OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

Besides, isn't it obvious that Oliver is better than Pelleas? Pelleas basically needs to be trained up to do what Oliver's doing anyways. You'd think they'd switch places...

[Dat Nick]

Never mind that Pelleas STILL won't have the staff rank, and he needs to be 20/6 to tie Oliver in magic, 20/8 to beat him.

[Progenitus]

More stuff...

- Why is Rolf so high? He clearly sucks dick for like all of part 3 (he hits for awful damage and doesn't double), and he doesn't win part 4 by enough to be over guys like Volke and Stefan and Nasir. For that matter, those three plus Tormod should be middle. Volke/Stefan/Tormod are actually good (or at least comparable to most beorcs you'd be thinking of bringing along for 4-E) for several chapters, and Nasir is the reason why 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 goes by so smoothly. Guys like Muarim and Tauroneo are in middle for being good in several chapters, why not Volke/Stefan/Tormod/Nasir?

- Why are Cain/Giffca in middle? They should at least be upper mid. Even if they only exist in 4-E, they're hilariously good.

Edited June 29, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Vykan12]

I second Smash's propositions. There's a lot of "bad unit for a long time > good unit for a short time" that needs to be resolved.

[Narga_Rocks]

I’d prefer getting Ike to be able to do that alone, particularly in 4-4 since 1-2 range is very important there.

Nonono. I’m talking more about reaching 30-31 spd in 4-4. Titania, Haar, Boyd, etc easily fall short of that even if they managed to double consistently in part 3 at some point.

I know it was from two pages ago, but since I was sleeping and it was responding to me I figure I might as well.

How can Ike do this alone and live? I know paragon will let him grow faster, but since I'm assuming we are looking at no transfers he likely did not cap speed in Tier 2 and may not have capped def. I'm not even sure if he can double warriors at this point. Plus without that extra 23 avo he gets hit a fair bit and either needs to heal himself almost every turn or have mist/rhys heal him when you probably have other units in other areas that need healing.

(Edit: forgot about the 30-31 people. I suppose having that in 4-4 might help, but can't we paragon them a bit before 4-1? Besides, if we aren't taking them to endgame they are better used by just weakening something for someone who is going to endgame.)

Oh, to the person who said rhys isn't getting a physic till late, why aren't you having neph/brom/heather/haar take Elincia's physic staff after 2-E? She gets unequipped in 3-10 so in 3-11 anything but amiti that you left her with at the end of 2-E is now in your inventory and did absolutely nothing from 3-2 until 3-11. That's an extra mend staff and a physic staff. You have a couple of shots at disarming physic staff users, but since I'm assuming you aren't doing that there is a guy with a physic staff and a light tome in 3-10 to steal a physic from and one in 3-11. These two are practically giving it away. There are plenty of physic staves to let MistRhys use.

For giving a crown to Titania. Why are we doing that to her? Gatrie needs 5 levels to cap spd and starts 6 levels lower than titania. Titania needs 4 levels to get to 23 spd and then you can crown her (when she is already level 20, by the way) to get to 25 speed. If you don't, she has 23 or 24 speed after crowning and won't double warriors or Halberdiers as of 3-5 and snipers soon after. Way to use a crown, that. Gatrie can be crowned and then not have to level in order to double all the way until 3-11 and that's only like 1 22 speed warrior, and a few faster things in 3-E, but by then he can at least be --/15/3, or even 17/3 if you delayed crowning a bit. Titania will have less speed than a crowned gatrie unless you winged her, and has a lower speed growth so hitting 26 speed might take longer even if you winged + crowned her. I don't really see how needing a wing and a crown to do what Gatrie does with just a crown is even worth mentioning.

(edit: --/15/2 or 3 was what I meant all along, 15/1 happens in like 3-4 or 5)

Oh, to smash, I'd rather have Ike/Haar/Gatrie/Shinon/Mia than Ike/Haar/Gatrie/Titania/Shinon anyway. And saying that 3-4 only hurts paladins for half the map is kinda wrong. The laguz take care of a fair number of enemies you want Titania to go against before she gets there, there is the ledge area in the middle right anyway, and Paladins are left with around 5 enemies to attack and compete with the rest of your party for them. I suppose Titania can contribute to attacking one enemy on the left ledge, though, since she can canto out of the way after so someone else can also attack, but then lets say 6 enemies. Most of the enemies the GM's face are on the ledges at the top. In 3-7 she can't even get on the island that Zihark starts on. She again gets to meet like 7 enemies or something if she solos the top part, which would slow down the drive to the BK anyway. Then zihark's island she does nothing for and same with Micaiah's. It does hurt. Also Titania can't be air dropped next to the purge user in 3-10 to help Heather survive when she is stealing purge. Gatrie with provoke and a 1 range weapon while Heather has shade and a 1-2 range weapon means she doesn't even get attacked. To get titania over there she needs to get through the enemies, which might not happen in 1 turn even with Reyson if we want to get all 5 uses. In 3-8 she gets 1 more move than Gatrie and while canto is still an advantage, it is mitigated. In 3-11 she again can't be airdropped, though that might not be necessary and I'm pretty sure the pegs can't pick up gatrie anyway. In 3-E there are enough enemies that Gatrie being able to take anything is important over Titania being 4HKOd, or whatever she is.

As for Mia, Ike would like his support partner to actually be able to survive the swarms of enemies Ike goes against because otherwise his support partner needs to stand where s/he won't be attacked and so Ike can't go wherever he wants or he gets hit a bunch since he lost his support. This basically leaves Gatrie, Mia, Oscar, Shinon, and maybe Titania. Thing is, Gatrie is fine on his own, I'm not mentioning Haar in that list because he is a loner anyway. Oscar will never have Mia's offense, cause he can't double what she can, has bad crit even with a forge, and sucks with adept because he doesn't double and has 6% less activation even with only considering one hit. Heck, with Mia's affinity and faster leveling and better strength growth, she quickly catches up even if neither crits nor adepts, especially since she doubles stuff he doesn't. Shinon has a whopping 28 mt on enemy phase and ties Mia's wind edge production and crit rate when she gets 20 str and A Ike. But since she'll be using a steel blade or a crit she has lots more might and possibly a way better crit rate. And that isn't even bringing up that she easily 3HKO things shinon 4HKOs so she is better with adept, plus doubles more things and 100% ORKOs swordmasters and has a higher adept activation rate to begin with. So on enemy phase she kills way more than Shinon does, and only Gatrie competes in kill rate because no one else doubles. Shinon kills one thing on player phase, yay. Mia does too 70% of the time if she doesn't ORKO already. Mia stomps him so hard on enemy phase it should easily override the 30% difference on player phase. I'm not sure even if Titania can reach the level of invincibility that the rest of those people can reach with an Ike support, and even if she can she needs a speedwing and a crown to beat Mia's offence and still loses to Mia against swordmasters. And before you bring up that Ike will be doing the enemy phase work, everyone but Titania and a croned Gatrie is lower leveled than Ike. They aren't attacking him unless he has provoke and his partner has shade, but then neither can use that capacity for better stuff, so his buddy's offense does matter.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Yojinbo]

I'm not sure about Rolf but I think he benefits a lot from having 3 bond supports (Boyd, Oscar and Shinon). With all three of them within range, he gets +25 Crit and Dodge ... with an inherent crit +10 skill and a killer bow he gets 40 more crit ... that's 65 crit right there ... even if the enemies had 25 Lck he'd still have a 40% chance for a crit... and since he's only @ -/1 he gets somewhat more CExp than other characters and safe hits from 2 range are always good, since it gives many units a free kill, especially those who can't double. With an amazing str growth rate and a good chance to land crits with the killer bow/forges he can deal some nice damage without taking many resources. I'm not sure about his hit % but since bows are so accurate he may even be able to use gamble reasonably well, since his wind affinity gives +hit. If he supports somebody with fire affinity like Heather or Rhys he gets a decent hit boost and also +atk for more damage. 45% spd growth isn't bad although he won't double probably...but having good chances to crit a Helebardier/Warrior in the early GM chapters sound nice.

He doesn't really take anything away from the party ... a forged bow for additional crit...a support with Rhys/Heather ... gamble.

And he still has some use for a while. I think some bexp to make him catch up a little isn't out of the question either since he doesn't need anything else. Those are just estimates though ... I didn't bother going through any numbers...

[Progenitus]

Why are we not only fielding ALL of Boyd/Oscar/Shinon, but ALSO have them park themselves next to Rolf all the time? They already have their own supporters they have to follow. They don't want to tag along with Rolf too.

This pretty much kills your entire post, since you rely too much on rolf critting things.

Edited June 29, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Narga_Rocks]

I like Rolf a lot on EM and NM, but never bothered on HM. It just seems like too much work and using shinon and rolf doesn't seem like a good idea for looking at endgame, so to raise Rolf properly I'm losing out on Shinon. I hate shinon's and gatrie's personalities, but that's why I use Rolf and Brom on EM and NM where they are still inferior for a while (Brom forever) but it isn't as costly to raise them. On HM I don't care about character personalities.

Edit: Well, Gatrie's pesonality isn't so bad. I guess I don't hate his personality like I do Shinon's.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Yojinbo]

Why are we not only fielding ALL of Boyd/Oscar/Shinon, but ALSO have them park themselves next to Rolf all the time? They already have their own supporters they have to follow. They don't want to tag along with Rolf too.

This pretty much kills your entire post, since you rely too much on rolf critting things.

They need to be within 1-3 range to activate their supports. Since space is limited in almost all the GM chapters for anybody not named Haar, it's pretty safe to assume that Shinon and Boyd will naturally be close to Rolf, especially since they have similar movement...even Oscar can't really afford to ride any big distances away from the rest of the party and he has Canto. It's not actually that unrealistic to get 3 characters within 3 spots from Rolf, when 2 of them match in mov and the third has canto... there are like 20 possible spots to be in range for a support. So I don't think it hinders the army... and even when Oscar is away Rolf loses only 10 crit...

Edited June 29, 2009 by Yojinbo

[Interceptor]

Why are we not only fielding ALL of Boyd/Oscar/Shinon, but ALSO have them park themselves next to Rolf all the time? They already have their own supporters they have to follow. They don't want to tag along with Rolf too.

This is an exceedingly silly counter-argument. He is not asserting that Rolf has a posse of people following him around all the time, it's just a point that Rolf can make use of them when appropriate. Shinon is attacking at 2-range, and Oscar can Canto. Sometimes it's going to happen, and a non-negligible amount at that. Heck, Bonds are two-way, who is to say that Oscar or Shinon wouldn't want to hang out just for the bonus that they can get themselves? Boyd's mediocre enough, and the GMs have enough deployment slots, that sometimes he could be out there as well.

EDIT: Yojinbo, Bonds are adjacent-only. FYI.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

I chose to believe he meant that Oscar Shinon and Boyd aren't kept too far away from their support partners by doing this. I know I might be wrong, but I thought I'd try.

Oh, and I guess I could've included Heather in the list of people who will live with an Ike support, but she hits worst so often it is hard to send her into something for 3 turns in a row and her offence isn't good even after abusing her to 20 str for bolting, let alone without doing that. And she might never reach 3HKO'd so it is less safe than Mia anyway.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

If we're moving Rolf down, we should probably move Soren down as well. He's less durable than Rolf (2RKOd, instead of 3RKOd basically), doesn't double ever and thus often has issues even 2RKOing. He gets E staves after promotion, which is OK I guess, except once Rolf promotes he has +1 range and his growths actually make him a decent unit. Basically, he's nearly tied for one of the worst GM's. You can look at the Rolf vs. Soren debate for more details, but they're pretty close all in all.

We shouldn't really assume Heather has a support with anyone, since fielding her on some chapters is just a total waste of a slot.

Edited June 29, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Mekkah]

You can look at the Rolf vs. Soren debate for more details, but they're pretty close all in all.

I thought the Soren side was winning thoroughly there, and I don't believe in using biased debates for supposed-to-be unbiased tier lists for anything other than numbers.

[-Cynthia-]

I thought the Soren side was winning thoroughly there, and I don't believe in using biased debates for supposed-to-be unbiased tier lists for anything other than numbers.

I mainly meant in terms of exact numbers, since I don't really feel like copypasting.

[Florete]

What the hell happened to this topic while I slept.

Why you do you want to favor him though? He’s already good at what he’s assigned to do. We’re not so short on fighters that it’s crucial that every healer we deploy is competent in battle. It’s quite the opposite, actually. In a map like 4-E-4 for instance, it’s a good idea to just deploy your 1-2 range units so that all the spirits die on enemy phase (they don’t attack Oliver since they can’t damage him on a res tile). That might only be 5 units. 4-E-1 and 2 are also enemy phase heavy, so you just need a couple of broken attackers handling various areas of the map. Using more fighters can actually prove counter-productive in some cases since the enemy will target the weakest unit they can.

Now you keep insisting that Astrid is a great endgame unit for all the work you put into her. The thing is, all that babying easily outweighs whatever performance she has in 4-E. You lose more in the long run from developing her than you do replacing Elincia with Oliver, and by a longshot.

I know Pretty Boi Wolf had a similar response but I typed mine up before I read it :P

P.S. are you going to confirm your match-up in the FE9 tourney, RF?

At this point I think we've been looking at things differently, but I don't want to exchange another 3 page argument of opinions that I'll probably lose anyway, so I'll just move Oliver. In fact, I'll rearrange all of Low a bit and have everyone look at it from there.

Can someone give me a rundown of other stuff that needs to be looked into?

[Zkirsche]

Can someone give me a rundown of other stuff that needs to be looked into?

It appears that people want to move rofl down, and Cynthia with him ( I agree with cynthia here btw) but If we're moving Soren down, we should move Rhys down too as Rhys > Soren.

And I'm still questioning Mist's usefulness in part 3 and since it was proven that the physic stave is available, Rhys can heal from afar, meaning that he is that much better than her now. Basically, I'm askign for Mist to be moved down again.

[Florete]

It appears that people want to move rofl down, and Cynthia with him ( I agree with cynthia here btw) but If we're moving Soren down, we should move Rhys down too as Rhys > Soren.

If Soren is moving down and Rhys > him why should Rhys move down?

But I agree Soren and Rolf should probably go lower.

[Zkirsche]

If Soren is moving down and Rhys > him why should Rhys move down?

Sorry, I meant Soren > Rhys.

Any thoughts on dropping Mist? I was against the gap they had before and it's only increasing.

[Yojinbo]

1.) Why is Lyre > Fiona?

2.) Heather needs to drop big time

3.) Sigrun could be little higher I think

[Florete]

1.) Why is Lyre > Fiona?

Paperblade had a big post about why Fiona is clearly the worst character on the game, and I believe there was a debate on the two and Lyre came out winning.

2.) Heather needs to drop big time

Heather is the hardest character to tier in the game.

3.) Sigrun could be little higher I think

I raised her up a bit recently, but I don't see how much further she could go.

[Narga_Rocks]

You know, I was trying to imply that Mist should get the physic staff. I know she only heals for like 23 HP with it and her range is like 6 to start with and will go up a bit slowly, but more likely 24 hp and 7 range. The reason I think Mist should get it is that she makes more use of the extra 10 experience (gets to 2HKO or better and is never ORKOd). We only have 11 uses likely after Elincia healed some people from far away, like Mordecai when she is on the left so he can grass and Haar when he is wherever, or even Nealuchi when he untransforms if we let him take on the silver greatlance general and he got hit before transforming. Anyway, 11 uses are for emergencies only because unless you disarm/steal you are stuck until 3-10 is over. I guess since it is for emergencies then the emergency might be so bad you need that extra 10 hp that rhys can give you or the extra 5 range, but you can't use the physic staff all the time so Mist is still mending where she can be attacked by one guy when rhys isn't able to.

I suppose the physic staff hurts Mist and helps Rhys overall, though.

About Heather, she can get you so much stuff it's great. And Ike disarm/flourish. I know some people don't like when that is brought up, but if you take a couple of shots at stuff every chapter on average you should get one or two good things in part 3. See, it isn't like disarm/flourish hurts Ike's enemy phase and he doesn't need all his player phases to reach level 20 by 3-11, so 20 by the end of 3-E is a cinch. Giving it to Mia or Shinon might be okay, but I'm not convinced disarm works if you do "no damage" and if they don't use flourish they might go and critkill something you were trying to disarm. And they need the experience more than Ike does.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

1.) Why is Lyre > Fiona?

My favourite question *Prepares speech*

By part 4, Lyre is likely to be level 22 and have an S in strike. Let's compare the two when they reach part 4, both choose Tibarn's route as it weilds the most exp:

Level 22 Lyre, S strike, 'A' ranulf: Hp: 50, Mt: 31, As: 30, Hit: 165, Avo: 114, Def: 18, Res: 12

level 20/3 Fiona with a silver lance, 'A' Jill: Hp: 33, Mt: 27, As: 19, Hit: 142, Avo: 102, Def: 18, Res: 15

Offensively... it's a massive win for lyre. Who deals more damage in one attack but actually doubles, unlike Fiona. There is no chance for Fiona to be able to deal more damage than Lyre at this point in time. But guess what? Even a base level Lyre with S strike deals as much damage as Fiona does.

Defensively, it's 12 avo, 11 AS and 17 HP against 3 res. Lyre wins defence too. this is excluding the fact that Jill would prefer to go with Micaiah's team for the desert chapter. In that scenario, Fiona loses 30 avo and 2 def. Meanng that it's possible for the durability battle to look like this:

Lyre V Fiona

17 HP, 11 AS, 42 avo and 2 def V 1 res.

Lyre wins, easily.

Oh, and these are MASSIVE wins for Lyre at this time, enougth for an entire tier lead, definitely.

Then, let's compare Fiona and Lyre. Since Lyre doubles whatever she gets, let's double her growths taht double once she transforms:

Lyre: 50% HP, 70% Atk, 140% AS, 330% Avo, 40% Def, 60% Res.

Fiona: 45% HP, 40% Atk, 60% AS, 175% Avo, 55% Def, 50% Res.

Lyre wins in everything save defence, which she gets from her supports, anyway. Not to mention the GM's can actually afford to protect her with units liek Gatrie and Shinon around. There's noone save Volug and Nolan to protect the DB, and they have ALL of the DB to worry about too. Lyre wins.

Oh, and Lyre has access to more bexp for abuse.

Edited June 29, 2009 by kirsche

[Yojinbo]

Why is Heather hard to tier? She's bad in combat and her stealing utility is never needed except in 4-4. She can't even hit from 2 range since she possibly won't deal any damage with knives. She can do some minor damage, back-up support and very rarely steal disarmed weapons ... and that's supposed to be better than Brom and Tauroneo?

About Sigrun ... I think she might be low-mid ... though I'll look at some numbers first.

Fiona has 2 range attacks and earth support utility over Lyre although it probably won't be enough to make her better I guess...

Edit: Forget what I said about Sigrun...I agree that she's low tier.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Yojinbo

[Zkirsche]

Fiona has 2 range attacks and earth support utility over Lyre although it probably won't be enough to make her better I guess...

bad 2 range, though, Fail accuracy is fail. And earth isn't crushing thunder anyway.

I'm still for a "Worst than Est" tier with Fiona in it.

About Sigrun ... I think she might be low-mid ... though I'll look at some numbers first.

I can see her above Vika.

-----

Also, Soren > Rhys:

Soren gets staves after promotion as well as kickass offense. His offense is not awesome when you get him, but it's not pathetic either. You just need to let him finish up others' kills until his speed gets up, or he'll even get adept sometimes. Rhys, no matter how much he heals, is a liability because he not only fails to double, he sometimes gets doubled, and since he has fail avo and def, he's going to die if you don't surround him with walls. Frankly, since vulneraries heal 20 in this game, you'd probably be better off using those. Nobody has enough HP that they'd need more than that until part 4, and by then you have better healers, i.e. Micaiah, Elincia, Laura, and even Oliver.

[Ether]

Lyre has thunder affinity,which is almost as good,except that she provides bonuses for a lot longer time period.She is also not a complete failure defensively.Her base HP saves her here,and that's something Fiona doesn't have,not to mention Lyre can atleast double before most GM's with BEXp,so it gives her bad offense,but better than Fiona's.She should prolly have her own tier.