Doom103 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141958 READ!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) Depending on what you would deem a "glitch," wavedashing might qualify, and the argument for FC seems kind of weak. It's not like being a non game-breaking glitch justifies its removal from standard play. I couldn't care less if they called aerials glitches; what incenses me is that some people assume that glitches should not be used under any circumstance ever. That thread isn't really new anyway... Edited January 5, 2009 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 That link says that L-cancelling might've been a glitch in 64. It wasn't. It also says that float-cancelling might have been a glitch, but considering people used it in the original releases of Brawl (when Bowser had flame-cancelling), they would've taken it out if it was unintentional. Its just a different form of a DJC, which isn't a glitch. It also says Dash Dancing was removed, which is a false statement. As for the B-moves that get cancelled when you land, it's only moves that are supposed to have minimal lag anyways (Fox's lasers, Samoo's missiles, etc.). They're right about wavedashing, it's just the mechanics of the game, and the competitive scene found ways to make it extremely useful. Now then, not ALL of Melee's AT's aren't glitches. For example, Samus' super wavedash, superduper wavedash, and super tether were all glitches (I'm not sure whether or not her extendo-chain was a glitch, but I'm guessing it wasn't). Also, Ness' yo-yo glitch is obviously a glitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnell Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 And about wavedashing, the makers of the game said they found out about wavedashing before it was released. They just chose not to take it out after it was found. Then in Brawl, they found that people who exploited techniques like that were becoming overwhelmingly better than those who didn't. So they eliminated wavedashing in Brawl to help level the playing field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I agree with the title, and that's probably all there is to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 And about wavedashing, the makers of the game said they found out about wavedashing before it was released. They just chose not to take it out after it was found. Then in Brawl, they found that people who exploited techniques like that were becoming overwhelmingly better than those who didn't. So they eliminated wavedashing in Brawl to help level the playing field. And that is the story of how they ruined Brawl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguu Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 And that is the story of how they ruined Brawl Right. So getting rid of one thing that isn't really necessary ruined the entirety of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Right. So getting rid of one thing that isn't really necessary ruined the entirety of the game. THey took out decent movement, comboes and makde everybody recover at lik 400% Ruined, but Brawl isn't banned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguu Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 THey took out decent movement, comboes and makde everybody recover at lik 400%Ruined, but Brawl isn't banned The post you quoted was about wave dashing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 L-Cancelling is far more important than Wavedashing. Also, people need to stop caring whether they are glitches or not. Believing they are glitches is not a viable enough argument to get them banned in tournaments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 The post you quoted was about wave dashing. No, hitstun and L canceling too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 No, hitstun and L canceling too No, it was only about wavedashing. They didn't necessarily "ruin" brawl, they just marketed it to the people who QQ'd over getting JV 5-stocked by their friend who learned how to waveshine after watching a few Youtube videos. I find it hilarious, though, that Sakurai wanted to make the Brawl character roster more balanced than Melee's, but it ended up being even less balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 If the game's physics engine is poorly planned enough to allow for "an unintended result of the game's mechanism" which clearly violates normal physics, then it's a design flaw—which is arguably worse than a glitch. The fact that it was left in the game after its discovery in beta does not excuse it from being such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonez Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) Seriously wavedashing isn't that broken. It's easy to do if you sit down and try it out for 10 minutes. I use it alot lol, but mainly its use is for mindgames and spacing. You can space and mindgame with little to no use of wavedashing. Plus characters like Peach and Link don't need wavedashing in their game at all and Peach is definately competitively viable. Edited January 6, 2009 by Clonez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krevin Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 If the game's physics engine is poorly planned enough to allow for "an unintended result of the game's mechanism" which clearly violates normal physics, then it's a design flaw—which is arguably worse than a glitch. The fact that it was left in the game after its discovery in beta does not excuse it from being such. It doesn't violate normal physics. And there's actually no hard-evidence that it was discovered during beta and left in, but the rumors about it say that it was left in because it could prove potentially useful for the competitive players. Seriously wavedashing isn't that broken. It's easy to do if you sit down and try it out for 10 minutes. I use it alot lol, but mainly its use is for mindgames and spacing. You can space and mindgame with little to no use of wavedashing. Plus characters like Peach and Link don't need wavedashing in their game at all and Peach is definately competitively viable. Link can't wavedash, he just lands on the ground. Wavedashing isn't necessary for Peach for the same reason it's minimally necessary for Jigglypuff, they both focus almost entirely on air-game close to the ground. Wavedashing really isn't that special, though. Its only significant uses are cancelling jumps (and since jumps cancel running and shining, this makes it so you can perform both of those without ending lag) and adding a bit more range to certain moves (mostly dsmashes and ftilts, or any of Weegee's moves). That, and it can be helpful for moving backwards as some characters, which helps for ledgestealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonez Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Link does have a wavedash but it's short as hell and it's almost useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) No, it was only about wavedashing. They didn't necessarily "ruin" brawl, they just marketed it to the people who QQ'd over getting JV 5-stocked by their friend who learned how to waveshine after watching a few Youtube videos. I find it hilarious, though, that Sakurai wanted to make the Brawl character roster more balanced than Melee's, but it ended up being even less balanced. *sigh* sadly, if they're friend gets JV 5-stocked by someone who just learned how to waveshine, I would also assume that the friend just plain sucks because Melee is more about smarts than tech. Aniki, a link player from Japan is pretty good and would do pretty well against Ken doesn't wavedash. Azen, a player from the US relies more on mindgames than tech skills and does better than most people. M2K is technical, but he's also VERY smart and tends to know what you're going to do ahead of time. People who say that just because someone learned something like waveshine will make them infinitely better is a lie. It does make them better and gives them more options, but it's primarily about how you approach the game. However, every pro these days has to know wavedashing and L-Canceling. Anyway, it's old news that the ATs aren't glitches. Wavedashing is just a byproduct of the air dodging mechanic where you gain instant momentum from air dodging, and where you slide on the ground from momentum whether if it's from being hit or whatever (like how when Marth d-tilts you at a low %, you slide back from the hit) Edited January 6, 2009 by Rei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Uggggg Link does need wavedashing, idk why you would think he doesn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 No one needs wavedashing. Well, maybe ICs and Luigi (and Fox and Falco if they want to combo), but basically every character that doesn't rely on the WD as his primary form of movement can substitute stuff like pivoting, dash dancing, dash cancelling, etc. to serve as most of WD's functions. There's still stuff you can't do without it, but the WD isn't a requisite for smart play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 UgggggLink does need wavedashing, idk why you would think he doesn't Other than the the fact no one was designed to wave-dash in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 No one needs wavedashing. Well, maybe ICs and Luigi (and Fox and Falco if they want to combo), but basically every character that doesn't rely on the WD as his primary form of movement can substitute stuff like pivoting, dash dancing, dash cancelling, etc. to serve as most of WD's functions. There's still stuff you can't do without it, but the WD isn't a requisite for smart play. The meta games was built around it Wavedashing is ones movement to an extent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 No... lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 L-Cancelling is far more important than Wavedashing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom103 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 No... lol. lol yeah most of the cast is built around it Falco and fox are high tier because of it Mewtwo doesn't fall in the negative tier because of it L canceling is more important for some people, but over all wavedashing is more important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 No, L-Canceling is more important. Without it, most of the combos would be gone. Ken combo would be gone, Falco pillar combos would be gone, Fox drillshine will be gone as well as comboing most aerials into a shine at low%s, Falcon would lose some of his sexy combos that require multiple aerials, I could go on and on. I can live without wavedashing just fine. A lot of people can, and people like Falcon and Peach don't need it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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