Dat Nick Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Barst and Navarre can both kill the Chapter 3 boss. Nabarl needs to proc a str or a speed and Barst needs two points of speed, so Ogma is much more foolproof. Of course, do remember that this is just for WEAKENING the boss. Absolutely no reason you can't have any unit of your choice finish the boss off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Ogma is necessary to weaken bosses. He is not at all needed to kill them. So no, he doesn't have a monopoly on boss kills. It takes 20 turn on average for ogma to score a crit on chapter 2's boss. Chapter 3's requires a min of 5 turns. On top of this ogma is the most accurate on top of doing some of the best damage to the bosses. The only person who can kill these things reliably is like barst. And that's after ogma weakened them up. Not to mention barst can miss which is quite fatal with chapter 3's boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) That was the most amazing set of rocket shoes that I've ever seen. Ogma has a one-level and one-turn lead over Darros, and then magic happened. Edited November 21, 2009 by Interceptor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Durability growth doesn't work like that either. 15/1 Daros has 40 HP and 23 Def. 15/1 Ogma has 44 HP and 20 Def. Both get doubled by pretty much everything, so... Anything less then 23 Attack can't harm Daros. 23 Attack 8RKO's Ogma 24 Attack: 20RKO's Daros and 6RKO's Ogma 25 Attack: 10RKO's Daros and 5RKO's Ogma 26 Attack: 7RKO's Daros and 4RKO's Ogma 27 Attack: 5RKO's Daros and 4RKO's Ogma 28 Attack: 4RKO's Daros and 3RKO's Ogma 29 Attack: 4RKO's Daros and 3RKO's Ogma You see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Even if we didn't give ogma either boss kill he'd still be level 8-9. He starts at level 4. Considering that he is among the best units initially for both chapter 2 and 3 he is likely to gain a level from fighting both sets of enemies just like darros. ADD ON 250 experience from the bosses then. At least level 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Durability growth doesn't work like that either. 15/1 Daros has 40 HP and 23 Def. 15/1 Ogma has 44 HP and 20 Def. Both get doubled by pretty much everything, so... Anything less then 23 Attack can't harm Daros. 23 Attack 8RKO's Ogma 24 Attack: 20RKO's Daros and 6RKO's Ogma 25 Attack: 10RKO's Daros and 5RKO's Ogma 26 Attack: 7RKO's Daros and 4RKO's Ogma 27 Attack: 5RKO's Daros and 4RKO's Ogma 28 Attack: 4RKO's Daros and 3RKO's Ogma 29 Attack: 4RKO's Daros and 3RKO's Ogma You see? How the **** are they magically the same level? Edit: I'm on a laptop so it is gonna take me forever to respond. My comp broke down a few days ago. Edited November 21, 2009 by Lancelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Add on 250 experience from bosses? WTF? Each boss doesn't give 125 experience! And for the last time, he doesn't get dibs on the bosses. He can weaken them, but he doesn't get automatic dibs on killing them. You're being very ignorant, and exaggerating Ogma's level/sandbagging Daros's isn't helping your cause. Edited November 21, 2009 by IOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Even if Oguma kills the bosses, he's not going to be level 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Add on 250 experience from bosses? WTF? Each boss doesn't give 125 experience! And for the last time, he doesn't get dibs on the bosses. He can weaken them, but he doesn't get automatic dibs on killing them. You're being very ignorant, and exaggerating Ogma's level/sandbagging Daros's isn't helping your cause. If it takes 20 rounds to land a crit don't you think YOU WOULD GAIN EXPERIENCE IN THAT TIME?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Even if Oguma kills the bosses, he's not going to be level 10. You get like 80 experience a kill for bosses. How the heck he isn't reaching 10 counting the massive amount of experience he gained trying to land a crit in your eyes is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 If it takes 20 rounds to land a crit don't you think YOU WOULD GAIN EXPERIENCE IN THAT TIME?! The chance of it taking 20 attempts to crit a 0 LCK boss with Ogma is something like 0.24%. Be reasonable, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Oh my god! Killing the boss with somebody besides Ogma! This is an efficient playthrough, and Ogma was Level 5 at the end of Chapter 2. You'll really have to do better then that. Actually, why don't I just prove my point right here. Here's ThunderMan's playthrough, who's probably among the best FE players I've ever seen. He has Ogma at Level 5 and Daros at Level 3 (with 90 experience, so only one hit away from Level 4) at the very beginning of Chapter 4. So assuming Level 6 Ogma and Level 4 Daros really isn't unreasonable at all (in fact, I was being lenient with Ogma's level): Edited November 21, 2009 by IOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Oh my god! Killing the boss with somebody besides Ogma! This is an efficient playthrough, and Ogma was Level 5 at the end of Chapter 2. You'll really have to do better then that. Actually, why don't I just prove my point right here. Here's ThunderMan's playthrough, who's probably among the best FE players I've ever seen. He has Ogma at Level 5 and Daros at Level 3 (with 90 experience, so only one hit away from Level 4) at the very beginning of Chapter 4. So assuming Level 6 Ogma and Level 4 Daros really isn't unreasonable at all (in fact, I was being lenient with Ogma's level): WOW HE MANAGED TO LAND A HIT WITH BARST AT 37 DISPLAYED! Which would be like 30% true? HOW RELIABLE! OMG!THEN HE FOLLOWED IT UP WITH A 5% CHANCE TO PROC A CRIT! WE CAN TOTALLY RELY ON THIS EVERY SINGLE PLAYTHROUGH! There totally wasn't a chance of MASSIVE FAILURE THERE! Edited November 21, 2009 by Lancelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Sarcasm really needs a light touch, Lancelot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) You're grasping at straws, and its pretty sad. You're assuming that taking a few extra turns to kill a boss is somehow going to land Ogma 3 other levels which is absolutely ridiculous. Come back when you've played this game. For any intelligent comments about Ogma vs. Darros, respond on fegenesis. And for the love of god, please never join that forum Lancelot. Edited November 21, 2009 by IOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Sarcasm really needs a light touch, Lancelot. I don't care what he posted above was personal experience. IT was the very definition of personal experience. Not to mention if barst missed he would be dead come enemy phase likely. And ogma was likely to die to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 You're grasping at straws, and its pretty sad. You're assuming that taking a few extra turns to kill a boss is somehow going to land Ogma 3 other levels which is absolutely ridiculous. Come back when you've played this game. For any intelligent comments about Ogma vs. Darros, respond on fegenesis. And for the love of god, please never join that forum Lancelot. So when you get owned you say my arguements meaningless and say I fail at the game in order to save face? Why don't you learn to play this game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Well, IOS is right, and you're incoherent, so unfortunately that means you didn't win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Adding Lancelot to the Banned Users list as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Well, IOS is right, and you're incoherent, so unfortunately that means you didn't win. No he isn't. He relied on personal experience and a 30% chance to proc a hit on top of a 5% chance to proc a crit to prove my arguements were false. If that is how you win arguements on this tier list then I might as well say ogma procs an all stat up aside from mag/res every level up and that growths are meaningless. Personal experience obviously means everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Right. Anyways, I realized that the cap might not be 3 people for supports. I checked the list again, and it seems there are a couple people who have more than 3 in their list. Cain's involves Est, so fuck him. Abel has Paula and Katua, but there is another group. Midia's. Hers stands out because the entire group supports eachother, and could feel effects as soon as chapter 15 in the form of 20 avoid suddenly falling on their lap. Chapter 20, they all should have 40. Yet, Midia especially stands out because she is the only one in the game with 5 possible supports, which means a possible 50 avoid for her. Just to give you a hint on how big that is, that alone could reduce brave weapons to the 40s, the point where the RNG is actually working for you rather than against. However, I am very unwilling to test this even on easy mode, because of the following reasons. -Fuck Midia's group -Astram is the weak link because he's only got 2 supports, which might not quite save his ass as well as the 40 for everybody else. -I have to play through the game till chapter 20 to see if this would actually work. I just played through the game, I don't feel the mood. -Fuck Midia's group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 You heard Grandjackal. Most of Midia's group needs to be bottom tier NAO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Fine ogma's level 6 at chapter 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) I'll give Lancelot another chance, haha. Anyways, I'll repost my argument from fegenesis. It was assuming that Ogma was going Merc->Hero, but I'll switch to Armor-General if anybody really wants (And I know that Daros makes a better Armor Knight) So it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that Ogma wins Chapters 2 and 3. Daros gets 1~2 range which is cool, but Ogma is one of your best units offensively. I concede this. Now lets take a gander at Chapter 4. I'll assume two levels for Ogma, and just one for Daros. Ogma 6/0: 24 HP, 15 Atk (+1) (Steel Sword), 13 AS, 6 Def Daros 4/0: 22 HP, 14 Atk (Iron Lance), 1 AS, 12 Def Now you may think that Ogma has the advantage, but look again. Here's how they both fare against the enemies in this level: Thieves: Ogma 2RKOs both, and Daros only 2RKOs the Level 1. Ogma is 3RKOd, while Daros is either 6 or 11RKO'd Fighter: Ogma 3RKOs and Daros 4RKOs. Both are 2RKO'd (although Ogma does have an avoid advantage) Hunter: Both 3RKO. Ogma is 3RKO'd and Daros is either 4RKO'd or 6RKO'd Archer: Ogma 2RKOs while Daros 4RKO's. Both are 2RKO'd Armor: Ogma 6RKOs while Daros 11RKO's. Ogma is 2RKO'd while Daros is 4RKO'd Horseman: Ogma 4RKOs while Daros 5RKOs. Ogma is 3RKO'd while Daros is 4RKO'd or 6RKO'd Cav (Iron Sword): Ogma 2RKOs while Daros 5RKOs. Ogma is 2RKO'd while Daros is 2-3RKO'd Cav (Iron Lance): Ogma 3RKOs while Daros 5RKOs. Ogma is 2RKO'd while Daros is 2-3RKO'd So Daros isn't outputting the greatest offence at the moment, but he's usually surviving at least another hit compared to Ogma. Ogma is still probably winning, but again this lead diminishes quickly Chapter 8: Ogma 11/0: 28 HP, 17 Atk (+3), 14 AS, 7 Def Daros 11/0: 27 HP, 19 Atk (+1), 1 AS, 17 Def Cav 3: Ogma 2RKOs while Daros 3RKOs. They 2RKO Ogma and 7RKO Daros (thanks to WTA) Archers: Ogma 2RKOs while Daros 3RKOs. They 3RKO Ogma and 7RKO Daros Armors: Ogma can pull out an Armorslayer for an ORKO while Daros 4-5RKOs. They 2RKO Ogma and 6RKO Daros Horseman: Both 3RKO. Ogma is 3RKO'd while they either tink or 14RKO Daros So Daros is holding his own defensively. It takes an average 4-5 more hits to take Daros down, and he actually tinks the most common enemy on the map. Aside from the Armors, he usually only takes one more round to kill stuff too. Lets just look at promotion: Chapter 11: 15/1 Merc->Hero Ogma: 38 HP, 24 (+3) Atk, 17 AS, 10 Def 15/1 Armor->General Daros: 40 HP, 27 (+2) Atk, 5 AS, 23 Def Cavs: Both 2RKO. They 3RKO Ogma and 5RKO Daros Mercs: Ogma ORKOs and Daros 2RKOs. They 3RKO Ogma and 20RKO Daros Oh, and Level 5s tink Daros. Everything else is the same. Pegs: Both 2RKO. Ogma is 3RKO'd while they tink Daros Sniper: Daros 2RKO'd while Ogma 3RKO's. They 3RKO Ogma and 7RKO Daros Horseman: Both 2RKO. They 4RKO Ogma and *tink* So now they're about on par offensively, and Daros is just miles ahead defensively, its not even funny. This just gets worse and worse, and eventually Ridersbane become buyable so Daros can continue to be on par with Ogma offensively. Meanwhile, more and more enemies will begin to tink him. It keeps going uphill for Daros, yet Ogma can't keep up when he stops doubling. Daros might have a bit more of a slower start, but quickly catches up in a few chapters. I don't think anybody can argue Ogma>Daros after promotion, so I'll look more in depth at Chapter 4-10 if anybody argues. And I can see Lancelot saying that Daros won't have caught up in levels by Chapter 8, but 10/0 Daros really isn't a whole lot different. Edited November 21, 2009 by IOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I'm done. You win the arguement. Ogma is obviously losing since he is only level 6 now. The only way ogma could win is at level 9-10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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