H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Wow, bro, that's such a great response, why didn't I think of that? This just shows how intellectually superior you are to me.

It's called agreeing with you.

[_____]

Wow, bro, that's such a great response, why didn't I think of that? This just shows how intellectually superior you are to me.

It's called agreeing with you.

...

Whoops.

I'm still pissed off that when someone else pulls out the exact same arguments I did, they get huge changes and I get backlisted. I feel like Grandjackal.

Edit: Except, you know, with good arguments.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Ninji

[Rodykitty]

I admit to being unreasonable last time. Everyone knew I was.

So Rickard's position won't be falling below Thomas anytime soon unless someone makes a decent argument for it (which is still possible).

[_____]

I admit to being unreasonable last time. Everyone knew I was.

So Rickard's position won't be falling below Thomas anytime soon unless someone makes a decent argument for it (which is still possible).

Fine.

[Don Draper]

Glad to see everybody's fine with each other now, and we're all happy :D

I probably should be posting this on fegenesis, but Caeser and Roger are like...the exact same character and should probably be right next to each other. I mean if they're both going Fighter-->Hero:

Roger 5/0: 24 HP, 13 Atk (Iron Axe), 12 AS, 5 Def

Caeser 3/0: 24 HP, 13 Atk (Iron Axe), 9 AS, 5 Def

That extra AS is doubling nothing that Caeser can't already double. Then there's midgame:

Roger 15/0: 33 HP, 27 Atk (Silver Axe), 14 AS, 5 Def

Caeser 15/0: 37 HP, 27 Atk (Silver Axe), 13 AS, 6 Def

Roger might have an advantage against enemies with 10 AS, but Caeser catches up in two levels anyways. Keep in mind that this is right around when Roger reaches 14 AS, so he's winning about 2 chapters at most.

Then there's promotion:

Roger 20/1: 39 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS, 9 Def

Caeser 20/1: 45 HP, 31 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS, 11 Def

Caeser with the durability lead. Roger gets 3RKO'd by anything with 22+ Atk, and 2RKO'd by anything with 29+ Atk. Caeser gets 3RKO'd by anything with 26+ Atk, and 2RKO'd by anything with 33+ Atk (aka pretty much nothing). This is a pretty significant difference, so Caeser wins here.

Then we look at growths. Caeser has 20% HP, 15% Spd, and 10% Def over Roger's 15% Str. So Caeser continues to win over Roger for the rest of the game.

This was kind of a half assed comparison, but I'll look at enemy stats if anybody disagrees. Roger only wins when he has 14 AS and Caeser has 13 AS, which lasts for about 2 levels. Then Caeser wins by a significant amount from promotion on. I'm thinking Caeser>Roger

[Rodykitty]

Same availability at that. They join on the exact same chapter. Regardless of who wins, it's become clear that there probably shouldn't be any characters in-between them. It's like another Abel/Kain.

[Don Draper]

It really comes down to how much you value Roger's period of doubling. Roger has 14 AS at 14-15/0, while Caeser doesn't reach it until 16-17/0. However, Caeser does win pretty significantly at promotion. Taking Chapter 20 for example (Lets take them at 20/3, they have to play catch up on levels remember):

Roger 20/3: 41 HP, 33 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS, 9 Def

Caeser 20/3: 46 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS, 11 Def

Now I forget if Generals have braves or not, but I'll assume they do and somebody can correct me if they don't. Both character's offence is essentially the same, so lets look at defence:

Generals: 26 Attack. That's a 2RKO for Roger, and a 3RKO for Caeser if they have braves. 3RKO for Roger and 4RKO for Caeser if they don't.

Paladins: 26-27 Attack. Caeser has the same durability as Roger against the 27 atk ones, but wins again for the 26 Attack ones.

So really, it comes down to Roger's short doubling lead, over Caeser's durability lead from promotion onwards. And yes, they should be right next to each other.

[Rodykitty]

This brings up two questions:

- What do we value more between the two? (Better let Colonel M have a say though he'll probably have a different class setup while I prefer Fighter.)

- Should they be above Navarre or below Marth? (Or whatever the order between them is)

Edited November 13, 2009 by FE3 Player

[grandjackal]

I have my moments! ;;>>

Anywho, I wanna bring up Linde again. 20 magic might, I just showed there earlier, for further reference to stats.

Cav:

34 HP

27 atk, 2 less for javelins

103 hit

10 AS

8 (9) def

0 (1) res

Merc:

32 HP

25 atk

112 hit

14 AS

6 (7) def

0 (1) res

Lvl 5 has 1 less HP, str, and def

Shooter 1:

33 HP

24 atk

52 hit [lol]

6 AS

12 def

Shooter 3:

36 HP

10 atk [res hit]

82 hit

6 AS

13 def

Peg:

34 HP

22 atk

102 hit

15 AS

6 def

7 res

Sniper:

40 HP

26 atk

124 hit

16 AS

8 def

3 res

Horseman:

33 HP

22 atk

107 hit

15 AS

6 def

3 res

Boss: Shozen

38 HP

32 atk

102 hit

18 AS

13 def

5 res

General range of 20 fulll damage to cavs and mercs, reducing them to 14-12 HP. If that's not helping avoid a counter, I don't know what is. To promotes, she reduces them 23-16 HP, cutting horsemen in half, and generally doing huge chip to something that's hard to kill in a single round. I should also note this also shows how easy it is for her to get kills. Banut at level 14 has 27 mt. He does similar damage, but he's stuck at melee, meaning he has to take a counter. This means Linda has more targetting opportunities. So, Banut can take the counters, ya?

25 HP, 9 Speed, 13 Def. If he's screwed out of a point of defense, mercs can ORKO him, but he is also doubled by a majority of the units here, meaning he is 2-1RKOd. He has to take twice of the attacks anyone with range would have to, and he has nearly worse durability than most myrms would at this point in time, or at least close enough. Linda at least has the benefit of avoiding having to take the counter while doing similar damage.

I also wanna point out Shozen there. Shozen can kill in one round, and Banut can't avoid it. Linda can avoid death, hwile doing 1 point more damage. This allows far less chipping required to kill this thing in one player phase, reducing him to 23 HP. 18 AS is hard to not get doubled by, you will have to chip this dude at range, and Linda shows up being one of your more able bodies to do it. I should also mention that at this point, Banut only has 1 luck, and is thus susceptible to crits.

This brings me to another point, weapons. Firestone vs Aura. Aura's always able to counter, has 25 uses. Firestone doesn't always counter, yet has 30 uses. However, if attacked at range, the firestone takes up a use anyways, despite the fact that Banut can't counter. Imagine an armor who can only use 1 silver weapon that has uses taken up even when he's not countering, and remember that he's not ubertank armor so he is still wanted to be targeted. That is how quickly this thing is running out, and it's been burned up for 4 chapters prior. Sooner or later, Banut will suddenly become a waste of space. At least once Aura is burned out (or at least used to the point that we stop using it until Hammerne comes around), Linda has other options. In fact, we can class swap her to healing if we want, to help her level faster while keeping her utility.

Speaking of which, how fast is she leveling? Well let's take these enemy examples, of which the enemy consistant level seems to be 6. She is level 1.

13 a hit, 46 a kill for unpromoted, 15 exp a hit and 79 exp a kill on promotes. Even chipping 8 unpromoted units will get her a level. She practically gets a level from killing 2 unpromoted units.

Personally, I think the nature of dragonstones dooms Banut pretty harshly, proving that his utility will only truly last a couple of chapters. Sure, he's able to take 3 rounds of combat at his start, but his use fizzles out all too quickly. At least when aura burns out, Linda doesn't becxome instantly useless, and is sort of Banut in archer form, despite that she gets destroyed upon being sneezed on.

[Rodykitty]

I thought Linde > Bantu was already proven? I must have forgotten to change it.

EDIT: It was brought up, but nobody actually finished the argument so I left Bantu > her.

Edited November 13, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Rodykitty]

inb4giant wall of text that says Aura > Dragonstone.

[Colonel M]

Unfortunately I can't use the Speedwing as an argument, so I have no choice but to agree with the gap being closed.

For Caesar > Roger though... hmm...

There is a minor notation that should be made at least. Taking a look at the Brave weapons Avoid can be fairly reliable. So I'd say that Roger's secondary durability comes from a Shiida support, which is all possible with her tier status and such.

[Rodykitty]

I went ahead and put Caesar > Roger and Linde > Bantu.

[grandjackal]

Here's the thing I'm curious about. It's said that bowmen are more helpful in this game because chip damage is more important. If that's so, shouldn't she be a bit higher, due to extraordinary chip damage?

You could say she's using a valuable tome, but she is using it before it's even possible for anyone else. Not using it would be stupid, ya? She has chip damage greater than anyone else at this point aside form Maric himself (Gordon might have the rank but not the speed, other bowmen might have the speed, but not the rank or perhaps even the strength or speed, no mage can outdamage her shot for shot except perhaps Maric, or Wendell if he uses Excalibur. Actually...to outdo that, he would need to be level 11 with Excalibur, because otherwise he needs a magic up to hit 20 mt with Excalibur. Granted there's also tome rank and by level 11 he'd be doubling basic threats again, but level 11 for even him is ludicrous by then. Until then, he would actually only do similar damage with a tome I would say is even more valuable than Aura).

http://www.feplanet.net/games-11-characters-averages/32

She can start taking 24 ATK archers at level 11, and with her leveling speed it's not like that takes forever. Granted she never takes up ability to take on 28 ATK common threats, but at least she can, unlike...

http://www.feplanet.net/games-11-characters-averages/17

Etzel is doubled by paladins with their 15-16 AS, Linda isn't, and she can survive the shot. As you can also see, she is a magic stronger, and probably has A rank tomes, possibly anyways, and returning with a 5 might stronger attack. He can bring down dracos sure, but that's 2 chapters and 1 enemy type compared to doing better against every other enemy type, along with better durability (at least until braves show up), and she's had prior chapters of doing such damage when yoru untis weren't quite as strong. By the time Etzel shows up, they're probably quite godly in comparison. You might also notice that 14 AS allows her to double things, like the cavs still lingering around, generals, you get the picture.

[Rodykitty]

Here's the thing I'm curious about. It's said that bowmen are more helpful in this game because chip damage is more important. If that's so, shouldn't she be a bit higher, due to extraordinary chip damage?

No, she's higher because Bantu sucks at tanking and doing damage.

[grandjackal]

Here's the thing I'm curious about. It's said that bowmen are more helpful in this game because chip damage is more important. If that's so, shouldn't she be a bit higher, due to extraordinary chip damage?

No, she's higher because Bantu sucks at tanking and doing damage.

That post was in a way comparing her to Etzel.

You might say Excalibur for anti-air, but not only do you have 2 alternatives who can use it for the same effect (while you only have 1 person who can use Aura better and you have to train her up as a certain class to screw her out of specific earlygame utility to do it too, then Etzel has Maric who uses it better outside of wing clipping), but there's more than one way to clip a draco's wings safely (Parthia for example, or Draug in general). Generals to be taken out with ease require a hammer, or armorslayer, or some big mean motherhubber with a shiny silver weapon and huge Str. Linda can double them with Aura, now as you can see there is a difference. A general is not as common as the dracos in those two chapters, but to take hem out swiftly you need to use a weapon that requires you to take a counter. Examples, generals from chapter 20, before the dracos show up.

General 2:

50 HP

26 atk

92 hit

9 AS

15 def

3 res

General 4:

51 (52) HP

26 atk

93 hit

9 (10) AS

3 res

20/7 Linda has 14 Magic, A rank tomes, 17 Speed, and Aura would have her packing 34 mt. Would you rather ORKO from range, or would you prefer to take a counter when you don't need to? In fact, she could do this with 13 mt Tron, since 14+2+13=29 mt, 29-3=26, 26x2=52. Etzel can't even double.

Paladin 6:

46 HP

26 atk

94 (95) hit

16 AS

10 (11) def

7 res

Paladin 11:

50 HP

27 (2 atk

96 hit

17 AS

12 def

8 res

Aura allows her to cut these people in half, despite their Res. Etzel by now, given 3 levels and A rank with Excalibur/Tron, would only do 27 mt, which is only 20-19 in comparison to 27-26 damage. Hell, she still does better with Tron.

Shooter 6:

43 HP

27 (2 atk

94 hit [10 less on quickrain]

8 AS

12 (13) def

Shooter 8:

44 HP

29 atk

83 hit

8 AS

14 def

Shooter 11:

47 HP

36 atk

74 hit

9 AS

15 def

She can double them, he can't, the end.

Chapter 22

Horseman:

45 (46) HP

19 atk

101 (102) hit

20 AS

7 ( def

4 res

20/7 Linda has 17 AS, avoiding being doubled, though still braved. She has 34 HP and 4 Def, while Etzel would be quad'd and killed. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that's hilarious.

He might have anti-air, but it's not exactly hard to come across, and on the other hand she does better on many other things since his speed is so paltry, and otherwise has another answer in Aura, though she's still better with Tron than he is.

Then you must keep in mind that she has been doing huge chip damage since before Etzel's arrival, and with her ranged damage output, I'd say she is at least having some form of utility during those times where Etzel doesn't exist. I think Linda>Etzel is at least a thought to entertain.

[Rodykitty]

I'll wait until I see what others think (Linde getting level ups is something that I don't expect many to agree with, especially if she's going to be used to do chip damage and not finish off enemies).

But you seem pretty intent on proving us all wrong on Etzel even though most of us don't really think he's good.

[grandjackal]

I'll wait until I see what others think (Linde getting level ups is something that I don't expect many to agree with, especially if she's going to be used to do chip damage and not finish off enemies).

She CAN be used in such a manner, thus why I said she has sort of a starting utility. It's not stopping her from killing something, not with her huge damage output. With her leveling speed pointed above, it's not like she's hard to level up, considering she's leveling up that fast with her damage output at range.

But you seem pretty intent on proving us all wrong on Etzel even though most of us don't really think he's good.

Is this implying Linde perhaps is ranked in the wrong league, or is this a jab at me who likes Etzel?

[Rodykitty]

Is this implying Linde perhaps is ranked in the wrong league, or is this a jab at me who likes Etzel?

No, I just think you're trying way too hard just to make a simple point.

[grandjackal]

Is this implying Linde perhaps is ranked in the wrong league, or is this a jab at me who likes Etzel?

No, I just think you're trying way too hard just to make a simple point.

I'm an overachiever.

I know I hype a lot, but it's in my nature because I'm easily hyped. I'm trying to use numbers more often, and I still can't stop hyping even when I'm using solid numbers. I apologize for that, I know it's a major habit I can't seem to kick.

[Dat Nick]

but she is using it before it's even possible for anyone else.

Shiida the slut disagrees.

I still don't disagree with Linde>Etzel, though. She promotes about the same time he joins, isn't competing for Aura any worse than he is for Excalibur, has had Curate utility before he exists, and on top of all this will have a prebuilt A Staff rank to his D.

Edited November 14, 2009 by laws b122

[grandjackal]

but she is using it before it's even possible for anyone else.

Shiida the slut disagrees.

I still don't disagree with Linde>Etzel, though. She promotes about the same time he joins, isn't competing for Aura any worse than he is for Excalibur, has had Curate utility before he exists, and on top of all this will have a prebuilt A Staff rank to his D.

Gordon starts at chapter 1 with D bows, I could barely get him to B by the time George arrives in chapter 9, that's a whole 10 chapters. Do explain how Shiida went from E (a rank LOWER) to B in the course of chapter 4 to chapter 11 (the course of 8 chapters)?

[Dat Nick]

The deadline is C11, why? Linde needs Curate's levelling speed as opposed to having to put up with Mage's suck post Aura. Or do you mean actually giving Linde a few levels with Aura? I certainly wouldn't be giving her too many.

[grandjackal]

The deadline is C11, why? Linde needs Curate's levelling speed as opposed to having to put up with Mage's suck post Aura. Or do you mean actually giving Linde a few levels with Aura? I certainly wouldn't be giving her too many.

13 a hit, 47 a kill unpromoted, 15 a hit with 79 a kill on promotes. You would need about 3 staffs to do better than killing an unpromoted by 4 points. Her joining chapter, she's forced as a mage, of which she can put her 20 magic might to good use. That's not to say sometimes your units don't leave enemies in single digits, which case she can finish with something weaker like anyone else, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do the solid damage she can do off the bat like that outside of Banut, who has to do it at melee.

True we wouldn't want to use Aura too much for the same reason we wouldn't want to use Excalibur too much early on, but it doesn't hurt that she can use it early on. It helps to serve two purposes for her, to level her up easy, and to help her earn her stay in the form of huge chip damage off the bat.

[grandjackal]

The deadline is C11, why? Linde needs Curate's levelling speed as opposed to having to put up with Mage's suck post Aura. Or do you mean actually giving Linde a few levels with Aura? I certainly wouldn't be giving her too many.

13 a hit, 47 a kill unpromoted, 15 a hit with 79 a kill on promotes. You would need about 3 staffs to do better than killing an unpromoted by 4 points. Her joining chapter, she's forced as a mage, of which she can put her 20 magic might to good use. That's not to say sometimes your units don't leave enemies in single digits, which case she can finish with something weaker like anyone else, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do the solid damage she can do off the bat like that outside of Banut, who has to do it at melee.

True we wouldn't want to use Aura too much for the same reason we wouldn't want to use Excalibur too much early on, but it doesn't hurt that she can use it early on. It helps to serve two purposes for her, to level her up easy, and to help her earn her stay in the form of huge chip damage off the bat.