H5 Tier list topic

[CATS]

There really is no objective way to figure out who will get the Seal.

Thus, you shouldn't assume that it goes to any particular unit, as is my point.

For instance, Vyland and Matthis both want it. We can assume that both can get it in two separate situations, i.e. Matthis' Army and Vyland's Army, where Matthis' Army has Matthis taking the seal and Vyland's Army has Vyland taking the seal.

Sure, when you're comparing two unpromos, as long as you assume the same promotion time for both units it's w/e. It would probably be more accurate to have them both promote later than Ch 11, but it shouldn't have much effect on the comparison anyways.

However, this whole argument stemmed from V/M vs Jeorge, which is an entirely different situation. You can't do "Matthis's army has Matthis take the seal and Jeorge's army has Jeorge take the seal."

Edited November 18, 2009 by CATS

[_____]

I'd go one further and only argue someone with a Seal if it's truly the most efficient way to play that unit's army. It's not efficient to give a Seal to a unit if you have better options in the same group, so you wouldn't want to sandbag some army's efficiency by giving a Seal to a unit that wouldn't want to take it under the circumstances.

The fact that Seals can benefit Low tiers considerably, but that Low tiers are not seriously used unless they are specifically being compared, means that's not not a contradiction to compare Merric with a Seal even if he is not strictly the unit that benefits from it the most (because it's the army, that matters, not individual units). If Vyland benefits more than Merric does, that just means Vyland's army probably has a Merric without a Seal. Merric's army simply wouldn't use Vyland at all.

At the same time, we don't have a specific team that is the most efficient and will be used every single playthrough. Lower tiers are less likely to play, but shouldn't be entirely discounted from being a part of an army (such as Vyland in Merric's army).

Sure, when you're comparing two unpromos, as long as you assume the same promotion time for both units it's w/e. It would probably be more accurate to have them both promote later than Ch 11, but it shouldn't have much effect on the comparison anyways.

However, this whole argument stemmed from V/M vs Jeorge, which is an entirely different situation. You can't do "Matthis's army has Matthis the seal and Jeorge's army has Jeorge take the seal."

I wasn't trying to say that.

Since Jeorge and Matthis/Vyland are the only units that can be fully assumed to be in play, there isn't much of a reason to ban Vyland/Matthis from getting the Master Seal as early as they want/can. Now, that is not to say there will be no penalty involved; there will. Not allowing them to have the first Master Seal, however, is, as you said, an entirely different situation.

[CATS]

Since Jeorge and Matthis/Vyland are the only units that can be fully assumed to be in play, there isn't much of a reason to ban Vyland/Matthis from getting the Master Seal as early as they want/can.

Just because Matthis is the only unpromo that is guaranteed to be in play, doesn't mean that you can't assume 10 or however many other unpromos will also be in play. Rather, it's obvious that you will in fact have plenty of other unpromos in play, and regardless of exactly who they are, they'll almost certainly want a Master Seal aswell.

Edited November 18, 2009 by CATS

[Interceptor]

At the same time, we don't have a specific team that is the most efficient and will be used every single playthrough. Lower tiers are less likely to play, but shouldn't be entirely discounted from being a part of an army (such as Vyland in Merric's army).

Why don't you have a "specific" efficient team? Is it because you can't know what the team is, or because you assume it doesn't exist? Quotation marks intentional.

[_____]

Just because Matthis is the only unpromo that is guaranteed to be in play, doesn't mean that you can't assume 10 or however many other unpromos will also be in play.

Actually, it does. Team size seems to vary as much as the actual units themselves here. There really is no set team size.

Rather, it's obvious that you will in fact have plenty of other unpromos in play, and regardless of exactly who they are, they'll almost certainly want a Master Seal aswell.

Not necessarily. In fact, I'm certain that having a larger portion of your team be utility based (guys like Horace and Wendell who has periods of awesome, but then taper off, ballisticians, thieves, staff users like Wrys and Lena, etc.) is more efficient than having to raise unpromoted units, only to have them wait for Master Seals that will come much later than you would like.

Why don't you have a "specific" efficient team? Is it because you can't know what the team is, or because you assume it doesn't exist? Quotation marks intentional.

The former, mostly.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ninji

[Interceptor]

The former, mostly.

I don't believe that. The game is well-known enough and the tier list is mature enough at this point to draw sufficient conclusions. Being unable to specifically identify the precise composition of the absolute most efficient team is not a big deal when it's possible to come up with any number of extremely efficient ones.

Basically, I don't accept that tier participant knowledge of this game is so imprecise that you're forced to hand-wave things like Vyland being on Merric's team as "less likely". He's Low for a reason, is he not?

[dondon151]

There is no drop in experience if you promote at Level 15, as the class bonus for a promoted unit is 15 (as opposed to 20 like in the GBA games). Well, technically you're treated as if you're Level 16 (1 level+15 bonus), but its not significant enough to make a difference. Promoting at 15 makes the most logical sense, as you reap the benefits of promotion far sooner, and there are no drawbacks.

This is misleading. A 15/1 unit gains EXP like a 16/0 unit. A 20/6 unit, however, gains less EXP than a 20/1 unit. I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no drawbacks.

[Rodykitty]

I'm gonna chose to side with the "Master Seal is a negative" for the above explained reason, but it's also not an instant win for Jeorge since there are many other factors in the equation.

There's also the idea that Matthis or Vyland can just stay Cleric and still be of use even if they don't get the first Master Seal, though then there's the question of whether they get the second, third, etc.

Also, the rest of the team are units that have ideal traits, which is basically saying they're filled with good units. I made that condition so that it's easy to judge whose team will be stronger.

[Don Draper]

This is misleading. A 15/1 unit gains EXP like a 16/0 unit. A 20/6 unit, however, gains less EXP than a 20/1 unit. I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no drawbacks.

Obviously a 20/6 unit gains less exp than a 20/1 unit. I'm talking about a 15/6 unit vs. a 20/1 unit. And yes there is a slight loss in experience in comparison to the Level 20 unit once they promotewhich I neglected, but I would say that reaping the benefits of promotion much earlier more then makes up for it in the long run.

In regards to the "specific" efficient team, I would say that it would pretty much only include units from the Broken/High Tiers, and maybe select few from Upper Mid (Wendell for a bit, Marth and likely Lena for a bit). I would say 8-10 characters is reasonable. For example:

Marth

Cain (Cav-->Sniper)

Abel (Cav-->Sniper)

Cord (Fighter-->Hero)

Barst (Fighter-->Hero)

Merric (Curate-->Sage)

Sedgar (General)

Wolf (General)

Lena/Wendel as utility. Julian/Chainey too.

Maybe throw Draug in there too, although I'm still going to look at him a bit more closely.

Edited November 18, 2009 by IOS

[_____]

I don't believe that. The game is well-known enough and the tier list is mature enough at this point to draw sufficient conclusions. Being unable to specifically identify the precise composition of the absolute most efficient team is not a big deal when it's possible to come up with any number of extremely efficient ones.

Basically, I don't accept that tier participant knowledge of this game is so imprecise that you're forced to hand-wave things like Vyland being on Merric's team as "less likely". He's Low for a reason, is he not?

Actually, he should be Lower Mid, but I digress.

Fair enough.

I'm gonna chose to side with the "Master Seal is a negative" for the above explained reason, but it's also not an instant win for Jeorge since there are many other factors in the equation.

There's also the idea that Matthis or Vyland can just stay Cleric and still be of use even if they don't get the first Master Seal, though then there's the question of whether they get the second, third, etc.

Also, the rest of the team are units that have ideal traits, which is basically saying they're filled with good units. I made that condition so that it's easy to judge whose team will be stronger.

Master Seal is a negative as in Matthis and Vyland are not able to get the first one period, or that they can get it, but with a cost that is higher than taking, say, the 2nd or 3rd Master Seal?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ninji

[CATS]

Master Seal is a negative as in Matthis and Vyland are not able to get the first one period, or that they can get it, but with a cost that is higher than taking, say, the 2nd or 3rd Master Seal?

The cost of them taking that first seal is presumably equal to how long the next unit in line must wait before he/she can get a seal. Thus, for purposes of comparison, you might as well assume they get a later one. The effect on the comparison should be roughly the same (i.e. Matthis taking the seal, with the cost of another unit waiting, is no better than Matthis simply taking a later seal).

As for the "absolute most efficient team," I think the question is more about team size and less about which units you'll use. Obviously you'll pick from among broken and high tier units, it's just a question of how many of those you want to include. Only using 6 or 7 as opposed to say, 10, for example, has the obvious drawback of having less good units. Common sense dictates that 10 good units > 7. The 7 will have higher levels to compensate, ofcourse, and that's where the problem is. Where's the optimal number at which you have the most efficient balance of # of units + appropriately high levels?

At first glance, I'd say it's more than using just 5 Master Seal units, as Interceptor posted. On my current playthrough I'm using 14 units including Marth, and currently most of my fighters are level 15 (a good time to promote) in Ch 14, and that's after giving lots of Exp to Zagaro aswell (currently L9). Ofcourse I'm not saying that such a large team is optimal, but I do think that a team size larger than just 7 or 8 should be considered.

Edited November 18, 2009 by CATS

[_____]

The cost of them taking that first seal is presumably equal to how long the next unit in line must wait before he/she can get a seal. Thus, for purposes of comparison, you might as well assume they get a later one. The effect on the comparison should be roughly the same (i.e. Matthis taking the seal, with the cost of another unit waiting, is no better than Matthis simply taking a later seal).

I suppose. You're right in the respect that it doesn't affect this particular comparison that much.

As for the "absolute most efficient team," I think the question is more about team size and less about which units you'll use. Obviously you'll pick from among broken and high tier units, it's just a question of how many of those you want to include. Only using 6 or 7 as opposed to say, 10, for example, has the obvious drawback of having less good units. Common sense dictates that 10 good units > 7. The 7 will have higher levels to compensate, ofcourse, and that's where the problem is. Where's the optimal number at which you have the most efficient balance of # of units + appropriately high levels?

Frankly, I'd be more worried about Master Seals if those 10 units are unpromoted. One won't promote until Chapter 23. That's an absurdly long amount of time to wait. I'd take the 6-7 over that, as the latest anyone will promote is chapter 19, and they'll still be higher leveled than the 10 units.

At first glance, I'd say it's more than using just 5 Master Seal units, as Interceptor posted. On my current playthrough I'm using 14 units including Marth, and currently most of my fighters are level 15 (a good time to promote) in Ch 14, and that's after giving lots of Exp to Zagaro aswell (currently L9). Ofcourse I'm not saying that such a large team is optimal, but I do think that a team size larger than just 7 or 8 should be considered.

I would consider it as a possibility, but I sincerely wouldn't consider the most efficient.

I mean, we can obviously use a lot of utility characters to fill in the gaps that a team that doesn't have as many unpromoted, and wouldn't have to put up with the wait for Master Seals.

[Rodykitty]

I mean, we can obviously use a lot of utility characters to fill in the gaps that a team that doesn't have as many unpromoted, and wouldn't have to put up with the wait for Master Seals.

This statement is in support of Jeorge.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to define a team size. Most people are already assuming certain levels of characters regardless (the main reason to have a team size), so I will allow them freedom of personal preference.

Edited November 18, 2009 by FE3 Player

[_____]

I mean, we can obviously use a lot of utility characters to fill in the gaps that a team that doesn't have as many unpromoted, and wouldn't have to put up with the wait for Master Seals.

This statement is in support of Jeorge.

No.

A team with more utility units would have less competition for a Master Seal, meaning the Matthis/Vyland would be able to get the first at less of a cost, which means they can kick Jeorge's ass for the same period of time, but with less of a penalty.

Jeorge... wins Chapters 9 and 10.

I don't see how it would help Jeorge.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to define a team size. Most people are already assuming certain levels of characters regardless (the main reason to have a team size), so I will allow them freedom of personal preference.

It does affect Master Seals, too, though.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ninji

[Interceptor]

At first glance, I'd say it's more than using just 5 Master Seal units, as Interceptor posted.

That was IOS, not me. I don't know enough about lategame to speak to how many units are appropriate.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to define a team size. Most people are already assuming certain levels of characters regardless (the main reason to have a team size), so I will allow them freedom of personal preference.

I'd say that it's going to become clearer that certain team sizes have inherent advantages over others in terms of efficiency, eventually. Probably as soon as people start figuring out ideal platform levels for the High/Brokens at specific points in the game, which is going to require that they get a certain amount of training, which limits the size of prior deployments.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Interceptor

[Rodykitty]

Probably as soon as people start figuring out ideal platform levels for the High/Brokens at specific points in the game, which is going to require that they get a certain amount of training, which limits the size of prior deployments.

Yeah, I agree with this which is why I'd rather just let people define the levels they feel is comfortable instead of just calling out an arbitrary number of trained units since I think we can infer enough that are teams are small, especially if the resulting number ends up much smaller than 8.

[CATS]

That was IOS, not me.

My bad.

A team with more utility units would have less competition for a Master Seal, meaning the Matthis/Vyland would be able to get the first at less of a cost, which means they can kick Jeorge's ass for the same period of time, but with less of a penalty.

The point is that a small team has room to field Jeorge as pure utility for a long time, whereas Matthis/Vyland are considerably worse as pure utility units and aren't worth training as "main team" units.

[Colonel M]

You're likely using 5-6 Master Seal units tops IIRC, since many of them come late. Or was it 4? >_>;

(I can't remember).

EDIT: I am incompetent, lulz.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

You get the one in Chapter 10, two in Chapter 12, one in chapters 16-18, two in Chapter 19, one in Chapter 21, and two in Chapter 23.

The team I posted (which seems pretty standard) will have everyone promoted by Chapter 17. Even if you use two unpromoted units in place of Sedgar/Wolf and use an extra unit, you'll only have to wait an extra two chapters. That being said, I think 5-6 master seal units seems reasonable unless you have a relatively large team.

[_____]

The point is that a small team has room to field Jeorge as pure utility for a long time, whereas Matthis/Vyland are considerably worse as pure utility units and aren't worth training as "main team" units.

Except that we're assuming they are being used as "main team" units for the sake of the comparison. Jeorge can be dropped after his period of awesome if it benefits him, which I'm fairly certain it does, but Matthis and Vyland will be used as part of the main team when comparing them, and roflstomp Jeorge after Chapters 9 and 10.

[Dat Nick]

2 atk/2 AS is NOT a roflstomp. Hell Matthis actually loses ATK due to Bow Rank and access to Silver.

Edited November 19, 2009 by laws b122

[Rodykitty]

2 atk/2 AS is NOT a roflstomp. Hell Matthis actually loses ATK due to Bow Rank and access to Silver.

So putting Jeorge between them is possible?

[_____]

2 atk/2 AS is NOT a roflstomp.

When it actually means doubling shit, it is.

Also, better durability, though it's admittedly less useful than if they were 1-range classes.

Hell Matthis actually loses ATK due to Bow Rank and access to Silver.

Doubling > Silver.

Jeorge does not have the AS to double a majority of the enemies in Chapter 12 until he's 20/6. That's pathetic. Also, Matthis has enough AS to double Cavs until Chapter 16 at base, and only needs to be level 3 (or 5 for the higher level ones, but it's also been 5 chapters, so...) to double them. Jeorge needs to be 9 for the common ones, and 11 for the higher end ones.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Ninji

[Rodykitty]

I think it's safe to say that their positions will be left like this officially, with the only plausible change being whether Vyland or Matthis is higher than each other.

[_____]

I haven't even started with Ymir, though...