H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

*launches fireworks*

As for Mac though, that's more Colonel M's guy. So...

[Rodykitty]

And we're like, the only three that even visit this topic.

EDIT: Nevermind, Radd is already above Roshe so there's no need to rearrange at the moment.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Rody

[Dat Nick]

And we're like, the only three that even visit this topic.

Mustard's still on vacation, but we don't need him here as Fighter>Hero Mac was agreed on. Anyway, while Mac might have a notable speed lead on Radd at base, it's not going to do him any good if he still can't double [and 10 AS doesn't do that very well] I'd suppose he's probably better than Roshe, though: Although on the flip side Roshe does have a lot of time to get his act together.

[Quasar]

I can't usually be arsed posting here since the list is in pretty good shape and there are people constantly working on it. Might as well now since people broke the FE6 and FE7 lists (I like how you have rules people agree on by the way).

Since you're giving Minny the "benefit" of no counters so let's do the same for Catria.

10 Minerva: 32 HP, 25 ATK, 18 AS, 12 def

15/1 Catria: 35 HP, 22 ATK, 22 AS, 13 def (Steel Bow)

This is a huge win for Catria since 18 has enemies with 16-18 AS and now Catria is also winning durability. The sooner you promote Catria the sooner Minerva will be taking it up in the ass and I don't see why you'd wait until 20 to do so.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Quasar

[Dat Nick]

several reasons

A: Master Seals may not be available at the time.

B: If a master seal IS available, somebody else might want it instead.

C: Where did I put her at 15 again? C18? Minerva's still winning for more of the game and has the advantage of not having to be babied.

[Rodykitty]

I didn't put Minerva > Catria only because of "lol taking no counters". It's true she can do that though, and is a significant contribution since Snipers are actually very good in this game and that this isn't a game where you're tanking large groups of enemies unless you're a General. EDIT: Not to mention if Catria wants to also be a bow user as well, she has to go through being a garbage Archer class with E in bows or wait to become Sniper upon promotion.

Other reasons include the truth that Minerva's durability is better for awhile, making her also better at melee, A in Axes improving said durability even more (and in the uncommon case of swords, she has lances which she can afford to build up since she doesn't have to play catch up on Axes). That, and both Minerva and Catria being flyers, are sharing flyer utility so Ch. 15 is as much Minerva's playground as it is Catria's.

And, of course, the whole "being around longer" thing.

The last reason is that I needed reasons for Catria to drop for a long time now.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Rody

[Quasar]

several reasons

A: Master Seals may not be available at the time.

B: If a master seal IS available, somebody else might want it instead.

C: Where did I put her at 15 again? C18? Minerva's still winning for more of the game and has the advantage of not having to be babied.

A+B: Since there are rules for the list I will hide behind them and say that's not a problem.

C: More of the game? Let's promote Catria at C17, 7 Minerva and 12/1 Catria sound about right? Catria is more durable right off the bat and makes up for having lower atk by having more AS. Let's call 17 a draw then, which is heavily in Minerva's favor given durability loss. Eight chapters where Minerva > Catria and ten chapters where Catria > Minerva. And this includes Minerva's joining chapter mind you. You also have to remember Ch 15 reduces the amount you have to baby Catria significantly.

Here's 12/1 Catria with Steel Bow. (I forgot to add the 1 might from C bows to the earlier stats, oh well)

34 HP

22 ATK

21 AS

12 DEF

7 Minerva with Silver Bow

30 HP

24 ATK

16 AS

11 DEF

One thing I don't understand is why she'd have to go through being an archer. Steel Bow for a while isn't that bad.

[Rodykitty]

A+B: Since there are rules for the list I will hide behind them and say that's not a problem.

I assume you're talking about...

Everyone that uses a Master Seal is assumed to get a Master Seal as soon as possible, even if it means assuming multiple characters get the exact same one

Trying to say that a character doesn't get the first Master Seal is just favortism towards the higher tier characters. Let's be fair to all characters concerning the Master Seal, especially since all will get one eventually.

I will re-word this to clarify some things, but this mostly applies to two characters fighting over a single master seal (join time and speed of leveling up accounted). However, Minverva is fighting for a Master Seal with nobody due to already being promoted, so she's pretty much immune to this issue.

You also have to remember Ch 15 reduces the amount you have to baby Catria significantly.

This is usually the case when comparing Catria with characters who have trouble travelling the map, but since Minerva is also a flyer, one with more move at that, they're both sharing utility here.

[Quasar]

I will re-word this to clarify some things, but this mostly applies to two characters fighting over a single master seal (join time and speed of leveling up accounted). However, Minverva is fighting for a Master Seal with nobody due to already being promoted, so she's pretty much immune to this issue.

True and fair enough.

This is usually the case when comparing Catria with characters who have trouble travelling the map, but since Minerva is also a flyer, one with more move at that, they're both sharing utility here.

What I meant in this case is that babying Catria is relatively easy because she does very well in said map despite being little.

Edit: If Catria can't promote whenever she wants there's really no contest. I think I'll just skip downplaying what Minerva is doing earlier and agree with M>C.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Quasar

[Rodykitty]

What I meant in this case is that babying Catria is relatively easy because she does very well in said map despite being little.

I know, but it's hard to deny that Minerva also does well in this map. Minerva can OHKO Mages with Hautclere if she has 10 Str with Hautclere, 11 Str against Mages with 25 HP and 4 Def, while Katua needs a forge to claim the same fame.

Minerva will likely be taking hits and damaging Dragon Knights much better as well.

[Colonel M]

Man not typing on a computer for two weeks and it feels friggin awkward.

For Macellan consider an early promotion in general. The main weakness is he needs some time into Fighter as well... unless you'll consider 10/10 being fair for him by C20. Swords will be iffy but the Lances he should be able to circumvent through.

[Rodykitty]

We may as well assume every character is getting promoted early at this point.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Seeing as how it's very possible for several combat units to be 15+ around that time.

[Dat Nick]

My biggest problem would be exactly how many levels Raddy gets by the time Little Mac joins: He has a good amount of time yeah, but his stats as Archer really suck, that's his only usable option unpromoted, and I see it taking a chunk out of his EXP gain.

[Rodykitty]

Comparing by similar class roles here....

Base level Merc Macellan is comparable to a level 8 Raddy as Swordfighter.

Base level Hunter Macellan is comparable in offensive stats (Str, Speed) to a level 13 Archer Raddy. Raddy wins defense, but Macellan's huge speed lead will have him much less time being doubled (if not never). Not to mention Hunter Macellan is going to have more utility on Ch. 15 with existing movement capabilities.

Other classes are hard to say due to stat extremes like Speed or Def (Radd has to level up no matter what though), but I think it's clear that base level Macellan is beating some of Radd's options you have to level up for. That, and Macellan is an underleveled dude as well, so if his leads allow him to score kills easier, he should have an easier time leveling than Radd against enemies that yield more EXP.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Rody

[Mekkah]

A quick Navarre post.

At Ch12x:

16/0 Nabarl (Cavalier - A swords, C lances)

11.3 str, 11.3 spd -- 31.9 hp, 11.1 def

Steel Sword: 22.3 atk

Silver Swrd: 26.3 atk

Steel Lance: 21.3 atk

- Marth

- Daros

- Athena

- Horace

- Roger

- Castor

- Dolph

- Navarre

On Dolph/Roger, he has huge availability leads, and thus a level one, so iono...comparing him to Hunter Castor, for example:

16/0 Castor (Hunter - B bows)

12.2 str, 11.2 spd -- 26.2 hp, 6.6 def

Steel Bow: 21.2 atk

I don't know what classes you're assuming for all of these, or what happens upon promotions to all of these, but I think either Navarre should rise or Athena should drop. B2BD seems to have forfeited Horace vs Navarre because he thought Cav Navarre was better, so...

[Rodykitty]

I'm going to lower Athena and we'll work things out from here.

[Dat Nick]

Mac>Radd

Mac>Radd>Roshe, glad that's settled.

nabarl shit

I'm not sure I agree with Nabarl>Athena: Looking at the stats Mekkah posted, base level Athena is VERY close to Nabarl at 12x: Which obviously does not bode well for Nabarl. Athena even has a lower base level at that timeframe: Which bodes even worse for Nabarl.

I'm also pretty sure Hunter isn't Castor's best option so that one will need to be re-analyzed: As for the Horace thing, I'm more comfortable with Horace dropping, but at the same time I can't really see Roger>Horace.

[Colonel M]

Hunter is useful due to pulling Parthia a bit earlier than most units in general and the Hunter -> General setup not being terrible at the very least.

One problem with Roger > Horace is Horace doesn't require much build-up to be good and, at the same time, build-up on Horace can still make him a useful character. I agree with Athena dropping though since I've tried to advocate it for quite a while.

[Mekkah]

I'm not sure I agree with Nabarl>Athena

That's not the point though, Rody just dropped her because he's sure the two should be close.

[Dat Nick]

I'm really not comfortable with slamming Athena down several units "Because Nabarl should be closer to her" without any sort of reasoning on whether or not Athena is actually worse than the units she's getting tossed under. "These units should be closer" should really be reserved for tier gaps imo as unit gaps creates a big mess.

[Rodykitty]

The reason is so that we can figure out who should accurately be put between them.

We're basically going to be seeing who Athena's availability and usability is outweighing (and right now I don't know if it's any of them since we just learned her abilities aren't as profound as we thought, thus another reason for this change).

[Colonel M]

IOS made a comparison with Roger and Athena and I see the former over her then Castor at least has utility and a decent General or Warrior placement. Dolph could be an issue though (nothing to the amount of extremes) since Athena does have some availability on him (about 6-7 chapters). One thing that could play to Dolph's advantage is being able to double as a Hunter fairly early and his wtfdurability upon promotion.

[Don Draper]

Unfortunately, that comparison was purged :(

What are the assumed class routes that Roger and Dolph are getting again?

[Dat Nick]

Purged? It's right here...