OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

Who's better than him in the long run? All Speedwing!Kyza needs to do to remain viable in Part 4 is proc a single point of speed and get S Strike. That puts him on 37ATK/28AS - which isn't great by any means, since even weaker people like Nephenee and Mia can beat him with a forge, but is still good. 2-rounds everything in 4-P (except Generals, he 2-3 rounds them). 2-rounds a lot of stuff in 4-1, only missing Generals and a few units he doesn't double. He's better in 4-2, where he 2-rounds everything on the map again, missing Swordmasters and the odd 25AS Sniper or Halberdier. Sure, he sucks in Endgame, but many characters are in good positions on the basis of solid Part 3 performance.

(Although I don't know how he'll level up. Isn't laguz exp calculated by multiplying their level by 1.5? Then he counts as a 20/9 unit upon joining, so he might have a higher level than I'm estimating. I was assuming level 21 for Part 4, but that might be low, it's a level every two chapters.)

Edited May 31, 2010 by Anouleth

[RNG Princess]

Who's better than him in the long run? All Speedwing!Kyza needs to do to remain viable in Part 4 is proc a single point of speed and get S Strike. That puts him on 37ATK/28A - which isn't great by any means, since even weaker people like Nephenee and Mia can beat him with a forge, but is still good. 2-rounds everything in 4-P (except Generals, he 2-3 rounds them). 2-rounds a lot of stuff in 4-1, only missing Generals and a few units he doesn't double. He's better in 4-2, where he 2-rounds everything on the map again, missing Swordmasters and the odd 25AS Sniper or Halberdier. Sure, he sucks in Endgame, but many characters are in good positions on the basis of solid Part 3 performance.

(Although I don't know how he'll level up. Isn't laguz exp calculated by multiplying their level by 1.5? Then he counts as a 20/9 unit upon joining, so he might have a higher level than I'm estimating. I was assuming level 21 for Part 4, but that might be low, it's a level every two chapters.)

This is convincing but it only leads me to my next question

how is it possible that Kyza < Oliver?

You've all explained how promising Kyza is and how he can contribute a lot (maybe I'll use him to see if he can actually be decent), what does Oliver have better than Kyza does? He's pretty much filler healer since Micaiah can be first and second healer thanks to the heron anyways.

and I still find Astrid is being underrated

Edited May 31, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[_____]

You know, you bring up a good point there. I think Kyza could stand to rise a bit. In my opinion, at least, I could see him above Renning rather easily, and possibly even above Vika considering how much we weigh her usefulness in 1-7 -> 1-E, but for that to happen, he would need to leapfrog Lethe, and that's just a mess.

[grandjackal]

Another factor is his opening chapter. Note that he has 17 starting meter there rather than 0, and that while 22 AS doesn't double everything, it at least doubles some of the slower 18 AS units (I believe it's only mages, still, it's better than nothing, and I'm pretty sure he ORKOs them if that's the case.

He also, thanks to his 22 AS, doesn't get doubled by the 25 AS Swordmasters, so that's a durability advantage he has over some of your slower end units. Also, thanks to being a tiger, he can shove some of your harder to shove units, if he has to.

This is just his opening chapter though. I recall he doesn't show up for 3-5, and enemies I think get a bit of a buff in 3-7, so....

[Anouleth]

This is convincing but it only leads me to my next question

how is it possible that Kyza < Oliver?

You've all explained how promising Kyza is and how he can contribute a lot (maybe I'll use him to see if he can actually be decent), what does Oliver have better than Kyza does? He's pretty much filler healer since Micaiah can be first and second healer thanks to the heron anyways.

and I still find Astrid is being underrated

I actually agree with you. I think Oliver is too high, since even if you filled your team with Part 4 3rd tier filler, you'd still manage to find 10 people better than him, so he's always a negative.

[Narga_Rocks]

Kyza will not be going up based on any arguments that involve giving him a speedwing. Period. Opportunity Cost > Benefits, therefore net negative, therefore giving him a wing hurts him rather than helps him. Unless you can tell me how it's a better idea to give the wing to him rather than Titania/Haar. You get two, they are two units. Other units don't have as strong a case for the wing so there is the chance one of them won't be used (um, why?) but the wings are still better off in other units' hands.

Oh, and I already told you earlier the game multiplies laguz level by 2 while transformed. The 1.5x is only for bexp. He is going around like he's 20/16. Get a level? 20/18. Get another? 20/20. Granted it's still likely possible to get him to level 21 for part 4, but probably not any higher without a fair amount of bexp.

Also, 2 rounding in part 4 when any beorc that doubles is getting to around 50% kill rates thanks to their mastery? Wow. Go Kyza. Then consider all the units that are ORKOing without a mastery and it doesn't look good for Kyza.

Oh, and if Kyza truly has 17 gauge to start 3-4 then he can transform on turn 2 if you give him grass on turn 1. Normally grass lets him transform on turn 3. Of course, everything nearby is generally dead by turn 2 and he won't reach anything more until turn 3, but oh well, right? I suppose you could send him up the hill to the right and he can perhaps attack something on turn 2, but I'm not sure he'll be able to help with the rest of the map then.

Anyway, Kyza has this problem where he's 4 rounding (or worse) everything in existence. The wing is too costly a resource for him to use. This isn't smash's tier list where (in the lower tiers) the unit that wins is the one that comes out the best if you throw resources at them. That isn't remotely efficient. Unfortunately for Kyza, this is a list that not only claims to be an Efficiency Tier List, it actually tries to be as well.

[_____]

Kyza will not be going up based on any arguments that involve giving him a speedwing. Period. Opportunity Cost > Benefits, therefore net negative, therefore giving him a wing hurts him rather than helps him. Unless you can tell me how it's a better idea to give the wing to him rather than Titania/Haar. You get two, they are two units. Other units don't have as strong a case for the wing so there is the chance one of them won't be used (um, why?) but the wings are still better off in other units' hands.

I want a list of every resource in the game and who you arbitrarily designate it is going to.

Now.

[Narga_Rocks]

I want a list of every resource in the game and who you arbitrarily designate it is going to.

Now.

Isn't that more of an as needed thing? Person A tries to give a unit a resource, everyone else posting argues about how valid that choice is. Dozens of posts have been made on the worthiness of Titania and Haar for those wings. Forgive me for not thinking people need something so simple explained. I mean, they are so good for those resources that it'd be like explaining why 2 + 2 = 4.

If it had been any other stat booster except those two wings I could perhaps see it or help write an argument in favour of it. Or I'd be willing to write a real argument about why Kyza shouldn't have it. But those wings? Come on.

Also, this "arbitrarily designate" thing pisses me off. You and Smash both did it. If you don't like who I'm saying gets something, WRITE AN ARGUMENT FOR WHY IT'S WRONG. I even asked in my post to tell me why I should waste a wing on trash like Kyza rather than make gods out of Titania and Haar.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

As a note, I was just pointing out facts on Kyza's performance on a chapter he's forced in, of which his main use is once he gets to the ballista with his 9 move, he climbs up and busts one of the mages, whom I believe are thunder mages so he's not in danger of facing slayer damage. This helps your other foot units climb up, and the better people take out the balistician and move towards the boss, which helps clear out a path for Ranulf to the arrival spot that he also has to arrive to. It's a very minor thing that he's helping out here, but at least he's forced so he can actually claim credit for it.

However, I'm not advocating him a speedwing as much as I like Kyza. Only way I can think of him getting one is if you designate Titania to get her speed through BEXP after a level has MAYBE maxed out her Str, given the Talisman to be better BEXP abused from there, but even then he still has to fight for that one wing with Haar. This also means it's holding back Titania until you get the second wing, or just the fact that if we're just going to BEXP her outright, she might lose a speed point or two if early-crowned which could effect her latergame performance.

So yeah, I highly doubt he's getting a wing.

[_____]

Isn't that more of an as needed thing? Person A tries to give a unit a resource, everyone else posting argues about how valid that choice is. Dozens of posts have been made on the worthiness of Titania and Haar for those wings. Forgive me for not thinking people need something so simple explained. I mean, they are so good for those resources that it'd be like explaining why 2 + 2 = 4.

If it had been any other stat booster except those two wings I could perhaps see it or help write an argument in favour of it. Or I'd be willing to write a real argument about why Kyza shouldn't have it. But those wings? Come on.

I don't recall bringing how well Titania and Haar perform with said Wings into question. I realize that their performances are significantly bettered by receiving these items. What I do not agree with, however, is excluding the possibility of anybody else possibly getting the Wings because these units are better with them. You may throw as many economic terms (that really don't apply to Fire Emblem, but that's an argument for another time) as you wish, but I will not condone completely brushing off any other units' chances of receiving them just because somebody else uses them better like you are right now. If you're going to say that, then just eradicate units like Oliver and Renning from the list entirely, as they need to fight for unit slots with obviously better units, making them obsolete and never played because the opportunity cost of their being deployed is significantly higher than just being benched. I'm sure that Smash or CATS or GreatEclipse has probably said this somewhere, and I sound like a parrot, but frankly, if they did, in fact, say something similar to this, I can assure you that I did not know and this is my honest opinion on the matter.

Frankly, if you are just going to ignore anyone who isn't the best with a resource, I don't see why making a list of who gets what is ludicrous at all.

Also, this "arbitrarily designate" thing pisses me off. You and Smash both did it. If you don't like who I'm saying gets something, WRITE AN ARGUMENT FOR WHY IT'S WRONG. I even asked in my post to tell me why I should waste a wing on trash like Kyza rather than make gods out of Titania and Haar.

You're asking an impossible task of me, and I know you're just trying to prove your point by it, but it doesn't work that way. I can not prove that Kyza is better than Titania or Haar with a Speedwing because he is not. It's as simple as that. Titania and Haar are almost always going to be better than Kyza because they are better characters. You, however, are doubly-punishing Kyza by not allowing him any chance of grabbing a Speedwing because the characters above him are better.

Also, I know this is probably mini-modding, and to a mod, even, but there's no need to get upset and CAPSLOCK things.

Edit: Forgot to say something. I do not expect the rules of the list to change. In fact, I even helped to make this thread and the rules originally. I am merely disagreeing with Narga on this one point and this one point alone as of now.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Ninji

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually, Kyza isn't forced. Which is a shame considering the way the story goes it almost sounds like he should be forced. They talk about him before the chapter starts and act like he should be deployed.

Anyway, the thunder mages appear to have 18 or less spd. I wonder if Kyza might be good for that chapter. 9 move and only 2 move cost for gaps (I think both transformed and not he has that cost of 2, though I could be wrong). He might be helpful for taking out a thunder mage. 30 mt even ORKOs the thing. Too bad he faces 4 crit, but 26 mt against 10 res is only 48 damage and Kyza has 55 hp, so he could actually tank that crit. Since it happens rarely enough and doesn't kill him, it's fine (heal with physic if necessary). Maybe I should bring him to 3-4. Granted, Ranulf can do it too, but it would free Ranulf up for some other task. Haar doesn't want to face those things anyway.

@Ninji:

And I made it a bigger size and bolded it, too. I realize caps implies yelling over the internet but I was trying to get the focus of that paragraph onto that line. Plus I thought it looked better all caps instead of big and bold but lower case. Anyway, I don't exactly consider it mini-modding since you didn't say anything about it being against the rules, just that there's no need to go and do what I did.

As for the resource thing, I don't actually have a list for the other resources. There are good points for giving most items to multiple units. Jill and Aran have excellent arguments for receiving a robe in part 1. You have two, but one doesn't appear until 1-8 anyway. Also, there are a few other units that can make a case for them, even if it's not as good a case. The draco can go to Nolan or Jill or even some of the other guys (even Zihark). The energy drop could get decent use on many units. Volug can OHKO the fire mages and take less damage. The drops and shields in part 3 could be used in many locations. There are advantages of each. I can't think of much that is advantageous of giving the wings to anyone other than Titania and Haar. Just minor things like "Boyd can double something (general or paladin) that Titania doubles without the wing and then you could get two units able to do certain things" but I don't think that is anywhere near as positive as letting an extra unit double warriors/halbs. There are plenty of units that can be pretty good against generals/paladins that we don't really need another. Almost every stat up item in the game can go to multiple units for either similar results or results that cancel each other out. unit A takes an extra hit from enemy a, unit B takes an extra hit from enemy b. enemies a and b are equally common. Stuff like that.

Anyway, it's not that I'm ignoring everyone who isn't best with a resource. It's like the 3-3 crown. I figure if Gatrie's in play he's getting it. But if he's not there are ideas like crowning wing!Haar when he gets to 24 spd, crowning wing!Titania when she hits 25 spd. Crowning Oscar to get him past his bad cap (and give him 2 more str). Crowning Shinon to get him 3 range. Crowning Soren to get him staves. If I say that Rhys can't get it, I'm not saying he can't get it because of Gatrie. I'm saying Rhys can't get it because you have to assume you aren't using a ton of units before the gains from crowning Rhys are better than crowning the alternatives (like Ilyana or something. Not sure who is even left). It's simply not reasonable. Same with Kyza and the wing. If Kyza was #3 or even #4 in line for the wing then he'd at least be able to get it some of the time without an extreme cost. This is an efficiency tier list. If there is almost never a situation in which it is more efficient to wing Kyza than some other unit, then Kyza shouldn't be considered with the wing.

Also, the intent is not to doubly punish anyone. The intent is to be efficient. The intent is to use whatever resources we have in a way that makes things easier to clear faster/safer/etc. If it turns out this means that certain bad units never get stat up items as a result, so be it. That's the thing about trying to make an efficiency tier list: certain units get screwed over by the need to be efficient. Also, there is no reason to not stick every unit on the list. You could perhaps argue some of them for the bottom because they never get to do anything, but removing them from the list entirely wouldn't be necessary.

[grandjackal]

Well then Narga, here's the next question.

Who WOULD be #3 or #4 for the Wing? I can understand why he would lose it to Ti and Haar, but who else gets anything out of the wing in any relevent time faster than Kyza beyond those two? Ike in the emergency he's speed screwed? Everyone else is either too slow or have other easier ways to fix their speed problems (Oscar would prefer a robe and BEXP'd to his speed cap then crowned, or just BEXPd to crown, Neph shouldn't have trouble unless she got screwed).

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, when I checked the topic again, my post mysteriously dissappeared so I figured my post had vanished....that was weird.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Master Tang

[Mekkah]

Keep reposting the exact some thing, maybe it will magically force Kyza into 3-4 even though he normally isn't!!

EDIT: damn, troll ruined.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Mekkah

[grandjackal]

EDIT: damn, troll ruined.

Don't give up, you'll get me again one day.

[_____]

Actually, Kyza isn't forced. Which is a shame considering the way the story goes it almost sounds like he should be forced. They talk about him before the chapter starts and act like he should be deployed.

Anyway, the thunder mages appear to have 18 or less spd. I wonder if Kyza might be good for that chapter. 9 move and only 2 move cost for gaps (I think both transformed and not he has that cost of 2, though I could be wrong). He might be helpful for taking out a thunder mage. 30 mt even ORKOs the thing. Too bad he faces 4 crit, but 26 mt against 10 res is only 48 damage and Kyza has 55 hp, so he could actually tank that crit. Since it happens rarely enough and doesn't kill him, it's fine (heal with physic if necessary). Maybe I should bring him to 3-4. Granted, Ranulf can do it too, but it would free Ranulf up for some other task. Haar doesn't want to face those things anyway.

ಠ_ಠ

how am i supposed to take you arguing against kyza seriously now

And I made it a bigger size and bolded it, too. I realize caps implies yelling over the internet but I was trying to get the focus of that paragraph onto that line. Plus I thought it looked better all caps instead of big and bold but lower case. Anyway, I don't exactly consider it mini-modding since you didn't say anything about it being against the rules, just that there's no need to go and do what I did.

That's a fair reason. As you had mentioned that you were pissed off, I assumed you were quite upset over the whole ordeal and interpreted your bold caps as I did. My mistake.

As for the resource thing, I don't actually have a list for the other resources. There are good points for giving most items to multiple units. Jill and Aran have excellent arguments for receiving a robe in part 1. You have two, but one doesn't appear until 1-8 anyway. Also, there are a few other units that can make a case for them, even if it's not as good a case. The draco can go to Nolan or Jill or even some of the other guys (even Zihark). The energy drop could get decent use on many units. Volug can OHKO the fire mages and take less damage. The drops and shields in part 3 could be used in many locations. There are advantages of each.

I do recall either participating or lurking through a number of those issues, so you do bring up a good point. Why are the Speedwings different, though?

I can't think of much that is advantageous of giving the wings to anyone other than Titania and Haar. Just minor things like "Boyd can double something (general or paladin) that Titania doubles without the wing and then you could get two units able to do certain things" but I don't think that is anywhere near as positive as letting an extra unit double warriors/halbs. There are plenty of units that can be pretty good against generals/paladins that we don't really need another. Almost every stat up item in the game can go to multiple units for either similar results or results that cancel each other out. unit A takes an extra hit from enemy a, unit B takes an extra hit from enemy b. enemies a and b are equally common. Stuff like that.

But the jump for Kyza is almost as great as Haar or Titania. Titania and Haar start to ORKO for a period of time, but Kyza doubles almost everything until 4-3 if he goes to 4-P. If he doesn't have the Wing, he doubles almost nothing. I just don't believe that completely throwing Kyza out as a candidate just because the other contenders are Haar and Titania is the correct thing to do.

I actually have a huge page typed up and saved to notepad in which I compare Kyza with a Speedwing to someone like Nephenee or Boyd in response to one of Queen_Elincia's posts, but this damn forum refuses to let me post it. I even tried splitting it into parts. `-` This is probably completely off-topic, though.

Anyway, it's not that I'm ignoring everyone who isn't best with a resource. It's like the 3-3 crown. I figure if Gatrie's in play he's getting it. But if he's not there are ideas like crowning wing!Haar when he gets to 24 spd, crowning wing!Titania when she hits 25 spd. Crowning Oscar to get him past his bad cap (and give him 2 more str). Crowning Shinon to get him 3 range. Crowning Soren to get him staves. If I say that Rhys can't get it, I'm not saying he can't get it because of Gatrie. I'm saying Rhys can't get it because you have to assume you aren't using a ton of units before the gains from crowning Rhys are better than crowning the alternatives (like Ilyana or something. Not sure who is even left). It's simply not reasonable.

I believe I made that argument for crowning Rhys once, actually.

I do see your point, but it doesn't really apply to the topic at hand.

Same with Kyza and the wing. If Kyza was #3 or even #4 in line for the wing then he'd at least be able to get it some of the time without an extreme cost. This is an efficiency tier list. If there is almost never a situation in which it is more efficient to wing Kyza than some other unit, then Kyza shouldn't be considered with the wing.

I don't see Kyza as any lower than 4th in line for the Speedwing, and I, personally, consider him 3rd. His jump in Speed is much more significant than any jump that someone like Boyd could offer.

Also, the intent is not to doubly punish anyone. The intent is to be efficient. The intent is to use whatever resources we have in a way that makes things easier to clear faster/safer/etc. If it turns out this means that certain bad units never get stat up items as a result, so be it. That's the thing about trying to make an efficiency tier list: certain units get screwed over by the need to be efficient.

Efficiency is so hazily-defined and general when it comes to Fire Emblem, and that is why people like GreatEclipse are able to argue the things that they do. Who is to say whether Kyza going from 4RKOing to 2RKOing is less of a boon than Haar or Titania going from 2RKOing to ORKOing? Or are we going to base it off of the actual gains from the Speedwings to be more objective? Well, if that's the case, then I could argue that Lyre gets +4 Speed from a Speedwing and thus, is better than Titania with it. Maybe I'm just missing the point here, and if I am, I would love to have someone explain how things work to me, because I don't see it.

Also, there is no reason to not stick every unit on the list. You could perhaps argue some of them for the bottom because they never get to do anything, but removing them from the list entirely wouldn't be necessary.

I worded it incorrectly, but you know what I mean.

Keep reposting the exact some thing, maybe it will magically force Kyza into 3-4 even though he normally isn't!!

EDIT: damn, troll ruined.

Aw, I thought this was originally directed at me until I saw Jackal's post. Now I just feel left out, Mekkah. Aim some wit at me, too!

[Anouleth]

But the jump for Kyza is almost as great as Haar or Titania. Titania and Haar start to ORKO for a period of time, but Kyza doubles almost everything until 4-3 if he goes to 4-P. If he doesn't have the Wing, he doubles almost nothing. I just don't believe that completely throwing Kyza out as a candidate just because the other contenders are Haar and Titania is the correct thing to do.

I actually have a huge page typed up and saved to notepad in which I compare Kyza with a Speedwing to someone like Nephenee or Boyd in response to one of Queen_Elincia's posts, but this damn forum refuses to let me post it. I even tried splitting it into parts. `-` This is probably completely off-topic, though.

Well, Kyza is only around from 3-4 and 3-7 onwards. Titania gets 3-2, 3-3, and 3-5 to make use of the Speedwing while the team that gives it to Kyza is not seeing anything. In addition, Kyza has no 1-2 range and limited player phase due to needing to eat Grass.

I think that Kyza is probably 3rd in line, it's just that he's sooooo far behind #1 and #2.

It depends on a lot of factors, really. If Titania fails to proc speed and you're worried that she'll be speed-screwed, then giving her the Speedwing is probably not the best thing to do assuming you're using Kyza as well. She'd be getting a few chapters of doubling Sages and Generals against Kyza doubling most things for the rest of the game. But again, it depends on how paranoid you are about RNG-screwage.

[_____]

Considering how there are two Speedwings available to these 3 contenders, I actually don't consider it as damaging as, say, Aran taking the Robe from Jill and whomever is in 3rd place for it, but then again, that may just be me.

[grandjackal]

I think it's a bit more complex than that. The difference is mainly between the DB Robe "Who wants to take another round?" because nearly every durable unit on the team benefits just about equally for it.

The difference between the wing on Haar/Ti and Kyza is "Ok, do I want one of these guys to ORKO, or do I want Kyza to 2RKO?".

The answer is a lot more obvious. Unless you can show that one of them doesn't even need a wing and thus Kyza has access to the second one...

[RNG Princess]

Why can't the Dawn brigade keep the speedwing? Wouldn't they need it more?

So its debated a huge loss if Kyza keeps a speedwing. Would it be considered a loss buying Data-transfered Astrid a killer bow?

[Interceptor]

I'd like to weigh in briefly on this Speedwing issue. Without going into a tl;dr, here are a couple of important points.

Kyza is not #3 for the Speedwing. I'd give the nod to Ike for that distinction. Before folks here bite their keyboards in twain, consider this: while Ike's SPD base is very good, it's borderline, and quickly becomes insufficient against Halbs, Warriors, and Snipers. He has a 65% chance each level to get bupkis for SPD. Considering that in addition to the aforementioned enemies, that Ike also has SPD challenges in Part 4 (Generals with 26 AS, what the christ), not to mention that he needs 34 AS for a ORKO on the BK (look at his average stats: it's tight), it's entirely possible that Ike needs a Wing to maintain his offense. This isn't like a STR-screwed Nephenee, where we can just drop her for someone else, this is Ike: he's one of your best characters, and even has unique utility in 4-E-4 for turn counts.

Secondly, the individual benefit gleaned from a Speedwing is nice, but it has nothing compared to the benefit gleaned for the army. Even if a Wing made someone twice as effective, that doesn't mean that they are tiegame with a unit that's also made twice as effective: improvement relative to the army is important. Base Titania is so much better than base Kyza that the overall benefit that you get for efficient completion with her Wing is not even on the same planet as with his. Note that they are not even CLOSE: this is not a situation like Mia vs. Nephenee, where both of them want Adept but Neph is only a bit worse than Mia with the thing. This is a situation where one character is so much more awesome than the other one with a resource that Kyza needs a telescope just to see the galaxy that Titania exists in.

I guess I failed the tl;dr requirement.

EDIT: @Queen_Elincia

Not many good Speedwing candidates in the Dawn Brigade. Who were you thinking of that would be superior for overall completion if given one?

About Astrid, I'd give her a Killer Bow basically for free. Never mind transfer Astrid, I'd give it to base Astrid. They are cheap in the overall scheme of things. The problem is, Shinon wants the one from Part 2, so she may not be able to get a bow until 3-11.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Interceptor

[Anouleth]

I wouldn't call that tl;dr by a long shot.

Really, now I feel bad about bringing up the Speedwing in the first place.

[RNG Princess]

I was thinking of Nolan since he's a decent tank but can get speed screwed pretty easily but I easily forgot about Volug so I guess it wouldn't be necessary.

I'm in 2-3 and Astrid(T) has a 27-30% chance to land a critical using a killer bow but I'm not sure if I should let her use it.

[grandjackal]

I was thinking of Nolan since he's a decent tank but can get speed screwed pretty easily but-

Not really an issue for DB part 3 performance. Most of the enemies are Laguz, and you can just slap Beastfoe on him. Now he doesn't even need to worry if he's doubled or not, because he's never gonna eat a second attack thanks to OHKOing laguz with his +5Def offering Tarvos.

I'm not even sure what good it would do outside of perhaps letting Aran avoid getting doubled by a couple more cats, or helping Sothe in part 4. I'd much rather give it to Titania or Haar so they can just rape part 3. No one in the DB comes close to that sort of performance in their part 3 in comparison after a wing, and the one guy who does only needs Beastfoe.

[Florete]

I wonder...does anyone think it would be a good idea to put some of these accepted ideas in the first post? Such as Haar and Titania being prime candidates for Speedwings and how far above the next they are and why, and more stuff like that. Of course, we'd need a note that it can be argued if you can come up with a reason for it to possibly be wrong, but it would at least help to explain some of the placements before we have to explain everything for a fifteenth time.

[Narga_Rocks]

GJ, I think the point with 3rd for 2 items is "what if you aren't using one of Haar/Titania", since you aren't always using the best x units. I'm not sure what to say to that, though, considering the resulting argument (if I say "then use the best x units) is that everyone who never has a free chapter or is optimal would then have to be worse than anyone that does have that. However, a counter is "this is an efficiency tier list, thus the rest of the team should be efficient for whatever unit is being argued". As in, if you have a team of x units, then x - 1 of them should be the best you can deploy for each given chapter (best not including the unit being argued) and the xth unit is the one being argued. In this set-up, Oliver does not need to be < Fiona/Meg/Astrid because being "efficient" doesn't necessarily mean that Oliver is still used but it still means Kyza can't touch that wing. It's not possible to compare various teams in part 1 to determine the "best team" and the best "distribution" of resources. However, Haar and Titania are pretty obviously included in "best team" and their wings under "best distribution of resources".

I think the game should have done something different with the masteries for laguz. They'd need to adjust some levels like Ulki/Janaff/Ranulf, but level 25 to use Satori Signs may have been better. Well, Ulki/Janaff need level 30 just to get the capacity for it, so I guess the only troublemakers would have been Ranulf and Skrimir (though being part 4 by then I don't see a big issue though with Skrimir being able to get his mastery instantly).

Anyway, Kyza/Lethe/Lyre are all hurt pretty badly by taking forever to get their masteries. And they can't be given forges to at least get some chance of KOing. Also none of them are likely to reach 3HKO with doubling so even Adept doesn't help them at all.

Mordy can at least ORKO a bunch of things with resolve to give him doubling (which lets him build strike wexp for when he needs the +5 mt to continue). Volug has part 1 and part 3 to be good and if he gets SS for part 4 then you could even argue Adept for him to KO stuff. And they weren't nice to them with luck, either. Ulki has 45 cev at base. Janaff has 30. Ranulf has 23 (or 24 or something). Kyza has 14. Lyre has 16. Mordy has 15 but he has a ton of def. Lethe has 18 so at least that's something. Too bad she's level 21 -> 42.

Anyway, I'm not certain but Kyza may actually be decent for 3-4 which would keep him out of bottom, certainly. It may even be enough for Kyza > Oliver. If anyone who has recently played would like to comment on Kyza's potential performance in 3-4...

As for wings, Boyd starts with 22 str. That's 38 with a forge. 39 with the support he should have by 3-4. 40 if you give him Mist, I suppose. Let's give him level 12 since that's 4 per chapter. 19.8 spd is almost always going to be 20. 24.6 str is either 24 or 25. Meaning 35 mt with a killer and 41 mt with any C support. Possibly 36 or even 37 (B with fire/water/dark) with a killer and 42 or 43 with a forge. Boyd can already 2RKO everything but Generals. He 2 hits everything but generals. Even rounding down his str and giving him a B with wind/earth/light/heaven/thunder instead of fire/water/dark and he still has 41 mt. He 3HKOs the boss. He 3HKOs all the generals.

Wing to 22 spd? No longer doubled by swordmasters. Now ORKOs all the mages except 19 spd guys (18 or less are 6 of 8 sages). Doubles all the generals. 4HKOs all but one General if he uses the killer axe. In fact, if you get him a favourable B support or simply round up his str (at least 50% of the time he'll have 25 or more) and he's pulling 36 mt with a killer. This means, by the way, that Boyd goes from 3 rounding with a forge or 4 rounding with a killer (chance at 2 rounding) to guaranteed 2 rounding all of the generals and he can even give you a nice ORKO on the generals a fair amount of the time. Even more often if he happens to be adjacent to Oscar or Rolf (are there any Generals on the lower level?).

Let's look at Kyza. 26 speed lets him double everything not a swordmaster. The gain? Well, he already ORKOd the mages that don't have 19 speed. Those guys happen to have elfire, so maybe the boost isn't all that helpful on them. Almost no change against sages. More damage to Kyza. Better to deal with them with other units. Changes with warriors from a 3 or 4 HKO to a 2 round (depends on which warrior). changes a 4 round to a 2 round against all the halbs. No change on swordmasters. Changes a borderline 3 or 4 HKO into a 2 round against snipers. Changes a 7 to 9 HKO on Generals into a 4 or 5 round. 11 HKO on boss becomes a 6 round.

Okay, so lets say you have to choose between Boyd and Kyza. If you choose Boyd and give him a wing, you get someone that 2RKOs everything except ORKOs sages and can randomly blick a general or two for you. In fact, round up his str and give him the right B support and he can even pull 37 mt with a killer and 2HKO 5 of 7 warriors (allowing you to go for the throat without risking a kill). Otherwise, if he is going to combine with a unit like Neph then he can still pull out that killer with 36 or 35 mt and do enough damage to allow her to ORKO if he doesn't crit. He can pull the same trick with Neph against Halbs. He either KOs or leaves it in range for her to KO. Or if you need a 2 round on his own Boyd just pulls out his trusty forge. Oh, and 36 mt will also get you a 2HKO on snipers, so he has a good chance of being able to reliably 2RKO snipers while getting a nice crit rate. Even the dragonmasters that Kyza 5HKOs (3 round if doubling) are dealt with handily by Boyd. The 18 speed Dragonmaster is doubled by the wing!Boyd and ORKOd by the forge (only 41 mt needed). The other one isn't doubled, but Boyd still 2HKOs with 42 mt. Compared to Kyza's 3 round.

Now, Kyza can improve on halbs, warriors, and snipers. But Boyd was already 2RKOing them. Kyza needed a wing just to reach his level on them. Boyd improved against Generals, Sages, Dragonmasters, Swordmasters (no longer doubled). And Boyd actually 2HKOs the swordies. Kyza is 3RKOing them. Boyd is matching everything Kyza can do and improving on it against the toughest dude's on the map (generals and dragonmasters). He's even doing better on the halbs/warriors/snipers depending on who is backing him up. If Neph can KO something that either Kyza or Boyd attacks, but Boyd may randomly blick it to allow Neph to move further forward, that's a win for Boyd.

Also, hit: Kyza has between 134 and 154 hit. Boyd at level 12 has 21.8 skill and 14.6 luck. So his base hit is anywhere from 56 to 59, with 58 probably being most likely. You can make Boyd about as accurate as you want. Axes aren't all that expensive and I'm not asking for crit on them. 16 mt 100 hit is much cheaper than Mia's forge and Boyd doesn't even double most of the enemies I'd be asking you to use it on. 148 to 168 hit. Basically, a difference of 14 hit. And Boyd doesn't need to hit twice to 2RKO. Boyd needs one hit, and with enemies hovering around 50 avo will usually have 100% hit. They need to be 2 steps above him in bio for him to even have a chance at missing. And that's like 148 hit to 52 avo when he's at worst and they are neutral. 96 with true hit is way over 99% (I think). Kyza at worst has 134 hit against 52 avo. 82 hit. With true it's not horrible, but he does need to hit twice to match the damage that Boyd is doing. In other words, Boyd is much more reliable at 2 rounding than Kyza is.

Hence, at least in 3-4, Boyd seems to be a better user of the wing. Sure, you could argue Kyza's move and lesser move penalties. But Boyd can actually attack on player phase more often. Kyza is grassing when Boyd is weakening/killing stuff. Also they match move for at least the first two turns. And Boyd is easier to pick up/shove. Now, I realize it's obvious that Boyd is better than Kyza. I'm not proving that. I'm arguing that Titania and Haar aren't the only units that are better users of the wing than Kyza. I could move on to other chapters if you like, I suppose. Like some of the chapters like 3-5 where the wing allows Boyd to ORKO a ton of paladins (provided he can reach 21 AS naturally) and the wing lets Kyza, um, run away faster? I don't remember quite what the beast laguz were allegedly doing while everyone else was contributing. Even 20 + 2 spd lets him at least ORKO some of the pallies, as well as 3 mages and doubling some generals. Admittedly, Boyd would like level 14 for this chapter and that's 6 levels in 5 chapters. And 20.7 is more likely to round down than 19.8 was. There are a lot of Generals in 3-8, though, many of which have 19 spd and 21 + 2 spd shouldn't be difficult by then. 23 speed, however, is 11 levels in 7 chapters. Blade/Lance/Bow paladins in 3-10 that have 20 AS. 22 speed is 8 or 9 levels in 8 chapters. To get 24 speed without a wing that's promotion. Also 20 AS dragonmasters that Boyd now ORKOs (a feat matched by, what, Haar and promoted Titania and sword users wielding wyrmslayers?). Even the 19 AS Axe Paladins my not be doubled by a wingless Boyd. 23 speed is needed, and he needs 11 levels in 8 chapters to pull that one off. And guess what? If he does happen to achieve that, then the wing gets him up to 25 speed and he'll now double 4 halbs and 1 warrior and the snipers.

Now, come 3-11 there's a wing from 3-9 and I've never figured out what to do with it. So many things can happen during the game that there is no real way of determining what to go and do with the thing. But since Boyd could have it, the difference between giving him an early wing compared to that wing after 3-11 begins is tough to determine. Maybe he can have an extra level and maybe not. As such, there isn't much point in talking about what either him or Kyza is doing with a wing beyond 3-10.

Now, that's Boyd. What about other dudes? Well, I don't feel like it. Boyd + Ike pushes Kyza to 5th. Ike, of course, can now have 25 spd. Guaranteed to be taking out halbs and warriors in 3-2 and 3-3. With a 35% growth, this isn't particularly reliable otherwise. Also, 3-5, 25 AS isn't reliable without a wing. The 26 AS for 3-10 probably is reliable enough, though. Then comes part 4 with all those fast warriors. If you don't get a little lucky in Ike's levels along the way and get good timing with his exp gains for bexp when he caps str and skl, he's probably going to have trouble being epic in part 4, too, though again the 3-9 wing can help with that a bit.