OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

Missed this:

edit: lmfao @ Int, I never even said that Mia wasn't good or lower than high tier (that was smash jfyi). I just said that Shinon > her and that she sucks without Adept.

Hey guess what, you're still wrong on both counts. Mia is pretty good even with nothing but a critforge. Screw Adept. Go ahead, be a lunatic and give Adept to someone who is worse with it than Mia (which is more or less every single one of the early GMs): she still has something gross like 38-40 pre-dodge crit. When you're at least 3HKO on a bunch of units and double everything, that's a lot of kills, son. It even puts 4HKOs in reach, which is something not even Adept can do.

Sucks, my ass. Compare her offense to Titania (without a Speedwing, because Mia can't get Adept), or Gatrie (without a crown, because Mia can't get Adept), or Haar (without a Speedwing or Resolve, because Mia can't get Adept), etc etc. I guess all of those units suck, too. The only unit in the army that's stomping her is Ike, and even then she still beats him on Swordmasters, and on high-AS Halb/Warriors if he gets SPD-screwed.

You also made a crack about Earth, which is wrong. Also, you're wrong about Shinon being better than her.

Basically, what I'm saying here is that every time you open your mouth about Mia, you manage to betray your complete lack of understanding of how to even use her, never mind your ignorance as towhat she's capable of.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

Lyre with 3 levels of BEXP is basically Mia with more move, better affinity, more durability, but without the effect that beorc weapons can have. Hell, Lyre will actually have more avoid, as she's not limited by caps. Only problem really is cat meter, and that her strength has a hard time picking up. Both happen to be major problems however.

I COULD see her using Wrath...But I won't push it.

In fact, I could see her above Astrid, because Astrid does the equivelent of dick during her chapters. Her problems are also not so easily solved either. Meg has a case though, but Astrid should be < Meg and Lyre.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Zkirsche]

Lyre with 3 levels of BEXP is basically Mia with more move, better affinity, more durability, but without the effect that beorc weapons can have. Hell, Lyre will actually have more avoid, as she's not limited by caps. Only problem really is cat meter, and that her strength has a hard time picking up. Both happen to be major problems however.

I COULD see her using Wrath...But I won't push it.

So what, are you arguing her above Astrid? Because I can see that. She at least has the durability to live longer than her and double.

The only things getting in her way is her tranformation gauge. And both Lethe and Ranulf share that issue and are vastly above Astrid.

[Yojinbo]

Mia is pretty good even with nothing but a critforge.

You should re-read my posts. I never said that Mia wasn't pretty good.

Screw Adept. Go ahead, be a lunatic and give Adept to someone who is worse with it than Mia (which is more or less every single one of the early GMs): she still has something gross like 38-40 pre-dodge crit. When you're at least 3HKO on a bunch of units and double everything, that's a lot of kills, son. It even puts 4HKOs in reach, which is something not even Adept can do.

3HKO on what units? Priests/mages? I'd like to see some numbers to back that up. Besides there are other units, who benefit greatly from Adept. Titania and Soren jump from 2RKO to 1RKO so it's not like Adept is a given for Mia.

Sucks, my ass. Compare her to Titania (without a Speedwing, because Mia can't get Adept), or Gatrie (without a crown, because Mia can't get Adept), or Haar (without a Speedwing or Resolve, because Mia can't get Adept), etc etc. I guess all of those units suck, too. The only unit in the army that's stomping her is Ike, and even then she still beats him on Swordmasters, and on high-AS Halb/Warriors if he gets SPD-screwed.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that Mia can't get Adept. And imo neither Haar nor Titania should get a Speedwing (and Haar with Resolve? ... idk). You make completely nonsensial assumptions thathave nothing to do with what I said.

You also made a crack about Earth, which is wrong. Also, you're wrong about Shinon being better than her.

See, I can do the same:

no u

/smash style

Basically, what I'm saying here is that every time you open your mouth about Mia, you manage to betray your complete lack of understanding as to how to even use her, never mind your ignorance what she's capable of.

What? Because I admit that she's a good unit? Because I don't complain about her getting Adept and a support with Ike?

Your accusations lack any reasonable foundation. You complain about things I never said...

I never said that Mia wasn't a good unit, nor that she doesn't get Adept. You're just behaving overly defensive as you do everytime Mia is mentioned. Oh no, somebody's saying that Mia isn't zomfgwtfhaxrapebbqsauce QQ

[Narga_Rocks]

Lyre with 3 levels of BEXP is basically Mia with more move, better affinity, more durability, but without the effect that beorc weapons can have. Hell, Lyre will actually have more avoid, as she's not limited by caps. Only problem really is cat meter, and that her strength has a hard time picking up. Both happen to be major problems however.

Except, 1 level of of bexp for her costs 1700 * 1.5, or 2550. So 3 levels costs 2550 + 2700 + 2850 = a lot to not even perform better than most of your existing units. I know it is bottom tier and all, but it seems like a lot. And since strength is her 5th highest growth, by .15 behind hp and luck, she is now sitting at 22 mt still. Mia with a C anyone, + 1 str from less than the number of levels she'll have by 3-4, and a bronze sword. Wow. She is definitely like another Mia. (that was sarcasm by the way). And since Mia should now have B Ike or will by 3-5, Mia likely has better durability too. And if she fights just two enemies between player phase and enemy phase each turn she must grass or will eventually untransform. -13 meter, + 15 meter, so can ignore a grass any time she can attack on player phase and have > 13 meter afterwards. I know you hopefully aren't saying she is anywhere close to Mia's ability, but the point is you get nothing out of all that bexp.

Just a random shot about Mia being 3HKO on stuff:

look at the HM enemy stat topic. in 3-5 the best warriors have 42 hp and 17 def. Mia at base level with a C anyone support and a steel blade is 3HKOing them. This isn't even a forge and she hasn't even leveled yet! Do you really think she isn't at worst 3HKO on like everything that isn't a general?

And let me introduce you to math for Titania going from 2RKO to ORKO. Mia has 28 soon to be 30 speed. Titania has 21, lets say 23. Mia does two hits. Titania does one. Mia has a .7*.7 chance of leaving the enemy alive, aka a 51% kill chance without even her crit taken into account. Titania has a 77% chance of leaving the enemy alive, aka a 23% chance of killing it. Since neither was going to kill the thing without taking crit into account giving Mia adept instead of Titania more than doubles her chances of killing the thing.

If we send them both into a crowd of enemies, who do you think is leaving more things dead?

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

I don't think he as saying she was as good as Mia, but definitely better than the likes of, say, Astrid.

[Dat Nick]

wait....

Bottom (5)

Sanaki

Astrid

Meg

Lyre

Fiona

Im pretty certian we have enough evidence for Meg to move above Astrid.

Oh, and fuck that, Lyre WITHOUT 3 levels of BEXP has semi comparable ATK to Astrid, but the huge thing is Lyre can actually double, and her ATK goes up a lot quicker [+1 str=2 str for her, Lagooz rank weapons, et cetera]

Edited June 29, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't think he as saying she was as good as Mia, but definitely better than the likes of, say, Astrid.

I know he wasn't saying that. And I know it is bottom tier so we can't expect much. But giving her bexp we can't afford to make her useable doesn't strike me as any worse than Rage Fox's blossom suggestion, assuming blossom isn't crap like last game and actually does more than 1.1x growths in this game.

[Interceptor]

You should re-read my posts. I never said that Mia wasn't pretty good.

I did re-read your posts. You said that "[Mia] sucks without Adept", a statement that is so fucking wrong as to be personally insulting to reality.

3HKO on what units? Priests/mages? I'd like to see some numbers to back that up. Besides there are other units, who benefit greatly from Adept. Titania and Soren jump from 2RKO to 1RKO so it's not like Adept is a given for Mia.

On everything that's not a General (or Draco, but Wyrmslayer). Christ dude, she has 17 STR base and 14 mt from a critforge, which is already enough to 3HKO the Halberdiers in 3-2, and 3HKO the PAladins with extra HP to spare. Priests? Mages? 2HKO.

Others benefit greatly? If anyone reading this post just heard a scream, is was Math in its death-throes. Titania doesn't double with 21 SPD, Mia doubles with 28SPD. Titania's chance to ORKO something that she 2HKOs is 21% with Adept, Mia's to ORKO on something that she 3HKOs is 48.16%. Mia has better activation by a factor of 2.3x. That's a total blowout.

Math whizzes in the wings, I know that the real-world numbers are different because of crit, etc.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that Mia can't get Adept. And imo neither Haar nor Titania should get a Speedwing (and Haar with Resolve? ... idk). You make completely nonsensial assumptions thathave nothing to do with what I said.

Pardon me for making a perfectly reasonable inference from your "Mia sucks" garbage.

What? Because I admit that she's a good unit? Because I don't complain about her getting Adept and a support with Ike?

No, it's because you have no fucking idea how to use her at all. You bitch about Adept, you bitch about Earth, you ignore Vantage, you ignore Cancel, you ignore forges, you make up imaginary situations where Mia 4HKOs fantasy aliens from Mars, etc. I hate it when people sandbag units, but you're a repeat offender.

[Narga_Rocks]

@ Int. Beat ya to it, ha! :P

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

wait....

Im pretty certian we have enough evidence for Meg to move above Astrid.

I don't feel like arguing that further, so if no one else is opposed to it I'll just do it.

Oh, and fuck that, Lyre WITHOUT 3 levels of BEXP has semi comparable ATK to Astrid, but the huge thing is Lyre can actually double, and her ATK goes up a lot quicker [+1 str=2 str for her, Lagooz rank weapons, et cetera]

But this is one I know I can win. There a few differences that make Astrid superior to Lyre:

-2 range. This is a big one, because both suck hard on the offense yet Astrid at least doesn't have to take a counter.

-Canto. This one is obvious.

-Two chapters where she at least isn't knocking anyone else out. Lyre competes for a slot until part 4.

-Ways to increase offense via things like Killer Bow + Bonds.

-My previous method of Blossom + BEXP, and possible transfers (at least she can get them. Lyre can't).

-Caps that are actually quite good for Endgame. Even if you can get a blessed Lyre to cap Str and such, she'll still suck.

-No transformation gauge.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Rage Fox

[Dat Nick]

-1-2 range. This is a big one, because both suck hard on the offense yet Astrid at least doesn't have to take a counter.

huh? what 1-2 range? Bow knights cant use bowguns.

And the sad thing is Astrid's offense would suck way less if she COULD.

Edited June 29, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Florete]

huh? what 1-2 range? Bow knights cant use bowguns.

And the sad thing is Astrid's offense would suck way less if she COULD.

My mistake. I meant 2 range.

[Interceptor]

@ Int. Beat ya to it, ha! :P

That's what I get for taking the extra time to throw in colorful language. You win this round, Moriarty.

[Yojinbo]

I did re-read your posts. You said that "[Mia] sucks without Adept", a statement that is so fucking wrong as to be personally insulting to reality.

It's not that wrong, really.

Others benefit greatly? If anyone reading this post just heard a scream, is was Math in its death-throes. Titania doesn't double with 21 SPD, Mia doubles with 28SPD. Titania's chance to ORKO something that she 2HKOs is 21% with Adept, Mia's to ORKO on something that she 3HKOs is 48.16%. Mia has better activation by a factor of 2.3x. That's a total blowout.

Dude, you got a screw loose. Again, you accuse me for saying stuff I never said. Show me where I said that Mia isn't the best character to use Adept or else stfu you annoying brat.

Pardon me for making a perfectly reasonable inference from your "Mia sucks" garbage.

Quote or it didn't happen.

You bitch about Adept,

Quote plz

you bitch about Earth,

Quote plz

you ignore Vantage, you ignore Cancel, you ignore forges,

Not mention =/= ignoring

I hate it when people sandbag units, but you're a repeat offender.

Since I'm a repeat offender:

no u

Int, you're the biggest Idiot I ever debated with. I don't even know what you talk about (and you probably don't even know it yourself). You just drag me into a pointless discussion. You come up with stuff I don't even disagree with and then act as if I said things like "Mia sucks", which is a blatant lie.

You say I "bitch" about her getting Adept, when I don't. You say I "bitch" about her getting an Earth support, when I don't. You put words in my mouth and then when I respond to it you ignore the main message (which is that I don't disagree with most of what you say) and pick out single sentences like "Titania with Adept can jump from 2RKO to 1RKO" and start another rant about how much better Mia can use it ... and then you act like I said that Mia can't use it better? Dude, get your head straight. Me saying that Titania / Soren benefit from Adept =/= saying that Mia doesn't make better use of it.

But your too dumb to understand that. I expect you to pick my post apart and start another rant about how much better Mia is at anything than any other unit and you will probably accuse me of complaining about things that I actually agree with you.

Go ahead and do it, since you got nothing better to do anyways.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Yojinbo

[Narga_Rocks]

That's what I get for taking the extra time to throw in colorful language. You win this round, Moriarty.

I don't know about that, this was pretty funny:

If anyone reading this post just heard a scream, is was Math in its death-throes.

C'mon Yojinbo, even if you take offense at Int making assumptions you don't agree with, that's at least a bit funny, even with one minor typo.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

So what, are you arguing her above Astrid? Because I can see that. She at least has the durability to live longer than her and double.

The only things getting in her way is her tranformation gauge. And both Lethe and Ranulf share that issue and are vastly above Astrid.

Ok, lets get to it.

So. First thing to note is Astrid is in a short amount of time during part 2. Her strongest weapon available appears to be a Steel Bow. With this bow, she 3RKOs the weakest physical defensive class on her joining chapter. Rather pitiful when you compare her to just about everyone else on your team. At neutral bio, she has 129 hit as opposed to these guys 49 hit. 80 displayed hit. I suppose it's not bad. As for defensive, they 4RKO her. Some myrmidons however, pack 18 AS which doubles her, a 2RKO. Everything else 3-2HKOs her. There also happen to be a shitload of enemies on this map, and only so many CRK to help. Compared to everyone else on the team, who 2-1RKOs, she is not holding up well. Oh sure, she has Paragon, but these are unpromoted enemies. She's not gaining too much exp regardless. Not that it helps, her growths are overall low. Can't even really fix them with BEXP, as her three highest growths are Skill, Luck and Resistance, all three of which are far off from capping. Regardless, she's stuck with sucking.

2 Things to keep in mind. We don't want to necessarily killface this chapter. We could always go for the BEXP with killing as few as possible. Secondly, it's hard to protect her as is even with canto involved, because enemies have the advantage of reinforcements and plenty of places to swarm from. We just wanna rush the hell out of this chapter, and with Astrid 3RKOing and being needed to be protected (since 3RKO is helping none who 2-1RKO regardless), she is only holding us back here. I dare not bring up Epilogue, as she would get destroyed there, and she doesn't do jack shit. At best, she's attacking hte silver greatlance general, of which she does all of 2 damage to him. 18RKO. I bet Geoffery is proud. Even worse is that the enemies got a nice 10-20 point spike in avoid, and now they got leadership on their side. Astrid now has to deal with fucking hit issues. That general I mentioned has 56 avoid. Drops her to 73 at neutral bio. I also recall this dickhead has affinity bonus, which makes him incredibly annoying to deal with. Stack leadership on that, and Astrid's lucky to actually hit a fucking general. Bow users throughout the series are weeping. Not even Ronan failed this hard.

Then the CRK vanishes, Lyre comes in at...Chapter 4. Important note is that she can double generals and mages off the bat. She only needs 1 speed to double most things on the map save swordmasters. Luckily, she only needs 1 speed, and speed is her #1 growth, and by a huge margin. Closest growth comes in by 20%. Very likely to get it in just one BEXP level, which with Ike's group is by no means terrible, especially a unit who levels like a tier 1 level 17 dude, well below the level of everyone else on the fucking team save Illyana. She won't be taking much. Hell, if we got enough for 3 levels, she can double the swordmasters and their 23 AS with her 28 AS. 3 levels boosts her to Mia level use. Lets get some numbers of a Lyre with 3 BEXP levels. Most likely...

Transformed

49 HP, 14 Str, 28 Skill, 28 Speed, 17 Luck, 14 Def, 16 Res, an extra point in either luck or HP.

22 MT, 73 Avoid, and I doubt Mia is that durable by the time Lyre shows up. Untransformed, there are things that can one round her, and I can save you time by saying if it's a greatlance, a pole axe, a long bow or a warrior in general, keep her away. Everything else she can survive. Transformed however...

Takes 3 Steel axe warriors to kill her, and they have 56-57 displayed hit on her before bio and leadership taken in account. Those are rather meh odds, but those are also the 3 strongest units on the map. General avoid, she has from about 60-30 displayed hit on her without leadership in account nor bio.

Takes 4 Halberdiers to kill her, and hte weakest enemies the Swordmasters need 5 to gang up on her. Needless to say, she's not a tank but she's not paper either. Offensively? 22 MT is sad even with doubling considered. Let's chec it out though.

Generally 3RKOs warriors, at a time when most of your team has trouble doubling anyways. Halbardiers are a bit too heavy duty for her to consider attacking unless they got like 4-6 HP left. Against swordmasters she 3RKOs, but most of your team isn't having that easier a time due to not doubling. Unless they got a crazy powerful weapon with them, and then you gotta consider hit. Lyre with 28 skill, 17 luck, laguz strike and leadership is simply not missing.

Luckily, she 2RKOs mages, but they happen to be slow to the point that I'd be surprised if others aren't doubling them anyways. Elthunder mages need 6 to gang up on her to take her down. Elfire mages are indeed a problem, as they 2-3RKO her, and they got around 60 displayed hit. Lyre's gotta watch herself around them.

Snipers she 4RKOs. Against generals, she's not stupid enough to attack them.

This is her starting chapter. Just wait till she gets a support from someone with her delicious thunder affinity (Astrid? LolWind), gets her a bit more defense and more juicy sexy avoid. Due to doubling, she'll get her strike up eventually which adds a nice 5 padding to her claws, which she effectively turns into 10 due to doubling.

Growth wise? Well let's just forget for a moment that Lyre has a TON more time and experience to work with, and her level is actually rather reasonable considering the situation. Her durability growths are ALREADY higher than Astrid's before laguziness is taken into account, so she's growing to be twice as durable than Astrid will ever hope to be. Avoid? Don't even get me started. 70% growth when you effectively turn 1 speed into 2 is fucking hilarious, and decent luck growth with base on top of it with Thunder, as if she already weren't better than Astrid. Offensively? Well Astrid's stuck with bows, while Lyre's stuck with melee and transformation. If Ranulf can keep himself going for a nice while, so can Lyre. However, Astrid's srength growth is better by 5%...But when we take laguz turning 1 Str into 2? Effectively you could say that Lyre actually grows strength around 20% faster.

Now lets think. When Astrid returns and shows up with Ike's group? I can't imagine the sort of rape Lyre is performing on poor Astrid statistically. Lord have mercy if Lyre ever reaches level 30...Rend activating on speed percentage? Muthafuck that's nuts. Speaking of speed, it also means she can put the ever beloved Adept to good use. Not saying she will get it, but she's a very capable person by then.

Astrid's gonna need a lot more BEXP than Lyre does to get anywhere, I can tell you that.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Ah well, another of my posts ignored. 8100 bexp to get her 3 levels. Laguz take bexp at 1.5x and HM costs double what it does in NM to get a level and we get half what we got in NM. She takes ~3 chapters worth of bexp or more depending on turn count and how many laguz alive in 3-P, horses and senators surviving in 3-3 and stuff like that. 1 level seems not so bad cause 2550 is only 1 or 2 chapters worth and 2 chapters is depending on what chapters you are looking at. So 24 spd is all I can see being reasonable for Lyre to have in 3-4.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Ah well, another of my posts ignored. 8100 bexp to get her 3 levels. Laguz take bexp at 1.5x and HM costs double what it does in NM to get a level and we get half what we got in NM. She takes ~3 chapters worth of bexp or more depending on turn count and how many laguz alive in 3-P, horses and senators surviving in 3-3 and stuff like that. 1 level seems not so bad cause 2550 is only 1 or 2 chapters worth and 2 chapters is depending on what chapters you are looking at. So 24 spd is all I can see being reasonable for Lyre to have in 3-4.

Considering this bexp would otherwise be used on higher level tier 2 units or even tier 3? It's not as bad as you think. Most of that would have just gone to most likely one level later on on someone else, and I bet by then they'd be considerable in ability. Besides, it's not like I'm trying to argue Lyre out of bottom here. Lyre can easily get out of her hole, Astrid can't. Thus the point.

Either way, 24 Speed is enough to double everything on the map save Swordmasters.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Interceptor]

It's not that wrong, really.

Oh no, it's not that wrong at all. Mia without Adept sucks, even though if Adept didn't exist she's still beating basically everyone on her team for offense in the early-to-midgame except Ike. Mia without Adept sucks, even though a huge percentage of the units she fights with a critforge can bend over and kiss their asses goodbye 40% of the time. Mia without Adept sucks, even though if you gave Mia a forge, and gave Titania a forge AND ADEPT, Mia still beats her on things that they 2HKO/3HKO and Titania doesn't double.

Barely wrong! You'd need an electron miscroscope to tell the difference between "right" and what you said. If wrongness was food, a mouse could starve to death on the difference. On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is Wrong, and 10 is Really Wrong, you're obviously a 0.9.

Dude, you got a screw loose. Again, you accuse me for saying stuff I never said. Show me where I said that Mia isn't the best character to use Adept or else stfu you annoying brat.

You said that other units "benefit greatly", which means your Superlative Machine is operating dangerously beyond the manufacturer's stated threshold. Mia's usage of Adept is so high, that's she getting more use out of it than a magical fairy army that had two Titanias and two Adepts. Sounds to me like what you should have said is "besides, there are other units that benefit LESS THAN HALF OF WHAT MIA CAN DO". Feel free to use that quote without attibution, I give it to you for free.

Quote or it didn't happen.

Not mention =/= ignoring

Be patient, I have to wait for you to say it over here since I don't wanna dig through GF archives. Also, not mentioning is the Same Difference when you're making a statement when any of those things are germane to the point, aka her durability.

Int, you're the biggest Idiot I ever debated with. [...] I expect you to pick my post apart and start another rant about how much better Mia is at anything than any other unit and you will probably accuse me of complaining about things that I actually agree with you.

I am only a little bit sorry for dragging in the past, since I do in fact tend to beat on people even when they agree with me, but I am fully justified in taking you to task for some of the dumb statement and/or implications that appear in anything that you say.

[Florete]

Considering this bexp would otherwise be used on higher level tier 2 units or even tier 3? It's not as bad as you think. Most of that would have just gone to most likely one level later on on someone else, and I bet by then they'd be considerable in ability. Besides, it's not like I'm trying to argue Lyre out of bottom here. Lyre can easily get out of her hole, Astrid can't. Thus the point.

I already outlined Astrid's method of getting out of her hole, and as I recall, you agreed she'd be fairly well off on promotion.

[grandjackal]

You mean this?

But this is one I know I can win. There a few differences that make Astrid superior to Lyre:

-2 range. This is a big one, because both suck hard on the offense yet Astrid at least doesn't have to take a counter.

-Canto. This one is obvious.

-Two chapters where she at least isn't knocking anyone else out. Lyre competes for a slot until part 4.

-Ways to increase offense via things like Killer Bow + Bonds.

-My previous method of Blossom + BEXP, and possible transfers (at least she can get them. Lyre can't).

-Caps that are actually quite good for Endgame. Even if you can get a blessed Lyre to cap Str and such, she'll still suck.

-No transformation gauge.

-Oh god, not Klein vs Fir again...2 range is an advantage if you don't suck, and Astrid sucks against unpromoted enemies in her starting chapter. It takes her 3 shots to kill the weakest physical enemy on the map.

-Been a while since you played 2-3, hasn't it? Take a look at it, and remember that reinforcements flood in from the sides, and have easy access to your front, back and sides. There is nowhere for Astrid to hide. Next part 2...The CRK in general are doing little regardless.

Oh yay, 10 crit from...Mak...

It's fun when you need to rely on others just to need a specific weapon that requires luck to kill shit.

- 1 chapter we don't neccesarily even want to kill, and the other the CRK do little to jack shit aside from fight hte silver greatlance general, of which she does 2 damage with her strongest weapon, and even has hit issues. Fuck Astrid's part 2, forced or not.

-Congratulations, you pumped Astrid full of skill, luck and resistance, none of these fixing her existing problems at all. As for transfers? I'm not gonna play through an entire game (where she could get screwed no less), just so she sucks less in this one. In fact? Due to this as she takes FOREVER to cap these stats, you effectively made her worse.

-She reaches a grand total of...Resistance and Luck...She doesn't even come close to capping anything else. At least when Lyre caps her speed, she can bexp her strength issues to hell. Skill most likely maxed by then, Str would be her 3rd highest growth, first two being HP and Luck. Astrid's got bad strength AND doubling issues.

-Right, Astrid has no transformation issues. She just has to deal with being bad anyways. In fact, by the time she shows up with the mercs? She most likely will have stats comparable to Lyre untransformed, assuming Lyre is being used seriously and is not just at base. This is durably anyways. It's hard NOT to be more offensive than an untransformed cat.

Yes, I did say Astrid is quite good promoted, granted we pumped her with BEXP at the right level (which means she's using more than base Lyre), then you have to consider that she gets to those levels in the first place with the little time she has. Lyre's got plenty of time, where as Astrid doesn't. Also note that Lyre is doing better on stronger enemies while Astrid's doing worse on unpromoted...

Edited June 29, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

About Yojinbo and Int and the Mia thing.

When you say stuff like other units benefit greatly, it seems to imply that Mia isn't deserving of Adept or that she isn't entitled to it. If you think she is the best at it, then say that. It's simple: "Other units benefit from Adept too, but I admit Mia is the best at it", or something like that. Do you think she is entitled to it at least until 3-8 where Ulki benefits similarly? (Janaff doesn't because he is already 1RKO on stuff Ulki and Mia 3HKO. Generals are the only thing that take he 3HKOs, and so his improvement from Adept is on one type of unit, Ulki's and Mia's improvement is on everything else. ie: better for the team). If you DO think she is entitled to it, then why bother bringing up Soren or Titania? If you don't think she is entitled to it, well that is why Int and I are dragging that assertion through all this crazy math stuff.

And I'm not digging through the HM enemy stats to show that Mia leaves non generals with fewer HP than anyone else does when she doubles and they don't. Or at worst similar HP. Maybe generals is a different story. And she ORKOs swordmasters and mages/priests anyway, while most of your people probably don't OHKO so even if they double they merely equal Mia and have a greater chance of getting hit on the counter. The HP difference when she leaves things alive is usually enough for people like Neph and Soren and Ilyana to kill, and while you might not be seriously raising them, it'll free up stronger hitters to do other things, but when Titania leaves something alive, for example, you need to waste one of your stronger hitters' turns to completely overkill something. So even without Adept or a critforge she is still better at offense. And if you actually raise her she will eventually reach ORKO on paladins. It will likely take until after promotion if she doesn't rise in str fast enough, but she gets there, so even though others might ORKO one unit type she doesn't because people actually double them, it won't last forever.

[Florete]

-Oh god, not Klein vs Fir again...2 range is an advantage if you don't suck, and Astrid sucks against unpromoted enemies in her starting chapter. It takes her 3 shots to kill the weakest physical enemy on the map.

What the hell is this? 2 range is better if you suck (which both of these units do) because you can at least avoid taking counters.

-Been a while since you played 2-3, hasn't it? Take a look at it, and remember that reinforcements flood in from the sides, and have easy access to your front, back and sides. There is nowhere for Astrid to hide. Next part 2...The CRK in general are doing little regardless.

What are you talking about? Canto just allows her to get out of the way. It's an advantage.

Oh yay, 10 crit from...Mak...

It's fun when you need to rely on others just to need a specific weapon that requires luck to kill shit.

It's awesome when you can at least get a chance to kill something.

- 1 chapter we don't neccesarily even want to kill, and the other the CRK do little to jack shit aside from fight hte silver greatlance general, of which she does 2 damage with her strongest weapon, and even has hit issues. Fuck Astrid's part 2, forced or not.

When I said 2 chapters I meant 2-3 and 3-9. I generally don't include 2-E for any of the CRK's except Marcia and Calill.

-Congratulations, you pumped Astrid full of skill, luck and resistance, none of these fixing her existing problems at all. As for transfers? I'm not gonna play through an entire game (where she could get screwed no less), just so she sucks less in this one. In fact? Due to this as she takes FOREVER to cap these stats, you effectively made her worse.

Did you even look at what I did to her? I raised her level 20 averages by 2-3 points each (those that didn't cap anyway) via Blossom and some BEXP (not nearly as much as you want to give Lyre).

And if I can get transfer bonuses for Astrid to make her suck a bit less (which I can do for ~11 other characters at the same time as well), that's more than I can say for Lyre.

-Right, Astrid has no transformation issues. She just has to deal with being bad anyways. In fact, by the time she shows up with the mercs? She most likely will have stats comparable to Lyre untransformed, assuming Lyre is being used seriously and is not just at base. This is durably anyways. It's hard NOT to be more offensive than an untransformed cat.

I don't where the hell you're getting these numbers from unless you're pumping all the GM's BEXP into Lyre. For the record, Lyre at base levels like a 20/14 Beorc with 4 maps until joining with Astrid. Astrid is a 20/2 Beorc with Paragon for two maps before meeting Lyre. I daresay Astrid will gain more levels than Lyre as long as neither has been pumped hard with BEXP.

Might I also mention once again that Astrid can at least go to those maps for free. Lyre doesn't.

Also note that Lyre is doing better on stronger enemies while Astrid's doing worse on unpromoted...

...What the hell?

[grandjackal]

What the hell is this? 2 range is better if you suck (which both of these units do) because you can at least avoid taking counters.

Lyre is not exactly doing so bad she has to avoid counters. This allows her to do more countering. Advantage Lyre.

What are you talking about? Canto just allows her to get out of the way. It's an advantage.

Go look at 2-3 again. Where the hell is she gonna escape to? She can't escape to the sides, she sure as fuck isn't moving forward, and if she's running back she's running back to the start, as if she gets deep enough in she might just retreat into cav reinforcements from the left side. She has nowhere to canto to that isn't hiding possible danger.

It's awesome when you can at least get a chance to kill something.

Right, existing dodge and durability should just be swept under the rug, because they don't matter.

When I said 2 chapters I meant 2-3 and 3-9. I generally don't include 2-E for any of the CRK's except Marcia and Calill.

Oh. Fair enough.

Lets check 3-9 anyways. Chances are with what little she's been doing, I'd find it weird to imagine she even gained a level Even with paragon, unrpomoted enemies aren't exactly scoring you a lot when you're doing chip damage.

Wow, takes her 5 shots to kill an unpromoted soldier.

3x Soldier lvl 20 (Steel Lance)

HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 121, Avo 45, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 8, Ddg 9

Dear god, he's 2 rounding her as well. God forbid they catch her with a longbow equipped, they can double her.

This is the weakest enemy type on hte map. Everything else handily doubles her, and ORKOs her. You don't exactly have a lot of people around to protect her with, and there are ledges to keep in mind. Most common enemy type is Halberdiers of this breed.

4x Halberdier lvl 7 (Steel Lance, north one has *Speedwing)

HP 36, Atk 29, AS 19, Hit 130, Avo 50, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 12

Even if she lands 2 crit hits, she still needs to take 2 more shots to kill this motherfucker.

As for generals? TINK! She needs 5 levels to even be able to damage this thing.

Unless you can tell me how she got 4 levels in such short time with doing very little, most of the enemies beforehand yielding little bexp...I doubt she's being special here.

Even if we went with your BEXP padding+Blossom combo, with 3 chapters she would gain 3 levels. YThus you have gained...1 luck and 1 HP, which does not help her survive any better than otherwise.

Proffessor Fonzworth: WHEEEEE!! : D

Did you even look at what I did to her? I raised her level 20 averages by 2-3 points each (those that didn't cap anyway) via Blossom and some BEXP (not nearly as much as you want to give Lyre).

Oh, so basically the idea is to give her bexp to be close to a level up, then equip her with blossom, of which you then send her to battle so the next thing she does gets her a level that doesn't even boost her growths by 5%? It's still nowhere close to effective, especially with how much she needs just to be of existing use for her own chapters.

And if I can get transfer bonuses for Astrid to make her suck a bit less (which I can do for ~11 other characters at the same time as well), that's more than I can say for Lyre.

You have fun playing hard mode of a 30 chapter game, where you might get screwed in that endeavor as well. I'll just give Lyre a bit of bexp, nd she'll be good now.

I don't where the hell you're getting these numbers from unless you're pumping all the GM's BEXP into Lyre. For the record, Lyre at base levels like a 20/14 Beorc with 4 maps until joining with Astrid. Astrid is a 20/2 Beorc with Paragon for two maps before meeting Lyre. I daresay Astrid will gain more levels than Lyre as long as neither has been pumped hard with BEXP.

Yes, she's leveling faster than Lyre for the 2 maps of real action, 1 of which has unpromoted enemies, the other of which she'd doing dick....

Besides, I only really need to give Lyre 1 level of BEXP to make her usable, I just gave her 3 for a greater effect of how well she puts bexp to good use.

Wait, like a level 20/14 Beorc? Guess she fits in pretty well with most of the mercs then! Their levels are comparable, she does fine considering. Not that big a deal.

Might I also mention once again that Astrid can at least go to those maps for free. Lyre doesn't.

One map they don't need her, the second she does absolutely nothing, the 3rd she's basically a kid with a toy. Lyre's at least comparable instantly to Mia with a bit of help, as opposed to the bit of help you gave her with blossom+bexp doing the equivelent of fucknuts. It may help her level 20 averages...If she ever fucking gets there.

...What the hell?

Did you have a brain fart? 2-3 is unpromoted enemies, thus the extreme fall of talent in the next 2 chapters when promoted units are the majority.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf