2 at 26 awful quickly, so he'd still lose to base Sanaki by 9. With forges, he's likely not able to finish off enemies if a unit that doesn't double hits it, since it probably has more hp left than what 32 mt can cause. Also, even some units that double but have somewhat low mt may not be able to cause enough for him. Sanaki doesn't have that issue.

Give him a dark tome to offset that, and he's sitting at low enough hit rates that missing is frequent enough to be a concern. Even still, his 36 mt with Verrine may still not be enough at times.

So if we make him accurate, he might not kill, and if we make him a little stronger, he might not hit.

Durability:

Much has been made about Sanaki being extra squishy. However, she has 23 spd and 28 hp and 10 def. An enemy needs either >= 27 spd or >= 38 mt to ORKO her. Number of units in 4-P: 5 + 3 reinforcements + 1 boss. 5 of them have >= 38 mt, 3 have >= 27 spd, but those are swordmaster reinforcements, and the boss has a brave. She also has 32 luck so only swordmasters can actually crit her, but they ORKO her anyway. Well, also any killing weapon users. Even snipers in 4-3 can't critblick her.

Pelleas has 33 hp, 21 spd, 14 luck, 14 def

It takes 47 mt to OHKO him, and that doesn't appear until he should have more levels. But it takes 25 spd to double him and only 31 mt to 2HKO him.

Number of units in 4-2: 9 + 3 reinforcements. So there are 12 units that can ORKO Pelleas and only 8 that can ORKO Sanaki. Almost everything else is 2RKOing the both of them. But, he can be criticalled by warriors, halbs, and snipers. And there's at least one sniper that was doubling without managing a 2HKO. And Swordmasters all have massive crit on him, so while Sanaki could actually let one attack her on enemy phase if it's injured enough for her to KO and with just daunt or an ashera icon or a few levels can finish it off without fear of death. It's a little specific a situation, but it's still better than what he can do. So aside from having more enemies able to ORKO him, he's also more likely to be instablicked. Pelleas isn't just a little more squishy, he's significantly more squishy.

So he's more squishy in 4-2 than she is in 4-P, and she has lots more mt, considering knocking 1 wt off a fire forge to maintain 23 spd for her still leaves it cheaper than his thunder forge. 43 mt vs. 32 mt. Then she's immune to bio and he's technically not. Without forges, she still has 37 mt with a wind tome and crushes his hit rate. Also, since Pelleas isn't in the 4-2 base giving him a forge requires possibly losing a unit's player phase to get it to him. Also, that 46 mt OHKOs everything not a warrior if she flares, and 22% is not negligible. And she spends turns 2, 3, and 4 at best bio, and 32% is definitely not negligible. And if we had let her get attacked on enemy phase (lots of things have 23 AS or less so she can even frequently use Cymbeline without worry) then if she pulls off a flare she'll fully heal and can be attacked again and didn't need healing. And she has a small chance to crit, but 21% vs. 18 to 20 luck is rather small and incredibly unreliable. Like, 1 out of 10 people will see her crit once in 4-P if she attacks with it 8 or so times. I didn't bother calculating, but the point is it's not common enough to count on. Flare is, though. At least once, probably twice, on average during the map. Not everyone, but over half the people playing will likely see flare at least once, and around half or more likely twice.

Then comes the issue of crowning. Without a crown, Pelleas is not promoting until midway through 4-5, since 8 levels without paragon in 4-2 when you are this bad is not happening. Not within 10 turns, anyway. Anything less than 8 levels and he's not likely to get the bexp to promote him. Too costly. So he needs us to hold a crown for him until 4-5. That crown could have been put to use earlier by almost anyone else. There's only 5, and lots of units can be crowned around level 17 or 18 for big short term gains and small long term losses. Also, there's the cases like Gatrie in 3-3 and speedwing Haar in 3-8 (3-6 crown) to consider. He comes out of it with staff rank B, so he's not far from being able to use Rescue and a little further from fortify, but the main draw, physics, are already usable. Still, he'll be inferior to other healing choices at this point, anyway, and still be relying on that 8 mt, 105 hit thunder forge since using anything else risks missing, since his stronger weapons have 70 hit, 65 hit, and 75 hit.

In 4-5, he can blick dragons with dragonfoe, sure, but if he's actually going to endgame then he's not exactly trouncing them without spending most of his fenrirs, meaning he'd have nothing for range bombing in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 since there would be only 1 or 2 uses remaining and he'd need to preserve 1 for blessing if he wants it. But if he wants his SS blessed, then he's also going without range bombing in 4-E-3 and beyond. The only reason he's so good at dragon blicking in a normal playthrough is since he doesn't go to 4-E. It's basically free since the fenrirs sell for so little so you might as well burn through them. A Pelleas that does not go to endgame does not stand a chance vs. Sanaki.

So, in 4-3, Sanaki is now ORKOd by more, and even a level 16 Pelleas is significantly less squishy. I don't see a unit this bad in 4-2 with no paragon access getting above level 16. With only 34.4 hp and 15.2 def, though, those level 25 tigers that appear to have 49 mt could end up OHKOing him. If any of those level 24 tigers have 49 mt instead of 47 (it says 48, but that's impossible so some should be 49 and some should be 47) then they might OHKO him too.

Giving him a crown he doesn't deserve, since we are using him and want him to do something, means 16/1 and he'll survive. 38.4 hp, 19.2 def. Even the reds likely don't OHKO, since it takes 57 mt.

He's still 2RKOd by tigers and ravens (they still double), but at least he's no longer 2RKOd by cats and hawks, and is 3RKOd. He's better than Sanaki thanks to the crown, but since he didn't deserve the crown, she could arguably get something she doesn't deserve either. The best part for her though is that she doesn't need to take something she doesn't deserve. Most enemies have 2 move in 4-3. The dragonmasters can easily be avoided if she stays out of their range, and since they only have 48 or 49 hp and 12 res, a Sanaki with a forged thunder causes extreme pain and leaves them with so little hp they can easily be finished off. With 33 magic, she's 27 away from an instablick on 3 of them, so a Thoron actually does it. Gets the others after 2 levels, as well. Since Pelleas may need an arms scroll to get to use Balberith in a reasonably amount of time, or to use fortify, I don't particularly see an issue with getting her S thunder. She needs 5 levels to be able to do it with a forged thunder. Additionally, if that thunder forge just happens to have pulled +1 mt with a coin, well now she OHKOs them all at level 3 and 3 out of 8 at base. Not extremely likely, but there. Also, the two reinforcements are of the 48 hp variety, so they are also OHKOd by base level Sanaki with Thoron or a +6 thunder forge. Anyway, that's really just icing, since as mentioned she leaves them with little enough already. The sages wondering around cause her enough damage that another enemy unit could KO her, but considering there's only 2 and the two of them combined can't KO her, it doesn't matter since that's all the high move enemies already. The rest are a cinch thanks to strategy. She attacks from 2 range, another unit KOs. Or something like Skrimir weakened on enemy phase, and she KOs. Either way, the enemies aren't really a concern since you likely don't even have to wall to prevent her from getting attacked. Even if you did need to wall (maybe once or twice the entire map), since they only have 2 move it generally takes just one unit to wall. She's still less squishy here, considering in 4-5 those things have 9 move through reeds and thickets so Pelleas generally needs 2 or 3 units to wall. And those ravens and hawks can fly.

So she might as well be less squishy in 4-3 than he is in 4-5, and a 16/1 Pelleas only has:

38.4 hp, 18 str, 28 mag, 23.8 skl, 25.4 spd, 15.6 luck, 19.2 def, 22.8 res. (funny note, the boss, a magic user, can OHKO Pelleas thanks to crit.)

So Pelleas still only has 36 mt with his thunder forge, and only has 24 x 2 + 15 + 20 = 83 hit, possibly 84 hit. 189 hit with his forge, though, and 184 at bad (Pelleas doesn't have worst or best).

154 with Carreau. 38 mt.

149 with Verrine, 40 mt.

144 with Fenrir, 37 mt, 55 mt with "something"foe against "something".

Easily ORKOs dragons with fenrir and dragonfoe, though. Doesn't double anything else with it, though.

Still, she's clearly better in both 4-P and 4-3 than he is in 4-2 and 4-5. Even having physics in 4-5 doesn't make up for it, not when she can allow almost anyone to KO something without facing a counter, and can finish just about anything off if something weakened it on player phase. It's even easier to let her do these things in 4-3 than him in 4-5, thanks to desert and her 6 move to enemy's 2.

And she can be shoved by a poodle, if anyone cares. Pelleas is still slowed down by thickets and swamp in 4-5, in fact only goes 1 square in the swamp and has 2 move left over for land movements. Which means one thicket + one swamp or two grass + 1 swamp. And he has 9 wt, so a few sages can't shove him. Still, he can be shoved by most, so it isn't a huge advantage.

Then in 4-E-1, lets say level 16/5 for Pelleas, thanks to dragon blicking and being able to cause 50% damage to most enemies. Maybe 2 uses of Fenrir remaining, though, after using 8 uses from doubling 4 dragons.

16/5 Pelleas:

39.8 hp, 19 str, 30.2 mag, 25.6 skl, 27.8 spd, 17.2 luck, 20.4 def, 24.6 res.

26 x 2 + 17 + 15 = 84 hit.

28 x 2 + 17 + 15 = 88 avo.

Level 7 Sanaki, though really, if Pelleas could get 4 levels in 4-2 and 4 levels in 4-5 I should likely give her more.

32.2 hp, 4.4 str, 36.6 mag, 25.6 skl, 25.1 spd, 35.3 luck, 11.8 def, 31 res.

26 x 2 + 35 + 15 = 102 hit.

25 x 2 + 35 + 15 = 100 avo. 98 with cymbeline.

So she's not doubled by anything in 4-E-1 while wielding anything of wt 4 or less. Meaning elwind, which has 6 mt, can be wielded for 42.6 mag with no AS loss. Also, there's only 2 snipers, and they'd both OHKO her anyway, so she might as well pick up her Cymbeline.

She needs a C something now, and he has nothing. Hmm. 1 def, 3 hit. OHKOd by 45 mt but not 44. Adds maybe 3 or 4 enemies to her safe list. Don't know what unit might take her, so I'll leave the other half of her support empty.

Balberith: 45 mt, 159 hit. 154 on bad. enemies hover around 80 avo, so he's got 80 listed on neutral, and 75 listed on bad. 92.2% and 87.75%. Not a huge miss chance, but it's there.

Cymbeline: 49.6 mt, 197 + 3 hit. 187 + 3 on worst. bio proof.

They have the same crit.

She smokes him by ~12 mt if he picks up a forged thunder in order to not miss, and his other options are inferior to balberith in terms of hit or inferior to a forged thunder in terms of mt.

She is borderline on OHKOing with flare since 49.6 mt is almost 50. Interesting story: standing next to Ena while holding Rexflame gives the same 24 AS as Cymbeling without Ena.

(25 - (5 - 4)) = 24, (25 - (13 - (4 + 5)) + 3) = 24. With rexflame, she has 50.6 and comes rather close to the 51 required to OHKO a lot more of them. Only misses 5 out of 30 of the starting generals.

Also, she 2 hits the lot of them, or comes rather close. If you can find her a +mt support she's golden. Well, when she flares. Ena increases either of their flare chances from 25.6% to 30.6%. Sanaki can have best so could actually reach 40.6%, while Pelleas can't get above 35.6% and will not be OHKOing with it anyway.

Sanaki clearly wins offence, and Pelleas is 2 rounded by just about everything, since >= 40 mt is rather constant. Also, sages pack enough punch to put him into KO range for almost everything. Since Sanaki already was in KO range for most things, sages don't mean much to her. At best, Pelleas can have a bit of enemy phase, but it's still not big. Also, thunder sages are borderline 3HKOing him with non-negligible crit. Well, the arcthunder guys, anyway. The Thoron guy is definitely 3HKOing him, but it's 2% crit. Pelleas actually doubles some sages and bishops, but it's not as if he's ORKOing them anyway. Pelleas 3 hits a bunch of them, but Sanaki 2 hits all but the bishops. Pelleas 4 hits those, so 2 RKO better than 3 RKO on them, but it's bishops. Also, Pelleas 3HKOs (3 rounds) generals, while she 2 hits most, as I said.

Pelleas has healing, but honestly he took a crown and possibly arms scrolls and all he has on her is a little bit of durability and healing.

4-E-2:

Give 4 levels to Pelleas, and 3 to Sanaki. They are fairly low leveled compared to the enemies, and Sanaki at least can give a good whack to help out another unit. Pelleas can most of the time, but not for all other units. He might get in a couple of enemy phases, so that ups his level. Also, 22 exp physics is likely more than she gets if she's giving the first hit rather than the KO on an enemy.

16/9 Pelleas:

41.2 hp, 20 str, 32.4 mag, 27.4 skl, 30.2 spd, 18.8 luck, 21.6 def, 26.4 res.

27 x 2 + 19 + 15 = 88 hit.

30 x 2 + 19 + 15 = 94 avo.

Level 10 Sanaki

34.3 hp, 5.6 str, 38.4 mag, 27.4 skl, 26.15 spd, 36.95 luck, 12.7 def, 32.5 res.

27 x 2 + 37 + 15 = 106 hit.

26 x 2 + 37 + 15 = 104 avo.

So Pelleas may have a C something, though like Sanaki it's assuming somebody that was in his early part 4 chapters needed a support.

Sanaki still only has C.

Sanaki has 13.7 def and 109 hit, Pelleas has 33.4 mag and 22.6 def, effectively.

Balberith: 47+1 mt, 163 hit. 158 on bad. enemies hover around 80 avo again, though warriors for example are around 83, halbs 81, and swordmasters 93. So he's only got 65 listed (75.85% true) on them.

Cymbeline: 51 mt, 201 + 3 hit. 191 + 3 on worst. bio proof, even on swordmasters.

Pelleas can double the boss, but won't KO even with fenrir and even if he hits twice. If we have bolting, it's the same hit but lower mt, so he may as well use fenrir. Only 42 mt even with a support. Small chance of 43. Also, he only has 148 hit against the boss' 71 avo. Then on the second hit resolve activates (after the attack was initiated, so he still attacks twice) and the boss has 95 avo. The first hit only has 77 listed and the second hit has 53 listed. 89.65% true followed by 56.29%. A little over 50% chance of causing ~56 damage, though he'd have two shots at flare, but even with flare he still must hit both times. Still, more than Sanaki has. She won't double without a wing and flare alone won't do it for her. Still, he's not KOing it anyway most of the time. 23.57% at neutral bio.

As for the rest, it only takes 44 mt to 2HKO Pelleas with a support (if I round up 21.6+1), and 48 mt to OHKO Sanaki (w/ support). Swordmasters don't double Pelleas, but still 3HKO him with huge crit rates. Only the wo dao guy doesn't 3HKO. Aside from those swordmasters that double her, though, she's only OHKOd by one guy (boss doesn't count). That's not bad, considering Pelleas faces 6% hit rates from the halbs that 3HKO him, 2% from the Warriors that 2HKO him just like her, 20% crit rates from the swordmasters that ORKO her, 14 and 15% crit rates from the snipers that 2RKO each of them, but could easiliy OHKO him.

In all, she actually wins durability again, since being 2HKOd with 0% crit rates against is better even than 3HKOd with crit rates, because it's more reliable and we know in advance what it takes to kill her. At least, as far as reliability is concerned she wins. Plus she has more avo, still. 10 avo isn't huge, though.

She still OHKOs many things with Flare he doesn't, but at least he's 2RKOing things like she is. A few generals are ORKOd by Pelleas, though. Still, they about tie here.

4-E-3:

Let's say, 1 level each for 4-E-2, since we are supposed to do it somewhat quickly.

16/10 Pelleas:

41.55 hp, 20.25 str, 32.95 mag, 27.85 skl, 30.8 spd, 19.2 luck, 21.9 def, 26.85 res.

28 x 2 + 19 + 15 = 90 hit.

31 x 2 + 19 + 15 = 96 avo.

Level 11 Sanaki

35 hp, 6 str, 39 mag, 28 skl, 26.5 spd, 37.5 luck, 13 def, 33 res.

28 x 2 + 37.5 + 15 = ~108 hit.

26.5 x 2 + 37.5 + 15 = 105 avo.

Let's see, Purge weighs 16, Dragons have 12 speed...

Also, Sanaki has a B support now for +5 hit.

She has 44 mt with purge and 193 hit. Dragons have significantly less than 80 avo, so she's bio proof for hitting dragons twice.

She causes 48 damage to reds, leaving them with ~30 hp left. Allowing ~52 mt to kill with a double.

She only causes <20 to whites, though, but since their def is somewhat low it means it only takes ~52 mt to KO them with a double afterwards. Helpful for lots of units that didn't ORKO before.

Pelleas with his 60 hit options has 150 hit. 145 on bad, dragons have 63 avo which can get to 73. In the worst case, he has 72 listed, 84.6% true, and only a ~71.6% chance of actually hitting twice. In better cases, he could have 155 hit against 53 avo and not miss ever, and on average has 150 vs. 63 and 87% listed for 96.75% true, and ~93.6% chance of hitting twice.

She's bio proof.

Again.

Even with a C support and Fenrir, he only has 43 mt anyway, which is good enough, but to use it repeatedly he'd need to have it blessed, which means no Balberith.

If bolting exists, it gets blessed, and then they can trade it around. Sanaki needs to stand next to Ena to double, but if she does she's way better. 58 mt vs. 52 mt. She does 76 damage to reds and may actually kill some, and will kill if she has a +mt supporter at just C level. Pelleas won't be. Also, more damage to whites. Until you go after Deg, what else is Ena doing? Sanaki can even use Ena before Ena moves, so if she goes elsewhere for another unit to attack it doesn't stop Sanaki.

4-E-4

I'm getting tired of this. Enemy avo went up, Pelleas misses more, Sanaki has enough res not to care about getting doubled and takes the same damage as Pelleas from wind spirits and less from the others. Neither double, though Pelleas can double them with Nasir. Sanaki might double thunders with Nasir. Sanaki actually ORKOs thunders with Purge and Nasir and both blood tides if she has 27 spd, thanks to 39 + 5 + 5 = 49 mt vs. 38 hp and 30 res. Pelleas won't be ORKOing even with blessed Fenrir. Sanaki does > 50% damage with a single shot of Cymbeline anyway and it's really all anybody needs to finish the KO even if the spirit is on a cover tile. Pelleas does worse if he doesn't hang around Nasir, slightly better if he blessed Fenrir instead of Balberith because it's easy to hang around Nasir with a ranged tome. But then his offence kinda blows the rest of the time compared to hers since he's stuck with a forged thunder if he doesn't want to break Balberith.

4-E-5

Now his hit issues are even bigger, and she may actually miss once in a while but still does rather well compared to a lot of other units, especially him. Also, if he blessed Fenrir, he might as well not even attempt to attack an Aura with it and will have to hope someone blessed a forged thunder with hit. She could have blessed Cymbeline, but if she didn't she might be attacking the auras with purge, but she'd still have way more hit than him thanks to more skill, way more luck, and purge has 5 more hit than Balberith and 20 more hit than Fenrir or Bolting.

Thoughout all of this, Pelleas has staves. But he also took a crown, and a slot. Sanaki was free. The most important part, though, is that in Pelleas' free chapters she's better than he is, especially since the most efficient way of playing the game does not involve giving him a crown for 4-5 alone if he's not going to endgame. He's never significantly more durable, either, thanks to crit fear. 4-E-1 is really the only chapter in which he wins durability in such a way that can be used to significant advantage.

Sure he's got staves, but we have Micaiah and could have units like Elincia that can perform emergency healing, also Soren and Ilyana are better in endgame and have all the advantages sages have here, and can actually reach the point of ORKOing spirits in 4-E-4 and have much more accurate weapons. Honestly, his staff usage shouldn't be enough to counteract her offence or her 4-P/3 over his 4-2/5. Or his crown usage and slot usage. Sanaki doesn't have to hurt efficiency in order to be good, Pelleas does.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

That was well-done. I particularly liked the excruciating details about how bad Pelleas' HIT really is.

[grandjackal]

In fact, anyone think he could go to bottom? He could have staffs after you level him a bit AND crown him, but anyone not Sanaki could use staffs by now. Hell, we got people who start off able to use staffs. By now, even the bottomers can't be so bad in combat that they're missing like Pelleas is...

[Narga_Rocks]

In fact, anyone think he could go to bottom? He could have staffs after you level him a bit AND crown him, but anyone not Sanaki could use staffs by now. Hell, we got people who start off able to use staffs. By now, even the bottomers can't be so bad in combat that they're missing like Pelleas is...

I'll look into it. Astrid has access to Silencers and a wicked luck growth, and the same skl growth. She's certainly be more accurate. Trouble is her str growth/base and spd growth/base. I think Pelleas might be better enough to validate the tier gap. Plus, Sanaki isn't that much better than Pelleas that it warrants a tier gap. Well, it depends on how the crown is looked at. There should be some massive opportunity costs, there. Without the "early" crown, Sanaki may very well be that much better.

[-Cynthia-]

I think we're overestimating Pelleas's crowning slightly. Holding onto the 3-12 crown doesn't have too many negatives for the DB, since Taur is the only real candidate and he does fine anyway. Everyone else should be tier 3(or very close) by Part 4 anyway.

[Colonel M]

I think we're overestimating Pelleas's crowning slightly. Holding onto the 3-12 crown doesn't have too many negatives for the DB, since Taur is the only real candidate and he does fine anyway. Everyone else should be tier 3(or very close) by Part 4 anyway.

Someone like Nolan can use it to get +2 Spd and other stats much easier, or increase Ziharks crit precentages, etc. There are some benefits to letting the DB using it.

[-Cynthia-]

Someone like Nolan can use it to get +2 Spd and other stats much easier, or increase Ziharks crit precentages, etc. There are some benefits to letting the DB using it.

We end up screwing over a lot of their long term potential though, which is a lot of what they had going for the.

[Colonel M]

Not true. Like I said, 1-E's Speedwing on Nolan can go a fair distance since he naturally caps 4 stats and Spd is the nearest one to cap after that. Then it's only HP, Str, Def, and Luck that have to bite at it BEXP-wise.

[-Cynthia-]

Not true. Like I said, 1-E's Speedwing on Nolan can go a fair distance since he naturally caps 4 stats and Spd is the nearest one to cap after that. Then it's only HP, Str, Def, and Luck that have to bite at it BEXP-wise.

If we dump the Speedwing on Nolan, then the GMs can't use it during Part 3, and Nolan isn't very effective with it during Part 3. He can avoid getting doubled by cats, but he has trouble even doubling tigers.

[Colonel M]

Not true. Like I said, 1-E's Speedwing on Nolan can go a fair distance since he naturally caps 4 stats and Spd is the nearest one to cap after that. Then it's only HP, Str, Def, and Luck that have to bite at it BEXP-wise.

If we dump the Speedwing on Nolan, then the GMs can't use it during Part 3, and Nolan isn't very effective with it during Part 3. He can avoid getting doubled by cats, but he has trouble even doubling tigers.

Let's not make it a GM's favorfest. I won't deny that it has the chance of being passed, but that doesn't suddenly freeze Nolan from obtaining it. In fact, you just answered a reason TO give it to him.

[-Cynthia-]

Let's not make it a GM's favorfest. I won't deny that it has the chance of being passed, but that doesn't suddenly freeze Nolan from obtaining it. In fact, you just answered a reason TO give it to him.

The issue has to do with how well the characters using a Speedwing. Nolan gets less use out of it than Titania or Haar. I mean we could give the Speedwing to Laura, but she still gets doubled by just about everything, can't double and usually gets OHKOd anyway. Most characters do get a minor boost of the Speedwing, but we have to compare the relative benefit.

[Colonel M]

Let's not make it a GM's favorfest. I won't deny that it has the chance of being passed, but that doesn't suddenly freeze Nolan from obtaining it. In fact, you just answered a reason TO give it to him.

The issue has to do with how well the characters using a Speedwing. Nolan gets less use out of it than Titania or Haar. I mean we could give the Speedwing to Laura, but she still gets doubled by just about everything, can't double and usually gets OHKOd anyway. Most characters do get a minor boost of the Speedwing, but we have to compare the relative benefit.

Passing the 2-whatever Speedwing is a given. The thing is that passing the 1-E Speedwing is still likely to be passed. Though, if we're serious about using Nolan in the lategame there's not a whole lot of reasoning NOT to give it to him when you make him easier to beef up. I just hate how many of the arguments become "GMs get this and that" and the DB usually gets nothing due to it. Again, you've proven a benefit to give it to him: making his durability against Cats better and easier BEXP opportunities.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not sure what the point is of discussing the 1-E speedwing in such great depths. Assuming we want to use some DBers, they'll have a paragon, and if you only raise a small number then Nolan/Jill/Zihark could all get paragon in one chapter each in part 3. Or if only two of them are raised then one unit gets it in two. Level xx/12 to 15 coming out of part 3 means Nolan/Jill won't get doubled and Zihark still has 30 speed. Levels in 4-P/1/2 for them can get them up to level ~16 or more, and assuming they got past 50 exp before the chapter ended they could take bexp to get to level ~18 and crown. A little pain in 4-P/1/2 for still being 2nd tier, but the crowning at most might drop them by 1 point in some of their stats, and starting 4-3/4/5 in tier 2 is likely not a good idea. A crowned Nolan has 29 speed here, so he's doing okay once he gets 30 speed. Jill's 27 speed hurts, but if we plan on using her then paragon is a good idea.

Point is, though, whether Nolan has the 1-E speedwing or not, he's still a good candidate for a crown in the 4-3/4/5 base, and it's a lot faster to go from 18/1 to 18/~3 to start doubling in 4-4 or whatever than it is to go from 18 to 20/3. Significant improvement in performance, and likely higher stats throughout all of endgame anyway simply because most units don't hit xx/xx/20 anyway and he'll have better offence while trying to grow his str and def, more kills => more levels => more stats => crown doesn't hurt him. Also, his offensive improvement is significantly more than Pelleas' and as long as his durability is enough to make use of it on enemy phase a crown for him is much better for the goal of efficiency.

If this discussion originated with the question of what the cost is of crowning Pelleas, then the 1-E speedwing doesn't need this much focus.

The worst part of the whole thing for Pelleas is the timing of Bastian's appearance. Instant crowning during 4-2 would cause us to hang a unit back to give Pelleas a crown and he'd actually have to spend a turn using it. So as far as crowning in the 4-5 base goes, we have 2 healers anyway and Bastian has significantly more magic at this point as well as access to physics just like Bastian will have, and Elincia isn't useless with a physic either. She won't always need to be attacking. Also, we could have other archsages, and while they may not yet have access to physics, at least they'd have heal or possibly mend if it's really needed. So the crown for him in 4-5 isn't really a big help to 4-5 itself, since dragon blicking (with dragonfoe) can be done by base Pelleas except on a 12 AS dragon, and despite what the HM enemy stats thing says most dragons in this chapter only have 10 AS. So crowning Pelleas has no real affect in 4-5 on anything but Pelleas himself, so the crown for him is all about what he gives us in 4-E, except so many other staff wielders do better anyway.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

It's not a big deal to have a unit hang back and just have Pelleas Trade and use the Crown. We get a lot of deployment slots in Part 4 Chapters, likely more than the units we're using, just have some loser like Kyza hold it or something. Pelleas loses one turn max.

Once we crown Pelleas he's a lot like Oliver, with a slightly lower staff rank(he can still get to A pretty easily), an extra chapter(more like 2 and a half really, since Oliver shows up very late in 4-4) to build supports and gain more healing time. Pelleas isn't good obviously, but he can contribute singificantly more than the people in Bottom, due to staves.

And while other staff users might be better, this doesn't completely erase Pelleas' usefulness. If Pelleas uses Physic on a wounded ally, then Elinca is free to go attack something for instance.

Edited August 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

It's not a big deal to have a unit hang back and just have Pelleas Trade and use the Crown. We get a lot of deployment slots in Part 4 Chapters, likely more than the units we're using, just have some loser like Kyza hold it or something. Pelleas loses one turn max.

Once we crown Pelleas he's a lot like Oliver, with a slightly lower staff rank(he can still get to A pretty easily), an extra chapter(more like 2 and a half really, since Oliver shows up very late in 4-4) to build supports and gain more healing time. Pelleas isn't good obviously, but he can contribute singificantly more than the people in Bottom, due to staves.

And while other staff users might be better, this doesn't completely erase Pelleas' usefulness. If Pelleas uses Physic on a wounded ally, then Elinca is free to go attack something for instance.

I'm not sure what starting at 12/1 would do to him, though. It'd pretty much turn him into a devoted healer, I think. Just use Laura or something. Also, Pelleas has issues getting to C for 4-E-1 anyway, but I suppose a C in 4-E-2 and a B in 4-E-4 is better than Oliver's 4-E-3 and 4-E-5. But for much of endgame fire > water, at least when looking at Cs and Bs. +1 def/res starting in 4-E-2 doesn't mean a lot. +3 or +5 hit is good for reducing miss chances vs. high avo enemies.

In looking at his 4-2, I gave him 4 levels there, and 4 levels in 4-5 while starting at 16/1. If he started at 12/1, he gets a lot less experience per action (though still a fair amount if he actually kills something). He's basically relying on burning through physics to get exp and still only gets 220 if he uses physic every turn for 10 turns. And he's never particularly good at attacking, so I wonder if the 4 levels each chapter I gave him was a gift. I think he'd be lucky to reach 12/6 for endgame this way, and he's pretty bad at 16/5, which is functionally equivalent to 12/9 (minus .2 magic, but whatever). I suppose he reaches fortify faster, but Micaiah already has dibs on that. Healing in 4-2 actually would be pretty good, but I still don't see his crowning as inexpensive.

Besides, we've got CRKs as well, and other units that may just be approaching level 20. Even shaving off one level gives a fair increase in efficiency. 3 or 4 turns of having a better unit. Considering the crowned unit might be doubling now and having vastly increased enemy phase production...

I know you aren't saying it's free. After all, you only said "I think we're overestimating Pelleas's crowning slightly", so I'm assuming you still say there is a cost. I'm just not sure how high you think it is, so for all I know we might have a similar idea about the cost.

[-Cynthia-]

Basically I think any unit with staves (and a few other advantages like blicking dragons with Dragonfoe) is more on par with Low than the people in bottom. The characters in Bottom can't really do anything of much value throughout their entire existence, Pelleas can whip out a staff and Physic some people, which is way more than Meg ever did.

[Progenitus]

Why do the GMs care about stat boosters and favoritism?

They have so many godly units, you can't POSSIBLY field all of them.

Ike, Haar, Ulki, Janaff, Ranulf (well, his stats are ridiculous, and his only real flaw, the transformation gauge, can't be fixed in part 3 anyway), Gatrie, Titania, Shinon, Mordy. Mia and Oscar are pretty good too. They even have fucking Reyson for half their chapters. Half of these guys don't need *anything* at all to be ridiculous.

No, they're not overpowered like BK/Nailah/Tauroneo in DB chapters, but it doesn't matter. There are SO MANY of them that it's basically the same thing. In fact, it's even better, since someone like Nailah can't do anything to 2-range enemies on enemy phase, and if there's a hoard of them, she can only take one one a turn. If I have Janaff/Ulki, they aren't dying either, and with them you can likely take out two enemies.

The difference, of course, is that this wtfoverpoweredGMswarm lasts for 10+ chapters instead of 1-2.

Fuck, you even get Tibarn as an NPC for several chapters. And Skrimir is almost as ridiculous.

Meanwhile, the DB are the ones in deep shit with ridiculously overpowered enemies (especially relative to the jokes the GMs are facing). Volug is their best unit and his durability vs the enemies is like fucking Boyd's vs GM enemies (3-rounded by tigers, like 5 rounded by cats. Boyd is typically 3-4HKO'd, and it only gets better because of his good HP/def growths). AND Volug has to spam grasses, giving him less opportunities to heal himself. If Boyd is really worried about dying, he can spam vulneraries.

This is also ignoring that people like Boyd and Neph are more than usable. Meanwhile, once you get past the good units in the DB, they're utter crap. loledward. lolleo. lolfiona. lolmeg.

DO the GMs REALLY need to make their chapters even easier than they already are? Even if none of the GMs can solo a map, it doesn't matter. You can just overwhelm the enemies with sheer numbers, because you just have that many good units. For example, if there are three enemies nearby, and you have 10 units (Ike/Haar/Janaff/Ulki/Ranulf/Titania/Shinon/Gatrie/MOrdy is already 9, mind) PLUS Reyson, do I really need to make all of them capable of one rounding those enemies?

You say "but the GMs can use it for more chapters", I say "they're so overpowered it's not going to help them". Going from rape to more rape will barely make a difference.

For example, there's a point in durability where having more of it doesn't matter. Liek, Gatrie vs Haar. Gatrie is more durable. And no one cares. Because Haar is never dying anyway. It's called overkill. This is the same thing, except you now have an overkill amount of godly units rather than overkill durability. You don't need to make more godly units, or make the godly units even godlier.

Throwing SPEEDWING/RESOLVE/PARAGON/WHATEVER to the GMs is like throwing a dracoshield on Gatrie.

I'm not saying the DB are entitled to every single stat booster their team gets, but BOTH the DB and the GMs should at *least* be equally entitled to a given favoritism, if this favoritism starts in the DB. Colonel M is right; there are FAR too many people who want to give everything to the GMs and leave the DB in the dust, because they think "there are more GM chapters than DB chapters, thus the GMs can use it longer!", ignoring the fact that the GMs are so good they benefit very little from it anyway. I'll start giving a shit about throwing everything I have to the GMs once all their enemies turn into 3-6 HM tigers.

As for the subject at hand, wtf @ giving the wing to the GMs. It's in a fucking chest in 1-E. I don't want to bring lolilyana just to transfer it over, because she's goign to be deadweight.

And before anyone says "but you have nailah and bk" or something about fielding Ilyana with no drawback, I suggest you actually play the chapter. I used every single deployment slot to good use in 1-E to make it go faster.

There's a ton of things that screwed up in this list (wtf @ Sothe and Mia being so high), but I've basically given up on this list and I'm only going to pop in occasionally. And thus I don't feel like making detailed arguments.

Edited August 28, 2009 by smash fanatic

[grandjackal]

...You do realize Sothe's part 1 is arguably better than Volug's, right? Then they are pretty even part 3, and only reason there is a tier difference is because Volug trounces Sothe in part 4, despite the fact he has utility to go with it (desert treasure, ashera staff).

[Narga_Rocks]

...You do realize Sothe's part 1 is arguably better than Volug's, right? Then they are pretty even part 3, and only reason there is a tier difference is because Volug trounces Sothe in part 4, despite the fact he has utility to go with it (desert treasure, ashera staff).

Dude, it's smash. The only time he cares about tier goals like efficiency is when it helps his characters. Like how he's whining about Ilyana in 1-E. Then he throws in experiences from his own tactics (proven to generally be inferior) as proof that you can't beat it with Ilyana. Or at least that it goes faster. While ignoring how the speedwing will speed up part 3 for the GMs far more than the DB. Also, he generally doesn't care about doubling so doesn't care that Titania with a speedwing now ORKOs way more than before. But at the same time he's okay with snailing 1-6 and 1-E in order to get an A support for Zihark with a character that benefits more from a +def support (Nolan). Then he goes and says how the GMs chapters are oh so easy and thus don't need anything, except if the tier list goal is reducing turn counts then the GMs could be mind bogglingly easy but if a certain resource cut out 1 or 2 turns per map it should still go to the GMs even if it made the DBs a bit harder, simply because it reduces more turns overall.

Also, he says: "I'm not saying the DB are entitled to every single stat booster their team gets", except he seems to think they should keep them. Nobody here is saying to toss over the 2 seraph robes or the draco or the energy drop. Just the speedwing. If the DBs aren't entitled to every single stat booster, then why can't the GMs choose the speedwing as the only one to bring over? Because it's smash, that's why.

Also, he complains about Mia being so high, yet likely never read a single page about how she got that high. Also, if the GMs can't take that speedwing, notice how he has so far never complained about Titania's position and thinks that she's as good as Gatrie. You always see him saying Shinon + Gatrie + Titania are all about the same level. Shinon isn't doing much to clear maps considering player phase only. Titania can't double much and isn't nearly as durable as Gatrie or Ike or Haar or even Shinon. There is no way Titania is at the same level as Gatrie without giving her a wing, unless we take away Gat's crown. Sure, you can argue she runs forward, and in the smash school of thought it's okay that she won't be KOing stuff. She still won't survive much without Oscar as well as a support, except he's worse than her for efficiency up at the front and only gets shared movement and penalties in their support. He gets more from any of the +mt types. She's got questionable durability and questionable offence with no Oscar and no wing. And yet she's on the same level as crowned Gatrie?

[Interceptor]

Why do the GMs care about stat boosters and favoritism?

Care? The GMs don't have feelings. From a game mechanics perspective, giving them boosters and "favoritism" makes gameplay faster and more efficient.

They have so many godly units, you can't POSSIBLY field all of them.

Ike, Haar, Ulki, Janaff, Ranulf (well, his stats are ridiculous, and his only real flaw, the transformation gauge, can't be fixed in part 3 anyway), Gatrie, Titania, Shinon, Mordy. Mia and Oscar are pretty good too. They even have fucking Reyson for half their chapters. Half of these guys don't need *anything* at all to be ridiculous.

From my count, the GMs only have three godly units (Haar*, Ike, Raisin), and Haar has an asterisk to his name because he's only godly on mission objectives, he needs +SPD to be godly on enemies. The rest of the units all have flaws or shortcomings that require attention before they are "godly". Mia needs skills/support, Hawks need Energy Drops and/or BEXP, Gatrie needs a crown, Titania needs at least a Speedwing, Oscar needs a ton of stuff for his mt problems, Shinon needs a time machine to take him to 4-E-1, Mordy needs massive +SPD or Resolve, etc. Ranulf does not even belong on this list at all due to his gauge problems.

No, they're not overpowered like BK/Nailah/Tauroneo in DB chapters, but it doesn't matter. There are SO MANY of them that it's basically the same thing. In fact, it's even better, since someone like Nailah can't do anything to 2-range enemies on enemy phase, and if there's a hoard of them, she can only take one one a turn. If I have Janaff/Ulki, they aren't dying either, and with them you can likely take out two enemies.

Actually, it DOES matter that they are not overpowered like BK and Friends, because failing to ORKO and having to heal occasionally and/or facing higher rates of death have the effect of slowing you down. There are not so many silly-powerful units and deployment slots that you can just Player Phase your way across maps as efficiently as a smaller group can Player/Enemy Phase across the map. This is particularly important in light of the fact that we need as many powerful GMs as possible in order to tackle Part 4 efficiently, so concentration of resources works in our advantage.

The difference, of course, is that this wtfoverpoweredGMswarm lasts for 10+ chapters instead of 1-2.

No, the difference is that the GMs don't ORKO everything and never die. Not even Ike is as ridiculous as the DB cleaning crew.

Meanwhile, the DB are the ones in deep shit with ridiculously overpowered enemies (especially relative to the jokes the GMs are facing). Volug is their best unit and his durability vs the enemies is like fucking Boyd's vs GM enemies (3-rounded by tigers, like 5 rounded by cats. Boyd is typically 3-4HKO'd, and it only gets better because of his good HP/def growths). AND Volug has to spam grasses, giving him less opportunities to heal himself. If Boyd is really worried about dying, he can spam vulneraries.

What is the point of this? The DB has a harder path, but it's shorter. Stat boosters and skills do not really change their circumstances, and even when they do, it makes such a tiny imprint on overall game completion that you can't justify the opportunity cost.

This is also ignoring that people like Boyd and Neph are more than usable. Meanwhile, once you get past the good units in the DB, they're utter crap. loledward. lolleo. lolfiona. lolmeg.

Resources have nothing to do with this. The fact that the DB's second-stringers are are awful does not actually make any point about anything you've said here.

DO the GMs REALLY need to make their chapters even easier than they already are? Even if none of the GMs can solo a map, it doesn't matter. You can just overwhelm the enemies with sheer numbers, because you just have that many good units. For example, if there are three enemies nearby, and you have 10 units (Ike/Haar/Janaff/Ulki/Ranulf/Titania/Shinon/Gatrie/MOrdy is already 9, mind) PLUS Reyson, do I really need to make all of them capable of one rounding those enemies?

If the goal of this tier list is to rank efficient and speedy completion, then yes, I do need to make the GM chapters easier than they already are. Overwhelming the enemy with numbers is fine for clearing specific situations, but waters down resource distribution and is going to slow you down later in the game. You are better off from a mechanical perspective if you are low-manning the GM chapters and making a few really ridiculous units, so as to maximize your turn-smashing power as the game drags on.

You say "but the GMs can use it for more chapters", I say "they're so overpowered it's not going to help them". Going from rape to more rape will barely make a difference.

Well, unfortunately your assertion is not backed up by any evidence. Meanwhile, it's pretty trivial to demonstrate what a tiny effect that some of the DBs resources have on them, in terms of the big picture.

For example, there's a point in durability where having more of it doesn't matter. Liek, Gatrie vs Haar. Gatrie is more durable. And no one cares. Because Haar is never dying anyway. It's called overkill. This is the same thing, except you now have an overkill amount of godly units rather than overkill durability. You don't need to make more godly units, or make the godly units even godlier.

This is not even true. Haar still fears thunder sages even when he has Nullify, and a concerted effort on the part of higher-mt enemy units can wear him down. He does still need to calculate the risks of certain manuevers, and heal himself. Durability does have diminishing returns, but you have to get up to Black Knight levels before it gets silly.

Throwing SPEEDWING/RESOLVE/PARAGON/WHATEVER to the GMs is like throwing a dracoshield on Gatrie.

No, it's like making someone double and ORKO where they were 2RKO'ing before.

I'm not saying the DB are entitled to every single stat booster their team gets, but BOTH the DB and the GMs should at *least* be equally entitled to a given favoritism, if this favoritism starts in the DB. Colonel M is right; there are FAR too many people who want to give everything to the GMs and leave the DB in the dust, because they think "there are more GM chapters than DB chapters, thus the GMs can use it longer!", ignoring the fact that the GMs are so good they benefit very little from it anyway. I'll start giving a shit about throwing everything I have to the GMs once all their enemies turn into 3-6 HM tigers.

This argument is not anchored in any sort of logic at all. Your first sentence has nothing to do with either efficiency or speedy game completion, you are just claiming that the DB and the GMs should be entitled to equal access to favoritism without explaining a reason for the equivalence.

The rest is your classic misrepresentation of a real argument. The GMs don't just use it for longer, they use it more effectively. The GMs would, for example, technically use Beastfoe longer than the DB, but since it wouldn't do squat for them, nobody ever suggests taking it from the DB at all. This is why people don't take you seriously, smash, you prop up and refute ridiculous versions of people's arguments rather than the real ones.

As for the subject at hand, wtf @ giving the wing to the GMs. It's in a fucking chest in 1-E. I don't want to bring lolilyana just to transfer it over, because she's goign to be deadweight.

And before anyone says "but you have nailah and bk" or something about fielding Ilyana with no drawback, I suggest you actually play the chapter. I used every single deployment slot to good use in 1-E to make it go faster.

I guess you missed the post where Narga basically stomped all over this logic. Maybe you ought to go back and read it. Ilyana is not worthless, nor is the speedwing the only reason she might want to be deployed.

There's a ton of things that screwed up in this list (wtf @ Sothe and Mia being so high), but I've basically given up on this list and I'm only going to pop in occasionally. And thus I don't feel like making detailed arguments.

If you've given up on this list, and you don't want to argue, why are you still here? Shit or get off the pot.

[Colonel M]

Keep in mind the point I was making the Speedwing was about Nolan. I wasn't 100% denying that it could be passed to the GMs. I unno about other resources (Resolve is iffy on the DB because Zihark himself is iffy and the only one that benefits is Volug I guess), but I think items like the two Seraph Robes + Energy Drop or Dracoshield or w/e does better with them.

I'm not denying resources to either side. Just saying that it's a little (and I'm not stretching this to a 100000000 word post) ridiculous.

[Narga_Rocks]

Keep in mind the point I was making the Speedwing was about Nolan. I wasn't 100% denying that it could be passed to the GMs. I unno about other resources (Resolve is iffy on the DB because Zihark himself is iffy and the only one that benefits is Volug I guess), but I think items like the two Seraph Robes + Energy Drop or Dracoshield or w/e does better with them.

I'm not denying resources to either side. Just saying that it's a little (and I'm not stretching this to a 100000000 word post) ridiculous.

I highly approve of the seraphs staying with the DBs. Jill could use one in 1-6, or Aran could use it earlier in 1-5, though it's only a 6 turn chapter difference so that shouldn't be held against Jill. The other one could go to Micaiah or whichever of Aran/Jill didn't get the 1-4 robe. Edward or Nolan or Micaiah could get the dracoshield. Possibly even Jill because of a somewhat low growth and never capping, but then it's being held for a rather long time. The energy drop could go to Edward, Nolan, Volug or Jill again but waiting from mid-1-2 to 1-6 (or 1-5 in the case of volug) is something to be weighed against her gains. Still a worthy idea, though. Especially considering in HM Volug doesn't even OHKO fire mages in 1-5. 29 mt goes a lot further than 25 mt, considering that on top of the obvious armors Volug doesn't ORKO most mounted knights in 1-6-2 (he ORKOs just three of them). Also fails on the soldiers and fighters in 1-7, no longer doubles myrms so an extra 4 damage could be the difference between a KO from another unit and not. He actually gets a fair amount of longevity out of that drop just in part 1, and in part 4 I'm sure it helps even an SS Strike Volug.

The only thing that the GMs use significantly better is the wing, and it's actually partly because there will be no part 1 benefit from the thing. And because Titania needs it to be good. She's basically average statistically without it. Well, above average strength, but that doesn't mean much without doubling. Braves in part 3 aren't going to do it for her and cause hammerne uses that should be unneeded even if they did let her pull off extra ORKOs on more than just swordmasters.

[charmander6000]

You know as great as Ilyana is at carrying stuff to the GM she can only take eight stuff (plus an extra skill if you master seal her). From all those stat-ups, skills, sellables and even forges (don't know why) being available to the GM you can't really assume they all go to them because she doesn't have enough room. Maybe someone should create a list of the most likely items to be transfered with maybe a couple of substitutes.