H5 Tier list topic

[Don Draper]

So, what happened to chapters prior to 11? Specifically the ones where Barst's doubling is not guaranteed, his accuracy is balls, he's D-rank and 50+ attacks from Silver, etc. It seems like kind of an incomplete comparison to me if you ignore Barst's earlygame.

I didn't get into this because its generally accepted that Barst is one of, if not your best earlygame unit. I figured it was redundant to bring this up again (yes he has these problems, yet he's still performing better then all other units besides perhaps Ogma and Jagen)

So? Merric can heal, Barst can't. And Merric can actually heal and do combat, which a million other units CAN'T do. Adv, Merric."

I don't really see how this matters. Is there ever a situation where being able to heal and do combat is an advantage? When everyone and their mom still 2RKOs you?

See, that's just it, better durability. Any time Barst has to attack at 1 range, he will often have to take a counter unless you use a 6k forge. He never takes more than one shot Merric can, sometimes they break even. That isn't "much better" durability, not when Merric has the superior chip damage.

Read my edited post: ``I don't see how 2 range makes a huge difference when Merric is getting 2RKO'd by everything anyways. It would only make a difference on player phase, and Barst has the Poleaxe at his disposal for the odd OHKO. There are a lot of enemies with 2 range too, so Merric doesn't even have an advantage against them.``

How don't they? Barst gets combat EXP, Merric gets Combat EXP and Staff EXP. Merric levels faster than Barst.

Conceded, but looking at your H5 playthrough, you still have Merric on par with all your other characters around Chapters 10 and 11. Logically, that would mean that they would promote around the same level, and Merric would be lagging behind even more both offensively and defensively.

Edited November 20, 2009 by IOS

[Dat Nick]

I don't really see how this matters. Is there ever a situation where being able to heal and do combat is an advantage? When everyone and their mom still 2RKOs you?

Everybody and their mom DOESN'T 2RKO Merric. Did you even look at your own numbers? You provided several things that were 3RKOing him, sometimes 4. And of course Merric completely godmodes C15 due to negating desert terrain+having lolres.

And yes, I do consider actually being able to do combat and heal just as well as our staff whores an advantage. Staff whoring saves units from Bottom tier, so staff utility is clearly worth something, thus Merric's staffing is an advantage.

Read my edited post: ``I don't see how 2 range makes a huge difference when Merric is getting 2RKO'd by everything anyways.

But Merric ISN'T getting 2RKOd by everything.

As you just proved.

Furthermore, you make it sound like averaging 1 more hit until death at best means Merric dies and Barst doesn't.

It would only make a difference on player phase, and Barst has the Poleaxe at his disposal for the odd OHKO.

yes. However, in C16, the chapter you provided, he does not.

There are a lot of enemies with 2 range too, so Merric doesn't even have an advantage against them.

With 2 range? Not a problem since Merric can melee them without a counter. With 1-2 range? No, there aren't really a lot of Javelins around, and any Javelins that do exist are generally cancelled out by the mages that Merric can just brush off whereas Barst takes a heavy hit.

Conceded, but looking at your H5 playthrough, you still have Merric on par with all your other characters around Chapters 10 and 11. Logically, that would mean that they would promote around the same level, and Merric would be lagging behind even more.

perhaps

[Don Draper]

When I said he was 2RKO'd everything, I was refering to Chapter 16, where he is 2RKO'd by everything but Horsemen (which Merric doesn't have a range advantage over anyways).

When all is said and done, I think you can agree that Barst slightly edges out over Merric. Merric might have a case against Cord though (Cord doesn't have a clear durability win). If not, we can keep debating, but I propose Barst>Merric>Cord.

Another interesting thing I found is that Barst with a Dragon shield is 4RKO'd by everything on the map in Chapter 16. If Barst gets a statbooster then Merric gets one, but I don't think that anything Merric can get would cause such a dramatic increase in performance.

EDIT: Barst has 32 Base Avoid at 15/6, and gets +20 from supports and +10 from WTA. Thats 62, and is facing anywhere from 41-49 displayed hit (34-49 real). This is before factoring in terrain.

Edited November 20, 2009 by IOS

[CATS]

Barst's earlygame is pretty significant. What Merric does as a Curate is far less valuable than Barst being a good fighter. You can take a large number of other units, reclass them to a healing class, and get the same results as Merric or better when it comes to staff use, while the same cannot be said of Barst's combat. If you take away Barst, you don't have a long line of equally good fighters available to take his place.

[Dat Nick]

I find Barst>Merric>Cord acceptable, as I argued Merric>Cord previously.

[Rodykitty]

Sure.

[Don Draper]

Out of interest, I feel like figuring out how much money the team actually has, so we can figure out how much we can afford to spend on forges (for 1~2 range weapons or effective weapons). I'm taking bullions into account as well

Chapter 1: 10000 Gold

Chapter 2: 5000 Gold (15000)

Chapter 3: 150000 Gold (30000)

Chapter 4: 5000 Gold (35000)

Chapter 5: 0 Gold (35000)

Chapter 6: 10000 Gold (45000)

Chapter 6x: 0 Gold (45000)

Chapter 7: 0 Gold (45000)

Chapter 8: 0 Gold (45000)

Chapter 9: 15000 Gold (60000)

Chapter 10: 0 Gold (60000)

Chapter 11: 0 Gold (60000)

Chapter 12: 20000 Gold (80000)

Chapter 12x: 0 Gold (80000)

Chapter 13: 0 Gold (80000)

Chapter 14: 10000 Gold (90000) *Silver Card this chapter*

Chapters 15-18: 0 Gold (90000)

Chapter 19: 30000 Gold (120000)

Chapters 20-22: 0 Gold (120000)

Chapter 23: 10000 Gold (130000)

It might just be me, but 130000 over the entire game doesn't seem like a whole lot (even with weapons and stat boosters being dirt cheap in this game).

[Rodykitty]

It's a lot without Forging taken into account, but with forging it becomes a very tight budget because one might be like me and blow most of it on putting +5 Mt on the Rapier or something.

[Don Draper]

I agree. Even if one was to just forge +4 Mt onto a Javelin, its $8250 or 6% of your total assets throughout the entire game. For +6 Mt, its about double that.

[Colonel M]

I think +3 is acceptable, but it also depends on the weapon being forged.

[CATS]

Indeed, I generally wouldn't assume forges for anything beyond effective weapons, and I'd be skeptical of assuming higher-end equipment in general until fairly late in the game.

[Rodykitty]

I wouldn't really bother forging a Javelin too much unless it's on a character with considerable strength since it would need +5 to match the Mt of Silver Bow (both Lances and Bows can get +1 or +2 Mt on weapon rank).

On Rapier, even just +1 Mt will let it match Mercurius in Mt against effective enemies so minimal investment should be fine.

Edited November 21, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Colonel M]

Indeed, I generally wouldn't assume forges for anything beyond effective weapons, and I'd be skeptical of assuming higher-end equipment in general until fairly late in the game.

I'd say Hand Axes / Javelins can likely assume a forge since they're useful weapons and they aren't expensive to begin with (cheap Hand Axes really).

I wouldn't really bother forging a Javelin too much unless it's on a character with considerable strength since it would need +5 to match the Mt of Silver Bow (both Lances and Bows can get +1 or +2 Mt on weapon rank).

I'd probably ride along with this statement since it would likely assume a low +Mt forge.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

If we're gonna take forging into account, I'd say it goes like this.

Priorities

-Rapier/Wing Spear (until Shiida's no longer needed/no longer needed as a pegasus)

-Slayer weapons

-Magic

-Killer Weapons

I'd also give priority to forges going to people doubling, unless they can OHKO with a slayer weapon.

Just my thoughts, I'm sure they're slightly wrong.

[Rodykitty]

-Magic

-Killer Weapons

Why?

I'd also give priority to forges going to people doubling, unless they can OHKO with a slayer weapon.

I would consider being able to finish off enemies in a single use better economically because it better preserves the uses of that that weapon you nearly bankrupted yourself with. Edited November 21, 2009 by FE3 Player

[grandjackal]

-Magic

-Killer Weapons

Why?

I'd also give priority to forges going to people doubling, unless they can OHKO with a slayer weapon.

I would consider being able to finish off enemies in a single use better economically because it better preserves the uses of that that weapon you nearly bankrupted yourself with.

-Well with magic it's only for those doubling, but it's mainly because magic is generally the most consistant damage, as resistance fluxuates far less than defense. Killer weapons because it's cheaper to forge 4 might to a killer weapon than 20 crit onto a silver weapon.

I should note that its not like those two are super high, like the slayer weapons.

-True, but not all things are killable via slayer weapons, such as heroes and archers, or it's that generals are so damn tough that I'd love to see anyone OHKO them even with a slayer weapon without bankrupting themselves in the process over a single weapon.

[Rodykitty]

-True, but not all things are killable via slayer weapons, such as heroes and archers, or it's that generals are so damn tough that I'd love to see anyone OHKO them even with a slayer weapon without bankrupting themselves in the process over a single weapon.

For one, Archers suck enough to warrant not needing forges, and Heroes are uncommon enough that they're getting ganged up on anyway.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Iron axes/fire tomes are also good to forge. A +10 might forge for either only costs a bit over 8 thousand initially. It's something that can really help out in the early game.

[Colonel M]

Iron axes/fire tomes are also good to forge. A +10 might forge for either only costs a bit over 8 thousand initially. It's something that can really help out in the early game.

This isn't Fire Emblem: McDonald's Franchise. We actually have a semi-tight budget.

[Rodykitty]

Still trying to find a half-used forged Iron Axe on eBay, but I keep getting auction sniped by FE9 players.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Still trying to find a half-used forged Iron Axe on eBay, but I keep getting auction sniped by FE9 players.

Fuck, they already bought all the forged Steel Axes?

Anyway, shouldn't beck and Jake be in the same tier?

Edited November 21, 2009 by Vergil

[Colonel M]

Still trying to find a half-used forged Iron Axe on eBay, but I keep getting auction sniped by FE9 players.

Fuck, they already bought all the forged Steel Axes?

Anyway, shouldn't beck and Jake be in the same tier?

BB proved long time ago that supports made Jake a tier difference between them. Dunno, maybe they shouldn't be though. =/

Edited November 21, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

no, why should they? Didn't we go over how big of a deal ammo is and how Jake can effectively use stonehoist whereas Beck can't?

[Rodykitty]

Chainey copies Mov boost from Boots.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Iron axes/fire tomes are also good to forge. A +10 might forge for either only costs a bit over 8 thousand initially. It's something that can really help out in the early game.

This isn't Fire Emblem: McDonald's Franchise. We actually have a semi-tight budget.

It only costs 4480 gold to turn a iron axe into a silver axe. That would be a 7 might forge. That's only 1280 gold more than 2 silvers that anyone can use upon switching into fighter route and since it's only 6 weight it won't hurt there AS on top of having the exact same hit as a silver. That means even guys who start without any axe ranks and shit strength can at least finish an enemy reliably at 2 rounding power. Like cord, ceasar, and roger.

The first silver axe doesn't show up until chapter 7 anyway. I don't see how this isn't highly useful for beginning axe fighters. The iron sword/lance forging costs thousands more...

Edited November 21, 2009 by Lancelot