OMG it's a tier list

_____ · August 10, 2009

But how can you even take Coins into account? How can you assign a bonus to a weapon when you have no idea if you will even get a bonus, let alone the one you want? Take this completely hypothetical situation.

Let's say we draw a +3 MT when forging an Axe with max MT for a unit that will have enough offense with it. We reset and give it to Lucia with a full MT Sword forge. She is now ORKOing. Everything is great, right?

Not really. First of all, we have no idea if we will ever get a +3 MT card on any forge, since it's random. Second of all, how do you weigh this? By giving Lucia a +8 MT forge, do we have to give, say, Soren the same thing? It's just too complicated.

Narga_Rocks · August 10, 2009

But how can you even take Coins into account? How can you assign a bonus to a weapon when you have no idea if you will even get a bonus, let alone the one you want? Take this completely hypothetical situation.

Let's say we draw a +3 MT when forging an Axe with max MT for a unit that will have enough offense with it. We reset and give it to Lucia with a full MT Sword forge. She is now ORKOing. Everything is great, right?

Not really. First of all, we have no idea if we will ever get a +3 MT card on any forge, since it's random. Second of all, how do you weigh this? By giving Lucia a +8 MT forge, do we have to give, say, Soren the same thing? It's just too complicated.

Well, that's why I was just saying +1 MT. I mean sure, we can get better stuff, but we never really know what we'll get. But we can be rather certain that everyone can get something. It just seems odd to me that since we don't know how good it's going to be that we assume we get nothing. It almost seems like giving a stat booster to nobody, or not giving out the crowns at all. The not reloading argument is really the best I can see for why we don't. If it wasn't for vine and raven cards, I'd still not like that argument because something good will happen.

I think I'll just leave this and choose to accept the not reloading argument, because I don't think I can accept anything else.

But I still don't like treating hidden coins as if they are not worth picking up, because even with not reloading the chance of getting something is better than no chance of getting something. It isn't as if there are any negative cards. Although it does mean we likely need fewer coins.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

_____ · August 10, 2009

Say the Vine and Raven cards don't exist. What if we end up just getting Wings? That will help basically no one.

I'm just saying that it's too random to take into account, even if Vine and Raven cards didn't exist.

Narga_Rocks · August 10, 2009

Say the Vine and Raven cards don't exist. What if we end up just getting Wings? That will help basically no one.

I'm just saying that it's too random to take into account, even if Vine and Raven cards didn't exist.

Well, they do exist so it doesn't really matter. Although wings cards are great on swordmasters. Well, the 6 wings card, anyway. Nothing like a 14 mt 25 crit sword for a swordmaster. Or 17 mt 25 crit for part 4. Well, 18 mt 20 crit might be better at times, or 15 mt 20 crit in part 3. Still, none of the cards are useless. Except vine and raven (though raven is obviously awesome if you allow reloading). But yeah, if you are forging an axe for Gatrie then crit isn't helping him, and if you pay for enough hit then more hit isn't helping either and at that point there aren't too many cards helping, just the ones that give mt or mt and something else and it becomes less likely. That's why for me it all comes down to the reloading or not reloading issue. We just get so many coins that you probably will have +mt for almost everyone at one point or another if you allow reloading.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

Interceptor · August 10, 2009

I don't think that everyone would be getting +1mt even if you did map out your cards. They are pretty common, but there are a finite number of coins that you are likely to pick up, and a lot of people who might want the boost. If we had data on the likelyhood of a specific card showing up, that'd be one thing, but that's a pretty difficult task to accomplish, given how they work.

Narga_Rocks · August 10, 2009

I don't think that everyone would be getting +1mt even if you did map out your cards. They are pretty common, but there are a finite number of coins that you are likely to pick up, and a lot of people who might want the boost. If we had data on the likelyhood of a specific card showing up, that'd be one thing, but that's a pretty difficult task to accomplish, given how they work.

I think it's a rather impossible task. I have a feeling the list is determined at the time the file is created. That makes it a very very long process. It is remotely possible that the part 3 list (if a new list) is generated after 2-E, but I doubt it. Anyway, I'm not saying everyone will get a sword card, just that everyone can have something that gets at least +1, so we might as well assume they can get it in part 4. Then again, without a transfer a player might use coins sporatically throughout part 3 and not have very many left for part 4, so that could be an issue. It just irks me that a resource is completely ruled out because of its unpredictable nature, is all. These things make for some epic items, and it seems a shame that no tier list unit ever gets to hold onto one of these things.

Florete · August 10, 2009

I actually have data on the likelihood of cards. One of the few good things my Prima guide did. Here's what it gives:

Sword (+1 MT): 15%

Axe (+2 MT): 10%

Dual Sword (+3 MT): 2%

Arrow (+10 HIT): 25%

Triple Arrow (+20 HIT): 4%

Feather (+5 Crit): 10%

Seraph Feather (+10 Crit): 2%

Soldier (+1 MT, +10 HIT): 3%

Knight (+1 MT, +5 Crit): 3%

Goddess (+1 MT, +10 HIT, +5 Crit): 1%

Raven (4 Coins): 5%

Vine (Nothing): 20%

EDIT: In order of likelihood

Arrow

Vine

Sword

Axe/Feather

Raven

Triple Arrow

Soldier/Knight

Dual Sword/Seraph Feather

Goddess

Edited August 10, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

Interceptor · August 10, 2009

You need to walk before you can run. Transfers are much easier to figure out, but those aren't included seriously either. Before trying to unravel the yarnball of forge coins, maybe you could try to work in some fruit that's hanging lower on the tree, so to speak.

EDIT: oh, well if there are definite percentages, that's something that's easier to work with. We can get a general idea of how many coins someone would have, and come up with a figure for a specific outcome.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Interceptor

Narga_Rocks · August 10, 2009

According to that we are only looking at a 34% chance of something giving +MT. If it was >50 I'd say it's something to consider, but unfortunately we are still basically left with a question of to reload or not to reload. In an average game you are looking at only a third of the cards pulling a +mt so only a third of the forges with coins will have it if you don't reload. As for the rest, a swordmaster can get a useful card more often with the crit boosts, and anyone else you are giving a critforge to will also have a 46% chance of getting something good. Otherwise, the hit boost is too uncommon to not forge with hit if you are afraid the recipient will miss and the raven and vine mean 25% of the time the coin is worthless (without reloads). We could calculate expected bonus to mt, hit, crit but that's a bunch of decimals and only hit is likely to be >1, but still not even 5. So an "average" coin would be pretty much worthless.

Sadly, if we aren't including reloads I don't think I'd be able to convince anyone to seriously consider cards.

Jaybee · August 10, 2009

Abit of a repost...

Any reason on Calill > Soren? Soren has a large availability lead over Soren. And since 2-E is a joke (wall, wall and wall), Calill doesn't do very well there, but Soren can do reasonable chip damage since he targets Res.

Screw this, Calill is comparable, but Soren's availability lead beats her out easily.

charmander6000 · August 10, 2009

I agree with Soren > Calill. Calill only wins once she can double which won't happen regularly until 4-3/4/5 unless she has Rexflame which then means she'll only double 7 units (and needs to get to SS magic first) before 4-E-3. I think this is a case where availability wins.

Florete · August 10, 2009

Abit of a repost...

Any reason on Calill > Soren? Soren has a large availability lead over Soren. And since 2-E is a joke (wall, wall and wall), Calill doesn't do very well there, but Soren can do reasonable chip damage since he targets Res.

Screw this, Calill is comparable, but Soren's availability lead beats her out easily.

2-E has ledges for her to attack over, and there are a lot of enemies. She can definitely be a help there. Then there's 3-9, where everyone has lost the ability to double unless Marcia got lucky, and so all the extra damage counts. She'll also use Paragon here.

Availability only means something if you're good for it. Rolf is the only character Soren really beats. Soren never doubles, is alwayd 2HKOd, and can also face existing critical rates. He even misses 2RKOs on some enemies. He's BEXPable, but it won't really save him, because he needs a lot and his tier 2 cap is only 23 anyway, so even if he can reach it, he'll still have doubling issues unless you promote him fast, but that will require a lot of favoritism.

Granted, Calill is worse than him when she joins in 3-11, but she grows better than him as soon as promotion/part 4. She makes a good partner for Marcia or Tanith (Tanith being her preferable option), grows better avoid to help with the durability, and can get to doubling Spd, as well as having a much better Endgame due to Rexflame.

It's close, but I see Calill as better. It's like during the time both are bad/mediocre is when Soren wins, but Soren just kind of stays there while Calill becomes good, and going from bad -> good is better than going from bad -> mediocre.

Florete · August 10, 2009

I'm going to propose Fiona > Lyre.

Now, both of these units are absolutely terrible with just their base stats, so we'd be foolish to compare them like that since no one would actually use them like that. They need help, so we just need to see what they need and how it helps them. I'll start with Fiona.

I'm going to give Fiona a max Hit, -2 WT, and +3 MT Iron forge, and also a Seraph Robe. So this is what she has:

HP: 32

Atk: 18

AS: 10

Avoid: 27

Def: 8

Res: 6

She'll still be 1-2 rounded by most of the map, but Myrmidons, a few Armor Knights, and Mages no longer 2HKO her. If she gets a level up (give her enough BEXP so she can get one in her first battle), she can likely gain some Spd and Def. The Spd gets 8 of the enemies to stop doubling her, and the Def stops her from being 2HKOd by all but 7 enemies on the map, so her durability has increased substantially.

Offensively, she'll need to be fed kills. But this isn't too tough. At least, it's easier for her than it is for Lyre, since DB units generally have a harder time ORKOing. Like, Volug's 25 atk often leaves units in kill range for her, and 131 Hit sees 85+ displayed hit on everything at neutral biorythm.

So now that we have that in mind, let's jump to Lyre for a bit. I already looked at her performance before, so I'll repost that now.

She's terrible. She has the same Str transformed as Ranulf has untransformed, and only +1 Def. She has 22 base atk, which is the same as base Mist w/Florete. She can't even double much of anything, which hurts her Strike experience a lot, and has a very hard time gaining experience because of her stupid gauge and crappy durability. Oh, and she tinks Generals.

But we can give her an Energy Drop, right? Now she's a 5HKO on Warriors, 6HKO on Halberdiers, 4HKO on Swordmasters, 3HKO on freakin' Sages, 4-5HKO on Snipers, 8-9HKO on Dragonmasters, and rofl20HKO on 24 Def Generals. Oh, but she doubles Generals, so it's a 10RKO. All this with an Energy Drop. Give her BEXP for some Spd (since 35% Str is going nowhere for now)? Cut those numbers in half and make it R, so she 3RKOs Warriors and Halberdiers, still doesn't double Swordmasters, and 2-3RKOs Snipers.

So that's an idea of what Lyre needs. Also recall that Lyre cannot get increased offense like Fiona can get forges without consuming more valuable resources (aka the Energy Drop) and lacks Canto as well. Fiona also has innate Savior and Imbue, helping her durability and allowing her to save others in need without penalty, but that'll only come into play in late part 3 or early part 4. Still, it's worth noting.

And then part 4 and Endgame Fiona clearly wins. I'll assume both got Paragon for at least a few maps and both, obviously, are going to endgame. Also, I'll only give them the bonuses from their own affinities for now, since it's arguable who they'll support.

Fiona, level 20/20/6, Silver Lance forge (+10 Hit, +2 MT)/Steel Bow forge (same)

HP: 50.25

Atk: 41/38

AS: 29

Avoid: 112

Def: 28

Res: 24.5

Canto, Imbue, Savior, Sol, the works.

Lyre, level 28, SS Strike

HP: 52.5

Atk: 38

AS: 36-38

Avoid: ~120

Def: 20

Res: 24

So except for the AS lead, Fiona wins or practically ties in everything (If Fiona supports into avoid, like Jill/Volug/Zihark/etc., the avoid gap closes). Spd just happens to be her highest growth, so she'll be doubling more reliably fast enough, she's more durable, and she's providing better support for someone else. Plus, she has access to range and doesn't have to eat a Laguz Gem to stay transformed. And it arguably took just as much to get them here.

Narga_Rocks · August 10, 2009

2-E has ledges for her to attack over, and there are a lot of enemies. She can definitely be a help there. Then there's 3-9, where everyone has lost the ability to double unless Marcia got lucky, and so all the extra damage counts. She'll also use Paragon here.

Availability only means something if you're good for it. Rolf is the only character Soren really beats. Soren never doubles, is alwayd 2HKOd, and can also face existing critical rates. He even misses 2RKOs on some enemies. He's BEXPable, but it won't really save him, because he needs a lot and his tier 2 cap is only 23 anyway, so even if he can reach it, he'll still have doubling issues unless you promote him fast, but that will require a lot of favoritism.

Granted, Calill is worse than him when she joins in 3-11, but she grows better than him as soon as promotion/part 4. She makes a good partner for Marcia or Tanith (Tanith being her preferable option), grows better avoid to help with the durability, and can get to doubling Spd, as well as having a much better Endgame due to Rexflame.

It's close, but I see Calill as better. It's like during the time both are bad/mediocre is when Soren wins, but Soren just kind of stays there while Calill becomes good, and going from bad -> good is better than going from bad -> mediocre.

Well, I agree Calill > Soren, but I'll try to put as much information for both sides and let others disagree or state what they think it means.

I guess I'll look into Fiona and Lyre too, although if you convince enough people I kinda feel bad for Pretty Boi Wolf since he likes cats so much and I told him at least Lyre isn't actually being called the worst unit.

@all

I'm hoping Red Fox of Fire won't change it anyway, since she currently sees Calill > Soren and others do as well (I think). But I might as well look into this.

First, what levels are reasonable for 4-E-1? Calill needs 20/6 or 20/7 to double almost everything in 4-E-1. Soren needs 20/15 or 20/16 for the same task (even Ike/Mia aren't likely reaching that level this early, and they are/can be awesome on enemy phase). Calill needs 20/10 (usually) or 20/11 to double all but warriors and swordmasters in 4-E-2. This is all without Rexflame. She should have S Fire by promotion. Arcfire is worth 4 points and elfire 2, so to get 70 she's looking at 35 elfires or 18 arcfires, or some combination thereof in 2-E, 3-9, 3-11, 3-E, and 4-P/1/2, since promotion likely occurs around the end of 4-P/1/2 or in 4-3/4/5. It should be noted that if you have any clear data from PoR with a living recruited Calill, she starts with S fire on the transfer. Even if nobody is level 20, the weapon exp bonus still occurs. Not everyone has one, but it isn't like most people have to actually play PoR to get this. Anyway, it isn't too hard for some combination of elfire and arcfire (can buy in 4-P) to get there. Even if it is, not many units need discipline in part 4 and any arms scrolls could also be used. Either way, that leaves 80 wexp to reach SS. Bolganone gives 5 points, so 16 uses of bolganone and she has SS. I don't really see an issue getting SS by 4-E-2, and she can then double some things more easily. It's a short chapter anyway, so being limited to 7 attacks isn't a problem.

Now for part 3:

So, Soren is basically 2 rounded throughout all of part 3. Enemies like sages obviously don't, but they are in the minority. On top of that, anything that even 3HKOs him just needs a crit. So basically halbs and swordmasters and snipers all have the potential to just blick him away for his entire life. So, his enemy phase action is not very common, since you first need to find a way to make him attacked by precisely one unit, then you have to make sure that unit doesn't have crit. Eventually you get Daunt (3-8) and if you keep him near the daunt user or simply give him daunt then you are looking at safety from halb crits, but snipers and swordmasters are still an issue. Heck, for a while swordmasters 2HKO him and double. Eventually it will be a better situation for him, but not for a while. Anyway, his part 3 usage is basically potshots and finishing kills. It is no harder to stop him from being attacked than it is to prevent Ilyana from getting attacked, and that's pretty easy. Still, there will be times where it can occasionally cause a restriction in tactics. Offensively, he starts part 3 with elwind, so 29 mt. This 2HKOs everything but halbs, generals, and mages. But we have lots of less squishy units that can do that in 3-P and 3-1, many of whom can actually 2 round halbs and mages as well, or even one round mages. Many can also 3 round generals just like Soren, though some 4 round instead. Anyway, in 5 levels he'll have 27 mag, and after 3-2 he can have a fire forge if Ilyana carts one over. I don't remember when fire forges next become available, but it isn't 3-2. So let's call it max mt and give him 38 mt for it and a B support. Some time around 3-5. So now he's still squishy but 2HKOs everything instead of 3 rounding some things. Elfire does this for him (even on most sages), too, at 35 mt, so I guess it should be noted that he isn't dependent on that forge. Still, he's either finishing kills or giving chip shots.

It really depends on how much you dislike squishiness and how highly you rate extra damage that often isn't needed. Really, his offence isn't exactly better than anyone's and is worse than many, and in addition to this he needs to be used in limited tactical situations. Really, anyone who goes for the whole negative utility thing shouldn't give him any more than neutral or slightly positive for his part 3. Too much of a liability, not giving anything special to make up for it. Not to mention he eventually must have that forge for some 2RKOs, and against sages and bishops (though rare) around 3-8 he's looking at 3RKOing some.

Then Calill waltzes in for 3-11. Beforehand she does fine in 2-E. Helps kill things so if you want to clear out the armors in the east or the stuff in the west either way she can assist. Space is limited and there is no contesting for slots, so she isn't preventing a less squishy unit from being deployed by doing this (of course, in 3-P, 3-1, 3-2, 3-5 neither is Soren, though it's far easier to protect Calill in 2-E while having almost unrestricted offence than it is Soren in anything but 3-5). In 3-9, it's a little more dangerous to use her, but since nobody is one rounding anyway it's fine having her stand behind someone tanking and finish kills or make potshots. Neutral or better. Back to 3-11, a level ~10 Calill has 20/8 mt but needs to be using elfire to build strike, or a forged fire could work as well. Still, she's looking at a possible C support coming out of 2-E and 3-9, so 29 mt is not impossible even with elfire. Basically 3RKOing stuff except generals and sages. So not as good as Soren, obviously. She can finish a fair number of kills but not all of them, however she is not having his issues with halbs being able to critblick him. There's like 3 here and 6 in 3-E, not too big a deal, but it's there. Anyway, since there are more things he can finish off than she can he should likely win for this chapter. Same with 3-E.

As for crowns, it depends on what level he is. He was likely able to start getting cheap bexp in 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11. That's 4 times where he could skew his stats a bit but it only boosts him by 5.6 points over what he would've had. Still, it's probably going into hp, lck, spd. This also means he could drop in def a bit. Then there is the possibility of crowning. You can have a fair number of crowns by 3-11, but he isn't exactly doritos here so he's not guaranteed. Still, what level does anyone see him promoting at if he gets a crown? A level 15 Soren with 2 extra hp, spd, +2.5 lck, and 1 less str/def would become a modified 15/1. If you don't like level 15, consider that he took 10 levels in 8 chapters while stealing kills and making chip shots with almost no enemy phase action. He might have gotten more, but that just means more fed kills. I'm actually not sure what level at this point is reasonable for him, but considering his worth during those chapters I think trying to take any more levels just results in a ditch for him to climb out of. Not to mention the slowplaying results in higher stats but only one level per chapter in 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, since he's not likely getting 180+ exp in a chapter, but 80+ is simple enough.

15/1 with bexp taking into account: 38 hp, 14.5 str, 29 mag, 25 skl, 25 spd, 17 lck, 14.5 def, 25 res

(the bexp is effectively costless, just like Lethe's was. Cost on Lethe's bexp => cost on Soren's, unless he constantly reached >90 exp and was forced to no longer be used, which could also be bad for his utility.)

Pretty nuts for one chapter, I'll admit. Especially since he doubles all but 8 out of 60 units. Also he's 3HKOd (or more) by ~31 mt or less. Depends on where that .5 goes. 32 mt or more is a large amount of the map. It is fully possible that he's still rather squishy on most combinations. Plus there are the instances of paladin rushes, and since he's suddenly ORKOing everything you can't even count on him not clearing space against canto-less units. Even anything that might not be ORKOd by him can suddenly be flared, though at least he'll heal in that instance. Speaking of, he's pulling a 25% chance of flaring, and since he doubles it's more, but the second flare likely won't get too much hp if it activates depending on his weapon. Anyway, he's technically less squishy than Calill as a result of flare, but since failure to flare while being attacked twice generally means death I wouldn't count on it. Anyway, he can heal, but we have other healers so it's a small advantage and means less attacking. It kind of goes into why he's not really a great crown candidate. We already have 2 healers, and putting a crown on someone else means we have another full time attacker. Giving Soren one means if we are to include his healing advantage, we probably dumped a healer otherwise Soren would almost never heal anything, so we used up a crown and did not get a full time attacker.

Without the crown, all he's got going for him is more damage and if slowplayed doubling some enemies. Without slowplaying, he isn't even doubling anymore so it's just being more versatile in the kills he can finish. An advantage over Calill, but not huge. Should there be an opportunity cost associated with slowplaying Soren in 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10? As for the crown, since it can shave off levels and save exp on other units, Calill needs something. Paragon or a crown, but the crown is best used at level 19, likely, so it might be better with paragon. Still, she isn't needing slowplaying and the paragon likely is countered by that plus his crown. Up to the readers. One paragon chapter seems easily justified, 2 might be pushing it. Paragon in 3-11 helps earlier, but 4-P/1/2 might help more.

Now, 3-E plays out similarly to 3-11, only Calill has more levels now, even more if paragon'd in chapter 3-11. Calill might have reached 2HKO on more enemies by now, and if she had discipline (likely a small opportunity cost, but not much at this point, really) then she could be using a forge instead of 7 mt elfire.

In 4-P/1/2, she now has arcfire and more levels. Soren is forced into 4-1 and doubles some generals. While promoted in 3-11 and 3-E he'd need to get 3 levels (how?) in order to get to 26 speed, which results in doubling a few generals. He needs 42 mt to ORKO the things, 44 mt for one of them. 3 levels means 31 mag, so a forge is 41 mt, and his support is forced with Ike (not likely an issue if planned) and he actually pulls it off on all but two. (One with 23 spd, one with 47hp/20res). As for the rest, no doubling. As far as squishiness goes, the special 15/1 becomes 15/4 and he's now got 18 lck, so he's still facing crits from halbs/snipers/swordmasters, though he's safe from warriors. Again daunt protects from halbs, but we have 1 daunt for 3 teams, so that is questionable.

15/4 with bexp taking into account: 39.2 hp, 15.25 str, 31.4 mag, 26.8 skl, 26.05 spd, 18.05 lck, 15.25 def, 27.1 res

So unless he got a +def support he's still facing crit blicks with just 29 mt, probably 28. Swordmasters are not his friends. There's only one or two here, but 4-4 is not going to be Soren enemy phase friendly. In 4-1, if he meets the killer bow user he might as well give up now. Soren is likely going east, since that is where the things he doubles are. These things mostly 2 hit him, so again Soren's enemy phase isn't exactly happening. Levels aren't easy with ~10 turns on player phase only and just 2 to 3 levels below the enemies.

Let's say 15/7 for 4-4, maybe 15/8 but I'm calculating for 15/7.

40.4 hp, 16 str, 33.8 mag, 28.6 skl, 27.1 spd, 19.1 lck, 16 def, 29.2 res

In 4-4, Soren is facing being doubled by most swordmasters unless he has extra levels and pulled 28 spd. 37 mt still 2HKOs him, unless a +def support (suggest who?) which is almost everyone. Still blicked, still needs daunt for halbs, still should be kept out of sight of snipers and swordmasters. Lacks enemy phase, doubles almost nothing.

So, Soren gets actual offence in 3-11, 3-E, and a few turns in 4-1, and goes back to 2 rounding non-generals and 3 rounding generals except the 1 he doubles (he 2 rounds). Flare is of course going to help, but even it doesn't guarantee a kill since anything with more hp than his mt lives. Also, in order to actually use rexcalibur, he needs either elwind uses of the DB to purchase Tornado for him or using Sanaki's arcwind (obviously doesn't help in part 3). There are going to be a lot of elwind attacks before he gets his hand on either of these things (part 4) and so he needs a lot of attacks without a forge to ever get access to the 13 mt weapon. Still, that would make 49 with an A support, so he would be able to consistently 2 round everything including generals and a flare kills a lot more (warriors and generals live). Point is, he actually does something in 3 chapters, but that opens the door for Calill to get boosts and now she'll easily reach doubling spd for 4-E.

In part 4 for Calill, she can go up against the laguz in 4-5 and kill them easily, especially tigers (doubling) and 4-2 has a fair number of enemies she'll double after promotion but she might not be promoted. She also attains useable luck even if she can still be critted by snipers and swordmasters post promotion. At least snipers can be guarded against with daunt as of 20/9, though swordmasters will always have some crit, but at least they aren't doubling her at 20/5 while they double him until 20/12 or 20/13.

Anyway, the question really is how high a cost is Soren's crown. And how important is not being squishy in part 3 (ie: is he actually a benefit to have around while Calill isn't around?). Without a crown Soren only ever wins offence by a few points but it's basically minor when almost everyone 2 rounds anyway, and some even 1 round. Especially since some units are 3HKOing everything. Come part 4, Soren can't get high enough with paragon to start doubling and Calill actually can, possibly even without. Really, take from this what you will, but it mostly hinges on crowning an inferior candidate in 3-11 and whatever cost is associated with it, because without he's taking a few chapters of being neutral and a few chapters of beating her mt by about 7 or so which makes little difference really, then she starts doubling and killing things and he's left not doubling. If the crown is just given away then Soren > Calill becomes more justifiable, but in Soren's case he's not even really a top 3 candidate for the crown at that point so that has to come with a cost, and even though I suggested giving Calill a bit of paragon use in return I don't think it fully cancels it. I think that cost forces Calill > Soren, and without a crown Calill > Soren anyway.

Zkirsche · August 10, 2009

Offensively, she'll need to be fed kills. But this isn't too tough. At least, it's easier for her than it is for Lyre, since DB units generally have a harder time ORKOing. Like, Volug's 25 atk often leaves units in kill range for her, and 131 Hit sees 85+ displayed hit on everything at neutral biorythm.

ani

Boyd/Titania/Oscar/Nephenee/Haar/Soren certainly aren't ORKO'ing due to their base speed/attack. Then Shinon can leave a bunch of enemies alive on the enemy phase with his crossbow. And since the GM's are durable enougth to take on large amounts of enemies there can be lots of weakened enemies left and Lyre can easily pick a fight. Fiona is forcing DB units to take a counter on the player phase once she finsihes off an enemy that was weakened on the enemy phase. The DB can't afford that to happen.

But we can give her an Energy Drop, right? Now she's a 5HKO on Warriors, 6HKO on Halberdiers, 4HKO on Swordmasters, 3HKO on freakin' Sages, 4-5HKO on Snipers, 8-9HKO on Dragonmasters, and rofl20HKO on 24 Def Generals. Oh, but she doubles Generals, so it's a 10RKO. All this with an Energy Drop. Give her BEXP for some Spd (since 35% Str is going nowhere for now)? Cut those numbers in half and make it R, so she 3RKOs Warriors and Halberdiers, still doesn't double Swordmasters, and 2-3RKOs Snipers.

So she 3RKO's most things, 4RKO's SM's and 10RKO's Generals.

What does Fiona do? Well, on 1-7, with 18 Atk/10 AS, she 5RKO's fighters, 5-7RKO's soldiers, 3-4RKO's myrmidons, 2RKO's Mages, 4RKO's archers, 11RKO's the weakest armour knight, 33RKO's the strongest and she can't even damage the boss.

In 1-E, with +2 to atk and AS (Lolhow?), she 4-5RKO's fighters, 4RKO's Myrmidons, 5-6RKO's soldiers, 4-5RKO's archers, 2-3RKO's mages, 12-19RKO's armours.

After giving her another +2 Atk/AS, her performance in 3-6 is still pretty terribad. She 5RKO's the weakest enemies on the map - level 14 cats. In fact she 25RKO's the most common enemy on the map.

Lol@Fiona being able to kill anything. Add in her not-very-reliable hit and she is by far worse compared to the team than Lyre is.

So that's an idea of what Lyre needs. Also recall that Lyre cannot get increased offense like Fiona can get forges without consuming more valuable resources (aka the Energy Drop) and lacks Canto as well. Fiona also has innate Savior and Imbue, helping her durability and allowing her to save others in need without penalty, but that'll only come into play in late part 3 or early part 4. Still, it's worth noting.

You gave Fiona a seraph robe, so don't say we're favouring Lyre here.

2 small advantages, whcih she might not even keep as they can easily be given to someone else, like say, Lyre?

And then part 4 and Endgame Fiona clearly wins. I'll assume both got Paragon for at least a few maps and both, obviously, are going to endgame. Also, I'll only give them the bonuses from their own affinities for now, since it's arguable who they'll support.
Fiona, level 20/20/6, Silver Lance forge (+10 Hit, +2 MT)/Steel Bow forge (same)

HP: 50.25

Atk: 41/38

Hit: 181

AS: 29

Avoid: 112

Def: 28

Res: 24.5

Canto, Imbue, Savior, Sol, the works.

Lyre, level 28, SS Strike

HP: 52.5

Atk: 38

Hit: 161

AS: 36-38

Avoid: ~120

Def: 20

Res: 24

So except for the AS lead, Fiona wins or practically ties in everything (If Fiona supports into avoid, like Jill/Volug/Zihark/etc., the avoid gap closes). Spd just happens to be her highest growth, so she'll be doubling more reliably fast enough, she's more durable, and she's providing better support for someone else. Plus, she has access to range and doesn't have to eat a Laguz Gem to stay transformed. And it arguably took just as much to get them here.

If lyre supports avoid (E.g Ranulf), the gap increases.

I fail to see how she's more durable against, say, spirits. 0.5 Res vs ~2 HP. And I can't see Fiona getting to this level before 4-E-3. I mean, it takes her 2.8 levels per chapter to get her to level 20/3 by part 4, which i can't see with Fiona's terribad performance. From there, we need to give her ~12 levels per chapter if we want her to be 20/20/6 by 4-E-1. Even with paragon, this is incredibly hard for a unit that 8-12RKO's Halbs, 6-7RKO's warriors, 4-6RKO's SM's, 6-8RKO's snipers, 22RKO'ing general - at best - and 4RKO'ing mages in 4-2 (Using my below early part 4 statistics) whilst getting ORKO'ed by 25 enemies on the map (Though this is without the seraph robe, I excluded Lyre's energy drop). Lyre is offensively twice as good as Fiona because of doubling alone, and then Lyre can easily take an extra hit from these guys thanks to her Hp lead + she isn't doubled. Getting a 20/20/4 unit 3 levels per chapter when their 3RKO'ing and not being killed in one hit is easier to do than getting a 20/3 unit 12 levels per chapter when their ~6+RKO'ing and being killed by things in one hit.

By the way, don't underestimate the speed lead. Lyre doubles, Fiona doesn't. That's a pretty major offensive lead right there as Fiona only has a ~3 Atk lead at best, meaning Lyre always deal more damage unless Fiona doubles too, which doesn't happen in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5.

Since you didn't bother with it, here's a comparison of the two at the start of part 4:

Level 22 Lyre, S strike, 'A' ranulf: Hp: 50, Mt: 31, As: 30, Hit: 165, Avo: 114, Def: 18, Res: 12
level 20/3 Fiona with a silver lance, 'A' Jill: Hp: 33, Mt: 27, As: 19, Hit: 142, Avo: 102, Def: 18, Res: 15

Offensively... it's a massive win for lyre. Who deals more damage in one attack but actually doubles, unlike Fiona. There is no chance for Fiona to be able to deal more damage than Lyre at this point in time. But guess what? Even a base level Lyre with S strike deals as much damage as Fiona does.

Defensively, it's 12 avo, 11 AS and 17 HP against 3 res. Lyre wins defence too. this is excluding the fact that Jill would prefer to go with Micaiah's team for the desert chapter. In that scenario, Fiona loses 30 avo and 2 def. Meanng that it's possible for the durability battle to look like this:

Lyre V Fiona

17 HP, 11 AS, 42 avo and 2 def V 1 res.

Lyre wins, easily.

Edited August 10, 2009 by kirsche

Florete · August 10, 2009

Boyd/Titania/Oscar/Nephenee/Haar/Soren certainly aren't ORKO'ing due to their base speed/attack. Then Shinon can leave a bunch of enemies alive on the enemy phase with his crossbow. And since the GM's are durable enougth to take on large amounts of enemies there can be lots of weakened enemies left and Lyre can easily pick a fight. Fiona is forcing DB units to take a counter on the player phase once she finsihes off an enemy that was weakened on the enemy phase. The DB can't afford that to happen.

But what about non-kills from the enemy phase? And Volug isn't the only one who can lower them like that either, it can be Zihark or Sothe, who also don't happen to need a whole lot of experience and are fairly durable themselves.

So she 3RKO's most things, 4RKO's SM's and 10RKO's Generals.
What does Fiona do? Well, on 1-7, with 18 Atk/10 AS, she 5RKO's fighters, 5-7RKO's soldiers, 3-4RKO's myrmidons, 2RKO's Mages, 4RKO's archers, 11RKO's the weakest armour knight, 33RKO's the strongest and she can't even damage the boss.

The point is that they both still need to be fed kills to do anything. And I'd argue that what Lyre needed to do it (an Energy Drop) is more valuable than what Fiona needed (a forge). Lyre also has her lolgauge, which means she can't even be fighting all the time, so 4RKOing instead of 4-5 really isn't helping her case.

In 1-E, with +2 to atk and AS (Lolhow?)

Babying and kill feeding. Both require it to get anywhere.

After giving her another +2 Atk/AS, her performance in 3-6 is still pretty terribad. She 5RKO's the weakest enemies on the map - level 14 cats. In fact she 25RKO's the most common enemy on the map.

What level are you putting her at? Also, she can be using a +Hit forge, so her Hit is not too much of an issue. And I know she's terrible, but I'm not trying to say she's good, just that she's better than Lyre, since Lyre really isn't doing any better in comparison to her team.

You gave Fiona a seraph robe, so don't say we're favouring Lyre here.

We're favoring both. I just mentioned that it costs more to increase Lyre's offense than it does to increase Fiona's.

2 small advantages, whcih she might not even keep as they can easily be given to someone else, like say, Lyre?

Because Lyre's going to make awesome use of Imbue and Savior, amirite? Being on Fiona at no cost must be absolutely meaningless.

If lyre supports avoid (E.g Ranulf), the gap increases.

If Lyre supports avoid, she gets +7 more. If Fiona supports Earth (which is more likely given her affinity), she gets +22. Lyre would have to support Earth herself, but lol at her supporting Ike or Oscar.

I fail to see how she's more durable against, say, spirits. 0.5 Res vs ~2 HP.

By the time they get to 4-E-4, she'll be at a higher level. She'll ahve likely capped Res at 27 and have more HP. Lyre might kinda tie her, but also lacks offense on the first turn and has no range.

And I can't see Fiona getting to this level before 4-E-3. I mean, it takes her 2.8 levels per chapter to get her to level 20/3 by part 4, which i can't see with Fiona's terribad performance.

Paragon? I assumed it for both.

By the way, don't underestimate the speed lead. Lyre doubles, Fiona doesn't. That's a pretty major offensive lead right there as Fiona only has a ~3 Atk lead at best, meaning Lyre always deal more damage unless Fiona doubles too, which doesn't happen in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5.

Spd is Fiona's highest growth. Leveling or BEXP will get it up fast. Fiona can also have a stronger forge and/or the Wishblade.

Since you didn't bother with it, here's a comparison of the two at the start of part 4:

Level 22 Lyre, S strike, 'A' ranulf: Hp: 50, Mt: 31, As: 30, Hit: 165, Avo: 114, Def: 18, Res: 12
level 20/3 Fiona with a silver lance, 'A' Jill: Hp: 33, Mt: 27, As: 19, Hit: 142, Avo: 102, Def: 18, Res: 15

Offensively... it's a massive win for lyre. Who deals more damage in one attack but actually doubles, unlike Fiona. There is no chance for Fiona to be able to deal more damage than Lyre at this point in time. But guess what? Even a base level Lyre with S strike deals as much damage as Fiona does.

Defensively, it's 12 avo, 11 AS and 17 HP against 3 res. Lyre wins defence too. this is excluding the fact that Jill would prefer to go with Micaiah's team for the desert chapter. In that scenario, Fiona loses 30 avo and 2 def. Meanng that it's possible for the durability battle to look like this:

Lyre V Fiona

17 HP, 11 AS, 42 avo and 2 def V 1 res.

Lyre wins, easily.

Except that level is too low. Fiona should be at least 20/6 by now because of Laguz kills, and will also level up amazingly fast, so her issues disappear eventually, because while Fiona is leveling like a 20/whatever Beorc, Lyre is leveling like a 20/20/4 Beorc, meaning with Paragon Fiona can practically get a level per kill, which just needs to be set up for a bit, but even Lyre's 31 atk is pretty bad, and Fiona should have a forge anyway. So Lyre beats her only until Fiona's massively higher experience gain catches her up, and then Fiona starts winning. She needs ~5 levels from 20/3 to catch up in avoid, and by then will be winning Def as well, and the atk gap will have mostly closed, so Lyre only has doubling on her, but still has that nasty little thing called a Laguz gauge and no ranged options.

Lyre winning means little if she still sucks and Fiona can catch up fast, which she can. Both have lots of problems getting there, but going from terrible -> arguably good at Endgame is better than going from terrible -> still kinda bad.

Zkirsche · August 10, 2009

But what about non-kills from the enemy phase? And Volug isn't the only one who can lower them like that either, it can be Zihark or Sothe, who also don't happen to need a whole lot of experience and are fairly durable themselves.

Can they? 18/1 Nolan has 30 Atk/16 AS with a forged iron axe. xx/6 Zihark has 29 Atk/25 AS with a forged iron sword. Magic Fiona has 20 Atk and 12 AS by this point. Let's look at some enemies:

1x Fighter lvl 17 Steel Axe: HP 34, Atk 29, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 51, DEF 11

1x Myrmidon lvl 18 Steel Sword: HP 29, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 145, Avo 64, DEF 11

1x Soldier lvl 18 Javelin: HP 32, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 119, Avo 56, DEF 13

3x Archer lvl 18 Steel Bow: HP 29, Atk 28, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 56, DEF 13

2x Wind Mage lvl 19 Elwind: HP 27, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 139, Avo 51, DEF 7

1x Armor Axe lvl 18 Steel Poleax: HP 36, Atk 32, AS 12, Hit 112, Avo 50, DEF 17

Nolan + Fiona can't kill the fighter. Nolan + Fiona can't kill the myrmidon. Nolan + Fiona can't kill the soldier. Nolan + Fiona can't kill the archers. Nolan + Fiona can kill the wind mage. Nolan + Fiona can't kill the armour axe.

Zihark kills the fighter, myrmidon, soldier, the archers and the wind mages with out Fiona. Fiona + Zihark cannot kill the armour axe.

Heck, checking out this 25 Atk Volug and his 19 AS, you'll notice that Volug + Fiona can only kill the fighter. Volug kills the mages by himself.

The point is that they both still need to be fed kills to do anything. And I'd argue that what Lyre needed to do it (an Energy Drop) is more valuable than what Fiona needed (a forge). Lyre also has her lolgauge, which means she can't even be fighting all the time, so 4RKOing instead of 4-5 really isn't helping her case.

Lyre also can use paragon before promotion, Lyre also has more chapters to catch up to the team, Lyre also faces more enemies, we also have an easier time feeding Lyre kills, we also have more bexp in part 3 than in part 1, and Lyre uses one of the least amounts of it on the team. We can also have Lyre use olivi grasses and the clever strategy of untransforming her during periods which lack combat.

You said she was 3RKOing most of the time (against Snipers/Warriors/Halbs). But whatever.

Babying and kill feeding. Both require it to get anywhere.

Fiona needing more to get futher than Lyre (as demonstrated before after I gave Lyre 0.83 levels per chapter and Fiona 2.8 levels per chapter and Lyre still won).

What level are you putting her at? Also, she can be using a +Hit forge, so her Hit is not too much of an issue. And I know she's terrible, but I'm not trying to say she's good, just that she's better than Lyre, since Lyre really isn't doing any better in comparison to her team.

she[Lyre] 3RKO's most things, 4RKO's SM's and 10RKO's Generals.

She[Fiona] 5RKO's the weakest enemies on the map - level 14 cats. In fact she 25RKO's the most common enemy on the map.

Yes, Lyre is performing so much worse than Fiona is. [/sarcasm]

Saying 3-4RKOing is similar to 25RKOing is bullcrap. Especially since the GM's aren't reliably ORKOing thanks to either low spd (Haar/Titania/Oscar/Boyd/Soren/Rhys/Mordy) or low Atk (Shinon with crossbows/Oscar/Nephenee/Mist/Lethe).

Heck, comparing Fiona's part 1 performance to Lyre part 3 performance:

she[Lyre] 3RKO's most things, 4RKO's SM's and 10RKO's Generals.

she[Fiona] 4-5RKO's fighters, 4RKO's Myrmidons, 5-6RKO's soldiers, 4-5RKO's archers, 2-3RKO's mages, 12-19RKO's armours.

... I'm still struggling to see how Lyre isn't > Fiona comparatively. Especially when Lyre also 2-3RKO's mages but takes 1-3 less rounds to kill Fighters/soldiers/archers and 2-9 less rounds to kill generals.

We're favoring both. I just mentioned that it costs more to increase Lyre's offense than it does to increase Fiona's.

Well, that's still untrue.

Because Lyre's going to make awesome use of Imbue and Savior, amirite? Being on Fiona at no cost must be absolutely meaningless.

Erm, yes she does. She's not as good with saviour, but base Lyre has more mag transformed than a level 20/13 Fiona. Plus, Lyre can use Imbue for a longer period of time. As can Titania, who can use both imbue and saviour well too.

We can swap skills over in this game, meaning having a skill has little difference to not having one. The only advantage is not using capacity, but that doesn't matter if someone else wants it because they woudl appreciate the capacity loss for the skill. It's like saying Soren has an advantage over others because he has innate adept even though Mia/Shinon are better with it.

If Lyre supports avoid, she gets +7 more. If Fiona supports Earth (which is more likely given her affinity), she gets +22. Lyre would have to support Earth herself, but lol at her supporting Ike or Oscar.

Just because someone has an earth affinity, doesn't necessarily make people more entitled to anotehr earth affinity. Take Ike and Oscar, we don't view that as a beneficial support because the avo is superfluous.

By the time they get to 4-E-4, she'll be at a higher level. She'll ahve likely capped Res at 27 and have more HP. Lyre might kinda tie her, but also lacks offense on the first turn and has no range.

No she won't. See below.

Paragon? I assumed it for both.

1) Fiona can't use paragon before promoting once.

2) You missed this, which was explaining why, even with paragon, she struggles to get 12 levels per chapter:

From there, we need to give her ~12 levels per chapter if we want her to be 20/20/6 by 4-E-1. Even with paragon, this is incredibly hard for a unit that 8-12RKO's Halbs, 6-7RKO's warriors, 4-6RKO's SM's, 6-8RKO's snipers, 22RKO'ing general - at best - and 4RKO'ing mages in 4-2 (Using my below early part 4 statistics) whilst getting ORKO'ed by 25 enemies on the map (Though this is without the seraph robe, I excluded Lyre's energy drop). Lyre is offensively twice as good as Fiona because of doubling alone, and then Lyre can easily take an extra hit from these guys thanks to her Hp lead + she isn't doubled. Getting a 20/20/4 unit 3 levels per chapter when their 3RKO'ing and not being killed in one hit is easier to do than getting a 20/3 unit 12 levels per chapter when their ~6+RKO'ing and being killed by things in one hit.

LOng story short: Fiona sucks ass and will struggle to get that kind of level even with paragon.

Spd is Fiona's highest growth. Leveling or BEXP will get it up fast. Fiona can also have a stronger forge and/or the Wishblade.

Shame her cap offsets it a bit. Plus, she's overleveleld in it as-is, meaning her speed is less. You cannot seriously be suggesting that Fiona can pull an Atk lead so large it offsets the fact that Lyre doubles and Fiona doesn't. If you are, I would laugh.

Except that level is too low. Fiona should be at least 20/6 by now because of Laguz kills, and will also level up amazingly fast, so her issues disappear eventually, because while Fiona is leveling like a 20/whatever Beorc, Lyre is leveling like a 20/20/4 Beorc, meaning with Paragon Fiona can practically get a level per kill, which just needs to be set up for a bit, but even Lyre's 31 atk is pretty bad, and Fiona should have a forge anyway. So Lyre beats her only until Fiona's massively higher experience gain catches her up, and then Fiona starts winning. She needs ~5 levels from 20/3 to catch up in avoid, and by then will be winning Def as well, and the atk gap will have mostly closed, so Lyre only has doubling on her, but still has that nasty little thing called a Laguz gauge and no ranged options.

With a max silver forge, she has 32 Atk. That's not enougth to offset the fact that Lyre can double and Fiona can't. And whilst she may be bad, getting her exp and feeding her kills is much, much easier to do than with Fiona.

Yes, lagus "Kills" like the ones she fails to get. Level 13 Fiona with a seraph robe, 'C' Jill has 34 HP/11 Def/12 AS. Which means that all the tigers ORKO her, in fact, only 10 units 2RKO her. Because of this, it is likely that she uses ranged weaponry, aka javelins. With a javelin, a level 13 Fiona tinks all but the 23 cats, and her RKO rate goes as high as a 9RKO against the level 14 cats. This also erases any utility possible through chokeholing. Do you know how much exp you get from tinking an enemy? O. Plus, she has <50% hit rates with a javelin against all the cats. Do you know how much exp you get through missing? 0. I gave her an extra 0.8 levels per chapter from these chapters from her unreliable hit alone.

Lyre winning means little if she still sucks and Fiona can catch up fast, which she can. Both have lots of problems getting there, but going from terrible -> arguably good at Endgame is better than going from terrible -> still kinda bad.

You're right, which is exactly why Lyre > Fiona.

grandjackal · August 10, 2009

Another note is that at least investing a stat booster into a laguz gets you a greater return than most. Lyre's leveling at the speed of most of your team at the time (she's leveling what Oscar was back when part 3 started), all she needs is 1 speed to start doubling like Lethe. In order for Fiona to get anywhere near that kind of deal, to become at least more able to kill her chewed food, she'd basically need to be bEXPd out of her entire tier 1. On top of that, she only has 2 chapters (I recall her not joining the fun in the swamp, not that she'd be effective there anyways). Then 1-E, has to deal with her god awful hit against Jarod's authority.

THEN 3-6, has to deal with laguz. Exactly how is she gonna be able to take them after only 3 chapters to gain her levels? Lyre doesn't just have more time, she has WAAAAAYYY more time.

Narga_Rocks · August 10, 2009

I don't know about Lyre vs. Fiona. It really depends on the cost associated with Lyre's energy drop and bexp in 3-4. 2550 bexp when we have 10350 max is 24.63%. Twice as much as I was trying to give Lethe. Then she's leveling like a 20/16 beorc rather than a 20/14 and so she's gaining Titania level exp. Then after two levels its 20/20, another makes 20/20/2. I don't see level 22 by part 4 for Lyre, although assuming paragon use in 3-11 and 3-E to compensate for Fiona's use once she promotes I suppose level 22 might actually be possible.

Anyway, did Kirsche read this specifically?

She's terrible. She has the same Str transformed as Ranulf has untransformed, and only +1 Def. She has 22 base atk, which is the same as base Mist w/Florete. She can't even double much of anything, which hurts her Strike experience a lot, and has a very hard time gaining experience because of her stupid gauge and crappy durability. Oh, and she tinks Generals.

But we can give her an Energy Drop, right? Now she's a 5HKO on Warriors, 6HKO on Halberdiers, 4HKO on Swordmasters, 3HKO on freakin' Sages, 4-5HKO on Snipers, 8-9HKO on Dragonmasters, and rofl20HKO on 24 Def Generals. Oh, but she doubles Generals, so it's a 10RKO. All this with an Energy Drop. Give her BEXP for some Spd (since 35% Str is going nowhere for now)? Cut those numbers in half and make it R, so she 3RKOs Warriors and Halberdiers, still doesn't double Swordmasters, and 2-3RKOs Snipers.

You said she was 3RKOing most of the time (against Snipers/Warriors/Halbs). But whatever.

In your previous post you somehow managed to reduce those numbers to 4 rounding most things, now you've reduced it to 3 rounding. Sure, she could double, but at 22 spd she isn't in 3-4 and 3-7, and needs 3 levels by 3-8 to get the 26 speed to double the snipers/warriors/halbs there. The bexp cost has basically been ignored. >20% is actually a cost above Lyre's fair share, and while the % rate is reduced over time she needs more to hit the 26 spd later. The more levels gained without bexp the higher the chance she won't pull off speed. 70% is not 100%. I'm sure it's rather huge with bexp levels, but without more she might not pull off 26 speed in time. Then she needs to have 28 speed to double most things in 4-1/2, though if she goes Micaiah route she'll mostly need 26. I guess if she pulls level 22 it's easy enough. Here's the thing, she has gauge trouble. She's basically reduced to player phase, because anything weak enough for her to kill on enemy phase might end up running away. Or the priest might heal it first, or something. So while she could easily pull more attacks and reach S strike sooner that way, she's getting hit exp at that point. Not exactly gaining much exp, and doesn't even reach the spd levels in time for 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11. Finally gets paragon access in 3-11, so 3-E should have some doubling, I guess. Or, she's stuck on player phase, like I said.

30 gauge:

Attack, drop to 26

21 gauge, attack, drop to 17.

12 gauge, attack, drop to 8.

3 gauge, revert/grass doesn't get her back to 30.

30 gauge:

Attack, drop to 26

21 gauge, attack, drop to 17

12 gauge, revert, grass.

30 gauge, attack, repeat.

She's attacking 2 out of 3 rounds at best here, and that's assuming you manage to keep her away from enemies on enemy phase. Though we can add in one attack on enemy phase or with a reyson assist and still pull off the revert + grass trick, so she's doing 1 attack per turn on average, but can only be fed kills for 2 out of 3. At best, she's looking at starting this on turn 3 without stones, but we don't have enough for her to use one every map. So she's doing 8 attacks per map and pulling 6 kills, or something similar. I don't know how fast she'll level, but even if she takes all the bexp so that she's always doubling it means a: she now gets countered all the time and someone else must heal her since she can't heal herself without using reyson or missing a grass or attack. b: it takes 5 maps per level of strike, so midway through 3-11 she pulls S strike and midway through 4-E she pulls SS. With 8 per map she takes 5x2 towards SS in 3-11, 8x2 in 3-E, 8x2 in 4-P/1/2, 8x2 in 4-3/4/5. She has, at this point, 58 points towards 80 when she starts 4-E-1, and can finally use a gem to dump the gauge. The 5 in 3-11 is because the first 3 was reaching S. So she still needs another 11 doubles while having S strike just to reach that SS, so probably by 4-E-2 she finally has it, but by then Fiona has leveled more.

Can they? 18/1 Nolan has 30 Atk/16 AS with a forged iron axe. xx/6 Zihark has 29 Atk/25 AS with a forged iron sword. Magic Fiona has 20 Atk and 12 AS by this point. Let's look at some enemies:

So Z pulled 3 levels in 1-6? Or is this 1-E? I think it was 1-E, so 3 levels in 3 chapters for a guy getting like 5 exp a kill? Wow, you certainly don't want to raise many tier 1 units. I'm not sure if it'll change much, but even --/5 is pushing it for the start of 1-E.

Zihark kills the fighter, myrmidon, soldier, the archers and the wind mages with out Fiona. Fiona + Zihark cannot kill the armour axe.

Or Zihark could use a weapon that won't kill things. It isn't like he really benefits much from getting ~7 exp rather than 2. Or whatever he's getting now that it's 1-E.

Heck, checking out this 25 Atk Volug and his 19 AS, you'll notice that Volug + Fiona can only kill the fighter. Volug kills the mages by himself.

Volug is pulling S by mid-chapter. I don't remember if 30 atk kills stuff or if it allows Fiona to help out.

The point is that they both still need to be fed kills to do anything. And I'd argue that what Lyre needed to do it (an Energy Drop) is more valuable than what Fiona needed (a forge). Lyre also has her lolgauge, which means she can't even be fighting all the time, so 4RKOing instead of 4-5 really isn't helping her case.

Lyre also can use paragon before promotion, Lyre also has more chapters to catch up to the team, Lyre also faces more enemies, we also have an easier time feeding Lyre kills, we also have more bexp in part 3 than in part 1, and Lyre uses one of the least amounts of it on the team. We can also have Lyre use olivi grasses and the clever strategy of untransforming her during periods which lack combat.

Promotion? Nevermind, it's just worded interestingly. Lyre needs to take an energy drop, and a fair amount of bexp, just to pull off halfway decent offense. 22 mt doesn't even combo with much to get kills until the hawks show up, until then you need to give Ike an iron blade or something to make it happen. The forge for Fiona is nowhere near equal to what Lyre took. You might notice Red Fox didn't even give her max mt. She gave max hit, but the fact she only gave +3 mt means we can easily afford many other forges for the other units. Lyre takes a drop, and we can't exactly give many other drops away. How much exp is she getting on 6 kills and 2 attacks anyway? And if we happened to feed her kills in a way she doesn't need to be countered, well at that point she's getting 10 wexp per map (2 doubles when she doesn't kill, 6 single attacks on the fed kills). Really, I shouldn't give her 16 per map at this point, and should say ~13 because sometimes the fed kill won't need to be doubled. Now it takes ~5.4 maps to get S strike, or partway through 3-E. Then she gets another 8 wexp in 3-E towards SS and needs 72 more. Another 26 total in 4-P/1/2/3/4/5 and she's needing 46 wexp in 4-E before she reaches SS. Assuming she's now getting more enemy phase and always doubling and fed kills are now needing doubles, that's still 26 attacks that should take her until 4-E-4 or something depending on how quickly we beat 4-E-2 and 4-E-3. Face it, Red Fox of Fire giving Lyre SS for 4-E-1 was a gift. A huge gift. Like, big enough Lyre's 4-E should be reevaluated at S strike level kind of gift.

Babying and kill feeding. Both require it to get anywhere.

Fiona needing more to get futher than Lyre (as demonstrated before after I gave Lyre 0.83 levels per chapter and Fiona 2.8 levels per chapter and Lyre still won).

Well, Lyre needs fewer (does she? She's around for 2 more pre-part 4 chapters, and if they are both being fed and Fiona gets more feeds because of no gauge, so it's really even before part 4), but in order to prevent enemy phase suckage and fewer fed kills Lyre needs to be protected. Fiona at least has Canto, even if she only gets 6 move in 1-7 and 1-E. It's easier to protect Astrid than Fiona from enemy phase suckage, but that doesn't change the fact it's easier to protect Fiona than Lyre from enemy phase suckage.

What level are you putting her at? Also, she can be using a +Hit forge, so her Hit is not too much of an issue. And I know she's terrible, but I'm not trying to say she's good, just that she's better than Lyre, since Lyre really isn't doing any better in comparison to her team.

she[Lyre] 3RKO's most things, 4RKO's SM's and 10RKO's Generals.

She[Fiona] 5RKO's the weakest enemies on the map - level 14 cats. In fact she 25RKO's the most common enemy on the map.

Yes, Lyre is performing so much worse than Fiona is. [/sarcasm]

Well, given the energy drop we gave Lyre and the bexp compared to a simple forge and a robe, I'd say a bit of beastfoe in 3-13 could work, since she'll be promoted by then. Not sure if being able to kill easier is worth giving up paragon for that chapter, though. I miss the laguz slayer weapons from PoR.

Saying 3-4RKOing is similar to 25RKOing is bullcrap. Especially since the GM's aren't reliably ORKOing thanks to either low spd (Haar/Titania/Oscar/Boyd/Soren/Rhys/Mordy) or low Atk (Shinon with crossbows/Oscar/Nephenee/Mist/Lethe).

Heck, comparing Fiona's part 1 performance to Lyre part 3 performance:

she[Lyre] 3RKO's most things, 4RKO's SM's and 10RKO's Generals.

she[Fiona] 4-5RKO's fighters, 4RKO's Myrmidons, 5-6RKO's soldiers, 4-5RKO's archers, 2-3RKO's mages, 12-19RKO's armours.

... I'm still struggling to see how Lyre isn't > Fiona comparatively. Especially when Lyre also 2-3RKO's mages but takes 1-3 less rounds to kill Fighters/soldiers/archers and 2-9 less rounds to kill generals.

Again, that's all with the drop. Still, assuming the drop she's still being fed and taking counters and needing healing, or it is much harder to get her to S because she is only getting one hit on her kills. Either way, Shinon with a crossbow cannot set up a kill against most enemies, mages/bishops sure, but nothing else. Mist comboing with Lyre? Heck, Lethe isn't likely able to do it on most enemies without a drop and S strike, so at this point two drops have gone to cats. Maybe some enemies can be killed with an S strike Lethe and energy drop Lyre, like snipers I guess. But even that isn't working until mid 3-8. If Oscar has low spd and low attack, how is he setting up a kill? Not doubling and doing <50% damage will not get a kill for Lyre. Titania likely took a wing, but if not I'm not sure she does enough for Lyre to finish it. Others, sure, but not Lyre. Same with Mordy. With 38 mt and never doubling he isn't pulling 43 + supports soon, and 40 mt isn't giving Lyre many kills. Anyway, there are more GMs who combo with Lyre and don't kill than there are that do. Well, against some enemies I suppose most GMs can do the combo, but not all. Just saying it's not like it's easy.

We're favoring both. I just mentioned that it costs more to increase Lyre's offense than it does to increase Fiona's.

Well, that's still untrue.

Ah, but Red Fox put in a trick in this sentence. By focusing on the offence alone, it completely ignores the robe usage. At this point, you are equating a forge in part 1 to an energy drop and a fair amount of bexp. Doesn't that sound ridiculous? Anyway, even with the robe I don't think it counters the bexp and the drop. It might, but the sentence you called untrue was not including the robe.

Because Lyre's going to make awesome use of Imbue and Savior, amirite? Being on Fiona at no cost must be absolutely meaningless.

Erm, yes she does. She's not as good with saviour, but base Lyre has more mag transformed than a level 20/13 Fiona. Plus, Lyre can use Imbue for a longer period of time. As can Titania, who can use both imbue and saviour well too.

We can swap skills over in this game, meaning having a skill has little difference to not having one. The only advantage is not using capacity, but that doesn't matter if someone else wants it because they woudl appreciate the capacity loss for the skill. It's like saying Soren has an advantage over others because he has innate adept even though Mia/Shinon are better with it.

Except Soren with Adept is pulling 20% rates while Mia pulls 50% rates. That difference is nuts. Saviour on Fiona compared to Saviour on a non-canto unit? Huge difference. Fiona is better with saviour, and gets it for free. Soren is far worse with Adept, so getting it for free is worth squat. As for Imbue, level 33 Lyre is getting 14 or 16 hp, Fiona at 20/20/11 is getting 18 while pulling 49/28/27 vs. 55/20/26. I don't imagine either having higher levels at any point, and I think the level I gave Fiona is easier than the level I gave Lyre. Anyway, Fiona is more durable physically and pretty close magically, so having more with imbue is better. As for the other units, Titania with imbue in part 3 leaves her with 5 capacity, and also only 5 capacity in part 4. Having only 5 capacity remaining and no offensive skills and just sol (skill/2 activation) to rely on? Not fun. Saviour means just 10 capacity. Saviour probably goes on Haar once he promotes better, since Stun only takes 25, and Stun is skill% so he'd even mourn the loss of a better skill less. Anyway, Fiona and her skills is not comparable to Soren and his. She's still not guaranteed the things, but being able to combine pass and saviour and imbue after promotion compared to not being able to? That's gotta be worth something. Or replace pass with something else. And she isn't putting us in danger in any part by holding onto these skills, so it isn't the remove Adept from Zihark argument either. And Titania gets more from an Oscar support than from imbue, and she's like the only unit in part 3 that can match Oscar's movement. Haar flies so he isn't exactly going to be around all the time and isn't restricted in 3-4, 3-7, 4-4. Giving her imbue alone doesn't exactly help on an individual enemy phase, and giving her imbue and Oscar is like overkill.

If Lyre supports avoid, she gets +7 more. If Fiona supports Earth (which is more likely given her affinity), she gets +22. Lyre would have to support Earth herself, but lol at her supporting Ike or Oscar.

Just because someone has an earth affinity, doesn't necessarily make people more entitled to anotehr earth affinity. Take Ike and Oscar, we don't view that as a beneficial support because the avo is superfluous.

Well, given she'd only pull a C for 3-6 and a B for 3-13 without interesting practices I'd have to agree Volug/Zihark/Nolan will likely go elsewhere for their support partners. Still, Lyre supporting Soren doesn't seem like a great idea, and anything else means Lyre misses out on building a +mt support. I guess she could wait for Calill, but that doesn't seem so good either. If for some odd reason we didn't let Ike or Shinon support Mia, she might not mind Lyre, or we could give Lyre to a water user or another fire user. A lot of them would appreciate the thunder support. It is basically their best combo aside from thunder. Basically, the best support for all does not really include a +avo for Lyre.

By the time they get to 4-E-4, she'll be at a higher level. She'll ahve likely capped Res at 27 and have more HP. Lyre might kinda tie her, but also lacks offense on the first turn and has no range.

No she won't. See below.

Paragon? I assumed it for both.

1) Fiona can't use paragon before promoting once.

2) You missed this, which was explaining why, even with paragon, she struggles to get 12 levels per chapter:

From there, we need to give her ~12 levels per chapter if we want her to be 20/20/6 by 4-E-1. Even with paragon, this is incredibly hard for a unit that 8-12RKO's Halbs, 6-7RKO's warriors, 4-6RKO's SM's, 6-8RKO's snipers, 22RKO'ing general - at best - and 4RKO'ing mages in 4-2 (Using my below early part 4 statistics) whilst getting ORKO'ed by 25 enemies on the map (Though this is without the seraph robe, I excluded Lyre's energy drop). Lyre is offensively twice as good as Fiona because of doubling alone, and then Lyre can easily take an extra hit from these guys thanks to her Hp lead + she isn't doubled. Getting a 20/20/4 unit 3 levels per chapter when their 3RKO'ing and not being killed in one hit is easier to do than getting a 20/3 unit 12 levels per chapter when their ~6+RKO'ing and being killed by things in one hit.

LOng story short: Fiona sucks ass and will struggle to get that kind of level even with paragon.

But the whole point of feeding someone kills is that we can. It's a bit easier with Lyre, but whatever. And what do you mean you excluded her energy drop? Even if you do that and look at Lyre's performance in part 4, you can't just do that and ignore what it does to her part 3. Let's give her the bexp anyway, so she actually doubles more. 22 mt in 3-4:

(double the numbers against anything with 19 or 20 spd if you don't bexp her)

4 rounds 20 speed warriors, 9 rounds the two 21 speed warriors.

7 rounds the halbs, 10 rounds the 20 def halb.

6 rounds the swordmasters, 7 rounds the 17 def swordmasters (while being 4HKOd by either and with crit, so as little as 2 rounds is possible)

2 rounds (4HKOs) fire sages. (2HKOd in return, so dies before killing)

2 rounds (3HKOs) thunder sages. (6 or 5 HKOd depending on 25 mt or 26 mt. 1 of the former, 2 of the latter. Finally killing before being killed. Except, oh wait, crit. Oops)

tinks Generals and the general boss.

20 rounds the lv10 dragonmaster and 21 rounds the lvl12 dragonmaster. 2 rounded in return.

Now, one cat-woman does not an army make, so it doesn't exactly matter that she now takes even longer to kill anything. Just means that most things need to be left with <10 hp for her to kill, and swordmasters with 5 or 6, halbs with 4 or 6 (2 or 3 without bexp), warriors with 12 and 5 or 6 and 5 (depending on bexp or not), and Dragonmasters with 1 or 2 (one has 19 spd, so she needs bexp or it must be left with 1).

I don't exactly see this task as being easy. Assuming skl/spd/lck on bexp level, she's pulling 22 x 2 + 17 + 15 + 90 = 166 hit. At least she isn't missing much. Still, Lyre on worst (Heather's bio, so it happens every 3 or so turns) and enemy on good or best means that Lyre is facing miss rates, but Fire/Light/Wind would likely cover that and it isn't as much as Fiona's anyway. So most of the time you can at least be assured Lyre will actually kill what we feed her, so that's good.

Spd is Fiona's highest growth. Leveling or BEXP will get it up fast. Fiona can also have a stronger forge and/or the Wishblade.

Shame her cap offsets it a bit. Plus, she's overleveleld in it as-is, meaning her speed is less. You cannot seriously be suggesting that Fiona can pull an Atk lead so large it offsets the fact that Lyre doubles and Fiona doesn't. If you are, I would laugh.

Cap offsets what? She pulls 34 spd at 20/20/15 (though I don't see that, but bexp could save it) and if she manages 34 spd then the only one better for the wishblade is Marcia, since Neph doesn't have canto but has similar str (a little more, 2 or 3 after lvl difference factored in). Well, against dragons someone with higher str is better for it, but I mean the other chapters.

Except that level is too low. Fiona should be at least 20/6 by now because of Laguz kills, and will also level up amazingly fast, so her issues disappear eventually, because while Fiona is leveling like a 20/whatever Beorc, Lyre is leveling like a 20/20/4 Beorc, meaning with Paragon Fiona can practically get a level per kill, which just needs to be set up for a bit, but even Lyre's 31 atk is pretty bad, and Fiona should have a forge anyway. So Lyre beats her only until Fiona's massively higher experience gain catches her up, and then Fiona starts winning. She needs ~5 levels from 20/3 to catch up in avoid, and by then will be winning Def as well, and the atk gap will have mostly closed, so Lyre only has doubling on her, but still has that nasty little thing called a Laguz gauge and no ranged options.

With a max silver forge, she has 32 Atk. That's not enougth to offset the fact that Lyre can double and Fiona can't. And whilst she may be bad, getting her exp and feeding her kills is much, much easier to do than with Fiona.

Well, without the energy drop you say you aren't factoring in, Lyre has 29 mt at level 22 with S strike if we assume bexp for the first level. If we don't bexp, Lyre sucks more in 3-4 and 3-7, won't even be pulling doubles and might not even have S strike yet, so she's looking at 26 mt because 8.75 means 9 is more likely now that the first level wasn't bexp and so she gets 18 + 8. Still, doubling with 26 mt is covered by the fact most enemies have 20 def. With 29 mt, 32 atk means same damage for 26 def, more for Fiona for more def, less for less. Lyre should have a +mt, hopefully, and Fiona can only take Micaiah or Leo for that. Still, Micaiah wouldn't mind earth and Sothe x Micaiah doesn't really benefit anything after 3-12 so we just give it up for 3-6 and 3-12, not too bad. Fiona can take a Micaiah support, but then gets stuck in the desert so maybe Leo would be better, but he's not likely to be played. This helps Lyre a bit, but then unless Lyre took Soren she's tying Fiona's avoid soon. (Fiona takes almost anyone and gets avo). Anywyay, 14 str for Fiona means 20/3, little harsh. Even 20/5 means 33 mt and after a few kills she'll get more. Lyre is still a long long way from SS.

Yes, lagus "Kills" like the ones she fails to get. Level 13 Fiona with a seraph robe, 'C' Jill has 34 HP/11 Def/12 AS. Which means that all the tigers ORKO her, in fact, only 10 units 2RKO her. Because of this, it is likely that she uses ranged weaponry, aka javelins. With a javelin, a level 13 Fiona tinks all but the 23 cats, and her RKO rate goes as high as a 9RKO against the level 14 cats. This also erases any utility possible through chokeholing. Do you know how much exp you get from tinking an enemy? O. Plus, she has <50% hit rates with a javelin against all the cats. Do you know how much exp you get through missing? 0. I gave her an extra 0.8 levels per chapter from these chapters from her unreliable hit alone.

What game are you playing? Without paragon, she gets 1 for those things you mentioned. With paragon, she gets 2. Doesn't help much, but I wonder how you managed that. Anyway, before promotion it might be complicated to get her to attack at one range with her forge, move her out, and put someone else in her place. It isn't impossible though, and that tactic isn't any worse than protecting Lyre from enemy phase exposure. Heck, it's gotta be less bad than that, since it seems like it would be pretty easy. It could even be BK unequipped or something. Just alternate the tank between BK and Sothe or something, and when BK leaves, Fiona rides in, rides out, Sothe moves in. There are plenty of ways to do this.

Lyre winning means little if she still sucks and Fiona can catch up fast, which she can. Both have lots of problems getting there, but going from terrible -> arguably good at Endgame is better than going from terrible -> still kinda bad.

You're right, which is exactly why Lyre > Fiona.

I think you missed how Fiona is arguably good at endgame and Lyre is still kinda bad. I'm not sure if Red Fox of Fire is right, though Lyre needs to pull level 30 to have a chance. I guess since both basically get paragon forever it's doable, though. Still, Lyre misses out on the first player phase even in endgame, and while she starts at max gauge in 4-E-3 unless you kill deg really quickly Lyre is better served by using a gem at some point. Missing first turn or some later turn is missing a turn either way. Then there is Fiona's wishblade use, or even forged javelin for 2 range, and how even a level 30 Lyre only has 40 mt. (11.55 str, but that's more like 11.2 if we wanted Lyre to suck less in 3-4 and 3-7, so 11.2 or basically 22 transformed, and 18 mt for SS). Heck, Lyre is facing 35 mt until like 4-E-4 when she finally gets SS. Unless you were letting her get countered for all her fed kills, which Fiona wasn't being (not doubling, so kills on player phase mean no counter) and thus raising Fiona was easier because she didn't constantly need healing. If you had Lyre double for all her fed kills, then maybe 4-E-2 for SS, but she is still at S for 4-E-1, and at level 28 that's 10.5 str (remember bexp in 3-4) and 13 mt weapon, so 34 mt, or more accurately 33 or 35. 35 or 37 with a +mt support, but then Fiona likely matches avo since Lyre won't have a +avo support. Fiona gets a +18 mt silver weapon, so even 20/20/1 means 42 mt. Lots more. Against generals they are about the same if Lyre pulled 11 str or Fiona wins if Lyre only has 10, except Fiona doubles many of them by 20/20/6, so it could be a huge win for Fiona and she'll have 44 mt then. Also, Fiona could possibly have a +mt support, though with only Leo and Micaiah I admit it's unlikely (1 move in desert, and can't be carried, or goes supportless in 4-1/2 and 4-4/5, ouch)

I don't know who should be better, but I just had to point out issues I saw in the Lyre > Fiona argument.

Anyway, when you give back the energy drop Lyre starts doing better in part 4 again, but the energy drop is a pretty high cost, and I ignored the seraph robe too, or else Fiona would be more durable, too.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

Florete · August 10, 2009

Can they? 18/1 Nolan has 30 Atk/16 AS with a forged iron axe. xx/6 Zihark has 29 Atk/25 AS with a forged iron sword. Magic Fiona has 20 Atk and 12 AS by this point. Let's look at some enemies:

If Zihark is weakening, wtf is he doing with a forged Iron Sword?

1x Fighter lvl 17 Steel Axe: HP 34, Atk 29, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 51, DEF 11

He needs to be lowered to 9 HP with your atk stats for Fiona. Zihark with an Iron Sword can do it (whenever he got to --/6). A Strike Volug can do it. Iron Dagger Sothe should be able to do it. Hell, Tormod with Thunder can do it. Fuck, max Mag Micaiah with a full support and Thani can do it. Vika can also do it.

1x Myrmidon lvl 18 Steel Sword: HP 29, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 145, Avo 64, DEF 11

Base level Vika lowers him to one HP. Micaiah can still do it. Sothe with a Steel Dagger does it. Tormod with almost anything does it. Zihark does it if he doubles.

1x Soldier lvl 18 Javelin: HP 32, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 119, Avo 56, DEF 13

Steel Sword Zihark can now do it. Sothe can do it depending on hiw weapon. Tormod can still do it.

I'll skip the Archers because they're like the exact same as this guy only easier.

2x Wind Mage lvl 19 Elwind: HP 27, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 139, Avo 51, DEF 7

As you mentioned, Nolan does it. Tormod still does it. Micaiah can do it. Hell, level 16 Leo with a Steel Bow and full support does it.

Nolan + Fiona can't kill the fighter. Nolan + Fiona can't kill the myrmidon. Nolan + Fiona can't kill the soldier. Nolan + Fiona can't kill the archers. Nolan + Fiona can kill the wind mage. Nolan + Fiona can't kill the armour axe.
Zihark kills the fighter, myrmidon, soldier, the archers and the wind mages with out Fiona. Fiona + Zihark cannot kill the armour axe.

Heck, checking out this 25 Atk Volug and his 19 AS, you'll notice that Volug + Fiona can only kill the fighter. Volug kills the mages by himself.

I love how you only looked at 3 units. Shit, you didn't even include enemy Res, I had to look it up myself. Kill feeding Fiona is not so difficult at all.

Lyre also can use paragon before promotion,

1. Lyre doesn't promote

2. I already assumed it for both.

Lyre also has more chapters to catch up to the team,

A whole one more chapter, but there's a funny thing there. It's called the "obligatory deployment slots argument." Fiona is not booting out anyone better for 60% of her playtime. Lyre is booting someone out for 100% of her playtime (All of this pre part 4 of course). Fiona's still acquiring negative utility of course, but it's lessened.

Lyre also faces more enemies,

Not too many more, her durability still sucks, and she needs to steer clear from ranged enemies.

we also have an easier time feeding Lyre kills,

Lol?

we also have more bexp in part 3 than in part 1,

So? I wasn't dumping our load on Fiona. Besides, people in part 1 generally don't even want BEXP as much because they don't cap stats.

We can also have Lyre use olivi grasses and the clever strategy of untransforming her during periods which lack combat.

And I can skip all that for Fiona. Woohoo~

Fiona needing more to get futher than Lyre (as demonstrated before after I gave Lyre 0.83 levels per chapter and Fiona 2.8 levels per chapter and Lyre still won).

Lyre also is at a higher level trying to get her experience. Base level Lyre is a 20/14 Beorc, which is Shinon's base level for comparison, and Lyre doesn't fight any Laguz, and has transformation to worry about which cuts into her experience gain.

Yes, Lyre is performing so much worse than Fiona is. [/sarcasm]

Level and weapon please? Or are you just going to avoid it?

Saying 3-4RKOing is similar to 25RKOing is bullcrap. Especially since the GM's aren't reliably ORKOing thanks to either low spd (Haar/Titania/Oscar/Boyd/Soren/Rhys/Mordy) or low Atk (Shinon with crossbows/Oscar/Nephenee/Mist/Lethe).

And the DB is reliably ORKOing?

Heck, comparing Fiona's part 1 performance to Lyre part 3 performance:
she[Lyre] 3RKO's most things, 4RKO's SM's and 10RKO's Generals.

she[Fiona] 4-5RKO's fighters, 4RKO's Myrmidons, 5-6RKO's soldiers, 4-5RKO's archers, 2-3RKO's mages, 12-19RKO's armours.

... I'm still struggling to see how Lyre isn't > Fiona comparatively. Especially when Lyre also 2-3RKO's mages but takes 1-3 less rounds to kill Fighters/soldiers/archers and 2-9 less rounds to kill generals.

When we get to 4+RKOing enemies, I don't care if one is 4 and the other is 5. Neither is doing any better because both need kills set up for them to do anything. At least Fiona can be fed kills for the duration of the map and I've already shown how it's possible.

And you need to remember that "comparatively" goes against their team. Lyre's team actually has characters that can reliably ORKO (Ike, Shinon, crowned Gatrie, possibly Titania, Mia w/crits), while Fiona's team is mostly 2+RKOing, so Fiona isn't actually doing any worse in comparison to the team.

Well, that's still untrue.

You think a forged Iron Lance is more favoritism than an Energy Drop?

We can swap skills over in this game, meaning having a skill has little difference to not having one. The only advantage is not using capacity, but that doesn't matter if someone else wants it because they woudl appreciate the capacity loss for the skill. It's like saying Soren has an advantage over others because he has innate adept even though Mia/Shinon are better with it.

I know that, but the value of Adept most definitely can't be attributed to the value of Savior and Imbue. Adept takes units from having average offense to possibly above average. The majority of characters don't have enough Mag to effectively use Imbue very well, and Savior just isn't very useful in most scenarios anyway. In terms of these two characters, Fiona is more likely to keep Imbue than Lyre is to get it until her team gets one.

Just because someone has an earth affinity, doesn't necessarily make people more entitled to anotehr earth affinity. Take Ike and Oscar, we don't view that as a beneficial support because the avo is superfluous.

Yeah, but in this case, the avoid wouldn't be superfluous because of the enemies the DB faces and the low levels they'll be when they join up in part 4. In the end, Fiona still has a much better affinity than Lyre, which is an advantage.

1) Fiona can't use paragon before promoting once.

I know. I didn't assume it until her promotion.

2) You missed this, which was explaining why, even with paragon, she struggles to get 12 levels per chapter:

From there, we need to give her ~12 levels per chapter if we want her to be 20/20/6 by 4-E-1. Even with paragon, this is incredibly hard for a unit that 8-12RKO's Halbs, 6-7RKO's warriors, 4-6RKO's SM's, 6-8RKO's snipers, 22RKO'ing general - at best - and 4RKO'ing mages in 4-2 (Using my below early part 4 statistics) whilst getting ORKO'ed by 25 enemies on the map (Though this is without the seraph robe, I excluded Lyre's energy drop). Lyre is offensively twice as good as Fiona because of doubling alone, and then Lyre can easily take an extra hit from these guys thanks to her Hp lead + she isn't doubled. Getting a 20/20/4 unit 3 levels per chapter when their 3RKO'ing and not being killed in one hit is easier to do than getting a 20/3 unit 12 levels per chapter when their ~6+RKO'ing and being killed by things in one hit.

And you missed this:

and will also level up amazingly fast, so her issues disappear eventually, because while Fiona is leveling like a 20/whatever Beorc, Lyre is leveling like a 20/20/4 Beorc, meaning with Paragon Fiona can practically get a level per kill, which just needs to be set up for a bit

Fiona can practically hit an enemy and get half of a level right there. If she kills, level up.

LOng story short: Fiona sucks ass and will struggle to get that kind of level even with paragon.

I can say the same for Lyre.

Shame her cap offsets it a bit. Plus, she's overleveleld in it as-is, meaning her speed is less. You cannot seriously be suggesting that Fiona can pull an Atk lead so large it offsets the fact that Lyre doubles and Fiona doesn't. If you are, I would laugh.

Pre endgame maybe not, or at least pre 4-5, but once Fiona becomes a Silver Knight her durability + Sol + Spd growth start to kick in and make her better.

Yes, lagus "Kills" like the ones she fails to get. Level 13 Fiona with a seraph robe, 'C' Jill has 34 HP/11 Def/12 AS.

Level 13 at 3-6? Are you even using her?

Do you know how much exp you get through missing? 0.

Rofl. It's 1.

Since you seem to like hyping Fiona's suck while pretending part 3 Lyre isn't even that bad, let me say something else. Without an Energy Drop, Lyre is starting with 22 atk. That's base level Mist with Florete, so Mist will be better offensively when Lyre shows up, because even if she didn't get a +Str, her affinity gives her atk. Base level Heather can take a Steel Dagger and beat Lyre's offense. In other words, if we took the utility value from two of the worst combat units in the game and tiered them like that, they'd still beat Lyre. And this is her own team, so it matters.

Hell, I could set up a conditional debate where Reyson can't use Galdr and he'd still win because of Magic cards and Blessing and Canto.

When we're comparing two units as god awful as Lyre and Fiona, I don't even care who's relatively "better" since both are too worthless and are simply the worst units on their team. What I care about is what it takes to get them somewhat going and where they end up, and since that's easier with Fiona due to not being out of commission half the time and actually providing some positive (Earth affinity and stuff), that's how I come to the conclusion of Fiona > Lyre.

Another note is that at least investing a stat booster into a laguz gets you a greater return than most.

What does that have to do with anything? I already gave her an Energy Drop. Wanna throw another one in there?

Lyre's leveling at the speed of most of your team at the time (she's leveling what Oscar was back when part 3 started),

Dude, that's bad. If she didn't suck horribly we wouldn't care, but if that were the case we wouldn't be having this discussion. Being the worst unit on the team and having possibly above average experience gain is bad.

all she needs is 1 speed to start doubling like Lethe.

I gave her that. It didn't help much, especially since Lethe herself runs into some issues doubling.

Jaybee · August 11, 2009

IMO, Nailah should be between Mia and Shinon since the units in the middle have way more availability and can either fly or are integral members of the GMs in fighting. Gatrie's an uber tank, Mia's the queen of crits, and both can hold themselves fairly well. Nailah, on the other hand, is near invincible, but is around for such a short time. She's only above Shinon because of lol enemy phase, though if Nailah gets 2-ranged she's screwed as well.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Joshybear25

Zkirsche · August 11, 2009

Why are we sandbagging Zihark by not giving him a forge? Whatever, I admit it's easy for either to get fed kills. Though Lyre can actually use paragon before part 4 (Sorry, i worded that badly), and whilst you included paragon for both, Fox, you can't for Fiona's pre part 4, which is why I said it was easier for Lyre to catch up. And i still say that 4-5RKOing compared to 2RKOing > 5-25RKOing compared to 3RKO'ing.

And the DB is reliably ORKOing?

wtf has that got to do with anything?

And you need to remember that "comparatively" goes against their team. Lyre's team actually has characters that can reliably ORKO (Ike, Shinon, crowned Gatrie, possibly Titania, Mia w/crits), while Fiona's team is mostly 2+RKOing, so Fiona isn't actually doing any worse in comparison to the team.

Shinon has fail enemy phase. Noone ORKO's SM's save Mia, Mia relies on crit too much to reliably ORKO.

You think a forged Iron Lance is more favoritism than an Energy Drop?

No, but Lyre can use paragon.

I know that, but the value of Adept most definitely can't be attributed to the value of Savior and Imbue. Adept takes units from having average offense to possibly above average. The majority of characters don't have enough Mag to effectively use Imbue very well, and Savior just isn't very useful in most scenarios anyway. In terms of these two characters, Fiona is more likely to keep Imbue than Lyre is to get it until her team gets one.

Even though Lyre will use it for more chapters and has higher mag than Fiona? Lolwhy? Then there's units like Titania who has decent mag etcetera. Also, if Saviour is rarely useful, then surely it's barely an advantage anyway. We could just sell it for money.

Yeah, but in this case, the avoid wouldn't be superfluous because of the enemies the DB faces and the low levels they'll be when they join up in part 4. In the end, Fiona still has a much better affinity than Lyre, which is an advantage.

I'm sorry, I missed the meeting where it was decided that 15 avo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 def.

and will also level up amazingly fast, so her issues disappear eventually, because while Fiona is leveling like a 20/whatever Beorc, Lyre is leveling like a 20/20/4 Beorc, meaning with Paragon Fiona can practically get a level per kill, which just needs to be set up for a bit

The majority of the enemies are around level 7 in 4-2. A 20/3 Fiona gets 22 exp per attack because (47-23)/2 + 10 = 22. Per kill it's 22 + 24 + 15 = 61 exp. So to get that ~12 levels per chapter, Fiona needs to make ~9 kills + 3 attacks, or ~5 kills + 25 attacks. Considering that an enemy phase for Fiona is practically suicide, this isn't really possible.

Level 13 at 3-6? Are you even using her?

I've given her 2 levels per chapter. that's very generous.

I'll edit this in a sec.

Narga_Rocks · August 11, 2009

Why are we sandbagging Zihark by not giving him a forge?

Because ~7 exp isn't significantly better than ~2? What's the point letting him kill something when you are attempting to train Fiona?

Whatever, I admit it's easy for either to get fed kills. Though Lyre can actually use paragon before part 4 (Sorry, i worded that badly), and whilst you included paragon for both, Fox, you can't for Fiona's pre part 4, which is why I said it was easier for Lyre to catch up. And i still say that 4-5RKOing compared to 2RKOing > 5-25RKOing compared to 3RKO'ing.

I'd imagine paragon in 3-13 is rather easy for Fiona. The real question is 3-12. Besides, those #RKOing is after giving Lyre the energy drop. I know you were just responding to Red Fox of Fire, but did you read the numbers I gave for a dropless Lyre? Not good. We could give Fiona a drop and max the mt on her forge and her numbers would significantly improve. Why am I not trying? She needs it less than Lyre does. That alone should say something.

And the DB is reliably ORKOing?

wtf has that got to do with anything?

Pretty sure the point is training Fiona doesn't hold us back too much. At least, not any worse than Lyre is doing. And Lyre is doing it for an extra chapter (more chapters of babying) all while getting much less exp and not really gaining much str or def in her levels. Heck, 1-7 is small, 3-12 is short (cancels 3-E), babying Lyre is a much more involved process.

And you need to remember that "comparatively" goes against their team. Lyre's team actually has characters that can reliably ORKO (Ike, Shinon, crowned Gatrie, possibly Titania, Mia w/crits), while Fiona's team is mostly 2+RKOing, so Fiona isn't actually doing any worse in comparison to the team.

Shinon has fail enemy phase. Noone ORKO's SM's save Mia, Mia relies on crit too much to reliably ORKO.

Mia with Adept and a critforge has >70% chance of killing warriors/halbs/snipers/paladins. Not sure if she 3HKOs dragonmasters, but wyrmslayer is ORKO anyway. Generals are 4HKO by mid part 3, maybe sooner, so she's still pulling around 35% to 40% chance to kill them with just the critforge. To train Lyre, she can use a normal sword, but unless we want to make her offence worse the entire map you can't just not let Adept activate for a few attacks. Shinon is less good than certain other units because of his enemy phase, doesn't mean he can't do pretty well on the player phase. Plus all the GMs we are using are trying to gain exp, so it isn't even remotely the same thing as forcing Zihark to use a normal sword to help train Fiona in part 1.

You think a forged Iron Lance is more favoritism than an Energy Drop?

No, but Lyre can use paragon.

Not until 3-11. 3-E is kinda short, like 6 turns or something, and Fiona could promote during 3-6, or you could just give up and seal her for 3-12 if she's like lvl 18. Or give her a fair amount of bexp to combat all that Lyre took in order to consistently double. There are ways to make sure Fiona has paragon for 3-12 and 3-13. If you send over the paragon to the GMs with Ilyana, you are basically giving up on any of the DB members reaching a respectable level in part 4, so that's a high cost for Lyre getting paragon in the rest of her chapters.

I know that, but the value of Adept most definitely can't be attributed to the value of Savior and Imbue. Adept takes units from having average offense to possibly above average. The majority of characters don't have enough Mag to effectively use Imbue very well, and Savior just isn't very useful in most scenarios anyway. In terms of these two characters, Fiona is more likely to keep Imbue than Lyre is to get it until her team gets one.

Even though Lyre will use it for more chapters and has higher mag than Fiona? Lolwhy? Then there's units like Titania who has decent mag etcetera. Also, if Saviour is rarely useful, then surely it's barely an advantage anyway. We could just sell it for money.

Why? It's free. I've already said why being free means more for her than other skills for others. Same with vantage for Mia. Vantage isn't actually very good in this game, so I really don't think it's worth 10 capacity. Fortunately, Mia gets it for free. Same with Saviour. It can be nice at times, so it's an advantage for Fiona, but is it really worth the 10 capacity others pay for it? Imbue is worth 15, so is it really worth Titania not being able to use anything else but Miracle? As for Lyre, she has higher mag for part 3, but Fiona catches up eventually. I can't really defend Imbue as easily as saviour.

Yeah, but in this case, the avoid wouldn't be superfluous because of the enemies the DB faces and the low levels they'll be when they join up in part 4. In the end, Fiona still has a much better affinity than Lyre, which is an advantage.

I'm sorry, I missed the meeting where it was decided that 15 avo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 def.

Depends on who you are. Facing hit rates in the low 30s suddenly dropping to the teens is better than 2 def. Facing hit rates in the 60s dropping to the 40s is not better than 2 def. Don't know how that plays out for Fiona and Lyre and their partners all the time.

and will also level up amazingly fast, so her issues disappear eventually, because while Fiona is leveling like a 20/whatever Beorc, Lyre is leveling like a 20/20/4 Beorc, meaning with Paragon Fiona can practically get a level per kill, which just needs to be set up for a bit

The majority of the enemies are around level 7 in 4-2. A 20/3 Fiona gets 22 exp per attack because (47-23)/2 + 10 = 22. Per kill it's 22 + 24 + 15 = 61 exp. So to get that ~12 levels per chapter, Fiona needs to make ~9 kills + 3 attacks, or ~5 kills + 25 attacks. Considering that an enemy phase for Fiona is practically suicide, this isn't really possible.

Was this multiplying by 2?

Level 13 at 3-6? Are you even using her?

I've given her 2 levels per chapter. that's very generous.

I'll edit this in a sec.

Well, no bexp boosting despite what Lyre needs off the bat, likely not killing something almost every turn. I'm not sure how much exp Fiona should get, so I'll leave that up to Red Fox of Fire.

Oh, something against Fiona, there isn't exactly very many enemies in 1-7, so I'm not quite sure how many kills we can feed her.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

Zkirsche · August 11, 2009

I'd imagine paragon in 3-13 is rather easy for Fiona. The real question is 3-12. Besides, those #RKOing is after giving Lyre the energy drop. I know you were just responding to Red Fox of Fire, but did you read the numbers I gave for a dropless Lyre? Not good. We could give Fiona a drop and max the mt on her forge and her numbers would significantly improve. Why am I not trying? She needs it less than Lyre does. That alone should say something.

I accepted that she needs an energy drop. But i was planning to replt to you, hence the whole "I'll edit this in a sec" thing at the end.

Fiona also desperately needs that seraph robe Redfox gave her, otherwise she is easy pickings.

Mia with Adept and a critforge has >70% chance of killing warriors/halbs/snipers/paladins. Not sure if she 3HKOs dragonmasters, but wyrmslayer is ORKO anyway. Generals are 4HKO by mid part 3, maybe sooner, so she's still pulling around 35% to 40% chance to kill them with just the critforge. To train Lyre, she can use a normal sword, but unless we want to make her offence worse the entire map you can't just not let Adept activate for a few attacks. Shinon is less good than certain other units because of his enemy phase, doesn't mean he can't do pretty well on the player phase. Plus all the GMs we are using are trying to gain exp, so it isn't even remotely the same thing as forcing Zihark to use a normal sword to help train Fiona in part 1.

Adept has a 51% chance of activating anyway, which is quite good. So yeah, we can train Lyre up.

What? What? Since when did Zihark/Nolan/Aran/Sothe/Micaiah stop caring about levelling up? Thier not Nailah. Their not gods, they need the level-up's to survive in part 4. The GM's need much less to do so.

Not until 3-11. 3-E is kinda short, like 6 turns or something, and Fiona could promote during 3-6, or you could just give up and seal her for 3-12 if she's like lvl 18. Or give her a fair amount of bexp to combat all that Lyre took in order to consistently double. There are ways to make sure Fiona has paragon for 3-12 and 3-13. If you send over the paragon to the GMs with Ilyana, you are basically giving up on any of the DB members reaching a respectable level in part 4, so that's a high cost for Lyre getting paragon in the rest of her chapters.

By giving Fiona paragon in 3-13/3-12, we're stopping other units getting it too.

Why? It's free. I've already said why being free means more for her than other skills for others. Same with vantage for Mia. Vantage isn't actually very good in this game, so I really don't think it's worth 10 capacity. Fortunately, Mia gets it for free. Same with Saviour. It can be nice at times, so it's an advantage for Fiona, but is it really worth the 10 capacity others pay for it? Imbue is worth 15, so is it really worth Titania not being able to use anything else but Miracle? As for Lyre, she has higher mag for part 3, but Fiona catches up eventually. I can't really defend Imbue as easily as saviour.

Doesn't matter, Lyre can still use it better in part 3. Thus it should be transferred to her as Lyre appreciates teh defensive boost.

Depends on who you are. Facing hit rates in the low 30s suddenly dropping to the teens is better than 2 def. Facing hit rates in the 60s dropping to the 40s is not better than 2 def. Don't know how that plays out for Fiona and Lyre and their partners all the time.

Considering the DB face high Hit laguz, the def matters more.

Was this multiplying by 2?

Yep.

Well, no bexp boosting despite what Lyre needs off the bat, likely not killing something almost every turn. I'm not sure how much exp Fiona should get, so I'll leave that up to Red Fox of Fire.

Ok, let's give her enougth bexp to get her from level 9 to level 11 (2100. There is less bexp in part 1, though, and the units need it more). Enemies in 1-7 are level 15 ish, so Fiona gets 12 exp per attack, 32 exp per kill (lol). A level is 1 kill + 6 attacks or 2 kills + 3 attacks. Okay, Okay, perhaps level 13 was harsh. Level 15 shouldn't be though, and considering what was lost through the bexp, it's probably similar to a level 13/0 Fiona is anyway.

grandjackal · August 11, 2009

Supports I guess could factor in...Lyre can supply someone with a delicious thunder affinity. You might say Earth is better, but when exactly is she kicking in a support? She doesn't have a lot of time, nor a fast build-up with any DB units that stick around. Lyre's got two, Kyza and Ranulf. Ranulf would love the extra durability, and Kyza would love the faster defensive boost. Granted, KYza sucks, but a support is better than none. Besides, part 3? How much is Earth really helping anyone? It barely is able to help Nolan and Zihark, who are double-goddamn-earth. Lyre's defensive boosts for the GM would be quite a bit more definitive.

Minor point I know, but...

OMG it's a tier list

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