OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

After her one level of bexp she levels transformed like 20/16, and do you know how little Titania gets for hits or kills? And again, losing mt to Mia by 8 when Mia is at base level with a steel blade is not comparable at all. 7HKOing compared to 3HKOing warriors? Or 13 HKOing halbs vs 3HKOing (if Mia actually gets levels, 4 if not)? I don't really see the whole comparable bit.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

How can Ike do this alone and live?

His concrete durability is comparable to Gatrie. A --/20/5 Ike has 56 hp, 33 def, 13 res and 93 avo, not to mention a 17% chance of healing himself per attack at 1 range (assuming neutral bio). Aside from mage threats, Ike is not worried about survival in the least. The support is more of a luxury for him than anything.

I'm not even sure if he can double warriors at this point.

--/20/6 or higher would get him enough on average. That might sound like a lot, but Ike gains something like 30+ exp per kill and is probably handling most of the enemies to the south in 4-1, so 5 level-ups there is perfectly plausible. Moreover, Ike caps str and skl at lv --/17/0, at which point spd becomes his third highest growth. With BEXP he can raise his average by say, 2 points.

At any rate, giving Ike paragon in 4-1 would obviously improve his performance in 4-4 if he’s borderline doubling without it. This is consistent with my argument that even high/top tier units get significant gains from using paragon, which is different from eg/ putting adept on Tibarn in 4-2.

Edit: forgot about the 30-31 people. I suppose having that in 4-4 might help, but can't we paragon them a bit before 4-1?

As long as they can find benefits from paragon at some point, that hurts Laura’s chances of getting it for herself. Either that, or you could look at it as her using a resource with a high opportunity cost.

Besides, if we aren't taking them to endgame they are better used by just weakening something for someone who is going to endgame.

Who says we aren’t bringing someone with 29 AS in the beginning of 4-4 to endgame? This is particularly rhetorical when considering the existence of blessed brave weapons, which make someone like Haar or Gatrie a viable choice.

[grandjackal]

After her one level of bexp she levels transformed like 20/16, and do you know how little Titania gets for hits or kills? And again, losing mt to Mia by 8 when Mia is at base level with a steel blade is not comparable at all. 3HKOing compared to 7HKOing warriors? Or 13 HKOing halbs vs 3HKOing (if Mia actually gets levels, 4 if not)? I don't really see the whole comparable bit.

Comparable, not beating. I know Lyre's offense sucks, but it's nowhere near as bad as Astrid's.

That one level with speed gives her 24 AS, Warriors generally have 20 AS. She's not 7HKOing.

[Vykan12]

Have you guys considered putting an energy drop into Lyre? That's giving her an extra 8 damage per round when she doubles, and just 2 level-ups jumps her to doubling mode (22 -> 26).

[grandjackal]

Have you guys considered putting an energy drop into Lyre? That's giving her an extra 8 damage per round when she doubles, and just 2 level-ups jumps her to doubling mode (22 -> 26).

At base, she has 22 AS. 1 speed gets her to 24, the AS of her joining chapter in general is 20 AS. She doesn't need 2 levels, just 1.

But yes, I would have brought that up, but it's a bit more favoritism...

Wait a minute, the killer bow for Astrid? That sucker's going to the mercs for sure. Astrid not only keeps it from being used for as long, but as shown she can't even put it to good use. Lol, needing to crit 3 times to kill one thing.

[Florete]

Lyre is not exactly doing so bad she has to avoid counters. This allows her to do more countering. Advantage Lyre.

Yeah, she is. She barely damages enemies and has a gauge to worry about. If she fights too much, she's dead, and she can barely fight at all. Advantage Astrid.

Go look at 2-3 again. Where the hell is she gonna escape to? She can't escape to the sides, she sure as fuck isn't moving forward, and if she's running back she's running back to the start, as if she gets deep enough in she might just retreat into cav reinforcements from the left side. She has nowhere to canto to that isn't hiding possible danger.

Did you forget the fact that 5 other units and allies exist on the map?

Right, existing dodge and durability should just be swept under the rug, because they don't matter.

Great strawman.

Lets check 3-9 anyways. Chances are with what little she's been doing, I'd find it weird to imagine she even gained a level Even with paragon, unrpomoted enemies aren't exactly scoring you a lot when you're doing chip damage.

You've probably never used Astrid. Makes sense, since she's terrible and all. But with some babying (Lyre needs it too, so don't go OMGABUSE!) she can gain 3-4 levels, maybe a bit more.

As for generals? TINK! She needs 5 levels to even be able to damage this thing.

Sounds a lot like Lyre against the enemies she faces.

Unless you can tell me how she got 4 levels in such short time with doing very little, most of the enemies beforehand yielding little bexp...I doubt she's being special here.

Who said she was being special? This is Bottom fucking tier we're talking about here. Both of these units are the definition of suck.

Even if we went with your BEXP padding+Blossom combo, with 3 chapters she would gain 3 levels. Thus you have gained...1 luck and 1 HP, which does not help her survive any better than otherwise.

Why only 3 levels?

Oh, so basically the idea is to give her bexp to be close to a level up, then equip her with blossom, of which you then send her to battle so the next thing she does gets her a level that doesn't even boost her growths by 5%? It's still nowhere close to effective, especially with how much she needs just to be of existing use for her own chapters.

No, that wasn't the idea. In fact, I never said anything like that. Did you read the post? I'm talking about this one. And you don't know exactly how Blossom works. It seems no one does, since I've asked around a lot and people can only guess.

You have fun playing hard mode of a 30 chapter game, where you might get screwed in that endeavor as well. I'll just give Lyre a bit of bexp, nd she'll be good now.

Who said it had to be HM of PoR? Who said she can't be blessed and get transfers in everything but Mag and Luck?

And "a bit" of BEXP? You pumped over half the GM's BEXP into her!

Yes, she's leveling faster than Lyre for the 2 maps of real action, 1 of which has unpromoted enemies, the other of which she'd doing dick....

And Lyre does better in her 4 maps? (Hint: she doesn't)

Besides, I only really need to give Lyre 1 level of BEXP to make her usable, I just gave her 3 for a greater effect of how well she puts bexp to good use.

That's laughable. You should take a closer look at her stats. A level of BEXP gives her Skl, Spd, and Luck or HP. The Spd helps her double some stuff, but she's still generally doing 4-6 damage a hit and absolutely nothing to Generals. Fun fact: Lyre could come with Spd capped and she only might be better. Spd is not her big issue, MT is (and transformation and shit like that). She can barely damage a damn thing, and BEXP won't help that until Spd and Skl cap, which with BEXP alone takes 9 levels, but then Lyre has accumulated so much negative utility by taking all of our BEXP and continuing to suck while doing it, then needing even more to be any better than terrible while leveling slow that I might as well just take her off the list for being such a fantastic failure.

Lyre does not put BEXP to good use.

Wait, like a level 20/14 Beorc? Guess she fits in pretty well with most of the mercs then! Their levels are comparable, she does fine considering. Not that big a deal.

Comparable levels =/= good for her. In one level she's now growing like a 20/16 Beorc. By 20 she's almost a third tier but still sucking ass (which is what your 3 levels of BEXP pumped her to). Add the fact that she has a retarded gauge and she can't even fight when she really needs to, Player Phase.

One map they don't need her, the second she does absolutely nothing, the 3rd she's basically a kid with a toy. Lyre's at least comparable instantly to Mia with a bit of help, as opposed to the bit of help you gave her with blossom+bexp doing the equivelent of fucknuts. It may help her level 20 averages...If she ever fucking gets there.

Comparable to Mia? Bullshit. Mia's more powerful, faster, durable, has possible 1-2 range, crit, no transformation, a support, etc. Blossom + BEXP made Astrid not suck, and you admitted that previously. Plus, Astrid can come into 3-11 at a slightly lower level than I originally assumed, it'll only give her a few more levels with Blossom, which will arguably help her.

Did you have a brain fart? 2-3 is unpromoted enemies, thus the extreme fall of talent in the next 2 chapters when promoted units are the majority.

Your point made no sense. Look at it again and see if you can't understand why someone would have no clue what the hell you think you're saying, regardless of the fact that it isn't true.

[charmander6000]

I'd like to argue Sothe > Leanne.

In part 1 Sothe is your best unit for 1-2, 1-3 and 1-4 and is still great for the rest of part 1. In part 3 Sothe has a monopoly over Beastkiller and in 3-6 Micaiah can easily trade with him to something safer and then use Psychic. 3-12 his offense is still good, same with 3-13 and he could use Beastkiller when it's safe. His offense starts to drop in 4-P, but he can still 2RKO most enemies. 4-3 is all about finding stuff in the desert such as Baselard, White Gem, Dragon Foe and the Laguz Gem. Endgame we all know about, but at least he can give his spot to Nasir or Gareth >_>

Leanne on the other hand doesn't have as many chapters as Sothe, in fact Sothe's availabilty is about twice as much as Leanne's. 2-P Leanne can vigor Marcia and Nealuchi so that they can team up and kill another enemy, but with the way the chapter is built waiting for Haar or even doing nothing is just as effective. 2-2 there's no doubt that Leanne is the reason why we are able to complete the chapter by max bexp and in 2-E she also pretty good. 3-11 Leanne appears in a weird position. Leanne can survive one direct hit from the stone throwers which is good until the last third where she may have to hang back and with her low move she may not be able to fully catch-up. 4-P she also does well, but in 4-3 Leanne is feeling the heat again. Since the team is mostly fliers, mages and laguz after the first turn of vigoring transformed laguz Leanne is basically left in the dust. With many units having a massive 9 move compare to Leanne's 5 she just can't keep up, even mages have 6 move. To make matters worse untransformed Leanne (which she'll probably be) can't access a large portion of the map because a purge mage at the bottom right which can ORKO her (there's also another on about mid-left, but someone usually gets it by turn 2. Leanne is probably the worst heron at endgame since she can only vigor two units.

[Vykan12]

At base, she has 22 AS. 1 speed gets her to 24, the AS of her joining chapter in general is 20 AS. She doesn't need 2 levels, just 1.

1 level gives her a 65% chance of getting 22 AS. With 2, it jumps to 88%, and by average stats she'd have 1.3. Though what bothers me the most is that she needs 3 level-ups by 3-8 in order to double consistently there, though enemy AS doesn't really improve for the rest of part 3 beyond that point.

But yes, I would have brought that up, but it's a bit more favoritism...

It's not that bad. She gets double the raw benefit from it that beorc do, and it's not in as high a demand as say, speedwings are. It's easily a net gain for her (sucking a lot less for hurting the team's resources slightly).

Wait a minute, the killer bow for Astrid? That sucker's going to the mercs for sure.

There are no merc enemies in this game.

[soundecho]

He meant the Greil Mercenaries i.e mercs

[grandjackal]

Yeah, she is. She barely damages enemies and has a gauge to worry about. If she fights too much, she's dead, and she can barely fight at all. Advantage Astrid.

As opposed to Astrid who does dick damage and dies from being sneezed on?

Did you forget the fact that 5 other units and allies exist on the map?

You mean everyone else on the map better than her? Yes, I did forget, she's not the only one on this map. There happen to be a fuckton of allied units, most of them fellow paladins. There are potentially a LOT of people taking care of this chapter.

Great strawman.

Statistics are a strawman? The strongest even without BEXP 3HKO herThe weakest when Astrid's fightnig unpromoted noobs pull off 3-2 rounding. Lyre's ALREADY more durable.

You've probably never used Astrid. Makes sense, since she's terrible and all. But with some babying (Lyre needs it too, so don't go OMGABUSE!) she can gain 3-4 levels, maybe a bit more.

Not as bad as Astrid, All Lyre really needs is one BEXP level to be usable.

Sounds a lot like Lyre against the enemies she faces.

At least she's not tinking Halberdiers, which Astrid almost does with her strongest available weapon available to her.

Who said she was being special? This is Bottom fucking tier we're talking about here. Both of these units are the definition of suck.

If only 1 BEXP level makes Lyre at least usable, my hope of balance in this game is restored. Perhaps Lyre should be in Low? :3 Kekekeke

Why only 3 levels?

2 chapters, 1 with unpromoted enemies and the other she does jack shit, and she's not entitled to ALL of the bexp you gathered for the part 2 team up until then. How the fuck could you possibly get more for Astrid? Are you a fucking magician?

No, that wasn't the idea. In fact, I never said anything like that. Did you read the post? I'm talking about this one. And you don't know exactly how Blossom works. It seems no one does, since I've asked around a lot and people can only guess.

So with BEXP...You effectively screwed her even worse. All you did was further ensure her BEXP levels go to Skill, Luck and Resistance, as now those growths are even higher percentage compared to the other growths.

Who said it had to be HM of PoR? Who said she can't be blessed and get transfers in everything but Mag and Luck?

Says Lyre, the person who doesn't need the playthrough of an entire other game just to not suck less than absolutely sucking.

And "a bit" of BEXP? You pumped over half the GM's BEXP into her!

That was with 3 levels in mind. She only needs 1 to be usable.

And as opposed to you who essentially set BEXP on fire wasting it on Astrid who just gains Skill Luck and Resistance?

And Lyre does better in her 4 maps? (Hint: she doesn't)

I'd hardly call being 3HKOd by the strongest enemy type on the map with actually existing avoid (goes from 60-30 displayed on her depending on what the enemy is and what they're using) not doing better. By the time Astrid shows up with the mercs, she is...laughable. I daresay Astrid is barely better than Fiona.

That's laughable. You should take a closer look at her stats. A level of BEXP gives her Skl, Spd, and Luck or HP. The Spd helps her double some stuff, but she's still generally doing 4-6 damage a hit and absolutely nothing to Generals. Fun fact: Lyre could come with Spd capped and she only might be better. Spd is not her big issue, MT is (and transformation and shit like that). She can barely damage a damn thing, and BEXP won't help that until Spd and Skl cap, which with BEXP alone takes 9 levels, but then Lyre has accumulated so much negative utility by taking all of our BEXP and continuing to suck while doing it, then needing even more to be any better than terrible while leveling slow that I might as well just take her off the list for being such a fantastic failure.

Oh I'm sorry, my mistake. Her highest growths are HP (55%), Resistance (50%) and Luck (70%). Next highest is Skill (45%). Outside of magic, Speed is actually her lowest growth of 40%.

If might is Lyre's problem, I dread Astrid's problem. Lyre starts with 7 Str, which is effectively 14, 1 more than Astrid's base. She also essentially grows Str 20% faster than Astrid per level due to Laguz turning 1 point to 2.

Lyre does not put BEXP to good use.

One level's all she needs. Astrid just sets it on fire.

Comparable levels =/= good for her. In one level she's now growing like a 20/16 Beorc. By 20 she's almost a third tier but still sucking ass (which is what your 3 levels of BEXP pumped her to). Add the fact that she has a retarded gauge and she can't even fight when she really needs to, Player Phase.

At least Lyre can compare to someone on her team. Astrid just fucky-sucky.

Speaking of sucking, 35 battles with that one BEXP level up gets her S strike, and a nice 5 padding to her attack which is 10 more power with doubling. As you can see, unlike Astrid, Lyre's offense can actually improve.

Comparable to Mia? Bullshit. Mia's more powerful, faster, durable, has possible 1-2 range, crit, no transformation, a support, etc. Blossom + BEXP made Astrid not suck, and you admitted that previously. Plus, Astrid can come into 3-11 at a slightly lower level than I originally assumed, it'll only give her a few more levels with Blossom, which will arguably help her.

Yet Lyre is more durable with similar defense, more HP and similar avoid before supports factored in (of which is Thunder to Mia's Fire, Thunder which imrpves all things durability with defense and avoid). Offensively, indeed they do not compare. Defensively? Lyre might actually be a bit better there.

Your point made no sense. Look at it again and see if you can't understand why someone would have no clue what the hell you think you're saying, regardless of the fact that it isn't true.

How so? It effects how quickly Astrid's leveling, especially since you're crazy enough to give her Blossom against these guys.

Just drop the Blossom argument, she'd benefit more from more levels faster than batter stats wayyyy later.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Vykan12]

He meant the Greil Mercenaries i.e mercs

Oh.

Well killer weapons are buyable from 3-10 onwards, so I don't see the issue with Astrid getting one.

[Colonel M]

Oh.

Well killer weapons are buyable from 3-10 onwards, so I don't see the issue with Astrid getting one.

I believe Wolf meant in 2-3.

EDIT: Killer Bow isn't available to the GMercs until P4.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

1 level gives her a 65% chance of getting 22 AS. With 2, it jumps to 88%, and by average stats she'd have 1.3.

She has a 70% spd growth. Not 65.

[grandjackal]

She has a 70% spd growth. Not 65.

She also already starts with 22 AS...She starts with 11 speed, x 2 is 22. Did Vykan forget how to multiply?

[Vykan12]

She also already starts with 22 AS...She starts with 11 speed, x 2 is 22. Did Vykan forget how to multiply?

???

Let me fix my post.

1 level gives her a 70% chance of getting 24 AS. With 2, it jumps to 91%, and by average stats she'd have 1.4. Though what bothers me the most is that she needs 3 level-ups by 3-8 in order to double consistently there, though enemy AS doesn't really improve for the rest of part 3 beyond that point.

[grandjackal]

Theoretically within this time, you can pad it with a small bit of bexp. Not a lot, just a bit. However, that I suppose would just be more favoritism, and an odd form of it no less...

Anywho, I think Lyre might deserve the top of bottom, but I fear Meg might have a case, as she only needs 1 level of BEXP to be usable as well (1 speed denies tigers the double), of which would help her greatly in the long run.

Yet I feel Meg and Lyre should be above Sanaki. She shows up to part 4 to be a mediocre mage. Lyre and Meg should be destroying her in some shape and form by the time she shows up.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Bitter Chocolate Striker]

EDIT: Nevermind.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Bitter Chocolate Striker

[charmander6000]

I feel that Meg is bit underrated in this topic. She needs a bit of a push to get over the initial hump, but after that she can hold her own. She's not great, but that's why she's ranked so low.

[Vykan12]

I'm pretty convinced Astrid is better. Lyre has to actively use her pitiful 22 atk, which is doing things like hurting your units' enemy phase. I mean even bowgun Shinon is better than her in that regard (+2 atk, more crit, 1-2 range). Astrid on the other hand can at least be used in such a way as to prevent her from ever facing a single counter, or hurting efficiency beyond taking up a better unit's slot.

[Interceptor]

I'm pretty convinced Astrid is better. Lyre has to actively use her pitiful 22 atk, which is doing things like hurting your units' enemy phase. I mean even bowgun Shinon is better than her in that regard (+2 atk, more crit, 1-2 range). Astrid on the other hand can at least be used in such a way as to prevent her from ever facing a single counter, or hurting efficiency beyond taking up a better unit's slot.

This is what I refer to as the "Smash2008" argument. I wish you success in arguing it where I failed. Strictly from an efficiency standpoint, logic suggests that making potshots and Rescuing random units is better than Meg's Lyre's modest performance with all of the resources and crappy Enemy Phase that come married with it.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Interceptor

[Vykan12]

Meg's stats are a lot more salvagable though. If we somehow got her to lv 20/0/0 by 1-E, she now has the same AS as base level Volug. Her atk also becomes comparable to Zihark's, so she's 2RKOing most things she doubles at worst. Then she has a much easier time to get a slot in parts 1+3 than Astrid + Lyre could ever hope in their existence.

For the record, I'm not necessarily saying Meg > Astrid, just that there's a much better case for that then there is Lyre > Astrid.

[Narga_Rocks]

His concrete durability is comparable to Gatrie. A --/20/5 Ike has 56 hp, 33 def, 13 res and 93 avo, not to mention a 17% chance of healing himself per attack at 1 range (assuming neutral bio). Aside from mage threats, Ike is not worried about survival in the least. The support is more of a luxury for him than anything.

I don't think I said he'd die in one round. I'm just complaining that I have to heal him more often. Aether means I probably don't have to heal him every round, but I'd still rather not have to heal him if possible.

--/20/6 or higher would get him enough on average. That might sound like a lot, but Ike gains something like 30+ exp per kill and is probably handling most of the enemies to the south in 4-1, so 5 level-ups there is perfectly plausible. Moreover, Ike caps str and skl at lv --/17/0, at which point spd becomes his third highest growth. With BEXP he can raise his average by say, 2 points.

Yeah, the one time I don't check stats first. That's what I get though. So Warriors have, what, 26 speed in that level with a couple having 27, and in 4-1 the hm topic has 24 speed max for non-swordmasters (er, 26 max for pegs). That bexp Ike you suggested actually has 30 speed at 20/1, and it is easy to slowplay him so that he only needs like 10 to 20 points 3 times in part 3 so it is cheap to make that Ike anyway.

At any rate, giving Ike paragon in 4-1 would obviously improve his performance in 4-4 if he’s borderline doubling without it. This is consistent with my argument that even high/top tier units get significant gains from using paragon, which is different from eg/ putting adept on Tibarn in 4-2.

I'm not sure he needs paragon to get 1 point of speed to double everything, though getting him enough levels by the middle of 4-4 to get 35 speed and double all but like 1 sm might help him, but isn't that level 20/12 to get 34 speed and 20/15 to get 35 speed? I don't know if paragon gets him that far. He is still ORKOing everything but generals and sm's without paragon use. Does he need paragon to survive even if you send him on his own? I'm honestly asking because I think his chances to survive are similar either way. Even Generals are killed by a 20/3 Ike with Mia support or a 20/7 Ike without (edit that's 4-1, can't see and don't remember 4-4, but obviously higher) . I just don't see a significant improvement in Ike. HM may not give a ton of exp, but Ike and Mia get plenty by duoing the initial rush in the south in 4-1 and then going either west or east. 20/5 or 20/6 is not unreasonable without paragon. Then in 4-4 I think there is enough for the two of them without Ike needing to solo. And if he solos then isn't there even less need of paragon?

Besides, do you get a lot of benefit from having Ike solo instead of use Mia help? There is a tempest blade for her partway through 4-4 where she needs it most and she could have the earlier one or a storm sword before she gets the new tempest blade. She isn't exactly hurting against the 3 or 4 1-2 range guys that actually move. Plus it just seems easier for two people to take out all those generals and priests.

Still, I guess Ike receives some benefit from that, if only to double sm's earlier and maybe cap a couple of things earlier so he can be bexp'd again if you get him close enough to make it cheap.

I'm confused about what the thing about Tibarn is about, by the way. (edit: I'm guessing just to point out pointless things to do or something. There is one guy with a taksh and a crit rate on Tibarn, though. I think he has around 40 to 50% hit and 4% crit or something low like that. Adept takes the already low chance Tibarn has of dying from the guy and drops it further, so it isn't 100% pointless, just 99% pointless. By the way, does the taksh guy move on HM? I always make sure to kill him first just in case.)

As long as they can find benefits from paragon at some point, that hurts Laura’s chances of getting it for herself. Either that, or you could look at it as her using a resource with a high opportunity cost.

You know, I probably have to give that to you. I still think she benefits the team more, but not by as much as Mia with adept or something like that. I guess that might make it favouritism, but likely excuseable favouritism. Still though, Oliver's main competition is Bastian anyway since Micaiah is apparently a healbot in this tier list so Oliver will never see fortify use. But I guess that is probably not enough of a negative to stop Oliver from going > Pelleas, which Rage fox already did anyway.

Who says we aren’t bringing someone with 29 AS in the beginning of 4-4 to endgame? This is particularly rhetorical when considering the existence of blessed brave weapons, which make someone like Haar or Gatrie a viable choice.

Blessed brave weapons are nice and all, but they should have less than 20 uses left (except brave sword which could easily have over 30 if you haven't used zihark much since Mia doesn't even want it), so they aren't so great in the first two chapters where a brave weapon might help the most because it could break or need to be hammerne'd. They don't help at all against deg and aren't very good against auras. Even Gatrie at max strength does less with brave lance than Neph or Marcia can do with a wishblade in the last two endgame chapters. Still, since you can bring a 33 spd cap unit to endgame and they do okay but not great, I guess they aren't completely out. But I do think that anyone giving paragon to someone in part 4 that is not going to endgame is using it wrong.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

I used Ike as an example of someone who could profit from paragon because he’s both top tier and is making obvious gains with the resource. In contrast, putting something like adept, resolve or cancel on Ike is a complete waste.

Perhaps I should put this in perspective in a broader sense. Paragon acts like a gradual stat booster in every stat, and no single unit is so infallible that this won’t have a noticeable impact. If we look at just the “speedwing” benefit of this:

-Skrimir has 24 base AS. This serves him fine in 4-P, but doesn’t quite cut it in the desert (halbs/warriors/snipers have 22+ IIRC). We want to get Skrimir to gain 4 levels as quickly as possible for that extra point of speed, and paragon is getting him there almost twice as fast.

-Tauroneo has decent AS and a 50% growth in that department. Giving him paragon could help him double at some point in 4-2 instead of not at all.

-Nolan suffers from having poor base spd but a high growth (60%). Paragon helps him double tigers faster in 3-6, double things in general in 3-12 (he needs 23-24 there, which he reaches at 20/10-12ish) and helps him reach 34 sooner (he only hits that at 20/20/9-10).

The extra hp/def someone gets from paragon might allow them to take an extra hit in 4-E. The extra str might turn a borderline ORKO into a reliable one. The list goes on.

I’m confused about what the thing about Tibarn is about, by the way.

Tibarn ORKOes everything naturally in 4-2, so putting adept on him is about as useful as putting fortune on a unit with capped luck. Conversely, paragon has considerable benefits on any unit regardless of their performance level.

Still though, Oliver's main competition is Bastian anyway since Micaiah is apparently a healbot in this tier list so Oliver will never see fortify use. But I guess that is probably not enough of a negative to stop Oliver from going > Pelleas, which Rage fox already did anyway.

Indeed, enough about Oliver vs Pelleas. The only reason I’m continuing this paragon debate is for when it gets brought up in defence of lower tiers in the future.

Still, since you can bring a 33 spd cap unit to endgame and they do okay but not great, I guess they aren't completely out.

There are people who could have 29 AS in 4-4 while having a spd cap of 34 or higher. Rolf and Boyd come to mind.

[grandjackal]

I feel so betrayed....

Rrrr...So what does everyone think of Rolf going lower? I wanna say below Vika, but I feel I'd be set on fire for it. Not sure why...

[Vykan12]

I've shown a loooong time ago that Rolf > Ilyana, at least in regards to parts 3+4 (IIRC, having a chance to actually double things and having existing durability > 1-2 range). Having him drop below Vika would upset that.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Vykan12