OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

I realize that. However, Edward's level is still inflated.

Blegh, forget that Seraph Robe thing. If you're going to compare Nolan to Edward with a Dracoshield in order to check levels, give Nolan the Dracoshield, too. It's only fair.

But we give Nolan an Edward support. If you give Nolan the dracoshield, Edward becomes less usable, and as such shouldn't be in play. Nolan is down one option for +def, and Aran's is about 2 chapters slower because Edward showed up earlier. So you don't really need to compare Edward with Nolan and the dracoshield. He gets +1 or +2 from his support with Edward, and to compare him with the dracoshield he loses that. At times, that's +1 def with the draco instead of +2, and at other times it's not even +1.

[_____]

But we give Nolan an Edward support. If you give Nolan the dracoshield, Edward becomes less usable, and as such shouldn't be in play. Nolan is down one option for +def, and Aran's is about 2 chapters slower because Edward showed up earlier. So you don't really need to compare Edward with Nolan and the dracoshield. He gets +1 or +2 from his support with Edward, and to compare him with the dracoshield he loses that. At times, that's +1 def with the draco instead of +2, and at other times it's not even +1.

What kind of twisted logic is that? Dracoshield Edward does not suddenly become Meg-level bad and will never be played. Hell, it's possible Nolan will drop Edward as a support once Zihark becomes an option, anyway.

[grandjackal]

But we give Nolan an Edward support. If you give Nolan the dracoshield, Edward becomes less usable, and as such shouldn't be in play. Nolan is down one option for +def, and Aran's is about 2 chapters slower because Edward showed up earlier. So you don't really need to compare Edward with Nolan and the dracoshield. He gets +1 or +2 from his support with Edward, and to compare him with the dracoshield he loses that. At times, that's +1 def with the draco instead of +2, and at other times it's not even +1.

What kind of twisted logic is that? Dracoshield Edward does not suddenly become Meg-level bad and will never be played. Hell, it's possible Nolan will drop Edward as a support once Zihark becomes an option, anyway.

...I showed a page back how that's absolutely not true ;;>>

I mean, the draco only makes Nolan tougher. On the other hand, Eddie has better offense and the draco could make him generally as tough as Nolan. Nolan's already pretty tough as it is. Hmmmm....

Edited August 30, 2009 by Robo Ky

[_____]

...I showed a page back how that's absolutely not true ;;>>

No, 90 percent of the supports argument was showing that Edward does better with a Nolan support, not that Nolan does better with an Edward support. You mentioned that Zihark/Nolan at B only has 5 avoid over Edward/Nolan A while losing by 1 defense, but I'm fairly certain that the +1 defense is not turning any 2RKOs into 3RKOs, and in a chapter or two, Zihark/Nolan will have 23 avoid compared to that +1 defense that doesn't change anything.

I mean, the draco only makes Nolan tougher. On the other hand, Eddie has better offense and the draco could make him generally as tough as Nolan. Nolan's already pretty tough as it is. Hmmmm....

You're saying that Edward with a resource levels much faster than Nolan without one. It is only logical to give Nolan the same resource in order to determine the actual leveling speed of the two.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Ninji

[Narga_Rocks]

...I showed a page back how that's absolutely not true ;;>>

No, 90 percent of the supports argument was showing that Edward does better with a Nolan support, not that Nolan does better with an Edward support. You mentioned that Zihark/Nolan at B only has 5 avoid over Edward/Nolan A while losing by 1 defense, but I'm fairly certain that the +1 defense is not turning any 2RKOs into 3RKOs, and in a chapter or two, Zihark/Nolan will have 23 avoid compared to that +1 defense that doesn't change anything.

Well, I like my Nolan that doesn't get 2HKOd by tigers in part 3, thanks. Sure, he could use a dracoshield to accomplish the same thing, but if Edward is being played, why not get him that +2 defence and get Edward +2 defence as well? Besides, he'll actually have an A in 1-8, and that's an 8 avo improvement over the C Nolan x Zihark they'd have at that point. By 3-6, it's 30 avo vs. 23 avo and 2 defence. Considering making Nolan x Edward means we can put the draco on someone else (not even necessarily Edward), I'd say it seems worth it, considering 7 avo in 3-6 isn't changing Nolan's fortunes much. You say Edward is the only one benefitting from the Nolan x Edward, I say Zihark is the only one benefiting from Nolan x Zihark, at least until part 4 when Nolan finally has good speed, but even then it's 4 chapters at the end compared to more chapters elsewhere.

I mean, the draco only makes Nolan tougher. On the other hand, Eddie has better offense and the draco could make him generally as tough as Nolan. Nolan's already pretty tough as it is. Hmmmm....

You're saying that Edward with a resource levels much faster than Nolan without one. It is only logical to give Nolan the same resource in order to determine the actual leveling speed of the two.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Nolan isn't leveling any faster with that draco. Don't see why he would. Nolan can already be sent out to do stuff as is, Edward can't do as much. With the draco, it's easier to raise Ed, but it was already simple enough to raise Nolan.

[grandjackal]

Considering that Zihark's entire reason for being that high was basically from the fact he was supporting Nolan...What does that bode for him? I mean we showed that Eddie is actually the superior supporter...;;>> What does that speak of Eddie?

[Narga_Rocks]

Considering that Zihark's entire reason for being that high was basically from the fact he was supporting Nolan...What does that bode for him? I mean we showed that Eddie is actually the superior supporter...;;>> What does that speak of Eddie?

Z's also so high because of his part 1 offence. Sure, his durability isn't so hot, but it's his offence that gets him points there. As for Z needing Nolan, it actually goes faster with Volug, despite Volug's time spent away in 1-6-2 and 1-8. A C Zihark x Volug is still simple enough in 1-8, and a B for 3-6, and then it's actually somewhat reasonable to get an A for 3-12, unlike with Zihark x Nolan where they'd need an additional 3 turns adjacent in 3-6 to pull it off. (12 turns total compared to 9) Basically, Zihark gains more from Volug, and Nolan more from Edward. However, Volug usually isn't sent to 4-E, but it's still just ~2 chapters compared to the rest of the game. Besides, people would complain loudly if Zihark dropped to upper mid.

[grandjackal]

I see no reason he shouldn't drop. He specifically needs Earth, of which he specifically needs Volug since Nolan has been shown he doesn't want anything to do with him. This in turn deprives another good unit of a support she'd love and is practically her only real option (Jill). Without earth support, he's basically screwed in any way I could imagine part 3 compared to most of the cast save like Meg and Fiona.

I mean, without Earth? All he basically has is part 1 offense.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

I see no reason he shouldn't drop. He specifically needs Earth, of which he specifically needs Volug since Nolan has been shown he doesn't want anything to do with him. This in turn deprives another good unit of a support she'd love and is practically her only real option (Jill). Without earth support, he's basically screwed in any way I could imagine part 3 compared to most of the cast save like Meg and Fiona.

He was already screwed in part 3, except for 3-12. A B earth in 3-6 and effectively a B earth in 3-13 (thanks to stars) was never reliable, so the only difference between Zihark and another unit 2HKOd by cats was that he needs less healing, and while that's good it isn't enough to make him awesome. As Int loves pointing out, if you raised Leo even he does better since as long as you leave his opponent at full hp it'll never move and almost half the time Leo doesn't even get attacked. Leo can then go and pick off the cats and tigers around him at his leisure. Also, if you try really hard you can even make it the one A strike cat that starts nearby either making it even easier for Leo to survive it or possibly even by 3HKOd by the weak little thing and not even need healing as often anyway. And his 2 range game is vastly superior to anybody not named Micaiah, and she spends a fair amount of time healing. And that's his unassisted 2 range game, as in just his personal weapon. Throw in wrath or resolve or beastfoe and his offence is epic.

This is in fact part of the reason why he's lower than he used to be. Well, that and the offensive stomping Mia gives him in part 4. And Nailah's outperforming in all their shared chapters and Zihark having only 1-6, 1-7, and 3-12 to attempt to counteract her wins in 1-8, 1-E, 4-1, 4-4, 4-E. It was inevitable.

If you want him to drop, the hawks are next in line.

[grandjackal]

The dude has 5 chapters on Eddie at best. Eddie can be pretty awesome prior, and destroys him part 3 onward. Apparently Leo can do better as well, and it's goddamned Leo.

I think the DB need a facelift overall on this list. I honestly find Leo and Eddie vastly underrated (...Ok, not so much Leo, but seriously? Below Rolf? For how hax Leo can be part 3?), while I find Zihark vastly overrated. Zihark literally has part 1 offense, then that's it for basically the rest of the game. Sure he's hard to hit later on, but dodging shouldn't even be a problem by then. Hell, sooner or later it's utterly useless. Fucking Lucia has ways to be better than Zihark part 4.

I mean, if Eddie's this flexible and useful over this time, I see no reason he shouldn't be upper mid with Jill and Aran. Zihark I honestly feel could go to mid, but you guys know how I can overreact...

I mean, I see him no more useful than a dude like Brom.

Zihark is nowhere near the hax that is the hawks.

Speaking of which, I may have found another unit in the DB who might want a speedwing...X3

OK, here's the story. This is assuming 20/1 Leo, of which you might say is rediculous, but I say it's not hard to slowplay him with how soon he caps skill. He's basically got this.

28.6 HP, 15.4+2or3 Str, 21 Skill, 16.6 Speed, 16.4 Luck, 11.6+2or3 Def, 12+2or3 Res

Simple A can let him survive anything, though a +3 would be nice. Now, Lughnasahd prevents him frm being doubled by...Everything. However, +2 Speed he is only doubled by faster cats. However, 2 levels, how many of you knew he could double weaker end cats with Lughnasahd and ORKO them? Yup, no Beastslayer required. Even without a wing, he can double all tigers at that point. He can 2RKO them with Lughnasahd, basically cutting them down to half size. However, with a speedwing he is doing hte majority of this with Lughnasahd alone. This means he don't NEED beastslayer, of which Nolan could use to get the same effect. Speedwing with Nolan would indeed improve his offense, but Leo as a wall can function in a more effective manner due to no melee. Basically a speedwing makes Interceptor's strategy twice as effective. With Lugh at level 20/3 with a full Mt support, he can reduce weaker tigers down to like 18 health, where Michaiah could just nuke them. Could still cut even big mean tigers down to size this way.

On top of this, it does have long term effects. Namely 27 AS by tier 3, which as you know is the magic number for part 4. Even considering, he's still got Lughnasahd. Speaking of which, this weapon allows him to only have 29 AS and can still use Nasir to double auras. Meaning he's not taking a Brave or the Double Bow. Pity that even with the wing he can't get to 34 AS naturally. If he could, Lughnasahd would allow him to double without Nasir. Then there's the resistance factor, the fact he's pretty much never missing...Now THIS I might be overreacting about, but...It's there.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

The dude has 5 chapters on Eddie at best. Eddie can be pretty awesome prior, and destroys him part 3 onward. Apparently Leo can do better as well, and it's goddamned Leo.

I think the DB need a facelift overall on this list. I honestly find Leo and Eddie vastly underrated (...Ok, not so much Leo, but seriously? Below Rolf? For how hax Leo can be part 3?), while I find Zihark vastly overrated. Zihark literally has part 1 offense, then that's it for basically the rest of the game. Sure he's hard to hit later on, but dodging shouldn't even be a problem by then. Hell, sooner or later it's utterly useless. Fucking Lucia has ways to be better than Zihark part 4.

I mean, if Eddie's this flexible and useful over this time, I see no reason he shouldn't be upper mid with Jill and Aran. Zihark I honestly feel could go to mid, but you guys know how I can overreact...

I mean, I see him no more useful than a dude like Brom.

Zihark is nowhere near the hax that is the hawks.

It's not like Zihark is bad in part 4. Well, before he promotes his proc rates won't be amazing, not with a 14mt steel sword forge. Even at level 15, he's pulling 21 str for 35 mt and 40 crit. Since his best supporters are basically Volug and Jill, he's not getting +mt. Micaiah would take him if he was willing, though probably not until 3-6. I can't see a reason for Leo to take him. So 35 mt and lets assume he never ever gets hit. He could take a silver blade for 16 mt and 37 overall, but it drops his crit from 40 to 25. So with 35 mt in 4-1 he 4 hits warriors and halbs and 3 hits with a sliver blade. Adept and the silver blade would likely make a higher proc rate than adept and the forge, but he lacks a mastery and 25 crit means like 5% crit rate. 55.78% proc rate with the silver blade 3HKOing and having adept. With a steel forge, he's pulling 20% crit rates and needs either a crit or double adept. He 5 hits with a brave, btw, and needs something. Crits will still only be 5% so he's mostly counting on adept, and he'd be burning through the thing like crazy. He'd reach almost 80% though, but consider he generally takes 4 or 5 uses off the thing per enemy and it's a little crazy. Back to the steel forge,

0 adepts: 49%

1 adept: 42%

2 adepts: 9%

with 0 adepts, 2 shots at a crit, with 1 adept, 3 shots, with 2 adepts, it dies anyway.

0 adepts: 36% chance of pulling it off.

1 adept: 48.8% chance

So, .49 x .36 + .42 x .488 + .09 = 47.136%.

So he's choosing between 55.78% and 47.136% but the forge won't miss and the blade might. So high 40s proc rate. Considering what everybody else can do that can 3HKO with a crit forge and double and take adept with around the same speed and they have masteries, well, they tend to go over 80% proc rates. Almost double his. He has more than twice the chance of leaving things alive. In some cases 3x.

That said, at least he doesn't die much and can cause a fair amount of damage to the enemies and pull a chance at killing something. Then in 4-4 if he's promoted he can also have a silver forge and he'll be pulling high proc rates too. I'm pretty sure that an A Jill would also make him pretty resilient, though he's not going to be invincible and his lower def will matter. And Jill is good in the desert and he isn't.

Just a note, a 20/3 Mia is basically 1RKOing those same halbs and warriors in 4-1 with a silver blade, then in 4-4 she can nab the vague katti and ORKO stuff (including halbs and warriors), then partway through grab the tempest blade and ORKO stuff. And 3HKO the generals with a silver forge which results in near 90% proc rates if she has adept. Yeah, she's nuts.

Anyway, comparing him to her is kinda mean, so just focus on the fact that he can kill a fair number of things. Also ignore that he's 5HKOing generals even with a silver blade and he's 6 or 7 HKOing them with a steel sword forge. Yeah, IS is mean to the DB members because none of them are likely to get past --/15 or so in part 3. Oh well.

Anyway, since Edward isn't gonna be promoted either, lets say level 20/12 Edward. Um, yeah, 24 str. Oops. Looks like 38 mt with that forge and 40 mt with a silver blade. Oh, and 39 mt with Caladbolg, for the curious. Lessee, Zihark at level 15 has 30x2 + 16 + 15 + 60 = 151 hit with a silver blade. Edward has 28x2 + 21 + 8 + 15 + 60 = 160 hit with a silver blade. Then there's caladbolg and it's 85 hit and +8 luck. Um, yeah, 193 hit. Egad. Somebody isn't missing. 4 hits all the generals with a silver blade, 4 hits most of them with caldbolg and isn't far from doing the same with a steel forge. Also, 3 hits all those halbs and warriors with a steel sword forge. So yeah, his proc rate is gonna be way higher and he'll do more damage with no procs. And he'll also only be losing avo by about 9 to Zihark at this point considering 5 more luck and caladbolg's 8 vs. 22 extra avo from the double earth. So yeah, 9 avo down (well, 13 since I gave Ed a level with about 28 spd), but 40 hp and 17.45 def with just his support vs. 36hp and 16 def for zihark. So yeah, if he's losing durability at all, it isn't by much. When Ed isn't equipping the Caldbolg, it's a 17 point difference, but oh well, he'll be winning offence by even more if he's chosen to equip something else.

Anyway, I suppose you could actually say Ed would win part 4, but I think everyone knew that already. The thing is, compared to a lot of other units (the ones that don't double) Zihark is still doing fairly well and should have higher proc rates than most of them. Though with a 50% proc rate compared to other units' 80+% rates, I'm not sure he deserves adept until 4-4, so that's a bigger loss in 4-1/2.

I guess it's a matter of Edward is rather underwhelming in part 1 and Zihark is above average. That's a pretty big difference since it lasts for 4 chapters. Maybe it's not a 3 tier gap difference, though. Unless someone proves Edward's a danger to himself and others in part 1, I don't quite see how a 3 tier gap is justified either. But Zihark's wins in those 4 chapters are on another planet compared to Edward's minor wins in part 4.

[RPGslave]

I definitely agree with Robo Ky (yay guilty gear!). How Ed is underneath Tormod, Stefan, and Volke is baffling. All three of them have crappy availibility that screws them over. Tormod at least has part one utility, but the others...not so much.

Although Nolan could get the dracoshield, it doesn't hurt him that much. He can receive a defense boost from a support with Ed, along with some much needed accuracy as well. Not only that, giving Ed the dracoshield means he can help Nolan on the front-lines. Nolan tends to survive better when the enemies are attacking him and Ed, instead of solely attacking him.

[grandjackal]

You forgot there is a possibility of one using Adept as well, that being Sothe. Just because Zihark has it doesn't mean he absolutely deserves to keep it. Has been shown that Sothe's offense is better than his, and his proc rate is barely that much further off. I'd rather Sothe activate a proc with his Volug might Daggers than...Whatever the fuck Zihark's doing. Zihark certainly doesn't want to keep it for part 3 if he wants to stay safe.

It isn't just 4 chapters of awesome. Eddie's got that too, which is all the time he had prior to Zihark, of which he could basically possibly Nolan on crack. On top of that, he's making another person more awesome just by being around. Zihark can;t pull this off till like near part 3. Zihark may be great offensively, but he's completely masturbatory in nature. I mean, it's as rediculous as Tormod being in lower mid above Eddie in the first place. 3 chapters of being SORT of better does not suddenly put you above them. I can understand Tibarn being where he is because he's practically joining to be the best offensive unit ever. Tormod is not any srt of hax deserving lower mid. Even in part 3 though, he starts to lose it to his own team. It's just 4 chapters, of which Eddie's got on him and an extra from the chapters prior. Then afterwards, Eddie just starts to be better regardless. For what Zihark needs for part 3 (a quick support, with a specific affinity, with which Eddie can easily pull off by then for a much longer time), I'd say being worse and a loner on top of it is doing no one favors. This, and I still think Volug and Jill are generally better supports. Same affinity anyways, similar move, Volug gets defense from her he wouldn't get from Zihark.

Double Earth is very overrated, and Jill is by no means dependent on Zihark. Past part 1, Zihark runs into the problem of being very dependent.

Eddie isn't necessarily underwhelming, as he's A. Nolan's best support, and B. I could solve many of his problems with the simple action of "Use Item". Zihark needs supports with specific people, who might not even want him. Double Earth doesn't even save him, why would Volug or Jill care for him when they got eachother?

Edited August 30, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

Speaking of which, I may have found another unit in the DB who might want a speedwing...X3

OK, here's the story. This is assuming 20/1 Leo, of which you might say is rediculous, but I say it's not hard to slowplay him with how soon he caps skill. He's basically got this.

28.6 HP, 15.4+2or3 Str, 21 Skill, 16.6 Speed, 16.4 Luck, 11.6+2or3 Def, 12+2or3 Res

Simple A can let him survive anything, though a +3 would be nice. Now, Lughnasahd prevents him frm being doubled by...Everything. However, +2 Speed he is only doubled by faster cats. However, 2 levels, how many of you knew he could double weaker end cats with Lughnasahd and ORKO them? Yup, no Beastslayer required. Even without a wing, he can double all tigers at that point. He can 2RKO them with Lughnasahd, basically cutting them down to half size. However, with a speedwing he is doing hte majority of this with Lughnasahd alone. This means he don't NEED beastslayer, of which Nolan could use to get the same effect. Speedwing with Nolan would indeed improve his offense, but Leo as a wall can function in a more effective manner due to no melee. Basically a speedwing makes Interceptor's strategy twice as effective. With Lugh at level 20/3 with a full Mt support, he can reduce weaker tigers down to like 18 health, where Michaiah could just nuke them. Could still cut even big mean tigers down to size this way.

On top of this, it does have long term effects. Namely 27 AS by tier 3, which as you know is the magic number for part 4. Even considering, he's still got Lughnasahd. Speaking of which, this weapon allows him to only have 29 AS and can still use Nasir to double auras. Meaning he's not taking a Brave or the Double Bow. Pity that even with the wing he can't get to 34 AS naturally. If he could, Lughnasahd would allow him to double without Nasir. Then there's the resistance factor, the fact he's pretty much never missing...Now THIS I might be overreacting about, but...It's there.

It's harder to raise Leo than Edward, though. I have a hard enough time seeing Edward at level 19 for 3-6 (close enough to bexp and seal for cheap), let alone Leo. I'm thinking Ed's lucky to see level 17 (seal at 18 or 19 after as little bexp as possible), and Leo maybe 15. Ed doesn't have the greatest enemy phase, but at times I think he could do something to help level more, especially if given a draco. If you can get him to level 20 somehow for 3-6, then sure, give him one of wrath, resolve, beastfoe and watch him wail on things. Resolve doesn't help with tigers and also it goes well on Mordy anyway, so I guess focus on wrath and beastfoe. Also, beastfoe on Nolan requires trading out Tarvos for enemy phase. Seriously, you do not want him standing there with a 54mt weapon on enemy phase. 20/1 Nolan has 18 str and so 72 mt with it. He's OHKOing tigers. And not just the weak ones, all of them. So he's sitting there with a bronze axe with 15 mt on enemy phase. Actually, that's not so bad. 33 mt with a weapon that doesn't crit. Pretty good, really. Pull out Tarvos (save money and not buy crossbow or bowgun) and plow away. Or if you want him attacking something at range I suppose he needs a bowgun or something. Anyway, if you have someone around to trade with Nolan, he could actually be viable on the front lines. Only problem is he's like just about everybody else and is 2HKOd, but since his crit on the enemy would be 0 we know he'd never clear space in front of himself, and he'd be doing decent damage on enemy phase to the thing in front of him.

I vote wrath on Leo, and find a way to get him there. Even if he's not "tanking" he's still your best two ranger here since Micaiah can be busy and Leo's doubling tigers and getting a really good chance at wrath. As you said, he 2RKOs, so one crit in two attempts.

[grandjackal]

By no means would I say Leo should rise as high as Eddie, wherever he may go, but I still think Leo should rise. I'm aware of the troubles of Leo.

However, never thought of giving Leo Wrath for part 3...

[Narga_Rocks]

You forgot there is a possibility of one using Adept as well, that being Sothe. Just because Zihark has it doesn't mean he absolutely deserves to keep it.

Though with a 50% proc rate compared to other units' 80+% rates, I'm not sure he deserves adept until 4-4, so that's a bigger loss in 4-1/2.

And when I talked about Ed's proc rate being higher that was assuming Ed would be using one of the three adepts.

By 4-3/4/5, a lot of units are pulling over 80% with adept, so you might as well give it to the unit that will face the most combat. Since that tends to be the more durable units...

And yeah, Leo with wrath is funny. Take a unit that doubles, get it to wrath range, give it an innate crit rate of 10, an overkill skill growth, and let it start 3-6 with 25 crit with it's best weapon. Add wrath, get 75 crit. Now put him up against low luck tigers with 6 or 7 cev. 67% crit rate, and doubles.

Come out with an:

89.11% chance of killing something. Considering tigers are usually the problem units and other units can kill the cats, Leo really doesn't need beastfoe to disintegrate tigers. And as he levels he has a 75% skill growth, or said another way his crit goes up by .375 each level. At 20/2, he has 76 crit, at 20/5, he has 77, for 70% crit on 7 luck tigers and a 91% proc rate.

[grandjackal]

And you people doubted me when I said Leo is teh hax for part 3...Seriously, that's nuts. I believe similar proc rates are gotten from like Naesala with Adept ;;>>

Best part is, frees up Beastfoe for Braver Jill or hax Volug. I mean fuck, knife Sothe. Hell, I could give it to Aran, he'd basically 2RKO everything.

In fact, 20/1 Aran with a maxed forged Bronze and Beastfoe is pulling off 47 Mt. This not only negates his crit so it's perfectly safe, but he's leaving cats in like single digit HP. This means with him, I could potentially kill 3 things on player phase, he sucks down like a vulnerary or something and rince/repeat. He can 2RKO all types of tigers as well. Considering his high skill and how accurate bronze is, his chances of missing are pretty zilch.

Even more hilarious, an offense support at A, if he gets 5 levels? He can actually OHKO the weaker cats. Stupidly lol, but it's there.

So Narga, whatchya think of Leo and Aran supporting?

For greater lulz, the Brave Bow is obtained in 3-6. Leo has absolute monopoly over this for the DB part 3.

Then factor he's the only dude who can operate the ballistae outside of NPCs, and that he can OHKO hawks even at base level this way, of which are the most dangerous enemy there for obvious reasons in 3-13...

Edited August 30, 2009 by Robo Ky

[_____]

Bronze can't be forged. That should be obvious from the "Bronze can't crit" thing.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Ninji

[Florete]

I think it's time to stop the overrating of Edward and the underrating of Zihark.

First problem is the Dracoshield. Edward is not entitled to it, and neither is he "Doritos" for it. It's been shown that Nolan would like it, and I know Jill can make good use of it as well (Seraph Robe is better for her, but Shield is still good). Sothe can use it to help him near the end of part 1 and in part 3. And of course, Zihark himself can use it. But let's see how Edward actually makes use of the Dracoshield. Assuming he uses it sometime in 1-P, so at 1-1:

Lv 5 w/out, 20/5 HP/Def (25 ORKOs, 15 2RKOs)

Lv 5 w/, 20/7 HP/Def (27 ORKOs, 17 2RKOs)

9/11 of 1-1's starting enemies have from 17-21 atk, aka the Shield does nothing for him. I suppose it's worth noting that one of the other 2 is the boss, but 2 enemies is rather underwhelming. Oh, but it should be noted that even with the Shield, Isaya + the Hand Axe guy next to him will kill Edward anyway. So the Dracoshield might as well do nothing in 1-1.

Not much changes for 1-2. He might gain another point of HP, but it's still unlikely for him to have gotten Def. If we assume he only got HP, he now takes 16/18 atk with the above numbers for 2RKOs. 10/15 of 1-2's starting enemies have 18+ atk, but only 1 has 16-17 (The rest have 15 or less), and even all the reinforcements have 15 or 18+. So the Shield helped Edward against a single enemy here. Lol.

I won't go into 1-3 detail, just note that most enemies have 20+ atk, so the Shield does squat for him there as well. In 3 maps, the Shield has helped him against 3 enemies. Amazing.

Oh, and 1-4 is the same deal. We've seen how Edward can almost be OHKOd, so a Shield most definitely doesn't make any 2RKOs into 3RKOs.

At this point, if anyone wanted to argue "But Zihark/Jill come later! Edward can use it for longer!" I'd argue that ~3 enemies isn't good enough.

It might help him in 1-5, since he's built at least a C and probably gotten some Def of his own. Assuming he's lv 10, 20 atk 2RKOs shieldless Edward and 22 2RKOs Edward w/Shield. 4 physical enemies have 20-21 atk, 13 have 23+. Nevermind the Shield doing much for him here, and he's probably overleveled anyway.

So now Zihark and Jill show up, and Edward has put the Shield to use for maybe 10 enemies in 6 maps. Yeah, did anyone actually look at how the Shield would help edward before giving it to him?

Enemy atk numbers are getting higher (1-6-1 at a quick glance I see a lot of 23+, which Edward likely isn't seeing the 3RKO to yet). Jill with a Shield increases her atk 2RKO number from 25 to 27, and 3 enemies in 1-6-1 reach that area, only one enemy higher (at 27 actually). So Jill has already turned all (but one of) her 2RKOs into 3RKOs. W/out Shield, it takes 21 to 3HKO, w/Shield, it takes 23, but only one enemy reaches that, however, seh can take more combinations of attacks as well (Like being able to take a 24 atk + 26 atk with the Shield when she couldn't without).

But what about Zihark, the real guy in question? It takes 28 to 2HKO him at base, and nothing in 1-6-1 or 2 reaches that, and only 2 enemies (one being the boss) in 1-7 reach it. 3RKOd >>>>> 2RKOd, so Zihark is already stomping Edward in everything. With the Shield, he increases 3HKO numbers from 23 to 25, and a whopping 10 1-6-1 enemies fall into the 23/24 atk range. Basically, Zihark gets the Dracoshield and makes more use of it in 1 map than Edward has done so far in 7.

Lol at Edward making significant use of the Shield.

This in turn deprives another good unit of a support she'd love and is practically her only real option (Jill).

ZiharkxJill? Neither one would mind, and then you even have the option of sending them together to the GM's if you feel like it.

Actually, Zihark with A Jill and a Dracoshield is better for 3-6. Place him in a thicket and he has 31/18 HP/Def, which means he can now take a 39 atk Tiger + 27 atk Cat, and with +1 Def, 29 atk Cats as well, on top of having +40 from his base avoid, which gives him something like 110 avoid, so he's seeing 25-30 hit rates on enemies.

On the other hand, 17/1 Edward is sitting on 32/10.55 HP/Def, 12.55 Def with A Nolan, 13.55 in a Thicket as well, and 15.55 with the Shield. Even rounding up, 39 + 27 will still kill him (For 34 damage total to his 32 HP, so even A Leo/Aran/etc still wouldn't save him) and he has 97.5 avoid (That's stats + support + terrain + Caladbolg), so he still sees higher Hit rates.

There's a reason Edward is so low and Zihark is that much higher than him. In fact, after actually seeing these numbers myself, I'm questioning how "bad" Zihark really is in 3-6, since A Jill shouldn't be too difficult (IIRC, they have a 01, and Jill flies, so it makes it easier to build with Canto and Rescue). Being able to take that kind of damage at low Hit rates actually makes him among the better units on the team, since only Volug can really claim better, maybe Nolan and even more maybe Aran.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Kaito]

Considering that Zihark's entire reason for being that high was basically from the fact he was supporting Nolan...What does that bode for him? I mean we showed that Eddie is actually the superior supporter...;;>> What does that speak of Eddie?

Even if he is the superior option, by the same logic Fiona should be low...

[Narga_Rocks]

I think it's time to stop the overrating of Edward and the underrating of Zihark.

First problem is the Dracoshield. Edward is not entitled to it, and neither is he "Doritos" for it. It's been shown that Nolan would like it, and I know Jill can make good use of it as well (Seraph Robe is better for her, but Shield is still good). Sothe can use it to help him near the end of part 1 and in part 3. And of course, Zihark himself can use it. But let's see how Edward actually makes use of the Dracoshield. Assuming he uses it sometime in 1-P, so at 1-1:

Lv 5 w/out, 20/5 HP/Def (25 ORKOs, 15 2RKOs)

Lv 5 w/, 20/7 HP/Def (27 ORKOs, 17 2RKOs)

9/11 of 1-1's starting enemies have from 17-21 atk, aka the Shield does nothing for him. I suppose it's worth noting that one of the other 2 is the boss, but 2 enemies is rather underwhelming. Oh, but it should be noted that even with the Shield, Isaya + the Hand Axe guy next to him will kill Edward anyway. So the Dracoshield might as well do nothing in 1-1.

Not much changes for 1-2. He might gain another point of HP, but it's still unlikely for him to have gotten Def. If we assume he only got HP, he now takes 16/18 atk with the above numbers for 2RKOs. 10/15 of 1-2's starting enemies have 18+ atk, but only 1 has 16-17 (The rest have 15 or less), and even all the reinforcements have 15 or 18+. So the Shield helped Edward against a single enemy here. Lol.

I won't go into 1-3 detail, just note that most enemies have 20+ atk, so the Shield does squat for him there as well. In 3 maps, the Shield has helped him against 3 enemies. Amazing.

Oh, and 1-4 is the same deal. We've seen how Edward can almost be OHKOd, so a Shield most definitely doesn't make any 2RKOs into 3RKOs.

At this point, if anyone wanted to argue "But Zihark/Jill come later! Edward can use it for longer!" I'd argue that ~3 enemies isn't good enough.

It might help him in 1-5, since he's built at least a C and probably gotten some Def of his own. Assuming he's lv 10, 20 atk 2RKOs shieldless Edward and 22 2RKOs Edward w/Shield. 4 physical enemies have 20-21 atk, 13 have 23+. Nevermind the Shield doing much for him here, and he's probably overleveled anyway.

So now Zihark and Jill show up, and Edward has put the Shield to use for maybe 10 enemies in 6 maps. Yeah, did anyone actually look at how the Shield would help edward before giving it to him?

Enemy atk numbers are getting higher (1-6-1 at a quick glance I see a lot of 23+, which Edward likely isn't seeing the 3RKO to yet). Jill with a Shield increases her atk 2RKO number from 25 to 27, and 3 enemies in 1-6-1 reach that area, only one enemy higher (at 27 actually). So Jill has already turned all (but one of) her 2RKOs into 3RKOs. W/out Shield, it takes 21 to 3HKO, w/Shield, it takes 23, but only one enemy reaches that, however, seh can take more combinations of attacks as well (Like being able to take a 24 atk + 26 atk with the Shield when she couldn't without).

But what about Zihark, the real guy in question? It takes 28 to 2HKO him at base, and nothing in 1-6-1 or 2 reaches that, and only 2 enemies (one being the boss) in 1-7 reach it. 3RKOd >>>>> 2RKOd, so Zihark is already stomping Edward in everything. With the Shield, he increases 3HKO numbers from 23 to 25, and a whopping 10 1-6-1 enemies fall into the 23/24 atk range. Basically, Zihark gets the Dracoshield and makes more use of it in 1 map than Edward has done so far in 7.

Lol at Edward making significant use of the Shield.

Which is why Edward is not the top prospect. I really don't think that there is a top prospect. I don't see the issue with giving it to almost anyone. Sothe starts running into issues as early as 1-5 depending on how not careful we are with him, you've shown Zihark can turn 3RKOs into 4RKOs. You've shown Jill can take more combinations than before. I'm sure if we looked we could see boosts for Sothe and boosts for others. I'm sure if we looked at Volug we'd see some boosts. Throw in two fire mages and then that draco makes him able to take more physical units since 13 defence is not overwhelming. There is no doritos for the draco. I'm not really sure what to do with it in a list setting. Let every DB unit be considered with it? Let none of them? The only reason we can do the doritos thing with speedwings is because Int and I proposed that having a unit able to double almost everything was superior to giving it to a unit that goes from doubling nothing to doubling a few things which is what the other unit already doubled. Or some such thing. As a result, giving it to Titania is best for efficiency. That doesn't really apply with dracos, because everyone will be changing 2HKOs into 3HKOs and 3HKOs into 4HKOs, etc.

Oh, by the way, a level 7 Edward has 21 hp and 6 defence. Cats in 1-4 have 18 mt. Edward is 2HKOd, even with a C support. Edward is 3HKOd with the shield (without needing to keep his supporter nearby). Of course, there's only one point in the entire map where you can face two cats at once, and it's in the south and Int has shown countless times that Edward can perform perfectly well in the north, but it's something. Also, since there are cats that show up in the north, it could be useful to let Edward take two hits from the same cat. Really, the usefulness of a draco on Ed depends on his level. If he is slightly underleveled, then the draco helps on some enemies. Overleveled, it helps on others. A level 10 Edward has 24 hp and 7 def. His support means 8 def. 20 mt can 2HKO him. If this level 10 Edward exists in 1-5, then there are 5 enemies that have 20 or 21 mt and now 3HKO him. If he's only level 9, he has 23 hp and either 6 or 7 def. 7 or 8 with his support. 19 or 20 mt 2HKOs him. If this Edward pulled 7 def, then it's the same as level 10 Edward. If this Edward pulled 6 def, then 19 changes to 21. There actually weren't any physical units with 21 mt so he still has the 5 from before, but now he also has the two 19 mt myrms that no longer 2HKO him but now 3HKO him with the draco. Well, another two myrm reinforcements as well. That's now 9 units in this map alone.

Back in 1-2, let's say level 7 Edward. Assuming boss kill in 1-P and some kills in 1-1 since Nolan can't do everything and frequently ends up self healing on player phase after all the tanking. Maybe it's mid 1-2, whatever. 21 hp and 6 def. 17 mt 2HKOs him. 19 mt with the draco. Including reinforcements, it's 6 enemies that he's better against. Story doesn't end there, since there are also other weak enemies. Also, it takes 13 mt to 3HKO him. There is a 14 mt Myrm. This guy pulls crit. A draco means he only causes 6 damage and a crit is 18. Edward is safe. Also, there are some 20 mt axe users. One of them leaves Ed with 7 hp. 13 mt kills him. That's like, everything. With a draco, he only causes 12 damage, leaving Ed with 9. Now it takes 17 mt instead of 13. At least 3 guys can't KO now. Two guys with 19 mt. They cause 11 damage. Now he has 10 and it takes 18. There's a 17 mt soldier. Or Ed could have pulled 22 hp and the 17 still changes to a 19, but the 20 mt guys that hit him now cause him to need 18 mt, so that soldier with 17 now can't kill him even if the second strongest mt value of enemies attacks him.

Let's say level 6 Edward. 20.7 hp and 5.7 def. He still has a shot at 21 and 6. 41.7% actually. Even if not, he's got a shot at either 21hp and 5def or 20 hp and 6 def. The first means the critical number is 16 and becomes 18. This only "helps" with one enemy, but considering enemies aren't on their own, consider all those 18 mt enemies now need a >= 17 mt enemies to do the job, so 5 enemies can't finish him off. With 20 hp and 6 def, the critical number is still 16 or 18, but now the 17 mt enemy can't combine with an 18 mt enemies to finish it off.

Even back in 1-P, he can save vulnerary uses. Leo shows up turn 3. So he activates on turn 4. If Edward finds the time to use it and Micaiah gets him to full, he has 19 hp and 7 def now instead of 19 hp and 5 def. 11 mt enemies go from 4 HKOing to 5HKOing. 12mt enemies go from 3HKOing to 4HKOing. The boss has 19 mt and normally causes 14 damage. Leaving Edward with 5 hp and anyone can KO him. With the shield, it's now 12 damage and Ed is left with 7 hp. Enemies need 14 mt to KO him and none of them have it. This is significant, since the boss doesn't stand on his own. We can kill everything else, heal Edward up, and move in to the boss and let Edward tank, or we can go in there, smack the last enemy with light and Leo's bow, have Ed double it and kill it and get countered from full hp, and now the boss can't kill Edward when he moves out. Even in 1-P Edward can use the draco shield to speed things up.

So no, he's not doritos. He's just another guy that can use the thing and help us out.

And considering, as you pointed out, he may very well be at risk of getting OHKOd, the dracoshield makes it a complete and utter non-issue. The chance of Ed not getting even one point of either hp or def in just two levels is .95%. Yeah, about 1 in 105. So if he gets two levels or more in 4 chapters before 1-4, he's almost guaranteed to be a better tank with the draco than Aran would be (draco doesn't save him from tiger blicks) simply because he will not be critblicked and can take anything once, which is really all that's needed if you do it right. And he can cause more damage thanks to doubling tigers, since 16 mt is safe and causes 12 damage to tigers, and against cats 19 mt is safe and causes 11 damage. Aran has 22 mt with a max mt iron forge, causing the same damage as Edward did to tigers, and just 3 more against cats. And if Ed happens to crit, well, Micaiah or Ilyana get a really easy enemy to kill. On average, he probably causes more damage.

Oh, as for 1-3, well sure, only myrms are turned to 3HKOs and they still have crit chance, but don't forget our somewhat limited vulnerary collection. Even at level 7, a 21hp and 6def Edward needs to use a vulnerary after getting hit, but with a draco there are lots of combinations where getting hit plus using a herb allows him to get hit again by almost everything without worrying about dying. That can be useful given the limited number of vulneraries as well as having just a one shot sacrifice with Micaiah and only one staff user.

This in turn deprives another good unit of a support she'd love and is practically her only real option (Jill).

ZiharkxJill? Neither one would mind, and then you even have the option of sending them together to the GM's if you feel like it.

Actually, Zihark with A Jill and a Dracoshield is better for 3-6. Place him in a thicket and he has 31/18 HP/Def, which means he can now take a 39 atk Tiger + 27 atk Cat, and with +1 Def, 29 atk Cats as well, on top of having +40 from his base avoid, which gives him something like 110 avoid, so he's seeing 25-30 hit rates on enemies.

On the other hand, 17/1 Edward is sitting on 32/10.55 HP/Def, 12.55 Def with A Nolan, 13.55 in a Thicket as well, and 15.55 with the Shield. Even rounding up, 39 + 27 will still kill him (For 34 damage total to his 32 HP, so even A Leo/Aran/etc still wouldn't save him) and he has 97.5 avoid (That's stats + support + terrain + Caladbolg), so he still sees higher Hit rates.

There's a reason Edward is so low and Zihark is that much higher than him. In fact, after actually seeing these numbers myself, I'm questioning how "bad" Zihark really is in 3-6, since A Jill shouldn't be too difficult (IIRC, they have a 01, and Jill flies, so it makes it easier to build with Canto and Rescue). Being able to take that kind of damage at low Hit rates actually makes him among the better units on the team, since only Volug can really claim better, maybe Nolan and even more maybe Aran.

Ed is so low because of a bad part 1. Zihark is so high because of a good part 1. A Jill needs work. They have 1-5 (while we don't control where they end their turn) and 1-6 to build to C. I'll give you that, so in 1-7 they have a C. It's still 9 adjacents in 1-7, and 1-7 is 10 turns. They have to start adjacent (only one spot on the map where a pairing can gain adjacent points on the first turn that doesn't involve Micaiah, so they are stopping another pair from gaining points). If they don't start adjacent, then they have to end every single turn from this point on beside each other. All 9 times we hit end turn they have to be adjacent. (in other words, they must start turns 2 through 10 adjacent.) If this isn't done, then Zihark x Jill are not getting a B for 1-E. Jill doesn't appear in 1-8. In 1-E, they again must spend 9 turns adjacent, but at least this one has a turn limit of 12. Anyway, we could have Jill pick Zihark up and hold him for a few turns to get 6 points each turn rather than 4, but considering tier 1 Jill doesn't have the capacity for saviour and Zihark is relying on part 1 to get his early game utility, I don't think losing multiple player phases and enemy phases for the two of them is a good way to go about it. Oh, and Zihark is supportless in 1-8, but it was only going to be a C with anyone else by that point anyway. I suppose it isn't to major. He is getting countered by everything except if he uses the brave sword on mages. Everything else the brave sword does not 2HKO.

As for the thickets, in order to only use 3 units to wall we can't use thickets. To involve thickets, the only way to maintain only 1 enemy facing per unit is to have at least 5 units walling (maybe it's 6). Considering we have to keep these units healed and prevent laguz weakened enough to suicide on enemy phase it's making the chapter far more difficult than it needs to be to involve thickets. Making the chapter harder just to make Zihark look better doesn't seem like a major point in Zihark's favour. So we are going with a level 5 Zihark? Let's give him a B Jill or Aran, considering an A Jill is so hard it's funny. Jill only has 6 move in those chapters, anyway. If she had 9, I'd say maybe you can keep them adjacent every single turn in 1-7 and almost every turn in 1-E. So you rounded up 13.5 to 14 and gave him a draco and gave him 2 levels in 4 chapters when he's getting rather small experience. Well, he's got 31 hp and 13.5 defence. 13.5 defence is actually only a 43.75% chance to get 14 defence, by the way. Or is he level 6 now? Anyway, >50% of the time this Zihark has 13 defence. So 16 defence with a draco and B Jill. Also he's got +20 avo.

31 and 16. He's no longer 2HKOd by cats, I'll give him that. But a 27 mt cat and a 39 mt tiger still finish him off. Even on a thicket, he's still down -1. And back to your saying "with +1 def", considering you gave him 14 defence already, he doesn't get 15 defence until level 11! So forget the idea he can take a 29 mt cat and a 39 mt tiger.

17/1 Edward has 32 hp and 10.55 defence. With an A anything he has 32 hp and 12.55 defence. With a draco it's possibly 32 hp and 14 def or 15 def. He also has 21 spd and 14.5 luck. So he's got: 42 + 14 + 8 + 23 = 87 avo. Zihark has 24 x 2 + 12 + 20 = 80 avo. So Zihark does not have significant improvements over Edward, considering there aren't that many 31 mt cats and after a single level Edward will likely get the hp needed to survive two attacks from a 31 mt cat anyway, and cement the 15 def. Even if you take away Caladbolg because Edward is afraid of critblicking something, that's still 79 vs. 80.

And how did you get 110? Even on a thicket with A Jill, I'm seeing 100. Even if I give him level 7 and 25 speed, I still just get 102. Also Zihark spends a long stretch of time on worst, so he could very well have 92 avo or 112. Ed goes in ~5 turn shifts, so at least we know he'll spend a few turns on best.

Anyway, giving Zihark A Jill will certainly improve his prospects as far as concrete durability go, but considering Edward with A Nolan has +23 and can strap on Caladbolg and has more luck than Zihark, it seems to me like Edward will actually end up winning avo in part 4 as well, and once we want to use something that isn't Caladbolg Edward should have a sizeable luck lead so even with being down by 7 he'll still manage to pull off similar avo. It takes until tier 3 to see Edward having more defence, but he's still somewhat close and has a much larger hp growth. Also, he'll have better hit with a silver blade, as well. Except a Silver blade only has 1 more mt than Caladbolg, and Edward soon gets more strength than Zihark and Edward will not miss with that thing. And will let him have an avo lead. Really, Edward will beat Zihark from 3-12 on, and be pretty close in 3-6 itself.

The problem with Edward has always been getting him out of his hole. Well, that and how a trained Edward is only slightly better than a trained Zihark and yet we have a fully ready Zihark to work with as soon as 1-6 whereas Edward still has a way to go so there isn't much point in training Edward.

On a completely unrelated note, let's look at the best offensive unit the DB has in 3-6 (not including a beastfoe user or BK, but including Sothe and the beastkiller, since he doesn't generally OHKO and has a miss chance). Leo. Yeah, it's silly. Let's give him 19/1, since that's the way to make the math work. I was hoping for a lower level, but such is life. Oh well, he caps skl and lck early, and str is his 3rd highest growth at this point by .05 over skl and def, so maybe it's worth trying in the 1-E base and the 3-6 base before sealing if he's close enough to the next level. Level 14/1 with an energy drop, or level 16/1 or 17/1 with A Micaiah.

19/1:

28 hp, 15 str, 21 skl, 16.25 spd, 15.75 lck, 11.25 def, 12 res.

Let's assume he's got an A wind/heaven

Also 28 hp and 13 def with support. needs to drop to 8 hp or less. There just happen to be a lot of 39 mt tigers running around that would be happy to relieve Leo of 26 hp he doesn't need. There's also a friendly level 14 cat near the starting position that can double Leo before he equips Lugh. If Leo stays away from his support partner, well he just happens to cause 22 damage with 136 hit vs. 48 avo, so 88 listed is 97.24% true hit, so it has a 94.556% chance of helping us out.

42 + 16 + 8 + 100 = 166 hit. He's bio proof. Well, almost. Level 17 cats apparently have 52 avo. Leo is a type 2 bio, so only goes down to 161. Enemies in 3-6 can go to best, or most can, anyway. so 161 hit vs. 62 avo means 99 listed or 99.99%. That's about as close to bio proof as you can get without actually being bio proof.

And a C Meg pushes it to 100% on everything no matter what, but the math doesn't work then since he'd lack the 33 mt.

15 + 2 + 16 = 33 mt.

2HKOs the weakest cats, but more importantly 3HKOs all the rest and 4HKOs the tigers.

With 16.25 spd, he has 21 with Lugh. Needs 19/3 to get 22 spd, but until then he 2RKOs all the tigers except like 2.

As before, 75 crit vs. 6 to 7 cev tigers means at least 89.11% proc rate. 90.39% on the 6 luck tigers.

Actually, I was wrong before, he doesn't pull 67% he pulls 68 or 69. So it's actually 89.76% on the 7 luck tigers.

And no, the 99.99% enemy was 7 cats, and that's only on an unlikely combination of bios anyway.

As for the cats, well they have 6 to 8 lck so he's pulling a 67% to 69% KO rate on them. Well, in the case of messed up bios he's actually pulling 66.9933% KO rate because of the teensy miss chance. Anyway, with 33 mt, even the strongest are only left with 26 hp in the case of a non-proc. The weakest are left with 19. Micaiah has 31 mt with 21 magic and an A support while using thani. So Micaiah can only actually KO the weakest, but the rest are left with 2, 3, and 5 hp. Easy pickings.

As for the tigers, okay, technically he'd leave them with 18 to 26 hp. But it happens like 10% of the time. That's once, maybe twice in the entire chapter. Far more often they are dead.

I say this not to attempt to move Leo up, because I don't really want him above Rolf, but because I just want to say that anyone who promotes some other unit's offence should first consider Leo. Even Zihark with a brave sword while quadding cats can't actually claim better since he still gets countered and he's nowhere near as good against tigers. Also, the 4 hits fail on 7 cats. Just saying.

By the way, even if he has a bit less strength because he promoted at a lower level, he still brings tigers down to embarrasing hp 90% of the time if he is level 15/1. And 4HKOs the 18 def tigers anyway so they still die 90% of the time. The others have 6 to 8 hp after a single crit, and Leo still has a 46.24% or 47.61% chance of killing them anyway on a double crit. And still has the 20 spd to do it, or 19.85 anyway. 16/1 has 20.2. Those 2 level 17 tigers now aren't getting doubled until 15/7 or 16/6 though. But again, it's two guys and he still has a 68% chance of knocking them down to 18 or 19 hp, which Micaiah can KO even without a support. And still 3HKOs cats so he gets that 67 to 69% crit rate. And he still will have a really good hit rate. Like, it drops by 3, that's it. 6 level 16 cats can now boost of pulling him down to 97 listed, and the other 7 pull him down to 96 listed, but it's still only when Leo's at bad and they are at best, and it's still really 99.85% true or 99.72% true. And he leaves them with just 2 more hp than before if he doesn't crit, so after Micaiah's help it's now 4, 5, and 7 hp.

As for the preparation, 15/1 Leo has 25.6 hp and 9.85 def, 11.85 with support. Needs to drop to 7 or less and so a 29 mt cat pulls it off with no support active and Lugh equipped. Also a 31 mt cat does it with or without support. And that's whether he gets 25 hp and 9 def or 26 hp and 10 def.

So yeah, even at 15/1 he's still the best player phase offence you've got. And since enemy phase is just about staying alive... If only we had a heron.

Oh, and if a cat is dumb enough to be in his range and untransformed and we just want to speed things up afterall, 100% ORKO, thanks for coming out. Even 15/1 Leo can do that. As for the tigers, 9 def or 10 def, so 44 or 42 damage. Leaving them with anywhere from 4 to 10 hp remaining. Again, easy pickings. And he still KOs them ~90% of the time.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Jaybee]

I know this was brought up before, but wtv.

Mordy vs Naesala: any thoughts?

Basically, I think Mordy's weakening in parts 2 and 3 do better than Naesala's fighting capabilities. And Mordy makes damn good use of Resolve.

[Zkirsche]

What happened to Elincia > Tibarn > Naesala > everyone that was below Elincia previously?

Mordy vs Naesala: any thoughts?

This has been done to the moon and back. I agree with Naesala > Mordy because of how much Naesala crushes Mordy when both exist.

Edited August 30, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

Not to mention I don't really get anything out of anyone else getting the draco. Yeah, I can make several people tougher, but we get 2 Seraph robes on top of that. On the other hand, Eddie's one of those people who can use it, then compound it with his defensive support. Only others who can do that are Aran (of which he takes a while to appear, and with the shield can basically make his existence nigh pointless), and Jill (which IS a long time of me not using it). On top of this, giving it to Eddie gives us sort of a hybrid unit. He can generally be as tough as Aran, or perhaps Nolan with it, but the thing is this allows him more exposure to put his offense to better use. It's not like the speedwings for the GM where a couple people can basically end up doubling forever with them (and you have the nerve to tell ME that Eddie has no call for the shield, yet we're shoving things up Titania's ass to do everything in our power to make her something better than "the red cav" ), it would just turn a tank into a tank. At least with Eddie, I can get a mix of both.

I lol'd at the thought of giving the shield to Sothe or Volug. They can already do ANYTHING, what the fuck's a shield gonna do? Make them do more anything-er?

So yes, I would give it to Eddie at the soonest. Why? I get 2 things out of him while Nolan I just make the one good thing about him better, even though I could easily make up for it by Eddie being his best support. Nolan could take a Seraph Robe anyways and basically get the same effect.

"But we could give the shield to Zihark! D :"

We're already giving him an Earth support he practically needs, of which he struggles to get the support rank he needs by the time part 3 rolls around. Not only am I holding on to this for so long now, but now I'm basically spoiling Zihark just to have him still be inferior part 3 anyways to most of the cast.

But whatever, your entire high tier is spoiled brats save Mia, Sothe, Nailah and the hawks. Keep him up there for all I care, but I get something out of spoiling Eddie too. At the very least, I don't see an entire three tier gap just for 4 chapters of part 1. At least put Eddie above Calill, what the hell does she have on him? Seriously? I know you're gonna say staffs, I just know it.

IMO, all high tier is a mess.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Mekkah]

Great job addressing Narga's post I guess.