OMG it's a tier list

[Jaybee]

Micaiah & Laura > Nephenee. Any thoughts on this?

It's basically healing & offense vs low power and doubling.

[Interceptor]

Micaiah & Laura > Nephenee. Any thoughts on this?

It's basically healing & offense vs low power and doubling.

Nephenee is basically Mia Lite<tm> in terms of potential, without the benefit of an earth BFF. She hasn't been looked at on this list in a dog's age, it's probable that she's under-rated.

Anyway WRT your specific unit match-ups, I think that comparing combatants to healers isa hard thing to do even when they are in the same army, and these units have like no crossover at all until Endgame, or maybe early Part 4.

[Narga_Rocks]

You know as great as Ilyana is at carrying stuff to the GM she can only take eight stuff (plus an extra skill if you master seal her). From all those stat-ups, skills, sellables and even forges (don't know why) being available to the GM you can't really assume they all go to them because she doesn't have enough room. Maybe someone should create a list of the most likely items to be transfered with maybe a couple of substitutes.

I think some people tried once many pages ago, but it didn't really go all that well.

I know I filled her up (didn't seal her) with stuff and I didn't have room for Adept or Resolve or the speedwing. But I don't know what all I actually gave her, and I could probably have given up on one or two of those things if I really wanted the speedwing, but I didn't much care. Left it to rot since the DB don't need it.

As for "forges (don't know why)", the only ones really are a thunder forge and a fire forge and a steel axe forge. To be efficient in part 1, a thunder forge on Ilyana is a good investment since few units can have a forge that does 1-2 range. Why make another one for the dragonmasters in part 3 when you can just carry that one over? Fire can't even be forged in the beginning of part 3, and I don't remember when it's first available. Since fire is the best magic to forge, it's good to have one for chapters where Soren or Ilyana can be fielded with little cost. Also it makes them better if you want to use them in other chapters to raise them for ranged bombing in 4-E-3 and 4-E-4. And Tormod misses out on a bunch of ORKOs with just elfire in 1-8 and 1-E, so he can use it in 1-E and Ilyana needs to be deployed to take it to the GMs, too. Then there are sellables and skills and the speedwing (DBs benefit too much from the other stat ups in part 1). Also, as I said before, Nolan doesn't need a steel axe forge in part 3, but it could sure help in 1-E. Why leave it to rot in part 3?

Also, if you are using Leonardo actively (not saying we would be), a steel forge helps in 1-E, but he doesn't need it in part 3, so might as well get a free forge for Shinon for pre-silencer boosted player phase offence.

For all those "but the DBs can use them too" people or "why do the GMs get everything" or whatever, those 4 forges are things they don't even need anymore. Especially the magic tomes when the DBs have no mages. Why waste the fire forge from 1-E until part 4? Why make Tormod miss out on ORKOs he could be doing? If we care about efficiency, anyway.

[Reikken]

I've asked this before, but since there have been about 7 months, nearly 3000 posts, and lots of relevant outside discussion, I think it's worth asking again. Before I join in, or if I join in at all, what are the goals for this list?

[Jaybee]

Hard mode, efficiency.

[Interceptor]

I've asked this before, but since there have been about 7 months, nearly 3000 posts, and lots of relevant outside discussion, I think it's worth asking again. Before I join in, or if I join in at all, what are the goals for this list?

I have no idea, they are not posted other than that the setting is Hard Mode, but based on the sorts of arguments that have worked to move people around recently, I'd say this list's goal is efficiency and speedy completion. Ask RFoF.

[_____]

When Fox and I originally made this, I think we were going for something similar to the H5 and Sacred Stones tier lists, so, yeah, efficiency.

[Reikken]

Ok, if efficiency, then ...what exactly? I'm not really sure how to word the question, so... Is it like we are assuming playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, and gauge characters based on how much they contribute to that, or characters are ranked based on how well they would do were they to be used as a primary team member, or...? And if more in line with that second example thing, then is the rest of the team made up of characters that we would use in order to be playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, or do other characters see use, too, and if so, how often? etc

[grandjackal]

I'd think it would be getting through the chapters as fast as we can with as little risk as possible. Considering we can't just have a team of gods, we have to basically utilize the gods of each part best we can, thus why growth units tend to be quite low. Probably why even stat boosters are considered in this list while others don't quite consider it (Titania's that high, a speedwing and a crown is considered).

[Zkirsche]

So, with a stat up item and a shaky transfer, he becomes Tibarn...! OK. So, Tibarn with any other type of resource would win. So, Tibarn w/ resources > Naesala with resources, Tibarn w/o resources = Naesala w/ resources, Tibarn w/ resources > Naesala w/o, and Tibarn w/o resources > Naesala w/o resources.

No, just the transfer, the stat up item is so he can get the transfer.

You failed to see my point, which was NOT Naesala > Tibarn. But Naesala is too low/Tibarn is too high. There's little difference between them yet Nephenee/Micaiah/Laura/Elincia/Oscar/Jill are all in between the two.

Compare him to, say, Elincia. Considering 2-E/2-P aren't enougth for Elincia > Tibarn, I'll assume that Naesala's part 4 mearely has to be better than Elincia's. To start with, Naesala can ORKO every enemy in 4-p aside from the generals and the boss, who all face a 66.36% chance to get ORKO'ed thanks to Tear, wrongfully ignoring possible adept usage. Oh, and he can survive a hit from a crossbow. In comparison, Elincia doesn't ORKO a thing in 4-2 thanks to not quadding, if she can start quadding in the chapter, it's near the end and is very unimportant. So Elincia 2RKO the everyday enemy (Sm's, pallys, halbs, warriors and snipers), 2RKO's mages (lol) and 3-4RKO's generals until she starts quadding. And this isn't saved through stun, as she only has 39.16% chance of activating this once against enemies, which is much, much lower than Naesala's %chance of activating his mastery. And this doesn't even save her against generals + dragon masters, who can survive a stun. Heck, 1 general can actually survive 2 stuns. So yeah, Naesala in 4-P >>>> Elincia in 4-2.

And this trend for Naesala continues in 4-3, where he still can kill everyone sans generals and dragon masters. Elincia can't quad cats/hawks/ravens and 41 Atk is not enougth to ORKO them with just a double. She can kill Tigers just fine but she takes a lot of damage when hit, enougth to be 2RKO'ed. So yeah, she's even limited to what she can do in this chapter thanks to her pathetic durability. Naesala + Nullify owns 4-3. A dracoshield doesn't even save Elincia from getting 2RKO'ed and a seraph robe only stops the 46 mt tigers from 2RKO'ing her. So yeah, Naesala in 4-3 beats Elincia in 4-5 too.

Come endgame, they both get a support active. but who cares about that. A level 15 Elincia can only kill the 30 def generals. Level 29 Naesala with SS strike and 'C' anyone can also do that. Except he has Tear, and Tear >>> Stun. Oh, and he still has superier durability. So Naesala still wins. Heck, Elincia only beats him in res when she's level 20, but she still loses 34764363919659784782 HP, so Naesala is still more durable. Oh, and he can double Ashera without Nasir. Naesala in Endgame >> Elincia come endgame.

So since Naesala also crushes Elincia for the time when they're both around, what gives Tibarn the right to somehow get over her while Naesala doesn't? Oh and all this is WITHOUT the transfer bonus.

Edited August 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Interceptor]

Ok, if efficiency, then ...what exactly? I'm not really sure how to word the question, so... Is it like we are assuming playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, and gauge characters based on how much they contribute to that, or characters are ranked based on how well they would do were they to be used as a primary team member, or...? And if more in line with that second example thing, then is the rest of the team made up of characters that we would use in order to be playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, or do other characters see use, too, and if so, how often? etc

Without a ruling on it I can only speak to how I argue characters around. I personally assume that characters are played with an eye towards beating the game as efficiently as possible. AKA, Tormod's position on this tier list reflects the idea that we don't bring him to Endgame, because he's getting curbstomped there by anything and everything. However, he's really useful for Part 1 when he's around average durability and doubles basically everything at 1-2 range.

With regard to who the other units are, I don't really look at things in terms of the likelyhood of a unit being deployed, because I don't think that tier lists should be psychology experiments. I prefer to look at things in terms of how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough, and what the effect of choices (skills, boosters, deploying a particular support partner) cost in terms of realizing that goal.

[-Cynthia-]

It's a little misleading to have Naesala vs. Elincia wihout mentioning Elincia's staves.

But yeah, I think I could see Naesala right below Tibarn tbh. There really aren't that many enemies Naesala doesn't ORKO and he has a great chance to ORKO with Tear anyway. Not having SS Strike is a bit of a hindrance, but from personal experience Naesala can get SS Strike during 4-3. His chapters have a lot of enemies, he always doubles, and he can take on a nigh-unlimited amount. I mean he loses to Tibarn in every area but affinity (and 4-P/4-3 being harder than 4-2/4-5 perhaps), but he's still a really good character, it's like Caineghis vs. Giffca.

[_____]

Then perhaps Naesala could be at the top of Upper Mid and Tibarn at the bottom of High? There is a decent gap between the two.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, with a stat up item and a shaky transfer, he becomes Tibarn...! OK. So, Tibarn with any other type of resource would win. So, Tibarn w/ resources > Naesala with resources, Tibarn w/o resources = Naesala w/ resources, Tibarn w/ resources > Naesala w/o, and Tibarn w/o resources > Naesala w/o resources.

No, just the transfer, the stat up item is so he can get the transfer.

You failed to see my point, which was NOT Naesala > Tibarn. But Naesala is too low/Tibarn is too high. There's little difference between them yet Nephenee/Micaiah/Laura/Elincia/Oscar/Jill are all in between the two.

Compare him to, say, Elincia. Considering 2-E/2-P aren't enougth for Elincia > Tibarn, I'll assume that Naesala's part 4 mearely has to be better than Elincia's. To start with, Naesala can ORKO every enemy in 4-p aside from the generals and the boss, who all face a 66.36% chance to get ORKO'ed thanks to Tear, wrongfully ignoring possible adept usage. Oh, and he can survive a hit from a crossbow. In comparison, Elincia doesn't ORKO a thing in 4-2 thanks to not quadding, if she can start quadding in the chapter, it's near the end and is very unimportant. So Elincia 2RKO the everyday enemy (Sm's, pallys, halbs, warriors and snipers), 2RKO's mages (lol) and 3-4RKO's generals until she starts quadding. And this isn't saved through stun, as she only has 39.16% chance of activating this once against enemies, which is much, much lower than Naesala's %chance of activating his mastery. And this doesn't even save her against generals + dragon masters, who can survive a stun. Heck, 1 general can actually survive 2 stuns. So yeah, Naesala in 4-P >>>> Elincia in 4-2.

And this trend for Naesala continues in 4-3, where he still can kill everyone sans generals and dragon masters. Elincia can't quad cats/hawks/ravens and 41 Atk is not enougth to ORKO them with just a double. She can kill Tigers just fine but she takes a lot of damage when hit, enougth to be 2RKO'ed. So yeah, she's even limited to what she can do in this chapter thanks to her pathetic durability. Naesala + Nullify owns 4-3. A dracoshield doesn't even save Elincia from getting 2RKO'ed and a seraph robe only stops the 46 mt tigers from 2RKO'ing her. So yeah, Naesala in 4-3 beats Elincia in 4-5 too.

Come endgame, they both get a support active. but who cares about that. A level 15 Elincia can only kill the 30 def generals. Level 29 Naesala with SS strike and 'C' anyone can also do that. Except he has Tear, and Tear >>> Stun. Oh, and he still has superier durability. So Naesala still wins. Heck, Elincia only beats him in res when she's level 20, but she still loses 34764363919659784782 HP, so Naesala is still more durable. Oh, and he can double Ashera without Nasir. Naesala in Endgame >> Elincia come endgame.

So since Naesala also crushes Elincia for the time when they're both around, what gives Tibarn the right to somehow get over her while Naesala doesn't? Oh and all this is WITHOUT the transfer bonus.

First, Naesala needs lots of combats in two chapters to get SS for 4-E-1. Like, 40. Except more than 40. Consider that 42% of the time he KOs on the first hit. And that just goes up to 44% after just two levels (usually) and 46% after two or three more. With a 42% chance of only making one hit, that's only 1.66 wexp per combat on average at neutral bio. Less at best bio, more at worst. ~48 combats just to get to SS. Probably more like 49 or 50. 25 combats per chapter. That's a lot.

Level 15 Elincia has 28 str, so 43 mt with Amiti, 44 mt with C Reyson or something good like that.

52 damage to 31 def generals, KOing them. Only the five 32 def generals survive, and only barely with about 3 or 4 hp remaining. and with a 28% stun she's also pulling 48% of facing no counters on player phase. Naesala only has a ~46% chance assuming 5 levels. Close, though. Tear is only better than stun in 4-E-3 and only if Elincia isn't 6HKOing. Or 4HKOing with a wyrmslayer. Well, when she only takes two attempts his proc rate is significantly higher than hers, but that isn't stun's fault, it's Elincia's skl stat's fault. Stun > Tear except on red dragons.

She's actually doing far far better in 4-E-1 offensively assuming she got paragon in 4-2 and he did not enter 50 combats in two chapters. And she can fly further on turn 1 if necessary, or at least use the extra 2 move on turn 1 for canto-ing.

And a level 18 Elincia happens to be one of the few units capable of ORKOing an aura with 2 blood tides and white tide. Then cantoing away so other units can use that same massive bonus to attack other auras. Units that can't quad need 65 mt pre tides in order to pull it off with a double. Units that quad need a mere 43 mt pre tides. For units that have access to braves and 34 speed and canto? It's just Jill and Elincia. Well, Marcia and Tanith too, but Tanith has spd issues and Marcia has str issues and with a 32 str cap Marcia needs a support active and Tanith needs to support with +mt. I suppose Fiona and Astrid too, but whatever.

Also, Naesala needs SS strike and level 32 to ORKO fire spirits on cover tiles. I suppose that's doable, but Elincia pulls it off at level 18 anyway. And ignoring cover tiles she KOs it before it can counter, whereas Naesala would need 65 mt to do that (aka not happening).

He's not greatly better, really. Plus she has physic staves for when Micaiah just isn't enough. And access to Alondite.

[Zkirsche]

It appears you agreed with the pre-endgame bits.

25 combats per chapter. That's a lot.

Considering Naesala is you best units in those chapters, him facing half the map isn't no doable. He should at least be close to it anyway.

Level 15 Elincia has 28 str, so 43 mt with Amiti, 44 mt with C Reyson or something good like that.

Why would Reyson support Elincia? He doesn't care at all for the hit, there's a massive mov difference and he's available for many maps before they meet up. Meaning he could've already built up a support before he and Elincia meet.

Tear is only better than stun in 4-E-3 and only if Elincia isn't 6HKOing.

Then they're equal at best, unless you can prove triple damage > triple strength.

She's actually doing far far better in 4-E-1 offensively assuming she got paragon in 4-2 and he did not enter 50 combats in two chapters. And she can fly further on turn 1 if necessary, or at least use the extra 2 move on turn 1 for canto-ing.

Even with SS, it's possible that she's > Naesala too. But remember, the same applies to Tibarn.

And a level 18 Elincia happens to be one of the few units capable of ORKOing an aura with 2 blood tides and white tide.

Tibarn can't do that either.

I suppose that's doable

Says it all.

(aka not happening).

Who cares? Naesala is great against spirits thanks to his high res.

He's not greatly better, really. Plus she has physic staves for when Micaiah just isn't enough. And access to Alondite.

None of those stopped Tibarn > Elincia.

Then perhaps Naesala could be at the top of Upper Mid and Tibarn at the bottom of High? There is a decent gap between the two.

I don't see such a gap, especially when you remember that 4-3 should be more heavily weigehd than 4-5 (Rout >>> Kill boss) and that they're practically the same (Sans 4-E-4+ where Naesala is better thanks to superier res).

Edited August 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Narga_Rocks]

It appears you agreed with the pre-endgame bits.

Naesala's durability is important. Actually, depending on levels, Elincia will be ORKOing cats and probably ORKOs ravens regardless. She can stand in various swamp spots and clear out fliers since they can 4RKO her depending on levels. Also, considering she's just about the best user of adept + cancel in the entire game thanks to unlimited amiti she has a fairly good chance at taking 0 damage from tigers on player phase. Still, though, based on needing paragon and the first half of 4-2 not being so great anyway and the durability thing (though Naesala lacks stars so has to be a little careful anyway, just not nearly as careful) I'd have to give him a win for pre 4-E part 4.

25 combats per chapter. That's a lot.

Considering Naesala is you best units in those chapters, him facing half the map isn't no doable. He should at least be close to it anyway.

Yes, he'll be close. And if you aren't raising more than 2 or so units aside from him in Micaiah's chapters then it doesn't hurt. Try raising 4 or 5 and it's not exactly helpful. Considering you have 10 units + Ike + Micaiah + Sanaki and 3 paths, it seems reasonable that you might be raising 4 in Micaiah's chapters. Especially if you raise fliers since 4-P has enemies that are easy to double and can be faced in 4s and the desert is good for fliers, too. Just saying ~60 wexp or less seems more reasonable than 80. He'll have it by 4-E-3 anyway, and whether it's 4-3 or 4-E-1 or 4-E-2 is a matter of how the maps are played.

Level 15 Elincia has 28 str, so 43 mt with Amiti, 44 mt with C Reyson or something good like that.

Why would Reyson support Elincia? He doesn't care at all for the hit, there's a massive mov difference and he's available for many maps before they meet up. Meaning he could've already built up a support before he and Elincia meet.

Well, Reyson starts in 3-5, when lots of supports are established, he doesn't appear in 3-11 when the CRKs show up, and the best units likely established supports with each other and he's vigoring them. It's possible it would be difficult to keep his support around. As such, it's entirely probable that some nub not going to endgame took Reyson as a partner, so C Elincia x Reyson seems rather reasonable in 4-E-1. There isn't even a massive move difference once he transforms, they both fly, and she's one of the top units in her sections, at least offensively, so it's perfectly reasonable he'll at least be close. Too bad area vigoring builds no points, though. And since we don't let him get attacked anyway, who cares about Reyson's angle on the support front. Okay, so maybe Elincia could support someone with hit issues, but that's a support for the other unit, not for Elincia. Similar to what Reyson is to Elincia. Or she could support Marcia (not the greatest skl/lck) or some other unit that has +mt. I don't see a huge issue.

Tear is only better than stun in 4-E-3 and only if Elincia isn't 6HKOing.

Then they're equal at best, unless you can prove triple damage > triple strength.

Pretty much equal at best for Stun. For units that double and >= 5HKO or don't double and >= 4HKO they'll take Tear, as well as units with spd > skl.

For units that have skl > spd and 3HKO or double and 4HKO, they'd do better with stun.

For units that don't OHKO with tear, they'd take stun. Of course, that's assuming we could throw tear or stun on anyone, because pretty much everything that actually has tear would OHKO. Well, Ulki on a red wouldn't OHKO, but since he likely wouldn't get hit and can KO on the second hit after a tear but not after a stun, he'd take tear (plus he has a slightly better spd than skl.)

Funny thought, though:

Caineghis, Giffca, and Tibarn would all take stun over tear. In fact, Cain and Giffca would take stun over Roar.

Why?

Skill.

Cain has 44 str and 46 skl and 34 spd.

Giffca has 42 str and 44 skl and 36 spd.

Tibarn has 48 skl and 40 spd.

Stun gives a higher activation rate than anything else.

Tibarn 4HKOs reds anyway, and 48% >> 40% activation. If he procs on the first hit, he takes no damage and the red dies. It doesn't much matter that he OHKOs with tear and not with stun, since he doubles and a stunned enemy can't counter. He's far more likely to kill the red with stun than tear, and more likely to take 0 damage.

Cain and Giffca 3HKO the reds, so they'd take stun as well thanks to a higher proc rate. Much higher in the case of stun vs. tear, only slightly higher for stun vs. roar.

The three best royals in endgame would all take stun over tear.

She's actually doing far far better in 4-E-1 offensively assuming she got paragon in 4-2 and he did not enter 50 combats in two chapters. And she can fly further on turn 1 if necessary, or at least use the extra 2 move on turn 1 for canto-ing.

Even with SS, it's possible that she's > Naesala too. But remember, the same applies to Tibarn.

Yeah, it's cool. But Tibarn has 56 mt at base, and Naesala needs SS and 19 str for that, aka lvl 31 or 32.

Tibarn can ORKO any armors with 50hp/30 def, also 50hp/31def, but not 51hp/31def or 52hp/32def. (misses just 10 out of 30 starting generals, and nabs 9 out of 11 reinforcements)

If Naesala only has 18 str and SS, he's only got 54 mt and only KOs the 50hp/30def ones and only if he has a C something. Which is doable, but that's still only ORKOing the 8 axe generals with 50hp/30 def. The rest live. Oh, he also nabs 9 out of 11 reinforcements. If for whatever reason his support is out of range, like say Naesala moves first or something, an 18 strength Naesala does not ORKO anything.

Still, I suppose a lvl 32 Naesala with a +mt support does better offensively if he pulled off 19 str (he should by this level) and Tibarn did not get a +mt supporter. There is, however, a three way tie for second on his growths with str included, so bexp gives a fair chance at +str and 58 mt, nabbing all the generals.

Anyway, until he gets SS, Naesala isn't doing so hot there, and Elincia bombs him.

And a level 18 Elincia happens to be one of the few units capable of ORKOing an aura with 2 blood tides and white tide.

Tibarn can't do that either.

If that chapter mattered more then Elincia > Tibarn. Although I think that could maybe work anyway.

I suppose that's doable

Says it all.

Except again she's better on turn 1 since she can reach out and blick something further away. And it's not like either Tibarn or Naesala is doing better here. And Alondite will ORKO whatever is not on a cover tile. She can get something 11 squares away from her starting position if it isn't on a cover tile.

(aka not happening).

Who cares? Naesala is great against spirits thanks to his high res.

It's to mitigate any possible durability differences, nothing more.

He's not greatly better, really. Plus she has physic staves for when Micaiah just isn't enough. And access to Alondite.

None of those stopped Tibarn > Elincia.

Why not?

Then perhaps Naesala could be at the top of Upper Mid and Tibarn at the bottom of High? There is a decent gap between the two.

I don't see such a gap, especially when you remember that 4-3 should be more heavily weigehd than 4-5 (Rout >>> Kill boss) and that they're practically the same (Sans 4-E-4+ where Naesala is better thanks to superier res).

Elincia

Tibarn

Naesala

Possibly some units thrown in between somewhere.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Why not?

Pretty much the question I'm asking. Because, quite frankly I agree with this:

Elincia

Tibarn

Naesala

[Narga_Rocks]

Why not?

Pretty much the question I'm asking. Because, quite frankly I agree with this:

Elincia

Tibarn

Naesala

Good to know. I have no clue how to deal with the units between them all, though.

Just a couple of little bits of info:

Naesala does fine in his chapters.

I've done the math before, so go find it if anyone doesn't believe, but in 4-P he just misses 3 out of 4 generals and the boss and takes out the rest.

In 4-2, sure, Tibarn takes out the boss, but considering Naesala would obliterate the thing too, it's not really fair to say Tibarn kills a boss and Naesala doesn't. Sure, Tibarn would get the one in 4-P that Naesala wouldn't, but it's not a whole extra boss, it's like half a boss extra.

In 4-3, he needs 53 mt to take out the majority of the dragonmasters, so he misses those, sure. And two generals.

He still does really well here, and unlike 4-P Skrimir now 1RKOs 4 enemies instead of almost everything. Elincia is actually doing better in 4-5 than she was in 4-2, or the first half of 4-2 before her levels anyway.

In 4-E-1, it depends on stuff. Let's say Naesala his SS halfway through and pulls 19 str, well then he's actually doing better since he is guaranteed +mt if he has a C support and 57mt takes out the 51hp/31def generals that Tibarn misses. So for a little while Tibarn is better, then Naesala is a little better. Otherwise maybe not so much.

Still, by 4-E-2 they should be rather similar and Naesala has a higher tear than Tibarn.

Really, they likely should be closer, but there are a lot of units that deserve a good spot and it's hard to say if they should stay between or go above Tibarn or below Naesala. Well, Oscar could go below Naesala.

[Florete]

Naesala and Tibarn haven't been looked at on in this list in ages (Maybe not ever, except possibly Tibarn going down from High like last year or something), so it makes sense that their current positions might not be perfectly accurate. Elincia > Tibarn > Naesala (With other characters somehow tossed in?) sounds good to me given the evidence shown.

And by that I mean that the gap can definitely close.

[-Cynthia-]

I could definitely see Naesala> Ranulf, especially considering Ranulf only has 6 pre-Part 4 chapters that he's above average in, but not spectacular. When they share availability Naesala beats Ranulf soundly.

[Ether]

Anyone think Muarim could move up a bit?

He's obviously great part 1,and when he comes back in part 4,all his problems are fixed with resolve (stops being doubled,and doubles all non Sm's)

his concrete durability is still great,and at base he can double all the way to aura's.

He is probably close to S strike by now from part 1 use,and gets 51 Mt.

As well,he can Bexp quite well,and will most likely gain Hp and Str.

[grandjackal]

Yes, Muarim is in fact sexy.

...Errr, wait, tier list, right.

I could agree with that. He's basically the BK for longer, though Muarim doesn't have hte benefit of being able to end 3-6 just by showing up. However, he returns in part 4, and is basically Skrimir. He could have a support going with Tormod or Vika to keep himself mroe durable, while hitting just a tiiiidbit harder.

Pity he can't get SS strike any time soon though. He could have been the only endgame viable tiger.

[Narga_Rocks]

Anyone think Muarim could move up a bit?

He's obviously great part 1,and when he comes back in part 4,all his problems are fixed with resolve (stops being doubled,and doubles all non Sm's)

his concrete durability is still great,and at base he can double all the way to aura's.

He is probably close to S strike by now from part 1 use,and gets 51 Mt.

As well,he can Bexp quite well,and will most likely gain Hp and Str.

I'm not so sure about being close to S. He needs 70 wexp. Here's the annoying thing about Muarim: he OHKOs far too much. He doubles just about everything (1 myrm and the 1-E boss are missed), but that doesn't help when the only thing he 2 hits are bandits and generals. Even the dragonmasters are 1HKOd, since they have precisely 46 (hp + def). How many combats will he enter in his chapters? I think 40 would be a gift. Maybe I'm off, though.

And he needs something in 4-4 to be good durably. I know, you'd think with his hp and def he'd be fine. But enemies have >40 mt now and double him and have real crit values. Resolve or a speedwing or something help, fortune and a speedwing makes him a great tank. We probably aren't holding the 3-9 speedwing for 3 chapters, though. And most people sell fortune. Really, his only option is Resolve, and we do have 2 now so I suppose one could go to him in 4-4. It's still not optimal, but it's something. I remember calculating his chances of dying many many pages ago and they didn't look good for him.

Resolve helps, though. It's also good that 33 speed happens to double all non-swordmasters. And he should have a C something with Tormod or Vika if we tried. He's even got a prayer in 1-E with one of them despite having no chapter bonus in 1-7. No chance of a B until 4-E, though, and Tormod and Vika likely aren't going, so he's back to a C until at least 4-E-2. And that's assuming we break a support in the DB for him. Otherwise he gets a C in 4-E-2 rather than a B.

[Interceptor]

Maurim is not optimal for Resolve, but he should be pretty close, no? We do have access to him in base. I never really use him much though, so I don't recall how well he's doing even with it.

[Narga_Rocks]

Maurim is not optimal for Resolve, but he should be pretty close, no? We do have access to him in base. I never really use him much though, so I don't recall how well he's doing even with it.

I'm thinking of searching for my post, but I think it could be 50 pages ago so I'm not enthusiastic about the idea. It shouldn't be too hard to adjust the numbers for resolve, and I (or vykan) brought up the possibility and I looked into it a little, so I might have chance of death numbers.

Without resolve, there's actually a small number of enemies with a chance to ORKO him, believe it or not. Actually, even with Resolve those two warriors (I think it was 2) can still ORKO him. Stupid crit chance.