H5 Tier list topic

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wendell has a base stat lead, incredible join time lead, incredible tome level lead (instant Excalibur), and thinks to coming so early, his high speed actually matters (won't get doubled until the late game).

Boah has... One more Magic base and what Wendell's staff level will (or will be close to) by this time. His staff level is what makes Boah what he is, but by no means is he beating Wendell.

Join time is the biggest factor here as to Doga being higher, but a lot of Roger's strengths seem to help make him a decent unit regardless.

Then there's the fact that Wendell starts with a D in staves so it's very likely for him to have C or B in staves by then. This guy's arguments just can't be taken seriously.

[grandjackal]

Seems slow. Draug would rather fight some Horseman for some good EXP as opposed to wasting his time walking up to that noob AK and missing some action =\

I wanna play through the game good sir, not level grind! Your best pirate bets here for that noob AK is Draug, Cord and/or Barst, whichever can pack a hammer can (if Barst has a B axe by now, silver axe works well too). Either way when you reach the island, some reinforcements come out, but when you kill the boss, the reinforcements will stop, which you can either A. let Lena warp Marth to the throne if things start to get hairy, or B. once you clear out whatever enemies are left you can simply have Marth stroll there, and it ends the chapter that much quicker. All the reinforcements the level can offer is more than you really need (I do this every time, I've had absolutely no trouble getting through the game), and in return the chapter ends that much faster which works with efficiency. The whole point of this list.

Besides...How cool is that!? It's so fucking commando!

Wendell has a base stat lead, incredible join time lead, incredible tome level lead (instant Excalibur), and thinks to coming so early, his high speed actually matters (won't get doubled until the late game).

Boah has... One more Magic base and what Wendell's staff level will (or will be close to) by this time. His staff level is what makes Boah what he is, but by no means is he beating Wendell.

Chainey, come on...You taking his argument seriously?

Join time is the biggest factor here as to Doga being higher, but a lot of Roger's strengths seem to help make him a decent unit regardless.

Good point, Roger's starting stats are pretty good...

I'd still say pirate commando use is still pretty nifty early on though (chapter 4, chapter 6's rivers, fucking PYARTHI where Roger is nowhere near the pirate Draug will be).

Hmmm...Perhaps it is pretty close...

Reply to Dondon- The next chapter is Pyarthi, filled with killface 2-rounding pirates, of which Roger does not want to fuck with. I'd much prefer chip damage over possible accuracy problems E rank axes would bring. Besides, the better chance at speed will help him out in the long run.

Also, why the fuck would I quote Reikken when he hasn't even said as much as a peep in this topic?

Edited July 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Colonel M]

Only set-ups that Roger has:

Hunter -> Warrior, which is inferior to Fighter -> Hero.

Hunter -> General which is inbetween Warrior and Hero IMO

Fighter -> Hero which is statistically superior (and easier to build upon).

[Rodykitty]

I am educating the n00b.

[dondon151]

Some people don't deserve to be responded to because they can't learn, bro.

Reply to Dondon- The next chapter is Pyarthi, filled with killface 2-rounding pirates, of which Roger does not want to fuck with. I'd much prefer chip damage over possible accuracy problems E rank axes would bring. Besides, the better chance at speed will help him out in the long run.

Of course. Then either way, Roger loses to Draug. Keeping Roger as hunter only delays him getting higher axe rank, which I guess is a tradeoff for 15% more spd growth.

ps don't capitalize my name

Also, why the fuck would I quote Reikken when he hasn't even said as much as a peep in this topic?

No, I mean like people quoting Reikken's argument for how not having enemy phase isn't that bad. A2ZOMG does it often (but he kisses the ground that Reikken walks on) and soundecho did it in the current Astrid vs. Makalov debate in the FE9 tier list. I suppose smash iterated his own version of it in the FE8 tier list.

Edited July 5, 2009 by dondon151

[Rodykitty]

Not having an enemy phase is bad, but considering that most characters have such a crappy enemy phase anyway, having a superior player phase actually means something on H5. I think this is the case at least, because several characters rose up on the tier list on bow using classes alone.

This doesn't necessarily mean Hunter > Fighter, though.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I wanna play through the game good sir, not level grind! Your best pirate bets here for that noob AK is Draug, Cord and/or Barst, whichever can pack a hammer can (if Barst has a B axe by now, silver axe works well too). Either way when you reach the island, some reinforcements come out, but when you kill the boss, the reinforcements will stop, which you can either A. let Lena warp Marth to the throne if things start to get hairy, or B. once you clear out whatever enemies are left you can simply have Marth stroll there, and it ends the chapter that much quicker. All the reinforcements the level can offer is more than you really need (I do this every time, I've had absolutely no trouble getting through the game), and in return the chapter ends that much faster which works with efficiency. The whole point of this list.

Besides...How cool is that!? It's so fucking commando!

Read this closely, specially the bolded:

The steel sword cavaliers should be there and attack the on turn 3 with an Armor Knight, 2 Archers and Roger following them nearby. Finish off these cavaliers and don't place units in the range of Roger's group if doing so will kill them. Finish off Roger's group and... you're done with what you need on this chapter. Seriously, none of the other Cavaliers or Horsemen will move until you're in their range and the other group will move if you're about 1 space away from their range (and even if they do move, they're easy to deal with). You can either take on these guys or go for the Boss.

You're hyping yet again. Pirate is completely unnecessary for this and for the purpose you just mentioned, you're slowing the character down.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Trust me: the 15% Spd growth isn't worth it. Pondering left and right, I almost think that Warrior!Roger is the least effective, though barely.

20/1 Hero!Roger - 39.3 HP | 18.0 Str | 1.0 Mag | 14.8 Skl | 19.9 Spd | 14.0 Luck | 9.3 Def | 3.0 Res 
20/1 Warrior!Roger - 37.7 HP | 16.2 Str | 0.0 Mag | 6.8 Skl | 18.0 Spd | 14.0 Luck | 8.0 Def | 1.0 Res

General-wise discussion: 20/5 Roger has 43 HP | 19 Def, seems about right for Braves, and he's quaded by the DracoKnights with 18 AS as well as the Pegasi with 20 in C21 if he's that level at that point. The good news is his Spd is barely passing, and I mean barely. 14.4 is about the time he has at 20/5, which means if he can roll on the right side in C20 and C20X he can come out with 15 AS which at least prevents the DracoKnights from quading him. Also, his Def should jump to 20. Then it'll require a Speedwing to at least prevent the 20 AS Dracos and Pegasi from doubling him and unfortunately falls prey to the Snipers and Hero quad-wise, though the Hero might plop lol4 damage or even none at that point. Sniper might hurt.

I dunno, the General and Warrior are iffy classes, but statistically Hero will always be superior, so Fighter > Hunter. Just clarification to the subject.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Whatever, either way I said Draug is better regardless. Whatever speed issues Roger may have are gone for Draug by now. End o story.

[Rodykitty]

I decided to get rid of Mid tier again.

[Colonel M]

Whatever, either way I said Draug is better regardless. Whatever speed issues Roger may have are gone for Draug by now. End o story.

Again, I was clarifying that Hunter -> W/e is not his best route despite the growth. You gain a hell of a lot more with Fighter -> Hero then Hunter (Axe rank, Enemy Phase, semi-easy Sword rank to build up with Devil Sword access, etc).

EDIT: Some things to ask / suggest to argue:

• Why is Wrys =/= Gordon on the list? I'm thinking that it falls back to not being active in one chapter, but he's doing roughly the same thing as the Captain is later on: healbot.
  
• Matthis needs to go a little bit lower, I'll get toward Wrys vs. Matthis later if Wrys isn't moved up. Not going to try a whole lot.
  
• Anyone think Jeorge > Paola is viable? While Jeorge needs a lot of training as well to stay stable lategame (like --/20 figures), being a Sniper helps him out. He just needs a Speedwing tossed on him and he's doubling most things, though I'd likely argue his utility moreso than his possible lategame.
  

Edited July 5, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

I wasn't aware the Hunter path was about growth. IIRC the reason it was even suggested is because it allowed a safer way to level up.

I am still a believer in Fighter, but I'm pretty sure that's why the Hunter setup exists for him (and Dolph).

Why is Wrys =/= Gordon on the list? I'm thinking that it falls back to not being active in one chapter, but he's doing roughly the same thing as the Captain is later on: healbot.

Stats alone ensure they are not equal. If anything, it's possible that their positions will get switched if Gordon is getting doubled by things Wrys is not. Edited July 5, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Stats alone ensure they are not equal. If anything, it's possible that their positions will get switched if Gordon is getting doubled by things Wrys is not.

Chapter 4's archers come to mind.

[Colonel M]

Chapter 4's archers come to mind.

Make that everyone in C4. Wrys starts with 6 Spd while Gordin is 3-4 pending if he got his Spd point.

Then again Gordon has chip damage early on when it's appreciated.

[grandjackal]

Make that everyone in C4. Wrys starts with 6 Spd while Gordin is 3-4 pending if he got his Spd point.

Then again Gordon has chip damage early on when it's appreciated.

Archers have 8 AS...

[Colonel M]

I was backing up that everyone doubles Gordon, not Wrys.

Hunter and Horseman take hold of Wrys, but they take hold of a lot of units at this point in time.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Positions swapped. Suddenly Machis dropping seems that much more likely.

[grandjackal]

Thinking it over with the new way the list works, I'd say it's unfortunate, but Matthis probably has to return to low. I'd see him above Raddy.

Actually, if Matthis is dropping, Gordon's going down with him.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Rodykitty]

Actually no, Matthis isn't going to drop.

[Capracanis]

Then there's the fact that Wendell starts with a D in staves so it's very likely for him to have C or B in staves by then. This guy's arguments just can't be taken seriously.

Of course they can. I gave him the speed thing as wel as the fact that leveling Boah would be a bitch, but his staves are higher and if you expect Wendell's staves to be C or B by the time you meet Boah, then where's he levelling off of? If he's a healer or the main healer, he'll only be about level...what...5-ish? In which case Boah at lv1 isn't really that far behind. Boah also has better skill, and accuracy fucking matters in H5. I've fonud I kmiss a hell of alot more at 90%+ in H5 than any other mode.

[Rodykitty]

He'll be closer to level 10, due to how fast Healing Staves can level up a character. Wendell begins with a D in Staves, so he's guaranteed at least a C by the time Boah joins.

And even if Boah isn't far behind, there isn't any way he's winning against Wendell's early utility, and they'll be able to share the same mid-late game utility.

[Dat Nick]

Boah also has better skill, and accuracy fucking matters in H5.

not really?

I've fonud I kmiss a hell of alot more at 90%+ in H5 than any other mode.

That's bad luck then, not 90%s magically missing more.

[dondon151]

Stop entitling him with responses, holy crap. He won't and can't learn.

[Colonel M]

Yes, accuracy matters when Avoid is only about 10 for most enemies and its negated by high hit rates for weapons and the Skill stat. [/sarcasm]

Can we talk about something else, like getting Bord a bit higher? The Hunter -> General seems pretty safe of a setup, and his earlygame isn't beyond terrible.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Colonel M

[Capracanis]

Stop entitling him with responses, holy crap. He won't and can't learn.

Man, just because I play differently, doesn't mean I'm an idiot. I beat it my own way. You're just not open minded.

Yes, accuracy matters when Avoid is only about 10 for most enemies and its negated by high hit rates for weapons and the Skill stat.

Can we talk about something else, like getting Bord a bit higher? The Hunter -> General seems pretty safe of a setup, and his earlygame isn't beyond terrible.

Considering Bord's speed is garbage and his growth in speed as General is 0 (though he does receive a boost of 4 pts in speed if he goes from Knight-> General, I'dd say Bord should stay low. Bord comes with C level axes which is useful around the start if you get him a Killer from the online shop. Since speed does matter, and as Colonel said avoid/accuracy is important when the usual avoid is about 10, Bord shouldn't even be used since he'll get doubled early in-game as well as more later when barves show up. He may get some good defence and Health Stats but is leveling him with a 0% chance of speed going up really worth it? And thanks to Luck's effect in terms of avoid being halved in this game, he's pretty much useless.

Now, Cord going Hunter -> General I can see, since he has the speed needed to survive. He may not have all of the Luck but as previously stated, it doesn't play that big of a rule until you're trying to dodge a Swdmstr.