H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

Iron axes/fire tomes are also good to forge. A +10 might forge for either only costs a bit over 8 thousand initially. It's something that can really help out in the early game.

This isn't Fire Emblem: McDonald's Franchise. We actually have a semi-tight budget.

It only costs 4480 gold to turn a iron axe into a silver axe. That would be a 7 might forge. That's only 1280 gold more than 2 silvers that anyone can use upon switching into fighter route and since it's only 6 weight it won't hurt there AS on top of having the exact same hit as a silver. That means even guys who start without any axe ranks and shit strength can at least finish an enemy reliably at 2 rounding power. Like cord, ceasar, and roger.

The first silver axe doesn't show up until chapter 7 anyway. I don't see how this isn't highly useful for beginning axe fighters. The iron sword/lance forging costs thousands more...

Speaking of just a slight bit more expensive than 2 axes, iron has 40 uses compared to a silver's 20, so it basically IS 2 silver axes.

[Colonel M]

Iron axes/fire tomes are also good to forge. A +10 might forge for either only costs a bit over 8 thousand initially. It's something that can really help out in the early game.

This isn't Fire Emblem: McDonald's Franchise. We actually have a semi-tight budget.

It only costs 4480 gold to turn a iron axe into a silver axe. That would be a 7 might forge. That's only 1280 gold more than 2 silvers that anyone can use upon switching into fighter route and since it's only 6 weight it won't hurt there AS on top of having the exact same hit as a silver. That means even guys who start without any axe ranks and shit strength can at least finish an enemy reliably at 2 rounding power. Like cord, ceasar, and roger.

The first silver axe doesn't show up until chapter 7 anyway. I don't see how this isn't highly useful for beginning axe fighters. The iron sword/lance forging costs thousands more...

They're fine with Steel. Also do the math: that's 1280 Gold that I could've used on something useful.

Speaking of just a slight bit more expensive than 2 axes, iron has 40 uses compared to a silver's 20, so it basically IS 2 silver axes.

2 Silver Axes + 1280.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Billy: Hunter - General

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Iron axes/fire tomes are also good to forge. A +10 might forge for either only costs a bit over 8 thousand initially. It's something that can really help out in the early game.

This isn't Fire Emblem: McDonald's Franchise. We actually have a semi-tight budget.

It only costs 4480 gold to turn a iron axe into a silver axe. That would be a 7 might forge. That's only 1280 gold more than 2 silvers that anyone can use upon switching into fighter route and since it's only 6 weight it won't hurt there AS on top of having the exact same hit as a silver. That means even guys who start without any axe ranks and shit strength can at least finish an enemy reliably at 2 rounding power. Like cord, ceasar, and roger.

The first silver axe doesn't show up until chapter 7 anyway. I don't see how this isn't highly useful for beginning axe fighters. The iron sword/lance forging costs thousands more...

They're fine with Steel. Also do the math: that's 1280 Gold that I could've used on something useful.

Speaking of just a slight bit more expensive than 2 axes, iron has 40 uses compared to a silver's 20, so it basically IS 2 silver axes.

2 Silver Axes + 1280.

It's a small price to pay and it get's them out of there period of suck immediately. Look at how people are willing to cough out 4,000 gold in por to turn an iron sword into a steel. It's only an extra 1280 gold that anyone could use right off the bat.

[Colonel M]

Iron axes/fire tomes are also good to forge. A +10 might forge for either only costs a bit over 8 thousand initially. It's something that can really help out in the early game.

This isn't Fire Emblem: McDonald's Franchise. We actually have a semi-tight budget.

It only costs 4480 gold to turn a iron axe into a silver axe. That would be a 7 might forge. That's only 1280 gold more than 2 silvers that anyone can use upon switching into fighter route and since it's only 6 weight it won't hurt there AS on top of having the exact same hit as a silver. That means even guys who start without any axe ranks and shit strength can at least finish an enemy reliably at 2 rounding power. Like cord, ceasar, and roger.

The first silver axe doesn't show up until chapter 7 anyway. I don't see how this isn't highly useful for beginning axe fighters. The iron sword/lance forging costs thousands more...

They're fine with Steel. Also do the math: that's 1280 Gold that I could've used on something useful.

Speaking of just a slight bit more expensive than 2 axes, iron has 40 uses compared to a silver's 20, so it basically IS 2 silver axes.

2 Silver Axes + 1280.

It's a small price to pay and it get's them out of there period of suck immediately. Look at how people are willing to cough out 4,000 gold in por to turn an iron sword into a steel. It's only an extra 1280 gold that anyone could use right off the bat.

Invest your Bullions into better merchandise.

Such as forging Rapier.

Or Hunter->General.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Iron axes/fire tomes are also good to forge. A +10 might forge for either only costs a bit over 8 thousand initially. It's something that can really help out in the early game.

This isn't Fire Emblem: McDonald's Franchise. We actually have a semi-tight budget.

It only costs 4480 gold to turn a iron axe into a silver axe. That would be a 7 might forge. That's only 1280 gold more than 2 silvers that anyone can use upon switching into fighter route and since it's only 6 weight it won't hurt there AS on top of having the exact same hit as a silver. That means even guys who start without any axe ranks and shit strength can at least finish an enemy reliably at 2 rounding power. Like cord, ceasar, and roger.

The first silver axe doesn't show up until chapter 7 anyway. I don't see how this isn't highly useful for beginning axe fighters. The iron sword/lance forging costs thousands more...

They're fine with Steel. Also do the math: that's 1280 Gold that I could've used on something useful.

Speaking of just a slight bit more expensive than 2 axes, iron has 40 uses compared to a silver's 20, so it basically IS 2 silver axes.

2 Silver Axes + 1280.

It's a small price to pay and it get's them out of there period of suck immediately. Look at how people are willing to cough out 4,000 gold in por to turn an iron sword into a steel. It's only an extra 1280 gold that anyone could use right off the bat.

Invest your Bullions into better merchandise.

Such as forging Rapier.

Or Hunter->General.

We have more than enough money in the beginning of the game to forge both. Sides the rapier only needs a +3 forge. And going without out a forge on the rapier on chapter 4 isn't that big a deal. We are usually weakening up the cavs with someone else like barst/ogma/jeigan/axe fighters so Marth doesn't need the full might. Then there is the hunters/handaxes/tomes to further help out in weakening them. I don't know about you but I have about 20K going into chapter 4. That's more than enough to last us a while on top of forging the iron axe and the rapier.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Lancelot

[grandjackal]

So, forging a steel up to silver might (in sword terms) is only 375 more expensive than 2 silvers, though in exchange we're missing 5 uses and 10 acc. Axes, only 300 more expensive.

So, who here wants Ogma packing silver power as soon as chapter 4?

[Don Draper]

I know I'm getting off topic with a topic I actually started (lol), but here are some 15/1 stats since we're assuming early promotion for the most part. I'll do it for Merric too, even though he's probably going to be able to promote at 20/1:

15/1 Fighter->Hero Barst: 36 HP, 16 Str, 20 Skl, 18 AS, 10 Lck, 12 Def

15/1 Curate->Sage Merric: 34 HP, 7 Mag, 10 Skl, 13 AS, 9 Lck, 6 Def (20/1 Curate->Sage Merric: 37 HP, 8 Mag, 13 Skl, 16 AS, 12 Lck, 7 Def)

15/1 Fighter->Hero Cord: 32 HP, 15 Str, 18 Skl, 19 AS, 10 Lck, 10 Def

15/1 Hunter->General Draug: 36 HP, 12 Str, 9 Skl, 16 AS, 5 Lck, 16 Def

15/1 Cav->Sniper Abel: 35 HP, 14 Str, 20 Skl, 17 AS, 6 Lck, 10 Def

15/1 Cav->Sniper Cain: 37 HP, 14 Str, 18 Skl, 16 AS, 9 Lck, 10 Def

15/1 Mage->Sage Caeda: 26 HP, 8 Mag, 11 Skl, 20 AS, 19 Lck, 5 Def

15/1 Merc->Hero Ogma: 38 HP, 12 Str, 17 Skl, 17 AS, 7 Lck, 10 Def

15/1 Cav->Sniper Hardin: 36 HP, 14 Str, 18 Skl, 16 AS, 6 Lck, 10 Def

15/1 Armor->General Daros: 40 HP, 14 Str, 7 Skl, 5 AS, 8 Lck, 23 Def

15/1 Hunter->General Bord: 35 HP, 16 Str, 12 Skl, 7 AS, 6 Lck, 19 Def

15/1 Hunter->General Castor: 36 HP, 14 Str, 7 Skl, 9 AS, 5 Lck, 18 Def

15/1 Myrm->Swordmaster Athena: 35 HP, 12 Str, 16 Skl, 18 AS, 7 Lck, 10 Def

15/1 Myrm->Swordmaster Navarre: 36 HP, 11 Str, 16 Skl, 19 AS, 7 Lck, 9 Def

15/1 Curate->Sniper Machis: 36 HP, 9 Str, 11 Skl, 13 AS, 4 Lck, 8 Def (20/1 Curate->Sniper Machis: 40 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skl, 15 AS, 5 Lck, 9 Def)

15/1 Cav->Sniper Vyland: 34 HP, 11 Str, 13 Skl, 15 AS, 6 Lck, 9 Def

15/1 Myrm->Swordmaster Gordon: 34 HP, 8 Str, 17 Skl, 17 AS, 10 Lck, 10 Def

15 Julian: 27 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skl, 18 AS, 17 Lck, 8 Def

15 Marth: 29 HP, 12 Str, 9 Skl, 14 AS, 17 Lck, 10 Def

Reason I put Julian there is to compare him to Navarre. Is a tier gap between the two really warranted? Especially with Julian's thieving and not needing a Master Seal? I was trying out other combinations for Navarre, but they all make his offence fail. Something to think about.

Of all the characters, I really only see Merric not benefiting from an early promotion.

For Caeser/Roger, I'll see how they do at 10/1 compared to these guys, as they come a bit later:

10/1 Fighter->Hero Roger: 30 HP, 11 Str, 12 Skl, 18 AS, 6 Lck, 9 Def

10/1 Fighter->Hero Caeser: 34 HP, 11 Str, 12 Skl, 17 AS, 7 Lck, 10 Def

Edited November 21, 2009 by IOS

[grandjackal]

So I decided to look into supports. People kept saying that with a team like Ogma Cord Barst Bord, that team could have 40 avoid, Marth able to replace Bord. I figured even 40 avoid is big in this game where the WTA could possibly reduce enemy hit by a possible 25 (swords>axes in that sense). People wondered what the support cap was, like how much of what an you get? Figured I would look further into this.

So I plugged in the game, turned on easy mode cause the more chapters gets you more support faster. Marth's supporters should have gotten Cs by chapter 4 (Cain, Frey, Abel, Jeigen), thus Marth should have had 20+ avoid. Here's what I discovered.

-Marth doesn't actually recieve supports.

-Marth's "support leadership" is a hoax.

-You're only allowed to support 1 person.

So yeah, supports in this game are not only bad, they're utterly pointless. Like, this is worse than we actually thought. So yeah, say goodbye to any notion that you can pull off any relevent avoid without high speed, luck, and said support. I mean relevent too, not reliable, relevent.

EDIT: In fact, get this. The only thing that happened was that Abel received a support bonus from Cain, yet Cain did not receive it back, despite the fact Cain should have a support built with Abel by now. However, neither gain any such bonus from Marth, nor does Marth get any bonus from them, despite the fact that both should have a support by now.

This basically would mean that the support list on serenes is weird, because Marth meets with Abel earlier, and yet only Abel only gets any sort of benefit from Cain. Basically it's bond rules, except you can be in support range rather than bond (as in 3 spaces away, and not right next to eachother).

Edited November 21, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Rodykitty]

I will also just say that if Vyland manages to climb up from his poor start, he's essentially Hardin with -3 Str and +1 AS. Also something to think about.

I'm more willing to buy into SK!Vyland over Cleric->Sniper, even if it drags down the team to get him to a usable level.

[grandjackal]

I will also just say that if Vyland manages to climb up from his poor start, he's essentially Hardin with -3 Str and +1 AS. Also something to think about.

I'm more willing to buy into SK!Vyland over Cleric->Sniper, even if it drags down the team to get him to a usable level.

http://www.feplanet.net/games-11-characters-averages/8

If Hardin is slower than this, both have problems.

http://www.feplanet.net/games-11-characters-averages/22

Oh wait, Hardin can actually double common threats eventually without needing to promote. At the levels posted by IOS no less. With more Strength. Along with durability.

Seriously, where did you get your numbers?

[Don Draper]

I posted a Daros>Ogma argument on fegenesis. I'll repost it here if anyone wants to see it, but isn't a member of fegenesis.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I don't trust feplanet's averages stat calculator. I've noticed there wrong on quite a few characters.

[Don Draper]

My bad, Vyland actually has 15 AS at 15/1, not 17 AS.

Ah, I accidentally added the promo gains to 15/0 Cav Vyland, not 15/0 Archer Vyland. Nevermind, Vyland is still bad.

All my other numbers should be correct though

Edited November 21, 2009 by IOS

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I posted a Daros>Ogma argument on fegenesis. I'll repost it here if anyone wants to see it, but isn't a member of fegenesis.

Ogma can go armor knight to you know. And even if he doesn't it won't matter since he will still crush darros in hp/as. Which matter more initially since ogma won't be getting doubled for some time whereas darros will be getting doubled forever.

[Don Draper]

1) Read the argument

2) Ogma is worse then Daros at being an Armor Knight, due to lower defence

Edited November 21, 2009 by IOS

[Dat Nick]

Reason I put Julian there is to compare him to Navarre. Is a tier gap between the two really warranted? Especially with Julian's thieving and not needing a Master Seal? I was trying out other combinations for Navarre, but they all make his offence fail. Something to think about.

I thought Cav/Paladin Cav/Draco was assumed for Navarre?

[Don Draper]

His AS is just too bad to be able to double anything. 15/1 Cav->Draco Navarre has 11 AS. Thats the same as his base as a Myrm.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

1) Read the argument

2) Ogma is much worse then Daros at being an Armor Knight, due to lower Strength and Defence

Chapter 4

Level 10 merc-knight ogma

29 HP | 10 STR | 7 SKL | 4 SPD | 13 DEF

Level 4 pirate-knight darros

23 HP | 8 STR | 1 SKL | 1 SPD | 12 DEF

Yea... one of these 2 is actually worth using as a tank initially and the other is as bad as draug was the prior two chapters. You decide.

Darros has a 70% hp growth with a 60% def. 130% total defense growth. 35% str growth.

Ogma has 90% hp with 45% def. 135% total defense growth. 35% str growth.

Yep darros has some real leads right there growth wise.

[Don Draper]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Level 10 Ogma at Chapter 4? While Daros is Level 4? Are you fucking kidding me?

I think we have a new addition to the banned users list.

Not to mention, you can't just add HP growth to defense growth and call it total defense growth. Do you understand the mechanics of this game?

Edited November 21, 2009 by IOS

[Dat Nick]

Level 10 merc-knight ogma

I spy quite an unjustified level lead.

edit: damnit

Edited November 21, 2009 by laws b122

[grandjackal]

I want to clear up my mistake with the supports, it turns out I fucked up because I thought the WTA or D bonus was 10, not 5.

Seems the site has it right. Cap is 3 people, simple as that.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Level 10 merc-knight ogma

I spy quite an unjustified level lead.

edit: damnit

Ok who's killing the bosses then? Darros? Or is the online shop suddenly allowed for the purpose of preventing ogma's level lead? HOW ABOUT WE CLOCK ABUSE FOR CRITS!

And I meant to say total durability growth.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Lancelot

[Dat Nick]

Ogma is necessary to weaken bosses. He is not at all needed to kill them. So no, he doesn't have a monopoly on boss kills.

[Don Draper]

Barst and Navarre can both kill the Chapter 3 boss. Ogma might be able to kill the Chapter 2 boss. Thats it.

[Rodykitty]

Even with killing bosses Level 10 is unreasonable.

*adds "Level 10 Oguma by Chapter 4" to the banned suggestions list*