OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

Sanaki > Bastian has acquired a lot of support over at Smash's tier list. But what about here? Should Bastian move up, or Sanaki down?

[grandjackal]

Thinking of endgame, I'd say a lot about Low tier has to be changed. Like even with canto, does Renning really outdo Oliver's secondary staffer utility? Unless Bastian can do something to help fast-clear 4-5, I don't see why he'd be over Sanaki.

So...No one's in disagreement that Volug and Sothe should be right next to eachother?

[Ether]

Thinking of endgame, I'd say a lot about Low tier has to be changed. Like even with canto, does Renning really outdo Oliver's secondary staffer utility? Unless Bastian can do something to help fast-clear 4-5, I don't see why he'd be over Sanaki.

So...No one's in disagreement that Volug and Sothe should be right next to eachother?

I could see them next to eachother,but Volug's gotta come down for it to happen,unless you wanna advocate moving Mia/Titania/Gatrie up with Sothe,because i definitely don;t see a tier gap there

[RNG Princess]

I think Kyza should be put below Astrid, or Astrid above Kyza.

For reasons similar to Sanaki vs Bastian.

Astrid in 2-3 and 3-9 could be deployed without taking away another fighters spot and she could easily hide behind the other units or in a tall grass tile(2-3). She's better for 3-9 because she could cover the spot from the top layer to prevent the reinforcements from climbing up and slowing up their process to catch up with the team or she could extinguish fire from houses and let the others do the fighting.

Kyza takes away a spot from someone and the laguz stone is put to better use on Ranulf or saved for another laguz.

[grandjackal]

Perhaps Volug should drop then.

As for Kyza, I believe having someone with decent durability and enemy phase outdoes whatever the hell Astrid does. Kyza might be useless the first two turns, but Astrid's useless outside of player phase and rescue-bot.

That and KYza's problems are fixable through a speed wing. It's a terrible investment, but his problems are easier to fix than hers are.

[RNG Princess]

Some of her problems could be fixed with a speedwing as well better yet a transfer, at least it would help her for the first chapter.

I don't deny he has decent durability transformed but it takes long for him to keep up unless he keeps his laguz stone and he would need an olivi grass to keep transformed.

In 3-4 he has to stay behind if he is untransformed or else the ballistae will certainly pick on him, I also noticed in hard mode that him and Astrid can't double. The thing that seems to hurts him the most is that he competes for a spot. His decent durability requires the team to slow down a little bit.

In Astrid's case she does not need to keep up in order to help a little bit, at least with the ledges in 3-9 ;).

I use magic cards for laguz to raise their transformation gauge it takes two-three turns for Kyza to be able to transform and helps keep him up as long as he is walled and has a concoction or healing item to recover from ballistae ranged attacks.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[tehnikhil]

Hey, I have a couple questions about the placement about characters.

What are the grounds for Leo>Neal? Is the argument that his chapter P-4 performance>Neal's part 2?

Also, what about Snacky vs Gareth?

Tormod vs Lucia and everyone in between?

Leanne vs Naliah? I am just thinking about the whole "lol royalz haxxorz" type of logic when saying this, since Leanne is the most fragile heron and is outclassed by her brothers, making her opportunity cost worse.

Aran vs T marcia?

T mist vs Boyd?

Sorry for asking all of these, if there are any weakly defended positions, I may attack it, but if they have been established for a reason rather than just overlooked, then I would leave it alone.

Edited February 21, 2010 by tehnikhil

[grandjackal]

Some of her problems could be fixed with a speedwing as well better yet a transfer, at least it would help her for the first chapter.

This isn't transfer Astrid we're talking about however, and in part 2 there is no speedwing readily available. You get it in her joining chapter after killing a guy at basically the end of the map, and it doesn't resurface until at least 2-E. You're basically asking if you can have Astrid take it from Haar. By Kyza's appearance, Gatrie getting crowned is enough to double as is, and Titania has other ways to bypass her speed issues (BEXP namely). While Kyza getting a wing is still highly unlikely, it's at least a possibility, and he does put it to actual use since with it he can double off the bat with 26 AS.

I don't deny he has decent durability transformed but it takes long for him to keep up unless he keeps his laguz stone and he would need an olivi grass to keep transformed.

2 turns with grass and he's good to go whenever (you don't have to transform him nstantly), 7 move keeps up fine. Tiger gauge is a good gauge to have, as it reduces at near snail pace. Smart use of the revert function, you discover that Tiger is a pretty nice class to be as a laguz. Well, until later on when doubling's not so big an issue at least.

In 3-4 he has to stay behind if he is untransformed or else the ballistae will certainly pick on him, I also noticed in hard mode that him and Astrid can't double. The thing that seems to hurts him the most is that he competes for a spot. His decent durability requires the team to slow down a little bit.

Ballistae doesn't double and are pathetically weak, if anything the ballistae targetting him is a good thing as it helps his gauge. At worst, it's a booboo he has to put a bandaid on. Then decent durability, I question that. At base, he beats out a level 18 Titania by 18 HP with the same defense. If HE requires we slow down, and Titania's a high tier unit...

While it's true that he's competing for a spot, you have to wonder how effective some could be. Titania, Mia, Ike, Haar, Ranulf, crowned Gatrie, Rhys, Mist are the obvious ones. This leaves 4. Oscar would need 5 levels or BEXP to just double, and needs a forge to outdo a winged Kyza offensively, and doesn't really come close to tieing defensively outside of Earth support giving him avoid. Brom could have a nice lead in the defense stat, btu still lose HP tremendously while getting creamed offensively (I dare not even bring up doubling issues, in that he gets doubled rather easily). A level 8 Nephenee offensively only outdoes him by 2 might with a steel forge, destroyed defensively. Boyd's something similar, though while not doubling, his durability issues are not as bad and his huge Str with stronger weapon type could potentially make up for doubling. Shinon nukes him offensively, but has problems what with the enemy phase offense. Lethe's not exactly garunteed to be doubling without assistance of her own and even then she's basically a slightly worse version of him with a more meh affinity. Lol Rolf, Soren, and Lyre. Not saying he totally outdoes the above, but he could easily slip into the team otherwise. Reyson and hte hawks arrive, it's one slot open, he could still easily supply it.

I can't help but feel like I'm forgetting someone though...

So, while Astrid's forced but likely doing little, Kyza could at least make as a temporary unit until you get something better, as he could actually start as sort of a highly balanceable character on arrival after a wing. I'd take needing a resource but at least being quite good>forced but doing next to dick

In Astrid's case she does not need to keep up in order to help a little bit, at least with the ledges in 3-9 ;).

Shooting up the ledge is akin to wasting time. If you keep her there, it might as well be suicide.

I use magic cards for laguz to raise their transformation gauge it takes two-three turns for Kyza to be able to transform and helps keep him up as long as he is walled and has a concoction or healing item to recover from ballistae ranged attacks.

*Looks at you quizically* Magic cards for Laguz when they're untransformed? Hmm...That's...Not that bad an idea, at least it wouldn't be if Daemon cards were more readily available. The common card would appear to be Reaper cards gotten throughout the game beforehand, 8 might with magic. Considering your strongest magic laguz have 6 magic, this is 14 might. Enemies in 3-4 have about 9-13 resistance as physical enemies, which is rather weak. Even Daemon Cards at best are doing 9-5 damage at best, which is like throwing money doing the drain.

At least it's untransformed chip, which certainly helps any laguz exp growth. Even Lethe would be getting Rolf at base sort of EXP untransformed and chipping (as in both chipping, not that Lethe gets Rolf kill EXP just from chipping, before anyone snipes me on my form of words).

You could say I'm questioning the worth of this idea.

[Narga_Rocks]

*Looks at you quizically* Magic cards for Laguz when they're untransformed? Hmm...That's...Not that bad an idea, at least it wouldn't be if Daemon cards were more readily available. The common card would appear to be Reaper cards gotten throughout the game beforehand, 8 might with magic. Considering your strongest magic laguz have 6 magic, this is 14 might. Enemies in 3-4 have about 9-13 resistance as physical enemies, which is rather weak. Even Daemon Cards at best are doing 9-5 damage at best, which is like throwing money doing the drain.

At least it's untransformed chip, which certainly helps any laguz exp growth. Even Lethe would be getting Rolf at base sort of EXP untransformed and chipping (as in both chipping, not that Lethe gets Rolf kill EXP just from chipping, before anyone snipes me on my form of words).

You could say I'm questioning the worth of this idea.

Actually, if the cards did damage then they wouldn't boost gauge anyway. It might help giving them a bunch of exp if you can get an enemy close enough to death that 1-4 damage can kill it, but that seems annoying. At best Lethe can cut out some required bexp to reach 26 AS for 3-8. At best. I think olivi grass is cheaper if you want to raise gauge, since tinking an enemy is no more helpful than using a grass aside from getting 1 exp for the tink. And aside from cats tigers and hawks, all the other laguz get less than 15 gauge for an encounter in which they cause no damage anyway. The cats/tigers/hawks only get 15 anyway.

[grandjackal]

Well, cats seem to have the higher magic, and untransformed they'd get more than 1 exp I would imagine (Kyza gets more exp out of said chip than Rolf would if untransformed, not that I'd advocate 3 magic with cards. Hell, Lethe would get the same exp untransformed as Rolf would from chipping). There's also several factors (is it worth grassing when the enemy is still quite a bit aways? I could grass next turn and still be ready, and for now I could magic card an enemy for the hell of it. What if I revert? Chances are if I'm reverting, I'll have meter back up by next turn anyways. No use wasting gauge just to player phase 1 enemy) of which you might not care to grass up anyways.

My problem with this is that the damage is just pathetic. Even 6 magic cats with the Daemon cards are doing 9 damage at best. If it can be used to snag a kill, I don't see why they shouldn't take it (Lethe untransformed basically has Rolf's leveling speed, imagine Kyza or Lyre who would be leveling like tier 1 units). Cards are also very very few in number, so it's not even really gonna make a huge difference. Is it worth using when you compare it to how much you can sell them? It would depend on how much you value a laguz gaining a level, as a set of reaper cards (10 uses) is at least 1 level to any of these laguz. A Daemon set makes up for 5 less uses with more probability to actually kill something, though still stupidly low. But would you honestly take a laguz gaining a level easier, or the gold for forges?

[Anouleth]

Sanaki > Bastian has acquired a lot of support over at Smash's tier list. But what about here? Should Bastian move up, or Sanaki down?

Sanaki only rises on Smash's list because it's net utility, rather than Gross, and Smash plays Communist FE.

[Narga_Rocks]

Sanaki only rises on Smash's list because it's net utility, rather than Gross, and Smash plays Communist FE.

Yeah, you could argue how much credit should really be given to free deployment. I think some weight should be given, since it's not something you can ignore exists, but maybe not enough to allow Sanaki > Bastian. Sanaki > Oliver and Pelleas is a little easier to buy with just a little help from free deployment (or depending on how you look at it "free deployment" may not even be necessary against them), but I think Sanaki v Bastian needs a fair amount of weight placed on the free deployment to conclude Sanaki > Bastian. It is, of course, reasonable to assign any amount of weight on free deployment as long as the standard is applied consistently throughout the tier list. It's one of those definitional things, since you can freely decide how heavily to weigh it.

[tehnikhil]

Well, for that, can't you make an assumption that Snacky gives X amount of usefulness to the team while Bastian gives 2X amount of usefulness to the team? Bastian is .5X worse than using other guys. Therefore, Bastian is 1.5X usefulness, while Snacky is X. 1.5X>X, so Bastian wins? Of course, assuming X is positive...

[RNG Princess]

I only use magic cards to raise Skrimir's/Kyza's/Mordecai's transformation gauge, and keep olivi grass in there for backup.

I only waste whatever I have, but maybe it is better to sell them.

I don't think wildheart is so good in hard mode so I avoid it.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, for that, can't you make an assumption that Snacky gives X amount of usefulness to the team while Bastian gives 2X amount of usefulness to the team? Bastian is .5X worse than using other guys. Therefore, Bastian is 1.5X usefulness, while Snacky is X. 1.5X>X, so Bastian wins? Of course, assuming X is positive...

Sorry, if Bastian is worse by .5X and gets 2X, then that means you could have replaced him with a 2.5X.

2X - 2.5X = -0.5X.

X > -0.5X, so Sanaki > Bastian.

The idea behind opportunity cost is that it is the value of the next best alternative forgone, so if you have a better option he becomes negative. This is why we generally wouldn't use opportunity cost of deployment in it's pure economic form here. The trouble is that there is a lot of room between assuming no cost of deployment and full cost of deployment, and it's basically an arbitrary decision.

Like Smash has complained in the past, you end up with Sanaki better than a lot of units if you apply cost of deployment to its full extent. One of his examples that you saw on his 2009 attempt at a tier list topic on gamefaqs was complaining that Sanaki would end up better than Stefan since there are clearly better options than Stefan for endgame but Stefan, when used, is way better than Sanaki. (Of course, he's exercising slippery slope here, since he used it to defend Pelleas > Sanaki and seems to think that applying a little cost for deployment means you have to apply enough cost that Sanaki goes above Stefan. Not to mention he applies said cost in other circumstances like Rolf and Edward, so he's being inconsistent as well.)

Anyway, it's why I'm wondering how much weight to put on free deployment, since Sanaki can rise or fall by a tier's worth depending on just how much weight you place on free deployment.

I only use magic cards to raise Skrimir's/Kyza's/Mordecai's transformation gauge, and keep olivi grass in there for backup.

I only waste whatever I have, but maybe it is better to sell them.

There are a lot of olivi grass to buy. It is a question of cost per use. You get 10 uses out of the Reaper Card, and it sells for 2500. You can buy an Olivi Grass for 1600, and it has 8 uses. It effectively costs 250 per use to use a Reaper Card that you find lying around, and it costs 500 per use if you buy one, and either way that is more expensive than the olivi grass.

Conversely, you get 15 uses out of a Spectre Card, and it sells for just 1500. That's 100 per use, or 200 per use if you purchase one instead of find one. Olivi Grass is still 200 per use, so if you are okay with sending a laguz so close to the enemy then it is arguably worth simply using the Spectre Card rather than selling it. Especially if you found the Spectre Card rather than purchased the Spectre Card. On the other hand, the game throws a fair amount of free Olivi Grass at you, as well, so it's only useful to not sell the Spectre Card if you'd need to purchase an Olivi Grass because of running out too quickly.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[RNG Princess]

I avoid buying things and use what I can find I remember Heather and Sothe stealing plenty olivi grass and cards. The only items I purchase regularly are staves, and I'm trying to have plenty of money to afford forging for endgame.

[Narga_Rocks]

I avoid buying things and use what I can find I remember Heather and Sothe stealing plenty olivi grass and cards. The only items I purchase regularly are staves, and I'm trying to have plenty of money to afford forging for endgame.

The Spectre cards might be worthwhile as gauge builders, but the Reaper Cards may as well just get sold. If you are running out of grass you can just buy more and I've shown that it is more cost effective to use grass than Reaper Cards.

[Anouleth]

Hey, I have a couple questions about the placement about characters.

What are the grounds for Leo>Neal? Is the argument that his chapter P-4 performance>Neal's part 2?

Also, what about Snacky vs Gareth?

Tormod vs Lucia and everyone in between?

Leanne vs Naliah? I am just thinking about the whole "lol royalz haxxorz" type of logic when saying this, since Leanne is the most fragile heron and is outclassed by her brothers, making her opportunity cost worse.

Aran vs T marcia?

T mist vs Boyd?

Sorry for asking all of these, if there are any weakly defended positions, I may attack it, but if they have been established for a reason rather than just overlooked, then I would leave it alone.

Well, generally, you shouldn't get too upset over differences of a single place. They're not really worth worrying about, and largely a difference of opinion. For example, it's not really possible to prove T Mist > Boyd, since it's largely subjective whether her healing compares to his offence. Ditto for Tormod vs Lucia. Leanne vs. Nailah I don't even want to think about.

Snacky vs Gareth is something that could be argued more... conclusively. Gareth may not even reach Sephiran in 4-E-4 since he needs to stick to Wardwood tiles, and if he doesn't his importance is limited. He could help Sanaki purge a few things... but that's not really a basis for saying Gareth > her.

4-E-5 is better for him. But against Cover tiles, most people will use Sanaki, Micaiah, Nasir or someone with Parity. If it could be shown he reduces it from 3-turn to 2-turn, and +5 strength is pretty good. At best, for the 2-turn, he's contributing 120 damage, and +10 hit for all those people too. Snacky contributes only ~30 damage, although it is against a Cover tile. So is that 90 extra damage vs Auras more valuable than Sanaki weakening in Part 4 and 4-E-3?

I'm inclined to say Sanaki>Gareth.

[Ether]

I'm gonna say Micaiah > Elincia.

Micaiah is a pretty cool gal in part one,with Thanibombing to nuke the toughest enemies directly out of existance,as well as take a massive chunk out of your average everyday enemy.This is important since not being countered in the DB is awesome,as it allows the team to live longer,since your frontliners have an extra hits worth of HP for E.Phase.

Micaiah also has sacrifice,which gives you a pseudo healer,since laura can only move once per turn until Rafiel shows up.

Sacrifice also synchs well with Wrath,since it lets her get to low enough HP,and she won;t be tanking hits anyway,while Wrath grants her a ~50% chance of blicking anything.

Micaiah also has one of two Mt boosting affinities in the DB,the other being loleo.The boost in MT is notable in that it can help people avoid counters by needing less damage on an enemy to OHKO it.

All of this happens before Elincia even shows up.She appears in 2-P,and the only thing she does is keep marcia alive,if she is even used since Neal/Haar can do fine without her once he shows up.

Elincia is great in 2-E,no doubt,as she has Amiti and Physic staves,so she is a prime contributer no matter how we approach the chapter,however,one chapter can only be given so much weight.

In part 3,Micaiah appears again for 3 chapters,and provides healing/powerful chip against the most WTFBBQ enemies in the whole fucking game,3-6 tigers.The ability to fully heal a unit like Volug with mend is pretty big here,since Volug is the only character besides BK who can take two hits without rather high investment,and Micaiah's high Mag allows her to do this,while laura needs the more expensive recover staves.

Micaiah provides more long range healing in 3-13 and 3-12,which is especially important in 3-13 because we get to fight more WTF tigers,except they get authority stars now!

Then part 4 comes along and Elincia can actually do stuff again.

And...she's not that great to start...she is 2-3HKO'd by most of the map,and there are several crossbows that OHKO.Offensively,35 Physical attack isn;t that great,and she doubles because of Amiti.Her offense picks up at --/--/8,since it lets her to Quad most of the map,however,even with paragon,she likely doesn;t reach this until near the end of the map,if at all,so she is rather mediocre here.

In 4-5,she is better,since she flies and can take out on of Izuka's guards for Tibarn,but she likely doesn;t gain very much Exp on this map.

Compared to Micaiah,who perform quite similar to her usual.in 4-P,she reduces the Paladins to single digits,and allows anyone to kill without a counter,which is cool,and she can clean up anything left alive after enemy phase if you so desire,and she still has healing utility.

In 4-3,she is a mage in the desert,which means she gets full move when most people have 2,and still provides good chip while easily keeping out of danger due to low move enemies.She also has restore for all of those status staves,and has the highest chance of picking up hidden items aside from Sothe,with triple his mobility.

For 4-E-1,she needs to be level 12 to double the majority of generals,and she probably isn;t quite there yet,even with paragon.Whereas Micaiah chips with Thani and leaves these guys in shambles,and considering how hard they are to kill,that is quite a contribution.

On 4-E-2,Micaiah snipes Levail with purge,so Ike can smash the BK faster.Advantage Micky.

On 4-E-3,Micaiah is invincible with Nosferatu,and deals enough damage to allow units to kill easily after her enemies,while Elincia kills one thing on P.Phase and then draws hits because she can't counter.To note,Micaiah is now invincible for the rest of the game,except against Ashera.Micaiah also has the liberty of saying,"hey,i'm the best Fortify user on the team,aside from Lehran,who is only available for a few turns in 4-E-5."

Fortify is important in 4-E-3 and 4-E-5,due to stupid dragons and Ashera,and is likely the only unit in Endgame who will have access to Matrona,and one of two who can touch Ashera Staff.This is cool because it allows two full heal blasts instead of just one,provided another Staffer is in play.

Elincia is notable in 4-E-5 for having some of the best possible offense against Auras,but this is far from overriding Micaiah`s superior Endgame staffing.

[-Cynthia-]

I think Elincia could move down a bit, I think Tibarn> Elincia actually.

She is kinda meh in 2-P, because only Marcia requires healing and even then not that much. She's great in 2-E.

Then 4-2 and 4-5, I think it's fairly obvious that Tibarn beats her pretty handily. ORKOing everything > 2RKOing stuff, and Tibarn is a lot more durable.

Then even with Paragon, Elincia won't be beating Tibarn in 4-E.

10 Elincia (Amiti)

40 HP 40 Atk 28 AS 23 Def 30 Res 90 Avo

Base Tibarn (SS Strike)

68 HP 56 Atk 40 AS 32 Def 20 Res 119 Avo

Yeah, I don't think staves and 2-E make up for Tibarn's leads.

[Florete]

I do remember it being proven in the past that Elincia > Tibarn, though I don't remember for what reasons.

As for Micaiah > Elincia, I could see it happening. Not sure yet, though.

To-do list:

Volug vs Sothe

Sanaki vs Gareth/Bastian

Concrete tier rules?

[Narga_Rocks]

I think Elincia could move down a bit, I think Tibarn> Elincia actually.

She is kinda meh in 2-P, because only Marcia requires healing and even then not that much. She's great in 2-E.

Then 4-2 and 4-5, I think it's fairly obvious that Tibarn beats her pretty handily. ORKOing everything > 2RKOing stuff, and Tibarn is a lot more durable.

Then even with Paragon, Elincia won't be beating Tibarn in 4-E.

10 Elincia (Amiti)

40 HP 40 Atk 28 AS 23 Def 30 Res 90 Avo

Base Tibarn (SS Strike)

68 HP 56 Atk 40 AS 32 Def 20 Res 119 Avo

Yeah, I don't think staves and 2-E make up for Tibarn's leads.

It mostly depends on 4-5, really. If you are 1 or 2 turning 4-5 then you could probably make Tibarn > Elincia. If you are, say, 7 turning or something similar, Elincia can be level 14 or so with Paragon in 4-2 and no Paragon in 4-5. Level 14 Elincia has 31 AS and 42 or 43 mt. While she's still just barely missing the ORKO of Generals (even 50hp/30def generals if 27.45 rounded down and she has 42 mt) she could have a Marcia or Reyson support or something to allow more ORKOing and Tibarn's 56 mt also misses 51hp/31def Generals. Now, granted he can also take a +mt support and get 57 mt and ORKO any Generals that lack 32 def, but Elincia with 44 mt will ORKO anything he can with 57mt anyway. Also, level 14 Elincia has 27 or 28 skill, so 4 shots at Stun means 71.601759% ORKO with 27 skill and 73.126144% ORKO with 28 skill. You could even toss Adept her way if you wanted to make things truly crazy, but Adept can get lots of units to >80% on these Generals. Elincia with 28 skill and 31 AS has 93.90847054311424% ORKO of Generals, so the significance of the difference between that and 80% is subjective.

But sure, without those important levels from 4-5 she's bound to not be as good offensively as he is here.

In 4-E-3 she at least ORKOs White Dragons, though to take out 72hp/24def dragons with Amiti she needs 27 str and I'm not sure she can hit level 14 already without 4-5. It's possible. Anyway, to pull it off with wyrmslayers she needs 60 mt, so again 27str. Any B or C +mt support drops the str requirement to 26, and level 12 should be doable by 4-E-3. Tibarn won't be ORKOing whites, and she can use wyrmslayers to do more damage on reds as well. She can even equip Alondite on enemy phase to do damage if you so desire. Depending on level they are about even on spirits, and she's better on Auras. Though she may not hit 34 AS if she didn't get to fight in 4-5.

Really, it all comes down to what RF says we do in 4-5, since I think with the levels she picks up there + the levels from paragon in 4-2, she should beat him overall.

edit:

Sorry to say, RF, it comes down to you. Without 4-5 I can easily see Micaiah > Tibarn > Naesala > Elincia. A level 10 Elincia in 4-E could maybe even drop below Laura, though that is more debatable.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

Although then even if we give her all those levels, there's still the issue of giving Elincia Paragon. She isn't the only unit in Part 4 wanting it. The issue of Part 4 Paragons have sort of been done to death, but Tibarn not taking it obviously allows another unit significantly more levelups.

Plus, while she *might* be able to catch up to Tibarn in certain offensive situations, he'll beat her defensively, though since 4-E(4) and 4-E(5) are more Res based it evens out a little.

[Ether]

And even if Elincia manages to get a longer 4-5,and thus,better 4-E-1,it still doesn;t change the massive amount of positive that Micaiah builds over her in parts 1 and 3.

[Narga_Rocks]

And even if Elincia manages to get a longer 4-5,and thus,better 4-E-1,it still doesn;t change the massive amount of positive that Micaiah builds over her in parts 1 and 3.

Micaiah > Elincia is certainly possible regardless of what happens in 4-5. Micaiah is just around so long and is never as bad as some people seem to think. The question of 4-5 is more about Tibarn. He'll certainly have some enemy phase advantages, but Stun and Cancel significantly help out Elincia's player phase durability, and Imbue + Renewal basically means if she survives Enemy Phase she can go again next phase. The enemy phase durability loss is countered by being the only staff user in 2-E (though this is also less significant if you 2 or 3 turn it) and quite possibly the only Physic user in 4-2 (Laura + Micaiah in 4-P and 4-3 and Rhys + Mist in 4-1 and 4-4 are just good ideas. Extra healers in each of them and more Restore users. Soren/Ilyana may have promoted by now, but it is unlikely they have hit C already) and a useful back-up healer for 4-E (and able to use other staves to free Micaiah up. Like, say, using Restore in 4-E-1 so that Micaiah can Fortify or something. Aside from Mist, what other staff user has 9 move and canto?).