H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

I'll drop Ymir too. I am tired of this crap.

[_____]

Well, now Lower Mid seems too small.

[Rodykitty]

I've been wanting to change the tier names for awhile anyway.

How does this look?

Top:

- Zagaro

- Wolf

Upper Mid:

- Merric

- Barst

- Cord

- Draug

- Abel

- Cain

- Caeda

- Ogma

- Hardin

- Chainey

Mid:

- Wendell

- Daros

- Bord

- Castor

- Horace

- Athena

- Ceaser

- Roger

- Marth

- Navarre

- Minerva

- Jeigan

- Rena

- Jake

Low Mid:

- Beck

- Catria

- Julian

- Tiki

- Nagi

- Gotoh

- Dolph

- Palla

- Wrys

- Gordon

[Don Draper]

Vyland and Matthis really aren't bad to the point where they are low. I don't see what say...Gordon has over him. Are we putting that much weight on his Chapter 1 performance?

Gordon 20/1 Curate-->Sniper: 34 HP, 15 Atk (+1) (Killer Bow), 14 AS, 9 Def

Vyland 20/1 Curate-->Sniper: 34 HP, 15 Atk (+1) (Killer Bow), 18 AS, 7 Def

Growthwise, Vyland wins Str by 5%, Spd by 25% and Gordon wins Def by 20%. I'd say Vyland's speed win gives him the edge over Gordon. Gordon may have a level lead over Vyland for a bit, but thats never going to make up for the major AS loss.

[Rodykitty]

I can probably put the two, Jeorge into Lower Mid and keep Low the way it is, then combine that with the new tier names.

[Don Draper]

I agree with that. Seems weird to have a tier list without a high tier though.

[Rodykitty]

There's a possibility of a tier gap between Draug and Abel, methinks, especially with all of the improvements for Class Set B that have been discovered.

[Colonel M]

I still think we should at least explore this throughout. Perhaps... *cough*elsewhere*cough* I'll see about a direct comparison between Abel and Draug.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

imo there's no need or reason to change High tier to upper mid. At all.

[Rodykitty]

I did it because High Tier means something different in other games, which I felt wasn't accurate here. If most people disagree though, I'll change it back.

[CrashGordon94]

Daros has been upper mid forever and Bord has been there for a while too

also, AK>General

That's strange, I thought they were lower mid!

Next time if you have questions like that, look at the ranking guide I wrote up. It has useful info explaining most of the stuff.

Well, okay, I might try that.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

The tiers look bad now. Lack of high and lower mid is to big. And what qualifies for high tier in other games should not have any relevance on what qualifies for high tier here.

Just look at how useful general's are considered here and how movement is considered overrated. Weapon ranks alone on top of the new avoid formula force the tier player to play completely differently from what they would in prior fe games.

It undermines all the arguments that were made before the change. Like for example can you honestly see a tier gap of only two between the former high tiers and someone like dolph?

Edited November 20, 2009 by Lancelot

[Rodykitty]

Just because there's a lack of high doesn't mean there should be a High Tier just for the sake of having a High Tier. A few characters in Upper Mid need to be babied just to perform acceptably.

This doesn't mean a High tier can't exist, but that we haven't figured out IF it should exist and it'll mean a tier split.

It undermines all the arguments that were made before the change. Like for example can you honestly see a tier gap of only two between the former high tiers and someone like dolph?

Actually, yes. Mid & Low Mid make a lot more sense now. A tier gap of two is fine considering Dolph is salvageable enough. Edited November 20, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Dat Nick]

Lots of high tiers in FE7 need babying as well, Hector, Lowen, Eliwood [but I still don't think he's high tier] Just because you need to be "babied" doesn't automatically maen you're not High tier because pretty much everybody who isn't utility in this game is going to be needing it, even Z & W need to be fed kills.

[Rodykitty]

I just think a lot of characters suck too much at first even in the higher tiers. If we're punishing characters like Dolph for needing to be leveled up, then characters like Abel & Kain need to be punished for it too (which is why I called for a tier gap earlier because Barts is good off the bat).

[Dat Nick]

But Abel and Cain DON'T need that much babying [Well okay Cain probably need sto go out of his way to fix his lance rank] I'd hardly say they need any more effort than Lowen, so Lowen is Up Mid tier by this same logic.

And you just said it yourself, Barst is good, period, and after promotion, he remains good as a consistent doubler. A brief period of not doubling shouldn't knock him down a tier.

Edited November 20, 2009 by laws b122

[Colonel M]

So... let' assume that it's possible to have a High Tier list. So I'd say it's likely between Cord / Barst and Draug?

[Interceptor]

The purpose of tier breaks is generally to delineate jumps in performance, so complaints about labels and/or tier grouping size don't make any sense to me. The only reason that Barst should break out of Upper Mid is if he's considerably better than the other people in the same grouping, no?

[Don Draper]

I would prefer traditional names for tiers too.

On another note, I completely forgot about Merric. What does he have over Cord/Barst again? Taking Fighter-->Hero Barst:

15/1 Barst: 36 HP, 30 Atk (Silver Axe), 18 AS, 12 Def

20/1 Merric: 37 HP, 15 Atk (Blizzard), 16 AS, 7 Def

Chapter 11:

Cavs: Barst ORKOs, and Merric 2RKOs. They 3RKO Barst and 2RKO Merric (unless they have Javelins, then he's left with 1 HP)

Mercs: Barst ORKOS and Merric 3RKOs. They 3RKO Barst and 3RKO Merric (leaving him with 1 HP again, if he gets screwed even slightly he's dead).

Pegs: Barst 2RKOs and Merric 4RKOs. They 4RKO Barst and 3RKO Merric

Sniper: Barst 2RKOs and Merric 4RKOs. They 3RKO Barst and 2RKO Merric

Horseman: Barst 2RKOs and Merric 3RKOs. They 4RKO Barst and 3RKO Merric

So Merric is performing pretty poorly in relation to Barst. This situation doesn't really get any better. Chapter 16, I'll even assume Merric has Bolganone (which is a 13 use weapon, which means only 6.5 rounds of combat of use):

15/6 Barst: 39 HP, 31 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS, 13 Def

20/6 Merric: 40 HP, 22 Atk (+2) (Bolganone), 17 AS (-1 AS), 7 Def

Horsemen: Barst ORKOs all (OHKOs with Poleaxe), and Merric 2RKOs. They 5RKO Barst and 3RKO Merric

Wyvern: Barst ORKOS the 11 Def Lance variety and 2RKOS the others, while Meric 3RKOs. They 3RKO Barst and 2RKO Merric (although the Poleaxe one 3RKOs him)

Hero: Barst 2RKOS unless the Hero has 41 HP, while Merric 2RKOs. He 3RKOs Barst and 2RKO Merric (unless he goes for a res hit)

Cavs: Both ORKO all. They generally 3-4RKO Barst and generally 2RKO Merric

Paladin: Barst ORKOs while Merric 3RKOs. He 3RKOs Barst and 2RKOs Merric

General: Barst Hammertimes for a ORKO while Merric 2RKOs. He 3RKOs Barst and 2RKOs Merric

I don't know how much value we are putting on 2 range, but Barst is almost always taking 1-2 more hits in addition to being superior offensively. There's also Excalibur, but Wendell has probably gotten a lot of use for it already (not to mention Merric might be needing it in Chapter 7). I really don't think 2 range outweighs being clearly worse offensively and defensively, and I think Barst>Merric.

[Rodykitty]

Hmm, I might remove tier names entirely. While most people feel the 2nd to top tier should still be high, my gut instinct tells me that this isn't right.

That, and it'll put more emphasis on what characters they should be around rather than what tier label they should be in.

Barts vs. Merric stuff

Sounds reasonable enough for me. I'll wait until others agree.

[Dat Nick]

Chapter 11:

Cavs: Barst ORKOs, and Merric 2RKOs. They 3RKO Barst and 2RKO Merric (unless they have Javelins, then he's left with 1 HP)

Mercs: Barst ORKOS and Merric 3RKOs. They 3RKO Barst and 3RKO Merric (leaving him with 1 HP again, if he gets screwed even slightly he's dead).

Pegs: Barst 2RKOs and Merric 4RKOs. They 4RKO Barst and 3RKO Merric

Sniper: Barst 2RKOs and Merric 4RKOs. They 3RKO Barst and 2RKO Merric

Horseman: Barst 2RKOs and Merric 3RKOs. They 4RKO Barst and 3RKO Merric

So Merric is performing pretty poorly in relation to Barst. This situation doesn't really get any better. Chapter 16, I'll even assume Merric has Bolganone (which is a 13 use weapon, which means only 6.5 rounds of combat of use):

Several things this doesn't take into account...

15/1 Barst: 36 HP, 24 Atk (Hand Axe), 18 AS, 12 Def

20/1 Merric: 37 HP, 15 Atk (Blizzard), 16 AS, 7 Def

Now let's run the figures again.

Cav: Barst 2RKOs, same as Merric

Merc: Barst 2RKOs but has notably poor hit due to WTD and low handaxe accuracy

Pegs: Merric can instablick with Excalibur, Barst has no such option and cannot double them

Snipers and Horsemen, Barst does have a slght edge due to Melee, so I'll concede that point

Chapter 16, I'll even assume Merric has Bolganone (which is a 13 use weapon, which means only 6.5 rounds of combat of use):

By C16 it's buyable anyway, so use per combat is almost a non-issue.

15/6 Barst: 39 HP, 31 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS, 13 Def

20/6 Merric: 40 HP, 22 Atk (+2) (Bolganone), 17 AS (-1 AS), 7 Def

Why are they at equal levels? I've argued several times that Sages level faster than other units. So Merric should be at a higher level, say, 8 or 10. I'll go with 9.

15/6 Barst: 39 HP, 25 Atk (Hand Axe), 20 AS, 13 Def

20/9 Merric: 42 HP, 23 Atk (+2) (Bolganone), 19 AS (-1 AS), 7 Def

Merric can't double the paladins but he can still just switch to a lighter tome, and instant blicking the wyverns at 2 range is still something Barst can't do.

Anyway, Barst's weaker 2 range comes into play further on this chapter. He can't ORKO the cavs with hand that Merric cleanly kills.

I admit it is something of a minor win, but what bothers me more is you didn't at all take into account Merric's A Staff rank.

Edited November 20, 2009 by laws b122

[Don Draper]

Since when have we cared about any staff levels higher then C, which a million other units have access too?

So Barst and Merric are about equal offensively at two range (Merric might eventually edge out a win). Barst still has far superior 1-range and much better durability. Its a clear win for Barst, and I don't recall Sages getting more experience in the first place. I would run a quick test to make sure.

I don't see how 2 range makes a huge difference when Merric is getting 2RKO'd by everything anyways. It would only make a difference on player phase, and Barst has the Poleaxe at his disposal for the odd OHKO. There are a lot of enemies with 2 range too, so Merric doesn't even have an advantage against them.

I'm not even getting into Barst's +30 avoid over Merric (+20 from Ogma/Cord, +10 from WTA).

Edited November 20, 2009 by IOS

[Interceptor]

I don't know how much value we are putting on 2 range, but Barst is almost always taking 1-2 more hits in addition to being superior offensively. There's also Excalibur, but Wendell has probably gotten a lot of use for it already (not to mention Merric might be needing it in Chapter 7). I really don't think 2 range outweighs being clearly worse offensively and defensively, and I think Barst>Merric.

So, what happened to chapters prior to 11? Specifically the ones where Barst's doubling is not guaranteed, his accuracy is balls, he's D-rank and 50+ attacks from Silver, etc. It seems like kind of an incomplete comparison to me if you ignore Barst's earlygame.

Hmm, I might remove tier names entirely. While most people feel the 2nd to top tier should still be high, my gut instinct tells me that this isn't right.

I maintain that you could call it Skittles Tier and it wouldn't make a jot of difference as long as the membership was accurate.

[Dat Nick]

Since when have we cared about any staff levels higher then C, which a million other units have access too?

So? Merric can heal, Barst can't. And Merric can actually heal and do combat, which a million other units CAN'T do. Adv, Merric."

Barst still has far superior 1-range and much better durability

See, that's just it, better durability. Any time Barst has to attack at 1 range, he will often have to take a counter unless you use a 6k forge. He never takes more than one shot Merric can, sometimes they break even. That isn't "much better" durability, not when Merric has the superior chip damage.

and I don't recall Sages getting more experience in the first place. I would run a quick test to make sure.

How don't they? Barst gets combat EXP, Merric gets Combat EXP and Staff EXP. Merric levels faster than Barst.

[Colonel M]

The purpose of tier breaks is generally to delineate jumps in performance, so complaints about labels and/or tier grouping size don't make any sense to me. The only reason that Barst should break out of Upper Mid is if he's considerably better than the other people in the same grouping, no?

Yes, exactly my point.

My question is if Cord / Barst actually have a tier gap over Draug... and I'm actually doubting Cord slightly.