OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

I can see Lucia moving there, Geoff, Mak and Rofl all have doubling issues and then you have to consider her better affinity.

Any reason why Boyd > Mordecai? Neither double, but the latter has a better affinity, better mov and better durability. The only thing that's against him is gauge, yet Ranulf is above Boyd too. I'm not saying Mordy > Ranulf though.

[Vykan12]

Why is Lucia > Volke? Her win in 2-2 alone doesn't compensate for being beaten soundly everywhere else.

--/20/1 Lucia (C Tanith): 44 hp, 23 str, 36 crit, 32 AS, 18 def, 21 res, 120 avo, 16% astra

base lvl Volke: 52 hp, 30 str, 43 crit, 35 AS, 26 def, 22 res, 109 avo, 18% lethality

He wins significantly in every possible stat except avo. It's also worth noting the baselard/peshkatz have virtually 0 competition (lolSothe), which cannot be said for Lucia.

[grandjackal]

Any reason why Boyd > Mordecai? Neither double, but the latter has a better affinity, better mov and better durability. The only thing that's against him is gauge, yet Ranulf is above Boyd too. I'm not saying Mordy > Ranulf though.

Have fun with that. I know I did.

Why is Lucia > Volke? Her win in 2-2 alone doesn't compensate for being beaten soundly everywhere else.

--/20/1 Lucia (C Tanith): 44 hp, 23 str, 36 crit, 32 AS, 18 def, 21 res, 120 avo, 16% astra

base lvl Volke: 52 hp, 30 str, 43 crit, 35 AS, 26 def, 22 res, 109 avo, 18% lethality

He wins significantly in every possible stat except avo. It's also worth noting the baselard/peshkatz have virtually 0 competition (lolSothe), which cannot be said for Lucia.

Was just gonna bring this up x.x Basically, have her and Volke climb up, him above her.

You can let Sothe die in part 4, can't you?

Also, uhhh...Lucia's got other realistic options than Tanith ya know. Calill, Tauroneo and Elincia are a couple to name.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Zkirsche]

You can let Sothe die in part 4, can't you?

Only in 4-E, not 4-P or 4-3.

[grandjackal]

Only in 4-E, not 4-P or 4-3.

Just another reason to hate Sothe's guts no matter how cute he is

[Zkirsche]

Also, uhhh...Lucia's got other realistic options than Tanith ya know. Calill, Tauroneo and Elincia are a couple to name.

Tanith is Earth x Earth. He was being generous.

[Vykan12]

Basically, have her and Volke climb up, him above her.

I was trying to question Lucia moving up, not have both of them move up.

I can see her moving up to mid (Rolf is there after all), though not > Geoffrey. Being the best unit in 2 chapters > being arguably the best in 1. Granted, Lucia is obviously better afterwards, but I thought we were assuming we'd drop a unit after their usefulness was outlived, so it wouldn't matter.

[Zkirsche]

I can see her moving up to mid (Rolf is there after all), though not > Geoffrey. Being the best unit in 2 chapters > being arguably the best in 1. Granted, Lucia is obviously better afterwards, but I thought we were assuming we'd drop a unit after their usefulness was outlived, so it wouldn't matter.

She's arguably better than Kieran, however.

Unless we move Kieran below Geoff.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Vykan12]

She's arguably better than Kieran, however.

That's assuming both were actively used throughout the game, which isn't the assumption this list makes. Kieran is basically Geoffrey's equal in 2-3 and 3-9 so either both of them or none of them should be above her.

[Narga_Rocks]

That's assuming both were actively used throughout the game, which isn't the assumption this list makes. Kieran is basically Geoffrey's equal in 2-3 and 3-9 so either both of them or none of them should be above her.

But if Kieran isn't used after 3-9, then he is pretty clearly under Geoffrey, I thought. So it was Kieran's potential to be somewhat useful after 3-9 that bumped him above Geoffrey. At the same time, that means Lucia's better endgame could push her above Kieran. But Geoffrey's 2 chapters of being arguably the best is > Lucia's one chapter of being arguably the best + Endgame being okay.

Having people not have to be actively used throughout the game is something I'm in favor of for the tier list, but it kinda seems like a rock paper scissors thing in this case.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

For Boyd vs. Mordecai, Boyd has more ways to work around his doubling issues. Killer Axe+ bond supports, Hammer, Brave Axe, etc. Plus, Boyd's 45% speed growth means he might double sometime if we toss him a Speedwing, Mordecai's just hopeless. There's Resolve, but that's highly contested and Boyd's a pretty good candidate for it himself.

Volke has many of the same issues as Stefan, mainly that his only time available(outside 4-5) is on a map where he's competing with every unit in the game for 10 slots. That being said, he's somewhat comparable to Giffca/Caineghis anyway, so perhaps he could move up to at least above Makalov, whose pretty badly overrated IMO.

Using units for maximum efficiency doesn't mean we don't consider all their chapters, Lucia/Volke being better than Geoffrey come 4-E still is an advantage. It's just that assigning Geoffrey a negative value for these chapters(especially if we're saying these -'s are equal to his former +'s, one of kirsche's fuzzy maths), is somewhat silly since we can just bench him.

I still think Kieran's pre Part 4 win outweighs Lucia's 4-E win but I guess that's a judgment call.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

But if Kieran isn't used after 3-9, then he is pretty clearly under Geoffrey, I thought.

That would be another change for the list, yes.

So it was Kieran's potential to be somewhat useful after 3-9 that bumped him above Geoffrey.

Somewhat useful where though? It’s certainly not in part 3 or 4-E where unit slots are very competitive. If he goes Micaiah route he only has 4-P, and he’s going to be more of a hindrance than a help on Ike’s route for fairly obvious reasons. That leaves Tibarn route where his high move + durability make him sorta kinda maybe useful, though that really depends on how high a level he can get by then.

But Geoffrey's 2 chapters of being arguably the best is > Lucia's one chapter of being arguably the best + Endgame being okay.

If Lucia is average at endgame, then she isn’t really getting any credit for it (think of average as giving her a neutral score).

Using units for maximum efficiency doesn't mean we don't consider all their chapters, Lucia/Volke being better than Geoffrey come 4-E still is an advantage. It's just that assigning Geoffrey a negative value for these chapters(especially if we're saying these -'s are equal to his former +'s, one of kirsche's fuzzy maths), is somewhat silly since we can just bench him.

K, so then why is Edward > Stefan?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

I would say Edward> Stefan, because his chapters of usefulness (1-P to 1-5) outweigh Stefan having a mediocre at best Endgame. Plus, even if we're not actively using Edward, he can still provide some minor utility, 1-6 you can field all units anyway, he can support someone to give a Def boost, he can block a gap in 3-13 etc. I find Edward's "negative utility" a little overrated frankly, but that's a very long discussion.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

That seems like a double standard to me. We drop Edward when he quits being useful while not doing the same for Geoffrey.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, vykan, if I read it right we seem to agree that Geoffrey > Lucia. If we drop Kieran < Geoffrey then I can leave Lucia < Kieran because then Kieran doesn't have to exist after 3-9. And I wasn't exactly saying that I agree that Kieran is somewhat useful after 3-9, just that I thought that was the reason other people used for putting him above Geoffrey in the tier list. ie: Kieran's post 3-9 existence > Geoffrey's post 3-9 existance by enough that it overrides the amount by which Geoffrey > Kieran in 3-9 and earlier. Which I basically disagree with anyway because there are better people for the slots in 3-11 and 3-E and he doesn't exactly have the kind of endgame to cause me to raise him when he is a lower level than what I have. At least Calill and Marcia have a better endgame than a fair number of those people that have a higher level. (Obviously iff we can get them to a reasonable level).

So again, if I read you right, you are saying Geoffrey > Kieran > Lucia. I don't have a problem with that, but correct me if I am reading you wrong.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I think it's time I made a judgement call on how often a unit is assumed to be used.

When comparing two units, I like to assume we look at their performance over the entire game. For a character like Kieran, it's quite obvious that the main part of him being a Mid/Low Mid character is his performance in 2-3 and 3-9. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be deployed at all past 3-9. The reasoning for him being > Geoffrey is because they are very similar for those two chapters yet Kieran will very likely be better when they both meet up again. You can't really give him negative utility for being deployed in 3-11 and 3-E for a few reasons.

1) This isn't a DB vs. GM debate. Those are the most often times we use the deployment slots option, because someone like Jill is still around yet on a team where she can quite easily be deployed without bumping someone else out, like Oscar would. Geoffrey simply doesn't exist. In a case like this, I generally assume existing > not existing.

2) Kieran doesn't completely suck. It's a bit of a longshot to say he's good, but he definitely isn't so bad he'll drag the team down.

Therefore, the worst I can see Kieran being for 3-11 and 3-E is neutral. However, by the time he meets up with Geoffrey again, he'll very likely be better.

I hope I didn't leave any holes or contradictions in there.

[Zkirsche]

For Boyd vs. Mordecai, Boyd has more ways to work around his doubling issues. Killer Axe+ bond supports, Hammer, Brave Axe, etc. Plus, Boyd's 45% speed growth means he might double sometime if we toss him a Speedwing, Mordecai's just hopeless. There's Resolve, but that's highly contested and Boyd's a pretty good candidate for it himself.

Mordy's probably the best candidate with resolve, however. He goes from not killing to killing. Mordy can solo maps with resolve, Boyd can't due to durability issues. The only other one I can forsee being better than Mordy with resolve is Haar.

Mordy can also make use of a speedwing, +4 speed is good.

[Progenitus]

For Boyd vs. Mordecai, Boyd has more ways to work around his doubling issues. Killer Axe+ bond supports, Hammer, Brave Axe, etc. Plus, Boyd's 45% speed growth means he might double sometime if we toss him a Speedwing, Mordecai's just hopeless. There's Resolve, but that's highly contested and Boyd's a pretty good candidate for it himself.

The difference between Mordy and Boyd is that Mordy takes 0 damage from physical enemies while Boyd's getting 3-4HKO'd.

One speedwing isn't going to let Boyd double either. He has 18 base spd, which is LESS than the halbs and warriors had in 3-P. By 4-1 the enemies reached 24-25 spd, and Boyd only has ~25 spd at 20/20/1. Just one speedwing lets him double, like generals/sages, and even then that's pretty borderline (I'll need to double check stats).

killer axe, rofl. Yes cause a 25% chance to crit is awesome (yes, only 25, since enemies have a ton of lck in this game), except now his att sucks and if he doesn't crit, he may as well not have even attacked in the first place.

Brave axe/hammer/etc. are all axes that my other axe users could use, and the hammer only works on generals anyway.

So just because Boyd has more options doesn't mean they actually do anything significant.

Resolve on the other hand makes mordy go from "doubles nothing" to "doubles everything except maybe SMs" and his durability goes from "lolinvincible" to "lolinvincible unless there's multiple magic users nearby". Doubling even lets him get strike rank at twice the rate he'd normally get it, so that's just another incentive to put it on him.

When comparing two units, I like to assume we look at their performance over the entire game.

The problem is this method artificially deflates the usefulness of certain units like Sothe (who is complete garbage in part 4). I would explain, but I'd probably mess up and get everyone confused, but Paperblade can explain it better than me, so I'm just going to wait until he posts.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think it's time I made a judgement call on how often a unit is assumed to be used.

When comparing two units, I like to assume we look at their performance over the entire game. For a character like Kieran, it's quite obvious that the main part of him being a Mid/Low Mid character is his performance in 2-3 and 3-9. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be deployed at all past 3-9. The reasoning for him being > Geoffrey is because they are very similar for those two chapters yet Kieran will very likely be better when they both meet up again. You can't really give him negative utility for being deployed in 3-11 and 3-E for a few reasons.

1) This isn't a DB vs. GM debate. Those are the most often times we use the deployment slots option, because someone like Jill is still around yet on a team where she can quite easily be deployed without bumping someone else out, like Oscar would. Geoffrey simply doesn't exist. In a case like this, I generally assume existing > not existing.

2) Kieran doesn't completely suck. It's a bit of a longshot to say he's good, but he definitely isn't so bad he'll drag the team down.

Therefore, the worst I can see Kieran being for 3-11 and 3-E is neutral. However, by the time he meets up with Geoffrey again, he'll very likely be better.

I hope I didn't leave any holes or contradictions in there.

But then we are back to rock paper scissors with Lucia and Geoffrey and Kieran. Unless you are thinking that Kieran's part 4 is better than Lucia's? Others have shown that Kieran v. Lucia is debateable for part 4 pre-endgame, and Lucia is better than Kieran in endgame. Of course, if Lucia > Geoffrey then there isn't a r.p.s. problem.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

@Narga: Geoffrey > Kieran > Volke > Lucia IMO.

[Progenitus]

Just wanted to go back on some old Danved vs Lethe thing.

This is true in 2-3, but 2-3 consists of mostly not killing. Then in 3-9, Danved is less affected by thickets and ledges. Lethe is a cat, and cats lose to almost anything by default unless they're Ranulf...imo.

Giving Danved two levels for 2-3 + 3-9, and Lethe one level for part 2, plus two levels for part 3 until 3-11 (3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10...probably being generous but w/e), and here's what we're looking at.

--/11 Danved

40.5 hp, 17.8 str, 23.6 skl, 21.9 spd, 19.2 luk, 15.9 def, 12.5 res

Steel Greatlance: 31.8 atk, 136.4 hit, 16.8 crt

Killer Lance: 26.8 atk, 146.4 hit, 36.8 crt

24 Lethe

53.6 hp, 20.2 str, 27.8 skl, 27 spd, 19.4 luk, 20.4 def, 21.2 res

Stupid Cat Claw: 28.2 atk, infinite hit, 13.9 crt

Go ahead and compare that to losing meter, I'm too lazy.

3 levels for Lethe by 3-11 IS pretty generous. She starts at level 21, which means she gains CEXP like a 20/20/2 unit. That's technically 5 levels higher than Titania, who's getting <10 exp a kill, which means Lethe is getting like 3 exp a kill. She's not likely to get significant exp in part 2 as well, since 2-2 has mostly unpromoted enemies, and 2-E still has like level 6 tier 2 (which gives her 1 exp a kill).

2 levels for Danved, on the other hand, is somewhat low. We're probably throwing paragon on him in 3-9. I'd put Marcia at ~20/11 for 3-11, and Danved starts 4 levels higher than her with only ~1.5 less chapters of availability.

Not to mention the whole "who's sucking and not". Danved is at least average in CRK chapters, since they're so undermanned everyone is lending a helping hand (except Astrid, who just sucks), especially in 3-9 where the paladins can't climb up the ledges and Marcia can't handle the top ledge by herself. Lethe is average in part 2, but then sucksmassively in 3-4 to 3-10 because she's SLIGHTLY better than Lyre. +4 HP, +2 str, +1 spd, +2 def, but is 4 levels higher and has a crappier affinity, and growths is debatable (Lethe has +35 HP, +15 def. Lyre has +20 spd). Danved doesn't even have to lift a finger and he'd be winning the comparison because he wasn't sucking so badly for 4 chapters.

@Narga: Geoffrey > Kieran > Volke > Lucia IMO.

Mostly agreed. well, I'd say Geoffrey/Kieran/Volke are fairly debatable (though I'd agree with your order anyway), but they're all certainly better than Lucia.

[Zkirsche]

@Narga: Geoffrey > Kieran > Volke > Lucia IMO.

Where's the logic behind Geoff > Kieran? I thought they were about the same in 2-3, 2-E and 3-9 (Though Geoff has a small advantage I suppose) but Kieran was superier to Geoff from there on out.

[Yojinbo]

So Rage Fox, even if you disagree with me about Tanith > Marcia you still haven't responded to my arguments on why Tauroneo > Marcia and why he should be a lot higher. He is not a worse character than Heather, Marcia, Brom or even Jill.

I'm just going to argue why Tauroneo should be at least as high as Jill (which makes him automatically better than all the other units listed).

I think not much needs to be said about his performance in pt1...his two chapters are extremely difficult without him and I think it's actually unrealstic to beat 1-6-2 without him. Jill has two more chapters but she's pretty bad and has many restrictions...she won't double and with lvl14 she won't gain too many lvll ups to fix her mediocre stats. She either needs a Hand Axe or a Forge to be any useful. One of her biggest plusses - her mobility - is reduced in 1-7 and 1-E since they're indoor maps and she's not available in 1-8. Her performances in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are subpar and average at best in 1-7 and 1-E.

Taroneo in pt1 is god - he can't be killed realistically and he can block the Cavaliers by the bridge in 1-6-2, who would buttrape Micaiah, Laura, Leo, Meg and Edward otherwise and he is also by far the best unit in 1-6-1.

Tauroneo in pt1 > Jill in pt1.

In part 3, Jill has one more chapter than Tauroneo. She's actually quite good in 3-6 as she can fly over the water and other obstacles to hit + run against untransformed Laguz, which is not only useful but will also give her some level ups she didn't get in pt1. It's clearly a plus for her and we can safely assume her to be promoted in 3-12. I'm going to be generous and say she'll be at 20/3 in 3-12 (which means she got 9 level ups in 5 chapters).

So in 3-12 their stats look like that:

Jill 20/3

30HP, 16.6Str, 16.6Skl, 20.55Spd, 18.2Lck, 17.45Def;

Tauroneo -/14

38HP, 24Str, 22Skl, 20Spd, 18Lck, 21Def;

Tauroneo has a massive durability lead (+8HP, +4Def, a lot more res) and hits harder and more reliable (+8Str, +6Skl). Again Jill can hit + run but she won't kill a lot as she can't afford to fly right down into the mess and space is limited everywhere else. Jills flying utility is pretty good of course but she can't hit somebody in the valley and retreat to higher ground ... so she can't hit much more than Tauroneo can and her stats are shaky (even though 20/3 is pretty good for her). Tauroneo hits harder, more reliable and has the same AS as her. He simply beats her in every stat and you can even have him climb down the ledges to block off enemies. He will not only kill as muchh as Jill but probably contribute as much as she does - not very much but he helps a lot more than Jill does, who basically just throws hand axes around for the purpose of gettong CExp

With Imbue he is pretty muc invincible as he gets +12 HP every turn at base level. Even if he fought with Imbue at base level he'd only take 7 damage from the strongest Warrior in 4-1 (even though he can't even take part at that chapter but just to Illustrate his usefulness) - not counting possible Mag increase, promo boni or supports.

3-13 is a nightmare without Tauroneo although Jill can def. help a lot here too. I'd say Jill is pretty good with Hand axes + Beastfoe or the Brave Axe but again Tauroneo is a lot more valuable than her as he is one of the only units, who can actually block Laguz off without standing above the ledge - he can face them in combat without having issues. Imbue + 21Def + support...that's a huge wall right there - perfect to deal with any Laguz.

Counting Jills relatively good performances in all 3 part 3 chapters and Taurneos good performance in 3-12 as well as his crucial appearance in 3-13 I'd say that in pt3 Jill = Tauroneo ...

Now in pt4 things change...assuming 5 more level ups for Jill from 3-12 and 3-13 (again, this is very generous) and 3 for Tauroneo they'll have the following stats:

Jill 20/8

32.5HP, 18.85Str, 18.85Skl, 24.45Spd, 21.8Lck, 19.55Def, 10.85Res

Tauroneo -/17

39.65HP, 25.2Str, 23.95Skl, 21.5Spd, 18.6Lck, 22.35Def, 16.5Res

Tauroneo still clearly wins durability (+7HP, +3Def, +5Res) and offense (+6Str, +5Skl). However with the Master Crown from 3-12 he can promote to tier 3 to receive the promo stat boosts...

Tauroneo -/17/1

43.65HP, 27.2Str, 25.95Skl, 23.5Spd, 18.6Lck, 24.34Def, 20.5Res

He will also have 16Mag, which means imbue heals 1/3 of his live right there and both of his defensive stats are higher than 20. He has a 26% chance to activate Luna. Furthermore he'll receive nice boosts from Tibarns authority since he's locked to his army...

How is Jill going to beat that? He beats her in every single stat and performs much better. The only enemy Jill might do better against are the SMs, since they can double Tauroneo if they have 27Spd (all of them do) but Jill also gets doubled by some of them and she is a lot less likely to kill or even hit them.

For endgame ... it's no comparision...if both got 5 level ups (Laguz give tons of CExp in 4-5 - ignoring the fact that Jill can't even really deal with them)...their stats will be like this:

Jill 20/13

35HP, 21.1Str, 21.1Skl, 25Spd, 24.8Lck, 21.3Def, 13.1Res

Tauroneo -/17/6

47.95HP, 29.4Str, 29.85Skl, 26.5Spd, 26.04Def, 23.5Res

Tauroneo wins every stat, has Imbue (~17HP gained every round) and a mastery skill. He is about as fast as her, more durable, hits harder and more reliable. His good defenses + Imbue make him a good choice against Dragons...

tl;dr Tauroneo is a lot bette than Jill in every chapter he's in and she only got 3 chapters more than him. Tauroneo is a lot better than Marcia and Jill isn't nearlly as good as you think...so move Tauroneo up and Jill down...seriously you undrrate Tauroneo. I didn't even include things like Tauroneo's support options (Tanith or Lucia for example) and how they improve his performance in Endgame.

[Zkirsche]

I had no objections to your post until I saw this:

Jill 20/13

35HP, 21.1Str, 21.1Skl, 25Spd, 24.8Lck, 21.3Def, 13.1Res

She's a tier 2 unit, she'll gain tonnes and tonnes of exp from her chapters. So let's say she's 20/1 . Then, you have to remember that since you gave Taur Imbue, we're going to give Jill something, namely a seraph robe and draco shield. She uses both very well:

Level 20/20/1 Jill, 'A' Volug: 49.5 HP, 27 Str, 27 AS, 127.5 Avo, 28 Def, 20 Res

Level xx/17/6 Taur, 'A' Pelleas: 47.5 HP, 31 Str, 26 AS, 95 Avo, 30 Def, 26.5 Res

I can't be bothhered to explain, but Taur still wins.

I agree that Taur should move up.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[soundecho]

wtf @ the notion of imbue = seraph robe and dracoshield