H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Gordon exists. Use an Iron Bow if you know if he's going to get hit. If you can help him kill and no other enemies are in range, then use Steel. If anything, Gordon luring an enemy while equipped with Iron (and not getting killed) is actually a good thing since it allows your units to get a kill while retreating.

Simple as that. Even with Iron, chip damage is still helpful for weakening enemies.

[Tino]

@ Levin: Difficulty has nothing to do with it. It is whether it's more efficient to protect him, or if it's more efficient not to protect him, and the latter is the option we then pick, because protecting Gordon, the largest enemy magnet you can think of, what with him not countering and being one-rounded, is incredibly inefficient.

Gordon exists. Use an Iron Bow if you know if he's going to get hit. If you can help him kill and no other enemies are in range, then use Steel. If anything, Gordon luring an enemy while equipped with Iron (and not getting killed) is actually a good thing since it allows your units to get a kill while retreating.

Simple as that. Even with Iron, chip damage is still helpful for weakening enemies.

He's dealing a pitiful 6 damage, and with that, he's still an incredible enemy magnet. He takes 9 damage, and if Gordon can get attacked by one enemy in the situation you're presenting (using him to lure enemies), then the chance that there's another enemy who can attack him is fairly big as well, getting him killed anyway.

He's getting killed very easily, while he doesn't add anything else to the team. He's an inefficient enemy magnet with Steel, and he deals pitiful damage with Iron and then still is a defensive failure (and then I really mean a failure, not getting three-rounded like Abel and Kain, for examlpe, do).

Edited March 4, 2009 by Tino

[Rodykitty]

@ Levin: Difficulty has nothing to do with it. It is whether it's more efficient to protect him, or if it's more efficient not to protect him, and the latter is the option we then pick, because protecting Gordon, the largest enemy magnet you can think of, what with him not countering and being one-rounded, is incredibly inefficient.

Protecting Gordon is as simple as keeping him out of range. If you have to build a wall around Gordon, then you aren't tackling the chapter well enough anyway.

And his durability disadvantage is already accounted for and thus why he's not a high tier, but what the thing is that his offensive capabilities actually exist this chapter despite your constant moaning that he doesn't.

while he doesn't add anything else to the team.

He adds to the team. No unit ever takes away from a team, not even crappy units, and he actually has an offensive aid that can help in this chapter.

Helping to kill enemies = efficiency, because killing enemies = the faster you can get through the chapter without screwing around. Killing enemies also makes it safer for everyone. As for Gordon's own durability, yes it sucks, and it is keeping him from being high tier, but his utility as a true teamwork character keep him from being "lolfail" this chapter.

[Tino]

Protecting Gordon is as simple as keeping him out of range. If you have to build a wall around Gordon, then you aren't tackling the chapter well enough anyway.

So now it's the player's ability to "play a chapter right" that starts mattering? lol

Why wouldn't I build a wall around Marth, because he also dies pretty quickly, and is far more required than Gordon? Or how about Abel? Or Kain, because he doesn't have 2 range? Just because you don't want Gordon to be fail? Now that's fail.

And his durability disadvantage is already accounted for and thus why he's not a high tier, but what the thing is that his offensive capabilities actually exist this chapter despite your constant moaning that he doesn't.

I'm not saying his offensive capabilities don't exist. I've admitted that his offense is pretty decent with Steel. However, as I have also said multiple times by now, when he gets to use his good offense with Steel, his durability also sucks very hard. He gets one-rounded, attracts many enemies because of that, and attracts even more enemies because he doesn't counter.

His offense is existent, but when it is, his durability is basically non-existent. If his offense is pretty non-existent, his durability is still a load of crap due to not countering and getting two-rounded.

He adds to the team. No unit ever takes away from a team, not even crappy units, and he actually has an offensive aid that can help in this chapter.

Sucking = Being a detriment = Being better off when not user, and this applies to Gordon easily.

Helping to kill enemies = efficiency, because killing enemies = the faster you can get through the chapter without screwing around. Killing enemies also makes it safer for everyone. As for Gordon's own durability, yes it sucks, and it is keeping him from being high tier, but his utility as a true teamwork character keep him from being "lolfail" this chapter.

Don't make me laugh. His utility as a teamwork character? The team has to work incredibly hard to keep him alive, not the other way around. So if anything, he's not exactly a teamwork character, but more one that reduces the team's overall efficiency.

Oh yeah, and killing enemies isn't the only thing that adds to efficiency, and I'm sure you know that. Things like "does the unit kill the performance of the rest of the team?" and "can the unit actually survive?" are also things that are considered, and none of these two questions give positive answers when talking about Gordon, because he kills the performance of the rest of the team because he absolutely requires to be walled, and he can't survive due to his lolfail durability.

[Rodykitty]

Why wouldn't I build a wall around Marth, because he also dies pretty quickly, and is far more required than Gordon? Or how about Abel? Or Kain, because he doesn't have 2 range? Just because you don't want Gordon to be fail? Now that's fail.

Building a wall around Gordon isn't required.

The team has to work incredibly hard to keep him alive, not the other way around. So if anything, he's not exactly a teamwork character, but more one that reduces the team's overall efficiency.

Not really, keeping Gordon alive is as simple as keeping him out of enemy range. This is something Gordon himself can do to keep himself alive.

However, as I have also said multiple times by now, when he gets to use his good offense with Steel, his durability also sucks very hard. He gets one-rounded, attracts many enemies because of that, and attracts even more enemies because he doesn't counter.

Which is why you only use Steel when you know you can. You're assuming that every single instance Gordon attacks is going to put him in danger. It doesn't take much prowess to realize if you're moving Gordon into danger or not.

Things like "does the unit kill the performance of the rest of the team?"

No.

and "can the unit actually survive?" are also things that are considered, and none of these two questions give positive answers when talking about Gordon, because he kills the performance of the rest of the team because he absolutely requires to be walled, and he can't survive due to his lolfail durability.

Gordon isn't being walled.

[Mekkah]

If Gordin cannot counter anyway, who cares if he also gets one-rounded? It doesn't really detract anything - equipping a Steel Bow just makes him go from "has to be shielded" to "has to be shielded" - woah, big deal.

[Dat Nick]

and since Gordin actually has hit with the steel bow [something Abel lacks with javelin] you'll likely finish the target before it can even attack Gordin, and you really only take pirates on one at a time.

[Tino]

Meh, I admit my defeat on this one. My arguments were pretty exaggerated and perhaps a little biased as well.

But anyway, besides this whole Gordon shit, is there anything else you think is wrong with the arguments I presented?

[Rodykitty]

But anyway, besides this whole Gordon shit, is there anything else you think is wrong with the arguments I presented?

Let's talk about Doga. I understand his reasonings for jumping up, but I myself don't use Doga much so I am wondering what Sweet Tooth thinks.

[grandjackal]

Let's talk about Doga. I understand his reasonings for jumping up, but I myself don't use Doga much so I am wondering what Sweet Tooth thinks.

I'd basically see Doga as FE6's Boris, except everyone not Jeigan's getting their ass kicked anyways, and with actually reliable hit. Methinks he deserves to be where he is.

[Tino]

I'd basically see Doga as FE6's Boris, except everyone not Jeigan's getting their ass kicked anyways, and with actually reliable hit. Methinks he deserves to be where he is.

Doga is not like Bors at all. Not in this chapter, at least. He doesn't get doubled and he can take four hits before dying, which is a lot. And he also has a pretty strong counter, so he also deals pretty decent damage when he gets attacked, while he doesn't really risk dying so much as others.

But I guess we should also see what Sweet Tooth thinks of it. It's his list after all.

[grandjackal]

Doga is not like Bors at all. Not in this chapter, at least. He doesn't get doubled and he can take four hits before dying, which is a lot. And he also has a pretty strong counter, so he also deals pretty decent damage when he gets attacked, while he doesn't really risk dying so much as others.

But I guess we should also see what Sweet Tooth thinks of it. It's his list after all.

Aren't there a couple pirates that CAN double him though? If that's the case, I fail to see how he's different from Boris at all, aside from the fact that everyone else around him are getting their asses handed to them while all he has to really worry about are the doubler pirates. He's basically Superhero Boris.

[Tino]

As far as I know and recall, all the Chapter 1 Pirates have 6 AS, which means none of them can double. The only dude who can double him is that Hunter, but he deals very pitiful damage, so that doesn't matter anyway.

[grandjackal]

As far as I know and recall, all the Chapter 1 Pirates have 6 AS, which means none of them can double. The only dude who can double him is that Hunter, but he deals very pitiful damage, so that doesn't matter anyway.

I could have sworn I saw a video where he got doubled by a pirate...There's no stat variables for enemies in this game?

[Tino]

In Chapter 2, perhaps, but I just checked, and there are no Pirates with 7 or more AS. They all have 6.

[grandjackal]

In Chapter 2, perhaps, but I just checked, and there are no Pirates with 7 or more AS. They all have 6.

Very well then, he's still Super Boris. He's just Boris if he can't be doubled (which would have helped Boris out A LOT. Tough luck, Boris...)

[Rodykitty]

Correction, Boris is like Doga.

FE1 came before FE6.

[Tino]

Very well then, he's still Super Boris. He's just Boris if he can't be doubled (which would have helped Boris out A LOT. Tough luck, Boris...)

That's a load of bullshit, because Bors gets two-rounded in his joining chapter, while Doga gets five-rounded. Oh, and Bors's offense sucks ass, too, while Doga can deal a pretty good bit of damage per blow. He's far better than Boris.

[grandjackal]

That's a load of bullshit, because Bors gets two-rounded in his joining chapter, while Doga gets five-rounded. Oh, and Bors's offense sucks ass, too, while Doga can deal a pretty good bit of damage per blow. He's far better than Boris.

You do realize it's because Doga avoids being doubled he has his durability and Boris's offense sucks because he can't reliably hit shit thanks to the avoid system of FE6, right? Their stats are near identical. Doga just has pirates with one less speed to deal with and an avoid system that doesn't royally fuck him over. Thus, Super Boris.

And fine, Boris is Bitch Doga, whatever.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Destiny Furry

[Tino]

You do realize it's because Doga avoids being doubled he has his durability and Boris's offense sucks because he can't reliably hit shit thanks to the avoid system of FE6, right? Their stats are near identical. Doga just has pirates with one less speed to deal with and an avoid system that doesn't royally fuck him over. Thus, Super Boris.

And fine, Boris is Bitch Doga, whatever.

You look at raw stats, I look at performance. What does it matter if Doga is "Super Boris" or not? This is really a worthless discussion, and instead I'd like some real arguments about Doga and if he should be lower (if there are any objections to where I've placed him).

[Rodykitty]

(if there are any objections to where I've placed him).

I have no objections to your arguments, but also keep in mind that you don't control any tier lists. You didn't place him anywhere yet, we'll just have to wait until Sweet Tooth comes around since he's been doing the chapter specific tier lists.

[Tino]

I have no objections to your arguments, but also keep in mind that you don't control any tier lists. You didn't place him anywhere yet, we'll just have to wait until Sweet Tooth comes around since he's been doing the chapter specific tier lists.

I also didn't mean it as if I control this entire list. Stop making those assumptions >_>

[grandjackal]

You look at raw stats, I look at performance. What does it matter if Doga is "Super Boris" or not? This is really a worthless discussion, and instead I'd like some real arguments about Doga and if he should be lower (if there are any objections to where I've placed him).

Yeah, that much is true. Just I thought about it, then you brought it up, I responded, I'm just glad we caught it early. I don't want another OlwenxEyrios...

Otherwise, I've no problem with Doga being below Jeigan as the top players for chapter 1. *rechecks through the other lists*

[Rodykitty]

I also didn't mean it as if I control this entire list. Stop making those assumptions >_>

You tend to act like your suggestions are set in stone, which is an attitude that really irks me.

Doga will probably get raised up since everyone agrees he should, unless there is something about him we've all been missing (which isn't too likely).

[Florete]

An honest question: What makes Ogma so good? I've used him in both runs (H1 and currently on H5) and he's only ever average at best. Did I get screwed or is there a specific class I should switch him to?

Edited March 5, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire