dondon151 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I never use fighter Ogma and I honestly see no way that it's better than merc Ogma. Other than 1-2 range after a period of crappy offense and never being able to double ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 Back to business. Since Jeorge vs. Ymir is currently controversial, let's start with easier issues to solve. I think Ymir > Bord definitely. He's not spending half of the game wanting level ups Of course, the same can easily be said about Wrys and Gordon too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I don't know. While Ymir gets the award for not needing a mass amount of concentration of levels, Bord actually becomes something really good because of it. Mid-game tanking is a nice thing to have, and you've seen it: as early as C10 and not taking many hits to go down is pretty good for a non-Zag / Wolf / Darros. Then we have to deal how Ymir is under circumstances where the team is "killface", per-se, and he does lack a few things like AS for a short time. Magic Spd numbers: - 20 to double some Paladins - 21 to double all Paladins; prevent some (if not all) Mage Mamkutes from doubling you - 22 to double most DracoKnights in C21 - 23 to prevent being doubled by Fire Mamkutes - 24 to double DracoKnights / Pegasi - 25 to double all Heroes / Snipers / Swordmasters (lol 24x) Taking a Speedwing is all about he needs to kickstart himself with a Poleaxe, but I find it close. It's being awesome but not the "greatest" of starts vs. being decent as a filler. I like Ymir, but all I'm going to say is that Bord is probably going to rise eventually with such a setup. I almost see him above Vyland, but others might disagree with me anyway, so I'd like to see what happens with Ymir > Bord myself. Like all AKs for the most part, it's slightly dependant on the early Master Seal(s) going toward them, which in most cases isn't a bad idea. Edited July 12, 2009 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Magic Spd numbers:That Bord, nor the other two characters I listed will never reach, ever, so speed magic numbers are largely irrelevant in this comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) That Bord, nor the other two characters I listed will never reach, ever, so speed magic numbers are largely irrelevant in this comparison. I know Bord won't reach them: it's just to give an idea on what is needed to double (or avoid doubling) for lategame. >_> Let's see... 2 levels Ymir has about 19 Spd (18.8), Lv 14 it's about 20 Spd (19.6), so... wow, all that's really needed is that Speedwing and he's actually pretty good. ...Hm, early Master Seal vs. Speedwing argument... Edited July 12, 2009 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I know Bord won't reach them: it's just to give an idea on what is needed to double (or avoid doubling) for lategame. >_>I am completely aware of the magic numbers needed to double. I am also aware that no character we're talking about right now is doubling anything anyway, so it doesn't really help anyone....Hm, early Master Seal vs. Speedwing argument...Let's not. I'm not going to argue a character you get near the end of the game getting a stat booster almost every character in the game wants. Edited July 12, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Dunno. Like I said, it's all about being like a utility unit vs a permenant unit. I guess I could see Ymir going above Bord, but then again we'd have to bash a lot onto Bord's major chapter leads to begin with. Just for a side note, I think Mishalen could rise in a bit. Not going to argue just yet, but Here's why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 We're gonna try dropping Paola instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Well... Jeorge being that much of a low-resource unit would be the reason why I see him above her. She's really not that great in her chapters: she does alright, but she's borderline doubling in many chapters (13 base with 25% growth is iffy). Then, in order to stay durable due to her lack of doubling, she requires promoting pretty quickly (IIRC I said by Lv 16) and start whipping out an Axe rank. So how to apply it? Jeorge's low resource and utility > cramming a bunch of levels down our throat just to be average or, at best, above average due to durability. Trying to stir discussion here... that is all. Edited July 12, 2009 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I recall it being argued that Paola above Jeorge, but I want to see her at least below Bord. I don't remember what the outcome of the discussion was. I guess I have to find it. EDIT: As prophesied by post #7 in this thread, even. EDIT 2: Nope, nobody argued Jeorge above her. Edited July 12, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I'm probably going to go to bed soon. You guys can look at a bunch of stealth edits I made. Edited July 12, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 FFFF--- I wanted to argue Mishalen up higher. Though I dunno if he should be THAT high. Then again WTF am I talking about? AS up the ass once built up is awesome. I think I'm going to overexcite Wolf though finding Big Mac a decent class setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I do think you might have an issue arguing him out of bottom: He has serious durability problems. Like, they're so bad that he's either getting one shotted or close to it at jointime, and he can never really escape that rut until promotion. Above Midia would be a good place to start, as right off the top of my head I'm seeing him having trouble even beating her. Edit: Wait, he already moved up. And WTF at Mac above Vyland. WTF at Mac in lower mid in general. Moving up is one thing, moving up two tiers without any sort of consideration to how much balls his durability sucks is another. Edited July 12, 2009 by Norton Says What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capracanis Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I recall it being argued that Paola above Jeorge, but I want to see her at least below Bord.I don't remember what the outcome of the discussion was. I guess I have to find it. EDIT: As prophesied by post #7 in this thread, even. EDIT 2: Nope, nobody argued Jeorge above her. Palla is a amzing if you give her the chance. you really wanna mke her good then give her Silvers, Riders Banes and the like. Failing that, she makes an Amazing Mage and if you wanna use up your levin, make her a do a Mage-->Swordmaster route. She can train her magic on the armored units, failing that, the Ridersbane ise useful in the next chapter, what with al the fucking horses. There's no way Jorge is above her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Whatever you say, Cap. Anyways, Big Mac. Looked over the numbers, and he's still having the problem of not having impressive AS or durability until promotion, or close to it. I'd rather he just go DM, where he fits at best at the bottom of Low, as he at least has a niche use there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 But really, let's consider this. Out of the gate reclasses: Midia, Steel Bow: 16 ATK, 10 AS, 26 HP, 8 def Mac, Iron Axe: 14 ATK, 10 AS, 22 HP, 4 def Move, offense, and durability winnar: Midia. Not taking counters when you get raped as hard as Mac does helps a lot, too. But don't think it ends there. Let's give Mac 5 levels and Midia 3. Midia, Silver Bow: 21 atk, 13 AS, 28 HP, 9 def Mac, Steel Axe: 20 ATK, 12 AS, 26 HP, 4 def Nope, Midia's still winning durability by a ton, offense significantly, and move. Mac's still getting shitstomped. 7 Midia vs 14 Mac: Midia, Silver Bow: 31 HP, 23 ATK, 15 AS, 9 def Mac, Steel Axe: 31 HP, 23 ATK, 14 AS, 4 def Midia STILL wins durability, still wins move, and still wins AS. She's arguably still winning. Is this shit really worth putting up with until promotion to justify lower mid? He is losing to a freaking bottom tier unit all the way until he promotes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capracanis Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Whatever you say, Cap. You guys keep ignoring me, which is fine, because no matter what you say, it works for me. You guys are following your tier lists whereas in real fucking life, that shit isn't exactly correct, in which case, if you'd actually listen to what I'd say, you might get somewhere. Why is Catra higher than Palla if their growths (save for SPD and LUK) are virtually the same? Really, considering the list is based on Averages, which aren't totally fucking accurate to begin with, I'd say some of you are full of it. - Athena - Marth - Wendell - Daros - Horace - Draug - Roger - Castor - Dolph - Navarre - Ceaser - Catria - Minerva - Jeigan - Rena - Beck - Jake Anyone in this color is complete bullshit. Considering what lvl Dolph is, and the chatper you get him on, the fact that you can even try to argue that his stats are projected to being better than Ogma's is bogus because of how you'd have to coddle him. You people make no sense because by the chapter you et Dolhp (12) Ogma should be strong enough to hold his own, to the point that replacing him by Dolph is a fucking waste of EXP. Now, I'm not saying that if you're gonna use Ogma you HAVE to use Dolph, but you get the point. You place Radd low because of his level and how much of a pain it is, but by the same token, you have Dolph higher and completely disregard that. i mean, if Radd is such a pain the the ass to level and needs to be coddleed, then why is Dolph any different? Really? Consider the Wooden Cavalry in the next Cahpter of H5; he ain't surviving shit-all. Ch13 is is gonna be a pain for him again unless you make him a Hunter for easy damage to the Peg Knights. I mean, you're getting Palla and Catria two Chs after you get Dolph, and even if you try and stay true to the 1-Lv up per Ch (which you won't) Dolph isn't even the same Lv as Palla. And, like I said, if you don't like her, reclass her as anything, except a healer. Sirius was right on a few things as well. 1. I see Barst going above both Abel and Cain. Maybe Abel > Cain actually since having a Javelin since chapter 1 > not having it and Cain's got nothing to make up for it.2. Castor in High tier? WTF? 4. Marth needs to move up. Forged rapier makes him great against chapters with cavaliers no matter what level he is. 8. Cord to up-mid. He makes a decent Merc or Hunter and STR problems can be fixed by reclassing him to Fighter. He's only inferior to Barst due to slightly lower bases and starts with an E rank. Barst is Barst. 'Nuff said. Castor is useless. No matter his class. Marth should be fairly high, true. Card is amazing if you have the patience to lv up his Axe. Like honestly, I'd love to see how many of your games actually follow this list. Mine don't and it works great no matter how much you can make fun of me. I don't even use Navarre or Cain (whichever Cavalier has the lower Spd and/or Def by Ch5, in this case, Able was higher). I don't use Castor because Gordin has good defence and I'm not dumb enough to let him get directly hit anyway. I'm also using Bord because like I said, get him a killer axe right away and he's ownage. He's stronger than my Barst (whom I'm not even using) in ever way except for Speed. I can't believe I'm actually using Wolf but he's a decent meatshield. Really. Edited July 12, 2009 by Capracanis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Whatever you say, Cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Durability is why I didn't move him into Upper Mid around Dolph, but I can bring him back down. It was a hasty decision, but I"m sure he won't end up in bottom again. Does anyone think it's possible for Arran to share Est's tier? Edited July 12, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Durability is why I didn't move him into Upper Mid around Dolph, but I can bring him back down. It was a hasty decision, but I"m sure he won't end up in bottom again.Does anyone think it's possible for Arran to share Est's tier? I think you pretty much guessed it: It'll probably be argued that he'll be able to do at least a bit as Sniper though, but I'll ask anyway. It isn't much sure but it sure beats Est' indirect attack damage and he isn't 1-rounded by everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameAtAll Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) EDIT: Disregard this, I suck. Edited July 12, 2009 by NoNameAtAll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) EDIT: Disregarded. Edited July 12, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) You guys are following your tier lists whereas in real fucking life, that shit isn't exactly correct And your shit isn't totally incorrect? Why is Catra higher than Palla if their growths (save for SPD and LUK) are virtually the same? ....lmfao *stops reading* Mine don't and it works great no matter how much you can make fun of me. I think you missed the part where I said we don't care. Please don't trouble us further. Edited July 12, 2009 by Norton Says What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Does anyone think it's possible for Arran to share Est's tier? I dunno: Arran was never proven worse than Lorenz. Edit: Whoops, didn't think that was a double post. Edited July 12, 2009 by Norton Says What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Yeah, I was thinking about who could possibly go in her tier. Rickard is probably the only real contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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