H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

If Roshe rises, Radd needs to skyrocket.

Pretty much, and I'm seeing Vyland and Matthis falling instead.

[_____]

Seriously, Matthis and Vyland can not go below Jeorge.

They beat him in every single parameter from 20/1 on. Requiring a Master Seal does not make him > them.

I mean, seriously, 20/2 Curate -> Sniper Matthis is 3RKO'd by Cavs in Chapter 11. 20/20 Jeorge is still 2RKO'd by them. Meanwhile, Matthis 2RKOs the dude, while Jeorge needs to be 20/6 to not 3RKO him. 20/6! Holy shit, the man needs to have gained 5 levels in 1 and a half chapters in order to even 2RKO cavs, the enemies he's supposed to be good against!

[CATS]

And I'll do the reverse and say that some units may get RNG blessed and thus not want the speedwing. Equal odds of it happening.

Colonel M seemed to be arguing that most of your units will not need that Speedwing, though. If 8 units are normally fine without it, while 3 units normally want it, the odds are higher for someone out of the 8 getting screwed than someone out of the 3 getting blessed.

[Rodykitty]

They beat him in every single parameter from 20/1 on. Requiring a Master Seal does not make him > them.

You're right. Having actual utility > these guys.

I'm going to drop them both below Jeorge, then we'll go from here.

Edited November 16, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Colonel M]

And I'll do the reverse and say that some units may get RNG blessed and thus not want the speedwing. Equal odds of it happening.

Colonel M seemed to be arguing that most of your units will not need that Speedwing, though. If 8 units are normally fine without it, while 3 units normally want it, the odds are higher for someone out of the 8 getting screwed than someone out of the 3 getting blessed.

You also have to remember that some of those 8 units won't need Speed (for example Hunter or AK -> General routes).

Also since we most likely assume averages are happening RNG-screwing is unlikely to make a groundbreaking effect on someone getting a resource as like BBlader said the reverse can also happen.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

You also have to remember that some of those 8 units won't need Speed (for example Hunter or AK -> General routes).

They might if you don't want to force them into the Hunter class for whatever reason (such as already having other bow users or because you want FIGHTERS). Edited November 16, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Colonel M]

You also have to remember that some of those 8 units won't need Speed (for example Hunter or AK -> General routes).

They might if you don't want to force them into the Hunter class for whatever reason (such as already having other bow users or because you want FIGHTERS).

Erm... is this a personal attack at me?

I mean I can understand why but...

Edited November 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

On the redheads and George issue...*ahem*

If they went Curate, they'd have the ability to instantly retreat on staff utility on a higher level than George could dream of at that time. They could also switch to Swordmaster as to put their greater speed to better use. George cannot do this. Why? 24 HP, 4 Def and Swrds in a world of lances and bastards with 28 mt when George enters your team...

Also, what utility does George have that they wouldn't? They wouldn't be able to use silver (for a bit), but they'd be doubling in compensation. All George would reall have on them is a bit of acc. Hell, I could just say after curate they could go draco for the spear bonus on their already existing D rank, having them close to C for Ridersbane.

Really, I don't see why a crest use should put them below him when it's all it takes to have them spanking him for the rest of forever. To have utility, you need to not suck. Gordon at level 11 by then would have B bows and 7 Str, which is EXACTLY WHAT GEORGE HAS, and George's 12 speed doesn't double dick. I could promote Gordon at 13 (a pretty realistic level for the early promo), and Gordon would be outperforming him because at least 13 speed doubles some of the slower end cavs. Their speed growht is similar, so in time when George gets 13 speed, Gordon has 14 to double cavs in general.

Again, what utility does George pose outside of not needing a crest? He's not like Minerva, he still sucks. He has utility on par to an umpromoted Gordon, I'm not impressed.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Rodykitty]

Erm... is this a personal attack at me?

No.

Again, what utility does George pose outside of not needing a crest?

Ch. 9 & 10.

[Colonel M]

One thing Grandjackal's comparison forgets:

Parthia.

[Rodykitty]

One thing Grandjackal's comparison forgets:

Parthia.

"But Gordon will be using it by the time you get it!"

[grandjackal]

Ch. 9 & 10.

It's not utility if people can easily tie or outperform you at that time. It's not unique to him, because Gordon is well and able to do the exact same thing by the time he shows up. Then Vyland or Matthis promotes and immedately leaves blondie in the dust. You seriously saying having Gordon's performance for free for 2 chapters is better than Vyland and Matthis easily able to outperform him from promotion onward?

Which case, Gordon needs to rise because apparently he DOES improve, if he can easily get to George's level of "utility" for the same time, and ALSO proceeds to leave him in the dust post promotion (ok, it's 2 STR and 1 Speed with some durability (I guess to fight other ranged fighters???), but it's a damning amount).

[Rodykitty]

You know what?

I'm just going to toss Vyland and Matthis right above Roshea. Since you want to hype Gordon so much, this implies that Gordon is so much better than them anyway.

There is no real reason for Roshea to rise, and we've just learned that Linda doesn't suck as much as we thought.

This is a much better decision than rising Roshea. That, and I remember there being discussion in the past as to why Radd > Roshea.

So this is how it's going to be, and we'll work from here.

[grandjackal]

You know what?

I'm just going to toss Vyland and Matthis right above Roshea. Since you want to hype Gordon so much, this implies that Gordon is so much better than them anyway.

There is no real reason for Roshea to rise, and we've just learned that Linda doesn't suck as much as we thought.

This is a much better decision than rising Roshea. That, and I remember there being discussion in the past as to why Radd > Roshea.

So this is how it's going to be, and we'll work from here.

I'm not hyping Gordon, I'm just finding the idea that George has "utility" is stupid. Gordon has earlygame utility+is able to handle whatever the fuck George is supposed to be doing just as well, also without a promotion item (though once he gets it, even Gordon's outperformng him, however minorly it may be).Therefore Gordon should at least be a tier above him.

I'm saying if you're dropping Matthis and Vyland, you should drop George too.

[dondon151]

It's not utility if people can easily tie or outperform you at that time. It's not unique to him, because Gordon is well and able to do the exact same thing by the time he shows up...

Which case, Gordon needs to rise because apparently he DOES improve, if he can easily get to George's level of "utility" for the same time, and ALSO proceeds to leave him in the dust post promotion (ok, it's 2 STR and 1 Speed with some durability (I guess to fight other ranged fighters???), but it's a damning amount).

Gordin needs to be 11/0 to tie Jeorge in base str, and he may not have rank for Silver Bow, and he is definitely not closer to A rank than Jeorge is. The first Master Seal comes at chapter 10. Now, I know that we generally tier units on this list by just giving them a Master Seal whenever we want, and I don't want to open up a whole can of worms, but Gordin is not even a remotely good choice for a chapter 10 promotion.

[Colonel M]

It's not utility if people can easily tie or outperform you at that time. It's not unique to him, because Gordon is well and able to do the exact same thing by the time he shows up...

Which case, Gordon needs to rise because apparently he DOES improve, if he can easily get to George's level of "utility" for the same time, and ALSO proceeds to leave him in the dust post promotion (ok, it's 2 STR and 1 Speed with some durability (I guess to fight other ranged fighters???), but it's a damning amount).

Gordin needs to be 11/0 to tie Jeorge in base str, and he may not have rank for Silver Bow, and he is definitely not closer to A rank than Jeorge is. The first Master Seal comes at chapter 10. Now, I know that we generally tier units on this list by just giving them a Master Seal whenever we want, and I don't want to open up a whole can of worms, but Gordin is not even a remotely good choice for a chapter 10 promotion.

Using Archer as well, getting him to such a level seems to be a challenge with his pisspoor performance (nonexistant Str and Archer penalties).

[_____]

You know what?

I'm just going to toss Vyland and Matthis right above Roshea. Since you want to hype Gordon so much, this implies that Gordon is so much better than them anyway.

There is no real reason for Roshea to rise, and we've just learned that Linda doesn't suck as much as we thought.

This is a much better decision than rising Roshea. That, and I remember there being discussion in the past as to why Radd > Roshea.

So this is how it's going to be, and we'll work from here.

You put them underneath of Boah, Ymir, Macellan, Bantu, and Etzel. They roflstomp these guys.

I'm getting tired of you moving characters seemingly randomly without actually looking at who they're moving with.

[Rodykitty]

You put them underneath of Boah, Ymir, Macellan, Bantu, and Etzel.

Some may or may not drop, but that's an issue that can be looked into (Macellan and Bantu in particular will be the first to plunge).

You pretty much doomed Vyland and Machis to Roshea's level. Sorry.

[_____]

You put them underneath of Boah, Ymir, Macellan, Bantu, and Etzel.

Some may or may not drop, but that's an issue that can be looked into (Macellan and Bantu in particular will be the first to plunge).

You pretty much doomed Vyland and Machis to Roshea's level. Sorry.

You still haven't even said anything to them dropping when it comes to going below Jeorge but "Jeorge has chapters 9 and 10 to build up utility!", which is an awful argument, because they are much better than him throughout the rest of the midgame and Chapter 9 is halfway done when he's recruited anyway. The only thing that I can see that would give Jeorge any type of advantage that was noticeable at all would be sniping the reinforcements/severly damaging Wyverns Chapter 10, but that does not beat winning by quite a bit in every chapter that follows. Jeorge getting Parthia earlier may lower the offensive gap, but once Matthis/Vyland/maybe Roshe reach A bows, or when it runs out, he's finished.

It doesn't make any sense to keep him above them. They should not have dropped in the first place.

Even if they were worse than him for a chapter, which they aren't, they have staves to fall back on so that they keep their negative utility to a minimum.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Ninji

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

and Etzel.

To be honest, Etzel is pretty decent as a lategame healer if you feel like you're lacking some by the time he joins even if his stats and growths aren't too great.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Joey

[Rodykitty]

You still haven't even said anything to them dropping when it comes to going below Jeorge but "Jeorge has chapters 9 and 10 to build up utility!", which is an awful argument,

You don't need a good argument to prove that someone is better than Roshea.

Regardless, even if all five characters drops below Roshea, the list will still be more accurate than if Roshea jumped up on the tier list.

[_____]

and Etzel.

To be honest, Etzel is pretty decent as a lategame healer if you feel like you're lacking some by the time he joins even if his stats and growths aren't too great.

The problem with that is that Matthis and Vyland already have a better staff rank by Chapter 10, and, even if kept as Sages, stomp him in stats, particularly Vyland, who has enough speed to actually double as a Sage. Etzel has auto-B tomes, but DracoKnights aren't even close to being common until later in the game, when it's very possible (likely, even) for those two to have built up their tome rank.

His only win is not taking a Master Seal. That does not beat all of this. It's keeping them below Minerva, not someone like Jeorge or Etzel.

You don't need a good argument to prove that someone is better than Roshea.

There is no argument, though.

Regardless, even if all five characters drops below Roshea, the list will still be more accurate than if Roshea jumped up on the tier list.

...

Didn't I just say that and you decided to drop Matthis and Vyland instead?

What the hell?

Edited November 16, 2009 by Ninji

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

and Etzel.

To be honest, Etzel is pretty decent as a lategame healer if you feel like you're lacking some by the time he joins even if his stats and growths aren't too great.

The problem with that is that Matthis and Vyland already have a better staff rank by Chapter 10, and, even if kept as Sages, stomp him in stats, particularly Vyland, who has enough speed to actually double as a Sage. Etzel has auto-B tomes, but DracoKnights aren't even close to being common until later in the game, when it's very possible (likely, even) for those two to have built up their tome rank.

His only win is not taking a Master Seal. That does not beat all of this. It's keeping them below Minerva, not someone like Jeorge or Etzel.

Level 20/6 Curate-Sage Matthis and Vyland will have about 6 Magic, Etzel joins as level 6 promoted with 11 magic. And keep in mind I didn't mention using Etzel for combat but strictly for healing purposes and will only attack if no units whatsoever need healing which are very rare moments in H5 mode which means it doesn't matter if he can double or not since his main focus here is being a healer which he will be doing a lot.

Also, Master Seals are very scarce in this game without the use of the Online Shop and there are MANY other units that would benefit more from the seals than Matthis and Vyland so not requiring a seal is an even bigger win for Etzel.

[_____]

Level 20/6 Curate-Sage Matthis and Vyland will have about 6 Magic, Etzel joins as level 6 promoted with 11 magic. And keep in mind I didn't mention using Etzel for combat but strictly for healing purposes and will only attack if no units whatsoever need healing which are very rare moments in H5 mode which means it doesn't matter if he can double or not since his main focus here is being a healer which he will be doing a lot.

You're saying that combat/durability leads mean nothing because he can heal 2 more points of HP.

Riiiiiiiight.

Also, Master Seals are very scarce in this game without the use of the Online Shop and there are MANY other units that would benefit more from the seals than Matthis and Vyland so not requiring a seal is an even bigger win for Etzel.

Most of the time, we're using a smaller team, as it is more efficient. The amount of units that require Master Seals when using this small team is not as much as you seem to think it is, and thus, the cost of taking a Master Seal is nowhere near as steep as you say it is. They even have an availability lead to make up for taking a seal.

And this is Sage Matthis/Vyland. If they were Snipers, this would be even easier.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Ninji

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Most of the time, we're using a smaller team, as it is more efficient. The amount of units that require Master Seals when using this small team is not as much as you seem to think it is, and thus, the cost of taking a Master Seal is nowhere near as steep as you say it is.

Keep in mind though if you want to do an H5 run as efficient as possible there are many candidates that are way better that join un-promoted for that small team.