H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

Yes, it is. I just booted up a C21 save. I went to all the gaidens, killed as many enemies as possible, and my highest non-Merric unit is still just Catria at 20/8 whereas guys like Abel/Cain/Cord are 20/6, Dolph is 20/3. I don't remember what level I got Minerva to by C20, but I'm pretty damn sure it wasn't 15.

This was mid-chapter 21 btw

SPEAKING of Merric, he was only 20/14 and he got the first seal. If freaking Merric can't get to 20/15 by C21 why should Matthis be able to get to 20/15 or close two chapters earlier when he performs notably worse than Merric?

Edited November 18, 2009 by laws b122

[_____]

Alright.

He can't double Paladins in Chapter 20.

The funny thing is that that is his worst chapter in the entire lategame. Everything else has a plethora of DracoKnights. He doesn't double them (ever), but he sure as hell 2RKOs them.

Edit: Another thing to consider is supports. Vyland, Roshe, and Matthis all have them. Jeorge doesn't. Yay for even better durability and now crit.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ninji

[Dat Nick]

Let's not go hyping supports, Matthis's avo is still terribly unreliable with them.

[_____]

Let's not go hyping supports, Matthis's avo is still terribly unreliable with them.

Everyone's avoid is unreliable, even with supports. I'm just saying that +10 avoid can't hurt, especially when enemies pull out braves and take an accuracy hit.

[Rodykitty]

One really has to be grasping for straws to argue supports as tier gap worthy.

[CATS]

Then what point are you trying to make? There's an opportunity cost. This has been established. Perhaps the opportunity cost for the first seal is higher than one of the chapter 12 seals (which, even if Matthis and Vyland got instead of the first, they would still > Jeorge). Even the elevated cost of the first seal is nowhere near enough to make up for stomping Jeorge from chapters 11 on, or 12x on, if you want to give them one of the chapter 12 ones.

My whole point is that it's totally unreasonable to give them the first seal at all, precisely because of the huge opportunity cost. You don't just say "oh yeah, there's an opportunity cost" then assume they get the first seal regardless and say "oh look, lol they still win."

[Rewjeo]

How many people do we expect to be ready to promote at chapter 10? There's healers, but we shouldn't have a ton of unpromoted healers, and maybe a few others. It's not like there's a whole bunch of people lined up to promote with the first master seal, is there?

[Dat Nick]

15/1 Cord is fine

[CATS]

Even unpromoted healers shouldn't be ready to promote that early. It took me until 12x for Merric to hit 20 on my current run. And by then, most of my fighters were around 14/15, which is plenty high enough for them to appreciate a promotion.

[Rodykitty]

The opportunity cost for healers taking the Master Seal is probably not as large as we think:

Rena & Wrys: Can just stay as Cleric/Priest and keep their utility

Merric: Good enough to return to Mage and wait on promotion (obviously this is a negative, but Merric is the one good Sage besides Sheeda who usually goes Mage to get there)

Bunch of Class Set A pre-promotes: Free Bishops

This leaves characters like Matthis or Vyland competing with other fail that has to go Cleric to level up or characters that are promoting early for the first Master Seals.

Edited November 18, 2009 by FE3 Player

[CATS]

If Lena and Wrys are still hanging around, then yeah. You likely won't bother to promote them at all until very late, assuming that you don't just kill them off at some point (in Wrys's case, atleast).

Promoting Merric is significantly more beneficial than promoting someone like Curate Matthis, for reasons I outlined earlier. Shiida also wants to promote as soon as she caps her Spd and Lck, which happens around L16-17.

Then you have the "characters that are promoting early" that you mentioned, which is most of the combat units. Once they hit around ~L15, the drop in Exp gains from promotion is more than outweighed by the gains in stats, movement and weapon ranks.

[Don Draper]

There is no drop in experience if you promote at Level 15, as the class bonus for a promoted unit is 15 (as opposed to 20 like in the GBA games). Well, technically you're treated as if you're Level 16 (1 level+15 bonus), but its not significant enough to make a difference. Promoting at 15 makes the most logical sense, as you reap the benefits of promotion far sooner, and there are no drawbacks.

Example: Chapter 12 Cav is level 7

15 Cord gets (54-8)/3= 15.333 experience for a kill

15/1 Cord gets (54-9)/3= 15 experience for a kill

Example: Chapter 12 General is level 1

15 Cord gets 30 + (1 x 3.33)= 33 experience for a kill

15/1 Cord gets 30 + 0 = 30 experience for a kill

Not significant at all. I would go as far as to say that every character in the game wants to promote at 15/1, unless the growths in their initial class are essential (Draug needs to get speed as a hunter, etc).

Edited November 18, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

There is no drop in experience if you promote at Level 15, as the class bonus for a promoted unit is 15 (as opposed to 20 like in the GBA games). Well, technically you're treated as if you're Level 16 (1 level+15 bonus), but its not significant enough to make a difference. Promoting at 15 makes the most logical sense, as you reap the benefits of promotion far sooner, and there are no drawbacks.

Very nice catch. I never thought of it in this way. We never assume level 20/20 anyway, so there is absolutely no reason not to promote at level 15.

EDIT: JUst now saw the rest of your post. I had my browser on writing this post for like 30 minutes.

(Draug needs to get speed as a hunter, etc).

The only Physical class where Draug isn't getting much speed is Armor Knight, and he still has a great growth in speed (40%), just not a good base. Hunter!Draug at level 15 is already blazing fast, and an early promotion hands him +2 Speed among other bonuses. Edited November 18, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Colonel M]

Nah, you have about 18 Spd by Level 15. Even if you dropped to General (16 Spd) that's enough to prevent yourself from being doubled / quadrupled barring enemies such as Mamkutes and if, somehow, you didn't get a single Spd point, Pegasi / C22 Dracos.

[CrashGordon94]

Do you mind if I ask, why did Bord and Darros suddenly jump up the Tier List?

[Dat Nick]

Daros has been upper mid forever and Bord has been there for a while too

also, AK>General

[Colonel M]

Next time if you have questions like that, look at the ranking guide I wrote up. It has useful info explaining most of the stuff.

[_____]

One really has to be grasping for straws to argue supports as tier gap worthy.

I'm just saying that +10 avoid can't hurt

Gamebreaking? No. +10 avoid and +5 crit are still an advantage, though, even if it's a very small one. :/

My whole point is that it's totally unreasonable to give them the first seal at all, precisely because of the huge opportunity cost. You don't just say "oh yeah, there's an opportunity cost" then assume they get the first seal regardless and say "oh look, lol they still win."

Um, actually, you can. You can't just say "everyone wants the seal, so nobody gets the seal". There is an opportunity cost for Vyland and Matthis. There's an opportunity cost for everyone that needs to use one. I have never denied this.

Someone will use the seal. This person will have to deal with the negative of taking the first seal. I want to know why Matthis and Vyland are getting such a huge penalty from taking the first seal, while someone like Merric is barely getting penalized at all. Yes, Merric is a much better character than Matthis and Vyland. However, having him promote has the same effect as having someone like Matthis or Vyland promote; it blocks out the promotion of everyone else on the team who can promote. Say Barst wants to promote. Merric promoting means that Barst can't. It's the same thing for Matthis and Vyland. Why is it, then, that Merric is basically assumed to have the first seal almost cost free, while Matthis and Vyland getting the first seal is so ridiculously absurd that it will never happen?

And if you want to go with "Most Improved from the First Seal" as you criteria, well, I'd say that Matthis and Vyland win that over Merric, actually. Merric can fall back on Mage until one of the Chapter 12 seals come. Matthis and Vyland can't. Matthis and Vyland promoting is actually more beneficial to the team than Merric promoting, when the two are competing for the same seal and are all being used fully.

All I want is consistency. Favoring High Tier units over Low Tier units when the Low Tier unit is assumed to be used, and the High Tier may or may not be used doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't apply to most other units on the list. Why should it apply here?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ninji

[CATS]

Um, actually, you can. You can't just say "everyone wants the seal, so nobody gets the seal". There is an opportunity cost for Vyland and Matthis. There's an opportunity cost for everyone that needs to use one. I have never denied this.

The opportunity cost goes down as you progress further into the game. More Seals become available and more units promote, thus reducing the number of units competing for a Seal. Eventually the opportunity cost is low enough that you can reasonably assume a promotion (probably around Ch 15 or 16 for these guys).

In Ch 11, you have only one Seal, and that one Seal functions exactly like a stat booster since nearly everyone can use it. When dealing with stat boosters, you'll notice that "everyone wants it, and thus you can't assume that any particular unit gets it" is exactly the case, and thus stat boosters are almost entirely ignored in tier discussions precisely because of the large opportunity cost for them. The Ch 11 Seal is no different.

Someone will use the seal. This person will have to deal with the negative of taking the first seal. I want to know why Matthis and Vyland are getting such a huge penalty from taking the first seal, while someone like Merric is barely getting penalized at all.

You're going to have to take that up with the person who's arguing that Merric always gets the first seal with no strings attached.

Edited November 18, 2009 by CATS

[_____]

The opportunity cost goes down as you progress further into the game. More Seals become available and more units promote, thus reducing the number of units competing for a Seal.

This is common sense.

Eventually the opportunity cost is low enough that you can reasonably assume a promotion (probably around Ch 15 or 16 for these guys).

No. By chapter 13 is more than reasonable. We have 3 Master Seal by that point.

In Ch 11, you have only one Seal, and that one Seal functions exactly like a stat booster since nearly everyone can use it. When dealing with stat boosters, you'll notice that "everyone wants it, and thus you can't assume that any particular unit gets it" is exactly the case, and thus stat boosters are almost entirely ignored in tier discussions precisely because of the large opportunity cost for them. The Ch 11 Seal is no different.

Except that it is. We know that someone will use the Master Seal. Almost everyone needs to use one. That first Master Seal will almost never go unused. The stat booster? Not so much.

You're going to have to take that up with the person who's arguing that Merric always gets the first seal with no strings attached.

We all assume that Merric can get the first Master Seal when we are comparing him with other characters. That's why Merric is as high as he is.

Matthis even joins in the same chapter as Merric, and yet, for some reason, Matthis/Vyland taking the Master Seal is the 8th Deadly Sin.

[CATS]

No. By chapter 13 is more than reasonable. We have 3 Master Seal by that point.

Which is still under half of the units who want one.

We know that someone will use the Master Seal. Almost everyone needs to use one. That first Master Seal will almost never go unused.

Indeed, it won't go unused. Who gets it when 10 units want it?

The stat booster? Not so much.

So......you're saying that stat boosters go unused?

We all assume that Merric can get the first Master Seal when we are comparing him with other characters. That's why Merric is as high as he is.

I don't. So once again, take that up with the people who do.

[_____]

Which is still under half of the units who want one.

Assuming that we're even going to be using 8 units that require Master Seals (you get the 8th Master Seal in Chapter 19, which is ridiculously late for someone to promote). I rather doubt that we will.

Indeed, it won't go unused. Who gets it when 10 units want it?

I believe that all should be assumed to get it, but with a cost, obviously. It's a negative for them to take the seal, but to not allow any one of them to use it is absurd.

So......you're saying that stat boosters go unused?

I'm saying that they are unnecessary, not that we won't use them.

I don't. So once again, take that up with the people who do.

Fine.

Edit: So many typos...

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ninji

[CATS]

I believe that all should be assumed to get it, but with a cost, obviously. It's a negative for them the to take the seal, but to not allow any one of them to use it as absurd.

And assuming that all 10 units get to promote with your one Master Seal is less absurd? That sounds 10x more absurd to me.

Assuming that we're even going to be using 8 units that require Master Seals (you get the 8th Master Seal in Chapter 19, which is ridiculously late for someone to promote). I rather doubt that we will.

If you're using 8 units, then the 3 Master Seals that you mentioned would still be under half.

[_____]

And assuming that all 10 units get to promote with your one Master Seal is less absurd? That sounds 10x more absurd to me.

There really is no objective way to figure out who will get the Seal.

Assuming that every unit can get it, but in seperate armies seems to be a better option than "Everyone wants it, so nobody gets it".

For instance, Vyland and Matthis both want it. We can assume that both can get it in two separate situations, i.e. Matthis' Army and Vyland's Army, where Matthis' Army has Matthis taking the seal and Vyland's Army has Vyland taking the seal.

If you're using 8 units, then the 3 Master Seals that you mentioned would still be under half.

I just said that I find using 8 units that require Master Seals to be excessive. I mean, promoting in Chapter 20 is very late.

[Interceptor]

I believe that all should be assumed to get it, but with a cost, obviously. It's a negative for them the to take the seal, but to not allow any one of them to use it as absurd.

I'd go one further and only argue someone with a Seal if it's truly the most efficient way to play that unit's army. It's not efficient to give a Seal to a unit if you have better options in the same group, so you wouldn't want to sandbag some army's efficiency by giving a Seal to a unit that wouldn't want to take it under the circumstances.

The fact that Seals can benefit Low tiers considerably, but that Low tiers are not seriously used unless they are specifically being compared, means that's not not a contradiction to compare Merric with a Seal even if he is not strictly the unit that benefits from it the most (because it's the army, that matters, not individual units). If Vyland benefits more than Merric does, that just means Vyland's army probably has a Merric without a Seal. Merric's army simply wouldn't use Vyland at all.