Dat Nick Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I've never questioned Linde's ability to get kills WITHOUT Aura, so as long as she swaps to Curate after using it up, fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 Linda > Etzel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I've never questioned Linde's ability to get kills WITHOUT Aura, so as long as she swaps to Curate after using it up, fine. To clarify, I'd say it's more she uses it until she either A. starts doing decent chip damage with something else, or B. when the exp rate starts to die down. She does have some options though, like early promo to Bishop for auto-D staffs while keeping at the same thing, healing and such keeping her afloat till you feel it safe to switch her to Sage. She'd then basically be Etzel at a time when his speed wouldn't necessarily suck for his job. But that's just a secondary. Either way, seems I finally won one. Go me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 Availability and slight utility are the only convincing factors here. Trying to figure out how to get her leveled up is only putting her main flaws into the spotlight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Availability and slight utility are the only convincing factors here. Trying to figure out how to get her leveled up is only putting her main flaws into the spotlight. I'm sorry, I'm not seeing how it's so difficult for a person who's doing 20 damage to generally everything around her at range with the option to attack at melee is having a hard time gaining levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Regardless, ability to gain levels is not why she rose (it's perferable to keep babying to a minimum.) Edited November 14, 2009 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Regardless, ability to gain levels is not why she rose (it's perferable to keep babying to a minimum.) True on both accounts, just saying it's not exactly hard to baby a unit with those sorts of parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakaerys Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 And Boah is above Linde for what reasons? All I can see is auto Thoron and Warp, but still, Linde out-damages him with Aura with both at base. 22 HP, 10 Speed, and 5 defense only give him slight survivability against Archers in his first few chapters, when he doesn't even have a weapon. He has to either steal Excalibur or a staff from someone to have any use, not to mention the difficulty of getting to him alive. Linde doesn't have any of these troubles and even gives Aura if nothing else. Not to mention Linde has the best magic growth in the game along with a decent spd growth: 40, giving her great utility throughout the game. Boah really, I mean, he can Thoron and healbot for a little, but he doesn't have any room for growth. I'd like a little more elaboration for why Boah > Linde. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 Linde above Boah as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) To clarify, I'd say it's more she uses it until she either A. starts doing decent chip damage with something else she's pretty bad until promotion without it. So yes, until Aura runs out. EDT: Also, Chiki v Julian depends on how much we value thief utility. CATS, you bought up thief utility, what do you think? Edited November 14, 2009 by laws b122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 Also, Chiki v Julian depends on how much we value thief utility.Thief Utility is mostly a tie breaker, but Julian and Tiki are completely different units in almost every single way. You'll have to compare Julian as a whole to her lategame utility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATS Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Also, Chiki v Julian depends on how much we value thief utility. CATS, you bought up thief utility, what do you think? Let's see......I'll start with Ch 9. Marth needs to rush the village immediately and get Jeorge, as the enemy thief destroys it on turn 3 IIRC. Those two chests just past your starting point are asking to be opened, though. Marth having to backtrack across the top of the map, and then spending a few turns actually going into that walled area and getting the chests, takes 5-6 turns. Very inconvenient. But then the developers said, let there be Julian! Thus allowing Marth to just head straight down the right side of the map if you want, or if you send him back to the left anyways, he still saves atleast 3 turns by being able to bypass the chests. Keep in mind that, in addition to not moving towards the throne while he's busy with chests, Marth is also not fighting, which slows you down even more as your combat group is now down a man. Ofcourse, you could just skip those chests entirely, but they contain a M Bullion (15000G) and a Goddess Icon. If you have to skip them entirely without Julian, then he still has a pretty strong case, since now he gets the worth of those items directly attributed to him. To give you an idea of how much 15000G is worth, it's enough to forge +10 Mt and 16-17 Crit onto an Iron Sword. lol, Julian has better offense than Barst with that. How many individual units can actually say that their presence alone decreases your turncount by 5-6 in this chapter? I doubt that anyone else aside from toptier fighters (and ironically, Rickard; your thief can run directly to those chests and then sit in that treasure room and never, ever get attacked) can claim that, and even the toptiers might not be able to since you have a large surplus of PCs. You're able to deploy 15 units in this chapter, and it's fought in small, cramped spaces, so on many turns alot of your fighters aren't doing anything anyways, just sitting piled up behind the units that you put in front. Even if you take away one of your fighters, you have so many on the map that there's just another one waiting to take his place. And this is just two chests in one chapter. There's still 13 more chapters before Tiki joins. It's also going by opening chests alone, without saying anything at all about what combat contributions Julian might be able to make. So yeah, at first glance, I would absolutely go with Julian. Edited November 14, 2009 by CATS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 When I said that, everyone disagreed with me. Well, aside from IOS. [/still bitter] So, anyway, Matthis > Vyland. BB agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) CATS actually does make a convincing point this time around concerning Thief utility. Master Keys are not available yet, so no other unit has this utility yet on Ch. 9. I don't want to auto-win for it though. A ton of weight is being put on just this one chapter. Edited November 14, 2009 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATS Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) BB said Vyland can't avoid his shitty period. But why can't Vyland just do Curate aswell? Looks like they have the same (shitty) Mag. 20/1 Curate -> Sniper Matthis: 8.8 Str, 14.4 Spd 20/1 Curate -> Sniper Vyland: 7 Str, 18.5 Spd 1.8 Str vs 4.1 Spd BB also bolded Matthis's higher growths in Hp and Def, but those stats are less important than offense for a Sniper, and Vyland's combined Str/Spd growths are higher. I certainly don't see a clear win for Matthis. I don't want to auto-win for it though. A ton of weight is being put on just this one chapter. Yeah, it's one chapter. This is only one example of how helpful Julian is out of multiple instances of him doing this. If this were the only chapter where Julian is helping like this, then yeah, I would consider it to be more of a contest. But it isn't the only instance. This happens alot. Like, there's more chapters with chests than chapters where Tiki even exists it all. Edited November 14, 2009 by CATS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 Julian > Tiki And Vyland will remain above Matthis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Makes me wonder if Julian could go above Katua. I suppose Katua's better overall lategame combat>Julian's offense and thief utility though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) It was already established that Katua is winning in just a few levels, if not almost instantly. Her period of suck is also much less impacting than Julian's. I believe it was IOS that made the comparison either here or on FE Genesis. Edited November 15, 2009 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Julian cannot be allowed full credit for anything thief-related after Ricardo joins. You'll have to divide its abstract worth by two, or something in that direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Julian cannot be allowed full credit for anything thief-related after Ricardo joins. You'll have to divide its abstract worth by two, or something in that direction. There isn't anything thief related before ricardo joins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 Julian cannot be allowed full credit for anything thief-related after Ricardo joins. You'll have to divide its abstract worth by two, or something in that direction. To be fair, on this particular chapter the result just ends up the same: You get both items and Marth is prevented from having to open the chests himself, whether Julian, Ricardo, or both are used. You would need to do warp-skip hijinks to truly change the turn result, and that brings a healer into the equation.I do agree that neither of them should have full credit for the actual items obtained though. There isn't anything thief related before ricardo joins...This statement doesn't negate that there are Thief-related things after Ricardo joins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 BB said Vyland can't avoid his shitty period. But why can't Vyland just do Curate aswell? Looks like they have the same (shitty) Mag. 20/1 Curate -> Sniper Matthis: 8.8 Str, 14.4 Spd 20/1 Curate -> Sniper Vyland: 7 Str, 18.5 Spd 1.8 Str vs 4.1 Spd Matthis has 1 base level on Vyland and is recruited a chapter earlier. They won't be the same level. Better comparison: 20/3 Curate -> Sniper Matthis (B Lena): 40.4 HP, 8.4 Defense, 43 Avoid, whocaresaboutres w/ Steel Bow: 18 MT, 109 Hit, 11 Crit, 15 AS w/ Silver Bow: 22 MT, 119 Hit, 11 Crit, 15 AS 20/1 Curate -> Sniper Vyland: 33.6 HP, 7 Defense, 39 Avoid, whocaresaboutres w/ Steel Bow: 16 MT, 99 Hit, 10 Crit, 18 AS Now, you'll notice that Matthis has big durability leads (7 HP, 1 Defense, 4 Avoid), and higher combat parameters in everything but AS. Is the AS that much of a difference? No, it isn't. For instance, you need 16 AS to double all Paladins in Chapter 20, 15 to double the weaker, more common ones. That's right, Matthis has enough AS to double lategame Paladins at 20/3. Even in the midgame, Vyland's AS lead is superfluous. In Chapter 12, for instance, 18 AS doubles a total of 0 more things than 15 AS does. And don't even try to say that the Lena support is unreliable, because we have no reason not to keep Lena alive for Hammerh4x. Also, Vyland has a 0% growth in Strength and Defense as a Curate, while Matthis has 10% and 5% respectively, which means that Vyland has less of an incentive to go Curate in the first place, in which case Matthis roflstomps him even more. And Vyland will remain above Matthis. Yeah, let's make a decision on a half-assed comparison that contains 2 stats without giving some time to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 half-assed comparison No, it isn't. For instance, you need 16 AS to double all Paladins in Chapter 20, 15 to double the weaker, more common ones. That's right, Matthis has enough AS to double lategame Paladins at 20/3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATS Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) Julian cannot be allowed full credit for anything thief-related after Ricardo joins. You'll have to divide its abstract worth by two, or something in that direction. Indeed, I agree. However, I assume that others don't, because Rickard is still ranked as the 6th worst unit in the game. If he got credit for even half of thief utility's worth, then he would be higher, considering how high Julian is. Matthis has 1 base level on Vyland and is recruited a chapter earlier. They won't be the same level. Yes, he'll get to level 20 earlier. However, he won't gain two levels as a Sniper before Vyland gets his next 1-2 levels as a Curate and promotes. A one level lead would be more appropriate. And don't even try to say that the Lena support is unreliable, because we have no reason not to keep Lena alive for Hammerh4x. Perhaps, but we certainly have reason to not field Lena between the earlygame and Ch 20, in which case Matthis can't build his support with her. Meanwhile, you forgot Vyland's Hardin support. Also, Vyland has a 0% growth in Strength and Defense as a Curate, while Matthis has 10% and 5% respectively, which means that Vyland has less of an incentive to go Curate in the first place, in which case Matthis roflstomps him even more. What sort of argument is this? If Vyland would fare worse as other classes, then no, he won't use them and he'll stick with Curate. Edited November 15, 2009 by CATS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) No, it isn't. For instance, you need 16 AS to double all Paladins in Chapter 20, 15 to double the weaker, more common ones. That's right, Matthis has enough AS to double lategame Paladins at 20/3. Your point being...? He showed 2 stats. I gave all of the numbers. Yes, he'll get to level 20 earlier. However, he won't gain two levels as a Sniper before Vyland gets his next 1-2 levels as a Curate and promotes. A one level lead would be more appropriate. Why not? Matthis gets Mend, Barrier, and Warp sooner, allowing for more EXP. Matthis is going to reach level 20 way faster, which also makes him much less vulnerable as a Curate. Perhaps, but we certainly have reason to not field Lena between the earlygame and Ch 20, in which case Matthis can't build his support with her. The mode unit slot count for Chapters 6-20 is 14 units. Our core team will probably only be around 8~ units, with a few utility units. I dobut we will ever be using 14 characters at once, period. Lena's auto-C staves is always welcome. Meanwhile, you forgot Vyland's Hardin support. Vyland gives bonuses to Hardin, but Hardin doesn't give bonuses to Vyland. What sort of argument is this? If Vyland would fare worse as other classes, then no, he won't use them and he'll stick with Curate. I was merely mentioning it. I see that you have no problems with my speed argument. Do you admit that Vyland's AS leads are superfluous? Edited November 15, 2009 by Ninji Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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