OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

Well all I can say is this there is only 2 people to test this on as soon as possible, and I believe it's Soren and Lyre.

We can test it on the field indeed, and Soren is probably the easiest to do so. I suppose if this works, it would mean it works for a BEXP, and the possible +2 in a BEXP can be thought up another day. We will know it's the case if in any of these level ps that Soren gets 2 points in magic and/or speed, or Lyre gains a point in speed.

If it works, it could be a nice boost for those with 70% growths in important areas. Rolf, Lyre, Big Mak, would certainly help those with 70% growth or higher in HP be more durable. Other such things.

As a note about people saying only Kurthnaga can have a growth above 100 (HP) with blossom, Volug has the same growth, and so it's the same case for him.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Ether]

Well all I can say is this there is only 2 people to test this on as soon as possible, and I believe it's Soren and Lyre.

We can test it on the field indeed, and Soren is probably the easiest to do so. I suppose if this works, it would mean it works for a BEXP, and the possible +2 in a BEXP can be thought up another day. We will know it's the case if in any of these level ps that Soren gets 2 points in magic and/or speed, or Lyre gains a point in speed.

If it works, it could be a nice boost for those with 70% growths in important areas. Rolf, Lyre, Big Mak, would certainly help those with 70% growth or higher in HP be more durable. Other such things.

As a note about people saying only Kurthnaga can have a growth above 100 (HP) with blossom, Volug has the same growth, and so it's the same case for him.

Why not test it on Laura?

She has 3 70% growth rates,so it would probably take less time to get a result than anyone else.

[grandjackal]

Why not test it on Laura?

She has 3 70% growth rates,so it would probably take less time to get a result than anyone else.

Now class, when do we get Blossom? Part 2. We ship it to the mercs via Nephenee. Only Part 2 units to test it on are non-existent Makalov or leveling like molasses Mordecai.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Ether]

Now class, when do we get Blossom? Part 2. We ship it to the mercs via Nephenee. Only Part 2 units to test it on are non-existent Makalov or leveling like molasses Mordecai.

Yeah,we have to wait a little further in the game to get it,but since we should get results 3x as quickly,it should be worth it,right.

[Narga_Rocks]

Why not test it on Laura?

She has 3 70% growth rates,so it would probably take less time to get a result than anyone else.

That's a good point. She is probably the quickest way of determining if 1.5 is a bad estimate since having 3 stats at 70% would make her that much more likely to miss one. It might still take a few tries and since the only reliable way of testing is on the map (we don't know enough about how bexp works, and frankly even with 77% from a 1.1x blossom she is still far more likely to get those than anything else anyway) it would take a while. Best bet is starting around 13/1 in part 4 with paragon on easy. It shouldn't take too long to get 10 levels when ever kill is a level for a while. The trouble is wasting time getting to part 4 on easy. (I say easy since you would probably need more than double the kills for Laura on HM). 13/1 is better than 20/1 since she is further from her caps so you don't need to restart as often for testing when she isn't capped, and anything less than 13/1 might be too hard for her to kill stuff.

doh, can't give both paragon and blossom. I know, hack!

And to pretty boi, we get more datapoints with fewer levels and it isn't hard to get through part 3. It is likely faster to restart a chapter 5 times with Laura killing 7 things than 15 times with Mak killing 20 things. Especially since we can't use paragon it would take forever to get enough kills to level 7 times in anything but part 4 with blossom anyway. Seriously, even on easy mode since blossom cuts experience Laura might have to kill 3 things per level. Imagine trying with Mak.

Unless you want to reload every time he kills one thing.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Yeah,we have to wait a little further in the game to get it,but since we should get results 3x as quickly,it should be worth it,right.

Suppose someone might have a save in part 4? I suppose someone could just Seal her, slap on paragon and see how it works out.

Damn, Narga beat me to it.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Interceptor]

Blossom is in Part 3, chapter 3... in a tent.

[grandjackal]

Blossom is in Part 3, chapter 3... in a tent.

*facedesk* I could have sworn it was gotten part 2...x.x

...Wait a minute, that just makes RageFox's argument for powering up Astrid even crazier!

[Ether]

That's a good point. She is probably the quickest way of determining if 1.5 is a bad estimate since having 3 stats at 70% would make her that much more likely to miss one. It might still take a few tries and since the only reliable way of testing is on the map (we don't know enough about how bexp works, and frankly even with 77% from a 1.1x blossom she is still far more likely to get those than anything else anyway) it would take a while. Best bet is starting around 13/1 in part 4 with paragon on easy. It shouldn't take too long to get 10 levels when ever kill is a level for a while. The trouble is wasting time getting to part 4 on easy. (I say easy since you would probably need more than double the kills for Laura on HM). 13/1 is better than 20/1 since she is further from her caps so you don't need to restart as often for testing when she isn't capped, and anything less than 13/1 might be too hard for her to kill stuff.

doh, can't give both paragon and blossom. I know, hack!

And to pretty boi, we get more datapoints with fewer levels and it isn't hard to get through part 3. It is likely faster to restart a chapter 5 times with Laura killing 7 things than 15 times with Mak killing 20 things. Especially since we can't use paragon it would take forever to get enough kills to level 7 times in anything but part 4 with blossom anyway. Seriously, even on easy mode since blossom cuts experience Laura might have to kill 3 things per level. Imagine trying with Mak.

Unless you want to reload every time he kills one thing.

You could just BEXp her to 99 exp and battle save on the first turn.all she needs to do is attack a single enemy,and you can rng abuse from there to see how it turns out.Of course,this wont work on HM.

[Narga_Rocks]

*facedesk* I could have sworn it was gotten part 2...x.x

...Wait a minute, that just makes RageFox's argument for powering up Astrid even crazier!

Not really. We can't change skills in part 2 anyway and whether you blossom in 3-9 or 3-11 isn't much of a difference. Plus I think she may have been saying blossom in 3-11 anyway.

You could just BEXp her to 99 exp and battle save on the first turn.all she needs to do is attack a single enemy,and you can rng abuse from there to see how it turns out.Of course,this wont work on HM.

I know, but I was seriously hoping to avoid restarting too often.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Ether]

I know, but I was seriously hoping to avoid restarting too often.

It's still faster than getting her multiple level ups.This is easily controlled,and should be the quickest method.

[Zkirsche]

Not really. We can't change skills in part 2 anyway and whether you blossom in 3-9 or 3-11 isn't much of a difference. Plus I think she may have been saying blossom in 3-11 anyway.

Oh yes there is, Lyre can use blossom in 3-11 too.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh yes there is, Lyre can use blossom in 3-11 too.

I think the idea is that a level 20/6 unit, or whatever Astrid will be, will actually get worthwhile experience with blossom equipped, especially with paragon to balance.

Blossom costs 20, paragon 15, and shove 5. Lyre does not have 40 capacity. And Lyre when transformed levels as a 20/14 beorc. When untransformed she pings and dies. And since we were trying to make her worthwhile in part 3 before 3-11 she should be leveling as if she was 20/20 or something. She will be getting levels so slowly it really isn't practical to give her blossom unless you want to blossom for 1 level at the start of the map by bexping her to 99 beforehand. And then why even bother with blossom instead of just resetting for her level to be good?

It's still faster than getting her multiple level ups.This is easily controlled,and should be the quickest method.

Is it bad to restart the wii multiple times in a row? I've heard various things but people might simply be paranoid about it. Anyway, that is why I was hoping to avoid resetting.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Ether]

Is it bad to restart the wii multiple times in a row? I've heard various things but people might simply be paranoid about it. Anyway, that is why I was hoping to avoid resetting.

I'm pretty sure people are paranoid.I've done plenty of abuse PT's before,and nothing has happened to mine.

[grandjackal]

I think the idea is that a level 20/6 unit, or whatever Astrid will be, will actually get worthwhile experience with blossom equipped, especially with paragon to balance.

Blossom costs 20, paragon 15, and shove 5. Lyre does not have 40 capacity. And Lyre when transformed levels as a 20/14 beorc. When untransformed she pings and dies. And since we were trying to make her worthwhile in part 3 before 3-11 she should be leveling as if she was 20/20 or something. She will be getting levels so slowly it really isn't practical to give her blossom unless you want to blossom for 1 level at the start of the map by bexping her to 99 beforehand. And then why even bother with blossom instead of just resetting for her level to be good?

Because if my theory is right, there is no point to bringing Blossom to the field for certain units, Lyre being one of them. Why?

All she needs is a bit of speed at first. Granted she's not strong, but doubling helps her case by a sheer amount. With blossom and a BEXP level, she's garunteed that speed and good to go. If BEXP can give a +2 level for a growth above 100% (Lyre with blossom will effectively have 105% speed growth), she could possibly gain 2 speed, which equates to 4 speed laguz. This is a sheer help to her evasion, along with reaching her speed cap that much sooner, along with helping her doubling promise stay steady. Considering she's tecnically already more durable than Astrid at base (speed base isn't far off from Astrid's untransformed, Astrid gets doubled in 3-9 regardless while Lyre's got more HP and thus more likely to survive, when transformed is quite a bit more capable) and has a thunder affinity to help further the cause (as opposed to lolWind Astrid). My argument is that Lyre will have a durability lead by the time Astrid shows up while Astrid will have nowhere near an offensive lead either. Astrid's not even helpful during part 2. At least Lyre is fixable. You don't even have the time to make Astrid's existence have a point.

I really do believe that Astrid is barely better than Fiona.

Hell, you could slap paragon on Lyre, and unlike Astrid for her part 2 it would actually have a point (unpromoted units don't give any better exp to make a difference to her, she does dick in the epilogue). It's not an advantage if you don't get anything notable out of it. Lyre on the other hand is at least leveling at about the same rate as any other of the GM. Lyre has time, Astrid does not.

Even without paragon, Lyre still beats Astrid silly, and I would base it alone on how great the thunder affinity is.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

But even if I pretend that Lyre will be guaranteed speed and skill on a bexp level up, then further pretend she could possibly get 2, she is now getting skl and 2 spd on her level.

22 mt is really bad. Someone else said it before, even if she started with capped spd she would still suck. I don't know if I'd go that far because she could actually dodge reliably so she is unlikely to get hit and thus might as well be uncountered. But she'd still be 4RKOing (7 hits) 16 def warriors and 5RKOing (9 hits) 17 def warriors in her starting chapter, and 7RKOing (13 hits) 19 def halbs and 10RKOing (19 hits) 20 def halbs.

All she can do with capped spd is tank, and even that gives her a minus 2 gauge per turn against a mere 3 enemies even with grassing each turn, so she will likely not be able to tank more than 3 enemies per turn very often.

And leveling at the same rate as other GM's? Shinon is the second highest leveled gm and even he levels faster. Everyone else (except obviously titania) either levels faster or much faster. And giving her that bexp level in 3-4 she needs to double more stuff? Now she is leveling as badly as titania. Worse even, because her str growth is now being blocked by bexping her (with your method) and she gets even less exp next level than titania will after her next level.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

But even if I pretend that Lyre will be guaranteed speed and skill on a bexp level up, then further pretend she could possibly get 2, she is now getting skl and 2 spd on her level.

22 mt is really bad. Someone else said it before, even if she started with capped spd she would still suck. I don't know if I'd go that far because she could actually dodge reliably so she is unlikely to get hit and thus might as well be uncountered. But she'd still be 4RKOing (7 hits) 16 def warriors and 5RKOing (9 hits) 17 def warriors in her starting chapter, and 7RKOing (13 hits) 19 def halbs and 10RKOing (19 hits) 20 def halbs.

All she can do with capped spd is tank, and even that gives her a minus 2 gauge per turn against a mere 3 enemies even with grassing each turn, so she will likely not be able to tank more than 3 enemies per turn very often.

And leveling at the same rate as other GM's? Shinon is the second highest leveled gm and even he levels faster. Everyone else either levels faster or much faster. And giving her that bexp level in 3-4 she needs to double more stuff? Now she is leveling as badly as titania.

Skill, 2 speed and luck. This is what I mean by testing, we have no idea how this would work exactly, as no one TESTED this. This is what I want to find out, as it can be a pretty big advantage. They say it gives you 3 stat points, but how do we know it just doesn't roll RNs to boost 3 stats not maxed?

Either way, it's not like I want every level of hers to be BEXP fueled, just one. In the end I must ask you this.

How is Astrid's offense any better, and in what POSSIBLE way is Astrid ever able to tank at all ever in any possible way? You basically might as well have said Astrid is better because you say so. A fixable unit who sucks at first is better than a unit who sucks forever. At 3-9 she risks getting doubled and ORKOd by unpromoted units. Lyre on the other hand when transformed needs 3 of the strongest warriors to kill her on her joining chapter. Hell, Lyre can actually survive untransformed as long as the thing attacking her isn't wielding a great/pole/long weapon and isn't a warrior. That is better than being ORKOd by every goddamn thing no matter what.

[Narga_Rocks]

At 3-9 she risks getting doubled and ORKOd by unpromoted units.

Right, I keep forgetting. Some other people on this site seem completely incapable of stopping units with less durability from getting attacked when we don't want them to be. I'm sorry. I'll try to remember this for next time. Forgive me.

Astrid has 28 might with a silver bow in 3-11 assuming she never got a single str point. Astrid can attack almost anything and run back to a spot where she won't get attacked. When feeding kills to Lyre, I have to get the enemy down to a lower hp total than I do Astrid or else Lyre won't get the kill. Unless we somehow got Lyre S strike already or 3 str or 1 str and an energy drop. Lyre doubles, Astrid doesn't, well that just means that after I feed Lyre 3 kills I have to heal her rather than the people I'm actually letting be attacked. Now Lyre probably does more damage to some enemies than Astrid does in Astrid's one hit. Okay. But I never have to heal Astrid. Personally I don't see Lyre winning this. And come part 4 Astrid can use a silver forge and really hurt stuff in one hit.

Now, normally I'd complain about an archer's enemy phase causing slower leveling and stuff like that. But Lyre isn't killing on enemy phase because enemies low enough for her to kill are likely running to the nearest enemy priest or unit with a healing item rather than attacking Lyre and she gets so little exp from nonkills anyway that Astrid only having player phase offense really isn't hurting her leveling prospects when we compare her to Lyre.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Right, I keep forgetting. Some other people on this site seem completely incapable of stopping units with less durability from getting attacked when we don't want them to be. I'm sorry. I'll try to remember this for next time. Forgive me.

Did you miss the part where Lyre can actually survive, whereas you can see Astrid can't? Being able to live>whatever the fuck Astrid does.

Astrid has 28 might with a silver bow in 3-11 assuming she never got a single str point. Astrid can attack almost anything and run back to a spot where she won't get attacked. When feeding kills to Lyre, I have to get the enemy down to a lower hp total than I do Astrid or else Lyre won't get the kill. Unless we somehow got Lyre S strike already or 3 str or 1 str and an energy drop. Lyre doubles, Astrid doesn't, well that just means that after I feed Lyre 3 kills I have to heal her rather than the people I'm actually letting be attacked. Now Lyre probably does more damage to some enemies than Astrid does in Astrid's one hit. Okay. But I never have to heal Astrid. Personally I don't see Lyre winning this. And come part 4 Astrid can use a silver forge and really hurt stuff in one hit.

You need the rank to wield silver bows, man. Astrid's got a B in bows, you need an A for silver.

Astrid might not need healing, but she needs walling and on top of that, her offense doesn't even begin to compensate. She's just some girl on a horse riding around. It's like a waste of time.

Speaking of frontlining, Lyre transformed with that bit of speed has about 60-30 displayed hit on her before bio and leadership is accounted for on her joining chapter. It gets better as her speed grows and her supports kick in.

Now, normally I'd complain about an archer's enemy phase causing slower leveling and stuff like that. But Lyre isn't killing on enemy phase because enemies low enough for her to kill are likely running to the nearest enemy priest or unit with a healing item rather than attacking Lyre and she gets so little exp from nonkills anyway that Astrid only having player phase offense really isn't hurting her leveling prospects when we compare her to Lyre.

The point is Lyre can bring the enemy to you, and you can attack them with others. Her weakening might not have healed much, but she brought the enemy to you and weakened them nonetheless. Astrid can't even do this, and even worse her chip damage is nowhere near enough to compensate as it's BARELY better at her strongest when Lyre's at her weakest.

With doubling, she can build up her strike faster, to help compensate for her low strength. Unlike Astrid, Lyre actually has time to build up this rank. Argue giving Astrid an Arms Scroll, I'll just give Lyre an Energy Drop.

Hell, Lyre can actually survive some things untransformed, while Astrid just gets murdered the moment 3-11 rolls around. Lyre has some durability, and Astrid has nothing to compensate for it.

[Interceptor]

Did you miss the part where Lyre can actually survive, whereas you can see Astrid can't? Being able to live>whatever the fuck Astrid does.

Same point as in Meg vs. Astrid: Lyre surviving means that she got hit. Getting hit, regardless of whether she's Rhys or she's Jesus, means that her crappy offense is slowing down your team, because whatever just attacked her is not going to attack Ike, or Titania, or Mia, or whoever. Point being is that Lyre's durability isn't as cool beans as you seem to think it is, since it comes with her crappy offense.

[grandjackal]

Same point as in Meg vs. Astrid: Lyre surviving means that she got hit. Getting hit, regardless of whether she's Rhys or she's Jesus, means that her crappy offense is slowing down your team, because whatever just attacked her is not going to attack Ike, or Titania, or Mia, or whoever. Point being is that Lyre's durability isn't as cool beans as you seem to think it is, since it comes with her crappy offense.

So Astrid riding around generally having worse offense is better? Astrid is literally a waste of space, no durability or offense. You can't seriously be saying Canto makes up for this? She is literally doing next to nothing aside from riding around! At least Lyre has time to improve.

Besides last I checked, I believe Meg was above Astrid..

[soundecho]

Pretty Wolf Boi, that 1.5 Blossom that Rage said was a joke comparison. Smash was like she'd suck even if blossom doubled her growths, so then Rage did her growths x1.5 to see how good she was.

[grandjackal]

So she did that just to generally fuck with me?

[Dat Nick]

Rather to fuck with Smash, but yeah, basically that.

[Narga_Rocks]

Did you miss the part where Lyre can actually survive, whereas you can see Astrid can't? Being able to live>whatever the fuck Astrid does.

What Int said, plus I'll talk about that later here.

You need the rank to wield silver bows, man. Astrid's got a B in bows, you need an A for silver.

So, 20 attacks with a steel bow, right? How long is 3-9? 10 turns? And she's around for 7 or so turns on 2-E. And I'm not deploying her on 2-3, but if I am then let's give her a mere 3 attacks there. Looks like I can count to 20. Hey, she gets A. (If I'm seriously using her in the game I'll deploy her in 2-3. When I'm not using her, her 3-11 doesn't matter.) Not to mention she is good in PoR and unlike smash's complaint about stat transfers, there is no longer random chance of getting the weapon transfer or not. His complaint about having to play the other game could still apply, but chances are any PoR game in which you actually used Astrid will have a high enough weapon level for her to get to A off the bat in this game (she needs a B and starts at D and has the entire game to do it, and if she promotes her bow automatically goes to C if it isn't already, which is already 40 points out of 60 in RD and she would now need just 7 attacks with a steel bow anyway). And level 20 isn't necessary for weapon levels either.

Either way, I don't see any issue with getting an A for 3-11.

Astrid might not need healing, but she needs walling and on top of that, her offense doesn't even begin to compensate. She's just some girl on a horse riding around. It's like a waste of time.

Speaking of frontlining, Lyre transformed with that bit of speed has about 60-30 displayed hit on her before bio and leadership is accounted for on her joining chapter. It gets better as her speed grows and her supports kick in.

The point is Lyre can bring the enemy to you, and you can attack them with others. Her weakening might not have healed much, but she brought the enemy to you and weakened them nonetheless. Astrid can't even do this, and even worse her chip damage is nowhere near enough to compensate as it's BARELY better at her strongest when Lyre's at her weakest.

So let's see, we have:

Ike, Gatrie, Haar, Mia w/ Ike support, Shinon w/ crossbow, Janaff and Ulki with the same range as Lyre and a better gauge. All of whom can take more attacks than Lyre and can actually do really good damage (except shinon, but at least it is better than Lyre's and 1-2 range and shinon has a crit rate) to enemies they don't kill and make it easier for anyone we are using to OHKO. Also, they can draw more than 2 a turn without losing all player phases grassing to prevent running out of gauge.

Yeah, I'm going to let Lyre draw the enemy on player phase. Now I'm wasting all my strong people's time bringing 3 enemies hp down to where others can kill them and there are still a bunch of other enemies that will be in range of my guys a few steps down the road so I am moving at about 4 steps per turn while preventing Lyre from taking on more than 3 guys. How does this use of Lyre even merit consideration?

By the way, when you kill everything that is in range of attacking Astrid, she doesn't need to be walled. This isn't part 1 where everyone is 2 or 3 RKOd so we can't move quickly or clear out 8 panels in front of us in a turn so weaklings need to be held back.

With doubling, she can build up her strike faster, to help compensate for her low strength. Unlike Astrid, Lyre actually has time to build up this rank. Argue giving Astrid an Arms Scroll, I'll just give Lyre an Energy Drop.

Lyre needs 35 doubles in 4 chapters and isn't even doubling everything. Plus if we don't want to heal her then the kills we are feeding her only give her 1 point, so we are looking at maybe 50 attacks. Which is over 10 per chapter. And if you seriously think that arms scroll = energy drop I don't even know what to say to that.

Hell, Lyre can actually survive some things untransformed, while Astrid just gets murdered the moment 3-11 rolls around. Lyre has some durability, and Astrid has nothing to compensate for it.

Lyre will ping untransformed. What a waste of an enemy phase. And why is Astrid getting attacked again?

Edited July 2, 2009 by Narga_Rocks