OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

I'm struggling to see why Zihark + Nolan > Hawks. Zihark has similar availability (only 3 more chapters), but Janaff and Ulki crush him statistically (Durability and offence. Not to mentioned mobility). Could someone explain to me why this is?

What happened to Boyd > Aran?

I disagree with Gatrie > Hawks, mostly for the same reasons Vykan gave.

I agree with Skrimir > Tanith.

Edited July 8, 2009 by kirsche

[Jaybee]

I'm struggling to see why Zihark + Nolan > Hawks. Zihark has similar availability (only 3 more chapters), but Janaff and Ulki crush him statistically (Durability and offence. Not to mentioned mobility). Could someone explain to me why this is?

It's probably because of how important Zihark and Nolan are to the DB in Part 1, 3-6 and 3-13. The hawks have raep stats, but they aren't as important to the GMs as Zihark and Nolan are to the DB.

What happened to Boyd > Aran?

Everyone is waiting for Smash to respond.

I disagree with Gatrie > Hawks, mostly for the same reasons Vykan gave.

Availability, no gauge problems and a very good condidate for a crown. Having uber HP, Str and Def while having nice Spd also helps.

I also agree. Tanith's pothole covering and flying doesn't make up for Skrimir's HP and power, along with a gauge that is second slowest (only dragons are slower, iirc).

[Narga_Rocks]

Wow this is going to be long and no one will read it all. Oh well, it was fun.

Now, without dumping 3/4 of our bexp into both hawks and giving them both satori signs (the signs aren't really an issue) Ulki clearly isn't killing much at a decent rate. He needs Adept and will still only have a 59.04% chance of pulling off a kill on things Gatrie doesn't need anything more than a forge to guarantee it. He can even get decent hit rates without a forge, but when you need something dead, Gatrie with a forge is better. Janaff isn't doing much better since he soon doesn't ORKO halbs, so that is approximately tied with not ORKOing Swordmasters.

Now, that 1/4 bexp we have left was likely all used up bexping people like Mia, Ike, Shinon when they capped things, Gatrie could've taken a bit to be 16/1 or 17/1 with more skl, lck, def or something. Neph if we are using her, Oscar if we use him, Soren or Rhys to get them some semblance of speed. Any time they got past 40 exp and we wanted a better level for better stats to make our lives easier it would cost a fair amount to bexp them, but if we didn't then some of their stats could be lower than we would want, like Ike's spd, Shinon's str, Mia's def and lck, Neph's Str and Def, Oscar's str, Soren's spd/def/hp, Ilyana's spd/lck, Rhys's spd. The point is, we might not even have 3/4 of the max bexp we can accumulate up to 3-8's base. So either Ulki or Janaff might be without Tear for a bit.

Gatrie at 15/1 and 15/2 (str, spd, def, using bexp to finish a level when he gets to ~80 in the base of 3-10 or before, which is ~820bexp, less than a fifth of what Janaff took, so if he is short of 80 it still won't cost nearly as much as Janaff's). The crown is not equivalent to anything you can give to the hawks but the satori signs, because no one uses the crown better than Gatrie, and there is no point bexping Ranulf to lvl 30 so he can use a sign instead of a hawk.

at 15/1: 49 hp, 29 str, 22 skl, 25 spd, 16.5 lck, 29 def, 16.75 res. 45 mt with a forged steel axe, 43 with steel greatlance

at 15/2: 49 hp, 30 str, 22 skl, 26 spd, 16.5 lck, 30 def, 16.75 res. 46 mt with a forged steel axe, 44 with steel greatlance

81/83 avo. or 40% to 60% hit rates against for most of the things that actually hurt him.

22% Luna on swordmasters, 39.16% Luna in at least one hit on Generals

Janaff transformed at base and level 30 with ~4350 bexp (hp, lck, str with resets, anything else is too hard or doesn't help as much) ~1/4 of our bexp

at 29: 57 hp, 32 str, 4 mag, 38 skl, 34 spd, 30 lck, 24 def, 16 res. 113 avo before supports, 40 mt until S strike.

at 30: 58 hp, 34 str, 4 mag, 38 skl, 34 spd, 31 lck, 24 def, 16 res. 114 avo before supports. 42 mt until S strike

16 cn/wt while transformed

56.44% Tear in at least one hit on anything he doesn't 2HKO, but with the str boost he now kills halbs for a bit and so only needs Tear on generals until 3-11.

Janaff needs to take a dracoshield to survive crossbows. Which is stupid because he only needs it for one enemy type and would still only have 2 hp left afterwards.

Ulki transformed at base and level 30 with ~8550 bexp(2 hp, 2 spd, 2 def with a lot of resets to avoid lck, anything else is too hard or doesn't help as much, and 2 hp, 2 spd, 1 lck, 1 def is far more likely without resetting) and the bexp is about half of what we accumulated and we should have been bexping people with stuff capped, like Ike and Shinon.

at 28: 59 hp, 28 str, 6 mag, 34 skl, 36 spd, 25 lck, 22 def, 20 res. 132 avo before supports, 36 mt until S strike

at 30: 61 hp, 28 str, 6 mag, 34 skl, 40 spd, 25 lck, 26 def, 20 res. 140 avo before supports.

20 cn/wt while transformed

64% Tear in at least one hit on anything he doesn't 2HKO

3 HP left after crossbow with resetting bexp levels until +1 def, 1 HP without resetting bexp levels if we are somewhat lucky.

The numbers that matter most are Janaff and Ulki's second because without bexp Ulki loses and Janaff ties offence.

Now, when they have enough gauge to attack swordmasters and not worry about untransforming they obviously beat Gatrie against swordmasters. Everything else Gatrie beats Ulki.

Ulki on the other hand needs an energy drop. We have two, because the first really should be on Jill or Nolan or Zihark (in that order). Heather is not getting us either bolting without an energy drop, and that and a silver dagger in 3-7 we can steal from the DB will make her actually able to help finish stuff off and be less of a waste of space when she is deployed for an entire chapter to steal a few things to make our lives better. Neph could use the strength, Oscar could use the strength, Ranulf might like it so he can ORKO warriors and snipers and do more to generals and he's forced, Shinon might like it so he doesn't need to be slowplayed as much to cap his 2nd tier str, Mordecai might like it if he has resolve because 38 mt doesn't ORKO as much as 42 mt does, Haar might like a drop so when we bexp him spd is tied for his 2nd highest growth instead of tied for 3rd, Mist could use it so she can finish more people's leftovers in order to keep enough spd to not be doubled by stuff. The point is, an energy drop is a huge investment in Ulki, and he might not even go to 4-E.

Oh yeah, about strike. They both have at least a 34% chance of OHKOing on the first hit, so on average they are taking 5 strike points for 3 enemies. Which means that to get 150 points Janaff needs to attack ~90 enemies that were not weakened already.

Since Ulki will have 40% OHKO he takes 8 strike points for 5 enemies. Which means he needs to attack ~94 enemies that were not weakened already.

Now, that's for SS, so for S Janaff needs ~42 enemies and Ulki needs ~44 enemies.

Now, for Ulki to not leave 36% of his opposition alive, he needs adept. Adept means his 3HKOd enemies die 87.04% of the time, which is pretty awesome, though it did require half our bexp. However, since IS decided to be annoying, that also means an increased chance of only getting one strike point for an enemy. If he Adepts on his first hit and Tears on his second, he gets just one point. I'm not calculating, but lets say he now needs 47 enemies. Not too bad really, but the 47 is a wild guess.

Stilll, this is just 11 enemies per map to reach S strike by the beginning of 3-E, or 12 for Ulki with Adept, which is easily doable if we mix them between enemy phase and player phase. With more enemy phase action they get it faster, but help us less on player phase when we might want them to kill stuff.

Celerity works both ways, and one of adept/tear/energy drop easily counters the crown. Gatrie does have 1-2 range, but the hawks nonetheless reach their targets much sooner, set up for vigors easier, can shove & run, ferry people (especially with savior) and a plethora of other things to counteract that as well.

2 levels of bonus exp plus adept still doesn't reach 100% ORKO on anything he doesn't 100% ORKO already. He needs an energy drop.

1-2 range is big at times. Ferrying people is really not so great in the high tiers. That's low tier work when they are forced. When they aren't, it is nice and all, but ferrying isn't necessary in 3-8 and 3-10 only needs one ferry to drop Gatrie (only Haar can) near the Purge priest for Heather to steal it and not die (Heather gets shade and 1-2 range, Gatrie gets provoke and 1 range). Enemies are spread out a bunch and a lot of them don't move, so in 3-10 there isn't any other need for ferrying. 3-11 has Tanith and Sigrun, so the hawks shouldn't waste their time, 3-E has Sigrun and mounted units are basically equivalent to fliers here for ferrying. Shove + canto can help sometimes, but is mostly self serving when we have at least 3 units on foot that can cover all our tanking/walling needs.

That's not really saying anything, especially since it leaves off the hawk's stat leads, or how much the impact of each lead is (the hawks can use their mobility as an excuse for about anything, be it avoiding bows, or being able to grass, etc).

In part 3 the hawk's stat leads are irrelevant against everything not a swordmaster, since we have hammers.

Massive leads? How about the fact that Ulki with wildheart has more base AS than some of your GM units have normally? Even a crowned Gatrie will run into doubling issues by part 4, while the hawks only run into doubling issues with... auras, and that's a maybe. They also have some of the hugest avo on the team (Ulki has something like a 132 base). Also, they give off nice supports (thunder and water).

Gatrie is so amazing in 3-2, 3-3, 3-5 that 4-E is barely relevant. If we aren't taking him to endgame, then his tanking ability is vastly more important than his offence in part 4, and if we are taking him to endgame he is only a few levels away from doubling things in 4-1 or 4-2, and by 4-E he can double everything that isn't a swordmaster, sniper, or warrior, of the normal units. Nasir or brave weapons can help make up for trouble with spirits, and deg isn't exactly worried about Ulki/Janaff either. Ulki and Janaff need to be hidden in 4-E-4 or cause no damage on enemy phase. Since they will never be getting much in the way of experience, they need lots of bexp to have any hope of getting past lvl ~33 (33 is already with a fair amount of bexp), and while that means Janaff can get to 56 mt with bexp and 150 attacks, Ulki is not likely to ever get str with bexp, meaning 50 mt is where he is going with an energy drop, 46 without. Not extremely useful for auras or even spirits (things love cover tiles). To get to a higher level without bexp, they need to fight untransformed, at which point they are just being virtually worthless for a few turns a map.

Oh, and rofl at Janaff (and Ulki to a lesser extent) not getting tear. If we can't give him a single level of BEXP for an >50% mastery, then I can't see how we can even give weapons to our units.

Um, Janaff doesn't take too much, but Ulki alone takes half of what we have up to 3-8. And any map in which Ulki doesn't have Tear is a map in which he is getting whipped by Gatrie offensively.

They can very well beat him by that margin if he doesn't get celerity, and I don't see why Gatrie claims a resource that is comparable to paragon in usefulness without assigning him a huge negative for that opportunity cost.

Doesn't really need celerity to be good.

Perhaps I was being too vague with my point. 34-36 AS is stupidly high, it's above many characters' third tier cap. As a result, they have virtually 0 concern with doubling or durability (massive avo along with 50 hp/20ish def), well except for crossbows I guess but nullify isn't that competed for.

They can't both have nullify, and as someone else pointed out there is Haar, and eventually Elincia, Tibarn, Naesala, Marcia, Jill, Dragons in 4-E-1 for the bolting sage.

The fact that I don't have to accomodate the hawks in that respect means I can focus on their other issues while using the same level of favoritism, or maybe offer a speedwing/crown/wtv to someone else.

Giving the 3-3 crown to not Gatrie is gimping our army. Speedwing shouldn't go to Gatrie anyway, and we shouldn't be bringing so many people with under 34 speed if we can't arrange for them all to have brave weapons anyway.

Thunder: def, avo

Water: atk, def

Light: def, hit

Gatrie's giving his bonuses out for longer, but once the hawks get going, their bonuses are easily superior overall.

Def can be big for some units that are borderline 2HKOd or 3HKOd to turn it into 3 or 4. Can be really useful at times. The atk from water might help, but then someone is restarting an A as a C and losing 1 def they could've had with Gatrie. There are enough enemies with various mt that it is bound to cause a decrease in the #HKO someone is facing against something. Getting a bit of an atk boost is not as important, because most 2HKOs don't become 3HKOs without it, and +7 or 8 avo isn't helping much unless the unit already has a bunch. Plus if we don't want to break our forges too quickly the +8 accuracy that only Gatrie gives can mean a character can use less accurate weapons to save forges. Their bonuses might be slightly superior, but with all things considered it isn't by a lot.

4450 isn't that much, you get ~50k in part 3 I believe. You've got to be kidding about the satori sign point, you have more of them available than you have decent non-royals. Check my Ulki vs Ike debate for more on that if you're not convinced.

The satori sign obviously goes to them. It doesn't matter how much bexp we get in part 3, though, considering if they don't take everything we have left in 3-8 they don't have Tear for a while where Gatrie is thus way better offensively.

You're not seeing the issue, namely that celerity is awesome on anyone. Put it on Ike and he can reach seize points sooner, and apply his ragnell awesomeness more easily. Put it on Haar and you've just shaved a couple turns in 4-P and the desert. Hell, even put it on a mediocre units and their performance gets a considerable boost from increased enemy phase.

I still don't think he needs it to be better, but considering that one of our best tanks can now keep up with Ike and Mia, who are both virtually unlimited at what they can take, and most other people that celerity can go to are not, including the Hawks, I don't see how he'd build enough negative out of getting celerity to not make up for the benefit. Even Haar has only 26 def and will actually die in enough hits. Gatrie can simply take a whole lot more.

Increased movement has a way of carrying advantages in every facet of a unit's performance. As mentioned above, the offensive benefits are obvious. Defensively, you can get away from targets easier to heal, or you can move further while taking a concoction to maintain your offensive output. Then there's its utility value in allowing a unit to be more flexible in creating walls, rescuing/shoving people, reaching enemies who put one of your frailer units in danger, etc.

We have physics for a reason. When we really need it, that is when we should be using Elincia's physic staff. We are unlikely to need it desperately enough frequently enough that it would break, so units won't need celerity to safely be healed. I probably shouldn't bother with the Celerity stuff considering I don't think he needs it, but the only people that should be creating walls are those we know will live, and since celerity will be breaking up some support pairings, I don't think it helps. Having half your wall able to go further than the other is only going to help in a few cases.

As for movement:

Gatrie's only chapters with move issues in part 3 are 3-4, and 3-7. In 3-4 he isn't too far behind since the left side ledge needs to be cleared of enemies. He isn't doing too bad there. In 3-7 he can move the same in the water as any other non mage foot soldiers (it costs him 3 just like Ike, etc, so unless he reaches shore they both only move 2). Plus, since the hawks are stupid as npc's, Ike needs to hang back for a bit to recruit them since they are too dumb to chase him, and so Gatrie can easily get ahead before Ike uses up Ulki and Janaff's movement to rescue/take/drop him to catch up. Once he gets on Zihark's island, he is pretty good where he is.

I'll give you that Ulki and Janaff are pretty much required to get Ike to card the black knight if he doesn't have 27 speed, but if he does have 27 speed then Ike can safely be attacked with just Mist next to Ike and Mist can always run away (3 mov vs. 2 mov and starts out of range already) and Haar alone can rescue Ike.

So, for the other chapters Gatrie's 6 move can easily get him into position to pull whatever enemies we want, and he doesn't really have to care about what he pulls because we can make him kill or cripple if we want him to, and if he is leaving cripples it is because others will kill them so he can move forward, and if we want him killing stuff then he can move forward because nothing is in his way. Now, since Gatrie doesn't have to worry about gauge he can kill stuff for us on player phase too.

Speaking of which, something that has been mostly ignored is transformation.

The hawks can transform on turn 3 with one grass use, or turn 1 with a stone. Either way, they aren't helping on turn 1 player phase and consuming a stone can't be done every map (we only have 8 uses before 4-P, and might want to use some in 2-2, 2-E, 3-4, Reyson, Ranulf after 3-4). Even if we don't use it on anyone anywhere, 8 uses just barely covers their 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E. Which means only 3 uses for one of 4-P/3, 4-1, 4-2, since we can't split skrimir's into parts easily, and Muarim's in 4-4 or 4-5. Really not a good idea.

So in any given chapter they are unlikely to use a stone. They might in some, but it can't be assumed. So unless we want them fighting untransformed, they are usually not helpful to us until turn 3, which is 2 whole turns of win for Gatrie, or 20% of those 10 turn maps.

It should be noted that on turn 3 the hawks have 30 gauge. They are much better than cats, capable of averaging a little over 3 enemies per turn if we want them using grass on 8 out of 10 turns, but we might not have enough for that. So, here's the proposal for using grass 8 times and using Reyson a lot. Keep in mind this means that each hawk uses an entire grass and more every map, and that means spending lots of money that could've gone to forges and other stuff, and we won't have enough in 3-8, anyway.

1P. grass 15.

2P. 23. shove or something (can alternate shoving in turn 2 with shoving in turn 1 and grassing in turn 2)

3P. 30 gauge. Attack, reyson, attack. 24 gauge.

3E. 3 enemies on enemy phase. 15 gauge.

4P. 11 gauge. grass. reyson, attack. 23.

4E. 3 enemies. 14 gauge.

5P. 10 gauge. grass. reyson. attack. 22.

5E. 3 enemies.

continue pattern.

10P. 5 gauge. attack. 2. reyson. attack, untransform.

no 10E cause it is over in 10.

Now, in 10 turns they used resyon every turn from 3 to 10, so 8 times.

Attacked 31 enemies (S strike by 3-10, yay), used grass 8 times, and attacked every player phase after 2.

Note that without Reyson all it does is move their attack on player phase to enemy phase so the average doesn't go up, it just makes them useless on player phase.

Keep in mind, this leaves no room for shoving, rescuing, etc if you like that type of thing, restricts reyson to them, ignores that reyson can't vigor all the time, etc.

Basically, they likely average around 2.5 enemies per turn (including player and enemy phase) if we want to allow them to do more things like rescue, shove, not use 8 grass, not always have to use reyson, etc. And any time we really want them to take on 6 or 7 enemies in one phase, we have to grass ahead for it and not let them do much for a couple of turns. Plus every time they are attacked by an enemy with range it is a waste of gauge and an enemy with more hp than if Gatrie had countered it.

Conversely, Gatrie is limited only by how often we heal him, which is easily doable while keeping Mist back from him 6 or 7 squares every player phase(she heals, he moves after). If we heal him even every three rounds, he will likely be able to safely average more than 3.1 enemies per turn, and certainly more than 2.5. If we reyson him every round he can attack two things on player phase, not just one, and we don't have to plan far in advance if we want him to be able to face 4 or 5 enemies in one enemy phase without him untransforming on us. If we don't reyson, he can actually attack something on that player phase because he isn't grassing. And if you are wondering about how they do for reyson use and player phase offence if we use canto to keep them away from enemy phase action, why did we dump so much exp into them and an energy drop for Ulki if we aren't having them make use of it on enemy phase? And even if that wasn't a problem, how would a couple of guys with no enemy phase action possibly beat Gatrie's amazing player + enemy phase?

Oh, and the hawks can't even carry Gatrie, Ranulf, Brom, and Janaff can't carry Ike. Also, neither can shove Gatrie, if you are interested. There might be others, but whatever.

The hawks have some advantages, but Gatrie wins out for more reliable tanking and offence. He 100% ORKOs a lot of things that Ulki doesn't, even with an energy drop Ulki will miss on halbs pretty soon, and although Janaff can ORKO things Gatrie can, the only things Gatrie doesn't are swordmasters and Generals. Swordmasters might actually hit Janaff, so he will have to worry about crossbows OHKOing him even with a dracoshield if he takes the slightest bit of damage.

Further, Gatrie can have a hammer. If we don't need that general dead, Gatrie can use something else, if we do need it dead, only Gatrie can give us a 100% ORKO (or Titania with a speedwing or Boyd with like 27+ str depending on the general, some even 30 won't OHKO), Janaff and Ulki can't. If we would like it dead, they might be better, but when push comes to shove (ie: need), its hammertime.

Finally, if we don't want our unit killing something because we are trying to raise our other units (we do have more than just 3 guys, afterall), Gatrie can pick up an iron lance or something similar and bring things down to <10 hp, only killing it 39% of the time with Luna. Janaff will 100% ORKO a bunch of things, and even generals he kills 56.44% of the time. Ulki is a little nicer in that regard since he doesn't ORKO halbs and warriors and snipers, but if you went and gave him an energy drop he might anyway, and if you didn't he has a mighty 64% chance of tearing it apart. Being able to weaken stuff for others is a part of utility too, and for that the Hawks have almost none. Which is a shame, because if they didn't kill at all they'd be better at that form of utility than anyone, since they don't even get more than 1 exp for killing stuff anyway.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

This is part of the reason why nothing ever gets done in tier lists.

There's too much shit going on. Just from where I brought up my suggestions for lower mid/low again (which was like 50 posts ago), we've had...

- Leanne brought up again

- Gatrie vs hawks (which is currently going on)

- Aran vs Boyd

- something about tanith and skrimir

And some other stuff.

And it doesn't seem like any changes have been made. Well, it looks like the only one made was Gatrie > hawks, which is still being argued so I have no idea why it was made.

And since it seems everyone is waiting for me about Aran vs Boyd, how is this even a debate? Boyd is like one of the worst GMs in part 3. Hell, he doesn't even clearly beat someone like Soren (who gets 2HKO'd but avoids counters, rather than Boyd who gets 3-4HKO'd but takes counters, which is kinda sad when you have people like Gatrie and Ike and Haar and Mordy and even Brom never dying, Titania who's 4-5HKO'd, Mia who gets 2-3HKO'd but can actually dodge crap, Oscar who gets 3-4HKO'd but can also actually dodge crap after his supports, Neph who's in the same boat as Boyd, and then we have Ranulf and the hawks just for fun). He beats, like, Rolf/Ilyana/Lyre/Lethe/Kyza in part 3. whoamg.

Aran is nowhere near getting that beatdown by his teammates. The only people he clearly loses to in part 1 are either only around for a few chapters (like 1-6 Tauroneo, or BK/Nailah. Compare this to the people like Gatrie who are beating him forever), or is named Volug. Sothe beats him for awhile but starts losing towards the end of part 1 and never catches up. Nolan's probably losing to him starting at 1-5 or so, then is probably tied in part 3 with Tarvos, and then wins part 4 (though since this is part 4, we can kinda just jump straight to a direct Aran and Boyd comparison, since Nolan probably beat Boyd too). Jill is even worse than Nolan (okay, she flies, but she generally loses concrete durability and str, and doesn't double reliably enough to make up for that). Zihark is debatable for part 1, probably loses part 3.

Boyd's part 4 isn't even significantly better than Aran's, since Boyd has some serious issues doubling himself (he needs a speedwing, or maybe even two, and at that point I could just go "hey look BEXP dump on Aran"), and Aran wins def, which is pretty sad considering no one really gives a shit about Aran's part 4.

Of course I'm expecting someone like int to come in and start trolling by saying "but boyd can killer axe or forge" or "but boyd beats Shinon" or something irrelevant and/or retarded while missing the main point about Boyd doing a lot worse in the GMs compared to Aran in the DB.

Hell, Boyd shouldn't even be in upper mid. why is one of our crappiest fighters in part 3 higher than the best healer the GMs have? Why is he above someone like Brom who is actually useful in part 2 and is comparable enough for the rest of the game (a lot more durability vs more att + requires less favoritism to double)? Why is he above someone like Skrimir, who's pretty much a laguz version of Boyd with more durability except he didn't have to deal with Boyd's lame part 3?

and while I'm looking at the tier list and talking about aran, obligatory "why is neph above aran"

[Interceptor]

Wow this is going to be long and no one will read it all.

I read it all. Christ on a crouton, I'm glad I'm not arguing against you on this point.

Oh well, it was fun.

This is the only thing that matters, ne?

This is part of the reason why nothing ever gets done in tier lists.

smash, nobody seems to care about this except you. Take a deep breath, count to ten. The joy is in the fight, not in the victory.

Of course I'm expecting someone like int to come in and start trolling by saying "but boyd can killer axe or forge" or "but boyd beats Shinon" or something irrelevant and/or retarded while missing the main point about Boyd doing a lot worse in the GMs compared to Aran in the DB.

Do... do you have any idea what the word "trolling" means? Also, have you ever heard of something called "irony"?

and while I'm looking at the tier list and talking about aran, obligatory "why is neph above aran"

It's because she better than he is, and we indicate that on tier lists by having the superior units up higher. Are there any other questions that I can help you with?

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh well, it was fun.

This is the only thing that matters, ne?

Yep. Why else would someone want to post on a forum? To get frustrated when people don't argree?

The joy is in the fight, not in the victory.

Yep.

Oh, and smash, Red Fox of Fire made the change before vykan took up the fight for the hawks. Since not responding would mean that Red Fox might put Gatrie back under the Hawks, responding seems like as good a thing to do as any. With the goal being fun I need something to talk about, and I'm more interested in Gatrie v. Hawks than Aran v. Boyd or Tanith v. Skrimir. Not to say I won't post on those things at all, but since I'm not currently interested it won't be as fun.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

smash, nobody seems to care about this except you. Take a deep breath, count to ten. The joy is in the fight, not in the victory.

Except I actually want something to come out of all the flaming and arguing done. Otherwise it's a waste of time.

Do... do you have any idea what the word "trolling" means? Also, have you ever heard of something called "irony"?

Well, according to the "definition" of trolling on gamefaqs, yes, you do troll a lot.

Messages intended solely to annoy and/or offend other users by going against the clear nature of a board, topic or chat room are not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to: provoking other users to respond with flames; provoking fans of a particular system or game, especially on boards or topics dedicated to that system or game; making misleading topic titles; asking obviously useless questions; posting false information as fact; and using another user’s quote in your signature without permission.

It's because she better than he is, and we indicate that on tier lists by having the superior units up higher. Are there any other questions that I can help you with?

obligatory "her performance in the GMs is worse than Aran's in the DB" counterargument

Oh, and smash, Red Fox of Fire made the change before vykan took up the fight for the hawks.

Ah.

[-Cynthia-]

Do... do you have any idea what the word "trolling" means?

He really doesn't. Here is Wikipedia's definition of a troll:

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

That sure sounds like somebody I know, but not Int or myself. Really, if you're going to complain about people you should state "disagreeing with Smash" as the offense, since that's your definition of trolling. It would fit in well with your egomaniacal tendencies anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, according to the "definition" of trolling on gamefaqs, yes, you do troll a lot.

Messages intended solely to annoy and/or offend other users by going against the clear nature of a board, topic or chat room are not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to: provoking other users to respond with flames; provoking fans of a particular system or game, especially on boards or topics dedicated to that system or game; making misleading topic titles; asking obviously useless questions; posting false information as fact; and using another user’s quote in your signature without permission.

*snort*

Not that I think either of you two care whether or not the other person uses your quote, but since I doubt that either asked for permission, aren't you a troll by the very definition you posted?

Note: I am not saying either of you are trolls, just saying that the definition you pulled out seems flawed. Find one that doesn't say you are a troll, too. This, by the way, is an example of that "irony" thing Int was talking about.

[Progenitus]

Not that I think either of you two care whether or not the other person uses your quote, but since I doubt that either asked for permission, aren't you a troll by the very definition you posted?

Note: I am not saying either of you are trolls, just saying that the definition you pulled out seems flawed. Find one that doesn't say you are a troll, too. This, by the way, is an example of that "irony" thing Int was talking about.

The difference between my trolling and int's trolling is that my trolling doesn't discredit what I say, since I'm not lying or twisting facts around or using horrible logic, and I don't waste everyone's time arguing with people just for the sake of arguing (I can pull out a few examples of where int started arguing with me just because he could, not because he actually believed in it or anything, simply because he wants to waste time).

I don't care who I piss off as long as I get the truth out.

He really doesn't. Here is Wikipedia's definition of a troll:

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

I love how Cynthia brings up a definition of trolling that's similar to the one I brought up and thinks he disproves me.

Edited July 8, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Interceptor]

Except I actually want something to come out of all the flaming and arguing done. Otherwise it's a waste of time.

Here we are, a bunch of nimrods on a niche Internet message board about a video game that came out almost two years ago, debating about the pedantic workings of its game mechanics, and arranging fictional characters in a "tier list" based on the arbitrary criteria of how well these imaginary friends help us beat a game in a mode that doesn't even get unlocked until you already beat the game. And here YOU are, expressing concern that by not arranging the characters in a speedier fashion, we're wasting our time.

The mind reels at the incongruity.

Well, according to the "definition" of trolling on gamefaqs, yes, you do troll a lot.

GameFAQs designed a system of sticks to keep Interbutts teenagers in line: they are hardly the Merriam-Webster's of internet lingo. Even still, you misinterpreted even their decidedly loose definition, since it clearly (in the first sentence) is referring to intent. Trolling is not, as Cynthia pointed out, a synonym for "people who say things that I disagree with".

obligatory "her performance in the GMs is worse than Aran's in the DB" counterargument

That's not a counter-argument, that's an assertion bracketed in quotation marks.

EDIT: can we be done with this navel-gazing and get back to tiering, plz?

Edited July 8, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

my trolling

Okay, I can't say anything to that. My previous post is made irrelevant.

Since I don't feel like responding to the rest of that, it's a good thing there is no reason for me to to it anyway since I'm sure Int doesn't need others to fight his battles so it's up to him if he wants to, ditto for -Cynthia- and her battles. (And it looks like Int decided to ignore that particular post)

Anyway, care to weigh in on Gatrie vs. Hawks? It seems you may have weighed in on Aran vs. Boyd just to humour everyone, so I thought I'd ask about Gatrie.

...And I worry Red Fox of Fire will be disappointed she only gets to read one post from you about Aran and Boyd and not much of a response from anyone about it. Sadly, I'm not much interested in two characters I barely use in both PoR and RD. At least I liked cats in PoR and wished they were more usable in RD, and liked Astrid in PoR and wished the same. Maybe someone else will make Aran v. Boyd more entertaining.

EDIT: can we be done with this navel-gazing and get back to tiering, plz?

Mia>Ulki, anyone?

Edited July 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Here we are, a bunch of nimrods on a niche Internet message board about a video game that came out almost two years ago, debating about the pedantic workings of its game mechanics, and arranging fictional characters in a "tier list" based on the arbitrary criteria of how well these imaginary friends help us beat a game in a mode that doesn't even get unlocked until you already beat the game. And here YOU are, expressing concern that by not arranging the characters in a speedier fashion, we're wasting our time.

The mind reels at the incongruity.

EVERYTHING in life is a waste of time if your scope is big enough. Are you trying to say otherwise?

GameFAQs designed a system of sticks to keep Interbutts teenagers in line: they are hardly the Merriam-Webster's of internet lingo. Even still, you misinterpreted even their decidedly loose definition, since it clearly (in the first sentence) is referring to intent. Trolling is not, as Cynthia pointed out, a synonym for "people who say things that I disagree with".

Funny, because their definition seems pretty close to what Cynthia pulled out, the only difference is taht the gamefaqs one had some examples of trolling.

Are you telling me things like "provoking other users to respond with flames" or "posting false information as fact" are not said with the "intent" of annoying other people, aka trolling?

That's not a counter-argument, that's an assertion bracketed in quotation marks.

The quotation marks was just short for *insert giant argument about blah blah blah*. use your imagination.

Anyway, care to weigh in on Gatrie vs. Hawks? It seems you may have weighed in on Aran vs. Boyd just to humour everyone, so I thought I'd ask about Gatrie.

I think Gatrie vs Hawks is very close. There's a lot of subjective factors to weigh and I personally think it's going to be a mess. I don't really want to get involved in it, especially since there are so many problems with the tier list (lower mid/low tier for starters) that this should have a low priority.

Actually, I think I said awhile back that most of the people in high tier are, as I believe, very close to each other in terms of usefulness (as in, I gave almost all of them a 9/10 in my ranking topic), so generally their actual order doesn't really bother me. The only real things I believe should happen in high tier are...

- Gatrie, Titania, and Shinon stick with each other.

- Zihark is above Nolan.

- Sothe is at the bottom. *Maybe* Mia below him. I personally think Mia should be about the same level as Oscar and Ranulf and Mordy, who are all in upper mid, but bringing all three into high tier will make it too cluttered, which makes me inclined to believe that Mia should move down instead.

Maybe someone else will make Aran v. Boyd more entertaining.

I'm pretty sure int will argue with me just because he can. I think Cynthia and dondon might too, again, just because they can.

Edited July 8, 2009 by smash fanatic

[-Cynthia-]

EVERYTHING in life is a waste of time if your scope is big enough. Are you trying to say otherwise?

Int's point is that this isn't time sensitive. Who cares if we move them now or later?

Funny, because their definition seems pretty close to what Cynthia pulled out, the only difference is taht the gamefaqs one had some examples of trolling.

Are you telling me things like "provoking other users to respond with flames" or "posting false information as fact" are not said with the "intent" of annoying other people, aka trolling?

Because you totally don't provoke other users via flames. LOL MIRITE?

Also, posting your opinions as fact is misinformation, because opinions aren't facts.

The quotation marks was just short for *insert giant argument about blah blah blah*. use your imagination.

That argument sure would be convincing if this were a list based off of your personal biases. However, since this list is measuring who is better (very different), you're going to have to come up with something better. People tend to argue with you because your biases rarely follow logic, not "just because they can".

Edited July 8, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

I think Gatrie vs Hawks is very close. There's a lot of subjective factors to weigh and I personally think it's going to be a mess. I don't really want to get involved in it

That's fine. Nobody has to give their opinion about everything.

Actually, I think I said awhile back that most of the people in high tier are, as I believe, very close to each other in terms of usefulness (as in, I gave almost all of them a 9/10 in my ranking topic), so generally their actual order doesn't really bother me. The only real things I believe should happen in high tier are...

- Gatrie, Titania, and Shinon stick with each other.

- Zihark is above Nolan.

- Sothe is at the bottom. *Maybe* Mia below him. I personally think Mia should be about the same level as Oscar and Ranulf and Mordy, who are all in upper mid, but bringing all three into high tier will make it too cluttered, which makes me inclined to believe that Mia should move down instead.

You know I disagree with your position on the Mia thing. And unless you give Mordy Resolve and an energy drop he doesn't hold a candle to Mia (still doesn't come close even with it all). Ranulf doesn't have a prayer and Oscar needs to not give his Earth to anyone else but Ike to match Mia's durability, and will never approach her offence regardless. If Oscar gives his earth to someone else, we could have 4 people with boosted avoid, not just 2. And while that is better for the army, it means Oscar falls far short of Mia's avoid, and his concrete durability isn't better than her's by nearly enough to make up for it.

Mia can easily kill 3 or 4 enemies per turn (between player and enemy phase), Shinon gets 1 max. With vigoring, Mia gets anywhere from 3 to 5, Shinon gets 2 max. Shinon has nice concrete durability he should never actually exercise, Mia might dodge till the end of time with Earth and there is actually a point in letting her try because of her rockin' enemy phase.

The idea that Mia should be lower than she is now is ludicrous.

I'm pretty sure int will argue with me just because he can. I think Cynthia and dondon might too, again, just because they can.

Since he hasn't yet, it seems less likely than I initially thought. Cynthia seems stuck on the troll thing, though I'd recommend she stops attempting to prove you are a troll since you already said you do sometimes. And dondon doesn't appear to be on right now, so it could be a while.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Int's point is that this isn't time sensitive. Who cares if we move them now or later?

Well, you see, the whole reason why we're debating this crap is because we think of this as entertainment. There's really no other reason why we're doing this.

MY form of entertainment when it comes to debating tiers is that something actually gets done. While you may think like int, where arguing is the fun part and not the actual agreement, I think otherwise. Are you going to argue with me about how I have my fun?

Because you totally don't provoke other users via flames. LOL MIRITE?

Because Cynthia totally doesn't know how to read. LOLMIRITE

Oh wait, I am right.

The difference between my trolling and int's trolling is that my trolling doesn't discredit what I say, since I'm not lying or twisting facts around or using horrible logic, and I don't waste everyone's time arguing with people just for the sake of arguing (I can pull out a few examples of where int started arguing with me just because he could, not because he actually believed in it or anything, simply because he wants to waste time).

I don't care who I piss off as long as I get the truth out.

Also, posting your opinions as fact is misinformation, because opinions aren't facts.

Everything in tier lists is opinion. "Does unit X's better offense beat out unit Y's better defense? Does unit A's availability beat out unit B winning when they both exist? Does unit N's win in this part of the game beat out unit M's win in this part of the game?"

So I have no clue why you're harping about me posting my "opinions" when everyone is doing that.

The difference between me and half the people in this topic, like you, is that I defend my opinion with actual facts, and then apply some semblance of logic to defend my opinion.

That argument sure would be convincing if this were a list based off of your personal biaes. However, since this list is measuring who is better (very different), you're going to have to come up with something better.

Ah, a stab in the dark. I should've expected that from lolcynthia, since it's the only thing you can do.

I can just direct you to the thousands of posts on gamefaqs about aran vs neph if you want my take. I thought everyone would know about that by now. Or, do you actually want to try me?

You know I disagree with your position on the Mia thing. And unless you give Mordy Resolve and an energy drop he doesn't hold a candle to Mia (still doesn't come close even with it all).

wut? Energy drop? Why would he even need that? He has more att than Mia. Mia doesn't even come close to Mordy's base att until she's almost promoting. Resolve is the only thing he really needs.

And even without resolve, he has a ton more durability than Mia, with more move, and superior affinity (versus Mia's other subjective factors like not having a transformation gauge). And if Mordy isn't even a candidate for resolve, I want to know how Mia is going to get things like Adept.

Ranulf doesn't have a prayer

Why not?

and Oscar needs to not give his Earth to anyone else but Ike to come close to Mia's durability, and will never approach her offence regardless. If Oscar gives his earth to someone else, we could have 4 people with boosted avoid, not just 2. And while that is better for the army, it means Oscar falls far short of Mia's avoid, and his concrete durability isn't better than her's by nearly enough to make up for it.

lolwut, Oscar loses durability to Mia?

Did you forget that Mia doesn't get any avoid from her support while Oscar does? Or the fact that Oscar starts off with 4 more HP AND def than Mia? even if Mia has the better growths in those two areas, it takes awhile for her to catch up. And Oscar even wins res.

There's also no mention of Oscar's canto, which is still a very huge thing.

He loses offense, but that's only one aspect. Oscar wins in like everything else.

Mia can easily kill 3 or 4 enemies per turn (between player and enemy), Shinon gets 1. With vigoring, Mia gets anywhere from 3 to 5, Shinon gets 2. Shinon has nice concrete durability he should never actually exercise, Mia might dodge till the end of time with Earth and there is actually a point in letting her try because of her rockin' enemy phase.

3 or 4? Mia isn't one rounding, you know. And she isn't dodging without an earth support, and there's only two available, one of them being (wait for it) Oscar, and the other being Ike, who really doesn't give a shit who he's supporting, and thus specifying Mia as Ike's support is favoritism.

Edited July 8, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Interceptor]

EVERYTHING in life is a waste of time if your scope is big enough.

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said. This thread lost six months worth of arguments and it didn't even matter, the damage to the rankings were mostly repaired and we got right back into what tier list threads are good for, which is arguing about meaningless things. Your grousing about the speed of ranking is grousing that you are doing alone.

Are you telling me things like "provoking other users to respond with flames" or "posting false information as fact" are not said with the "intent" of annoying other people, aka trolling?

The implication here is that you've elected yourself the arbiter of The Truth<tm>. In your worldview, someone who says something that you think is wrong, is trolling. The intent of the GFAQs example is to capture the Enfant Provocateur who thinks it's amusing to intentionally post misleading information. Your interpretation of this, is that if someone says that "Nephenee is not the worst fighter in Part 2", that person is trollng, because your logical construct disagrees with it.

That is egomaniacial, sir.

The quotation marks was just short for *insert giant argument about blah blah blah*. use your imagination.

I don't need to use my imagination, this argument has been already been beaten into dust. I was referring to how if you want to move people around, you should probably make a real argument.

- Sothe is at the bottom. *Maybe* Mia below him. I personally think Mia should be about the same level as Oscar and Ranulf and Mordy, who are all in upper mid, but bringing all three into high tier will make it too cluttered, which makes me inclined to believe that Mia should move down instead.

Mia is not on the same level as Oscar, Ranulf, and Mordy. This is why tier seperations exist. She has some of the best offense in the GMs, with nothing but a critforge, and throwing resources into the mix to bring other people up to par or above her offensively (Speedwings, Crown, Drop, etc) have the effect of giving her enough resources to make herself nigh-invincible on the durability front. Etc.

[Colonel M]

Oscar sucks because he rarely doubles. Mia does not suck period.

But I say Nephenee is close to sucking but passing in some way.

Actually I can agree with Mia > Ulki or even over the hawks. Might be worth fighting for.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

Oscar sucks because he rarely doubles. Mia does not suck period.

But I say Nephenee is close to sucking but passing in some way.

As I say repeatedly: Nephenee is basically Mia Lite<tm>. She has enough problems that she should be in the same tier as Oscar.

Actually I can agree with Mia > Ulki or even over the hawks. Might be worth fighting for.

It's worth fighting for if it's a good argument, otherwise it's not. I'm getting a little weary of High tier stuff.

[Progenitus]

If anyone wants to do something like Mia vs Oscar/Ranulf/Mordy (or even Shinon/hawks) I wouldn't mind if we made an "official" debate topic about it on the debate board. I won't accept if it's cynthia or dondon though (int too, but he said he doesn't like debate topics anyway).

[Narga_Rocks]

Oscar sucks because he rarely doubles. Mia does not suck period.

Actually I can agree with Mia > Ulki or even over the hawks. Might be worth fighting for.

Mia > Janaff is harder to argue than Mia > Ulki. I think she is better because of Janaff's gauge and a couple of other things, but it is harder to argue Mia > Janaff than Gatrie > Janaff or Mia > Ulki.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

I always thought Hawks were treated as a pair, but Mia > Ulki seems likely. I dunno how great of an argument I can whip out, but give me a second on it.

Though I bet Narga might do it a tad bit better than I because I haven't played this game as much as he has.

As I say repeatedly: Nephenee is basically Mia Lite<tm>. She has enough problems that she should be in the same tier as Oscar.

Not saying you're doing this, but I do find her a tad overrated.

But not as much as smash overrates Aran. >_>

Edited July 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

If anyone wants to do something like Mia vs Oscar/Ranulf/Mordy (or even Shinon/hawks) I wouldn't mind if we made an "official" debate topic about it on the debate board. I won't accept if it's cynthia or dondon though (int too, but he said he doesn't like debate topics anyway).

Were you not paying attention when Mekkah clearly said that offical debates don't actually solve anything due to debater bias (the debaters are not expected to look at the situation objectively). If you want a debate for debate's sake use that forum, if you want to move a character up in the tier list don't use an offical debate to do it.

[Narga_Rocks]

I always thought Hawks were treated as a pair, but Mia > Ulki seems likely. I dunno how great of an argument I can whip out, but give me a second on it.

They are kinda pairlike, but Janaff with bexp has Tear and 42 mt, Ulki with almost twice as much has Tear and 36 mt. He activates Tear more, but Janaff only needs it on a couple of halbs and all generals. Ulki needs to take an energy drop that a lot of people can also use pretty well, and even then only has 40 mt and there are a lot of halbs for which that isn't enough.

I like Ulki, because he has a much better avo and has a shot at more def if you reload his bexp levels. The problem is that the limiting factor of the hawks is not their durability, but their gauge. Janaff has enough durability that he can take as much as his gauge allows him, normally, so if he needs to be healed once or twice more than Ulki does, oh well, because Janaff has better mt.

I also like Ulki because if I don't give him lvl 30 (Tear) or an energy drop he drops a lot of things down to OHKO range for everyone else I'm using and Janaff kills too much. The trouble for Ulki is that people rate offence higher than that type of utility, so all in all Ulki and Janaff aren't so close that it is impossible for anything to come between them.

[Interceptor]

Not saying you're doing this, but I do find her a tad overrated.

I don't disagree with you, Mia is one of a host of characters that people tend to over-rate (Nephenee, Eddie, Ilyana, Nolan, Soren, Shinon, etc are her peers here). That does not mean that she is over-rated on the tier list (she is underrated), or that the fanboys don't have a nugget of truth in their drooling admiration of her martial skills.

It's quite possible, and not difficult in the least, to make the argument that Mia is objectively one the better units in the game in Hard Mode, kept from being the best only by a few flaws of varying importance (1-2 options, need for resources, earlygame, etc).