H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Good reasons for me not to raise him up anymore. May even put him back in bottom.

[grandjackal]

His nice SPD growth as an archer sounds appealing at first but look at his attack in chapter 6: 10, with a 25% growth. The guy's basically Shiida with less SPD... and slightly (and probably insignificant) better durability and lacking Wing Spear. Too difficult to feed him kills and not worth the trouble (16.5 STR at 20/20 Sniper LOL).

Also, he's not getting Ridersbane unless you have him use Lances a bit before or after promotion. Going from D Lances and promoting to paladin results in a D in lances with 2/3 WEXP towards C rank. You'd need 15 more WEXP (you get 1 for each hit, 2 for each kill) to get C rank.

Well it's not out of imagination he will be used a bit the first chapter he's in, and he's rocking steel that chapter. He won't need much for a C. He's there to help against the pesky early fliers, the mages of Khadien are not hard to hurt, but he will have problems against most things, but that's why he's in low and not low mid. I'm just showing he DOES have use that doesn't plop him with fail units. Later, we change him back to pally for anti-brave defense, and he can do a bit with Ridersbane. He's not great, but he's better than "Ahhh, I have to be stuck as an archer to be any sort of useful!" Matthis. At least Vyland will be countering at some point.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Well it's not out of imagination he will be used a bit the first chapter he's in, and he's rocking steel that chapter. He won't need much for a C.

That lance is getting him doubled by everything in that chapter. Move him around enemy range early and you're just asking for Hardin's group to get raped (only Sedgar and Wolf can get attack EXP here without being too much trouble). Probably 1 kill at best, through favoritism.

He's there to help against the pesky early fliers, the mages of Khadien are not hard to hurt, but he will have problems against most things, but that's why he's in low and not low mid. I'm just showing he DOES have use that doesn't plop him with fail units. Later, we change him back to pally for anti-brave defense, and he can do a bit with Ridersbane. He's not great, but he's better than "Ahhh, I have to be stuck as an archer to be any sort of useful!" Matthis. At least Vyland will be countering at some point.

The only units that can do any good in terms of defense against Brave weapons are Generals. Vyland has crap DEF so even Paladin won't save him from getting 2 rounded (hell, you're better off making him a Draco if you want him to defend against anything). Granted, he is doing some damage against Pegasus (who isn't when they're using bows though?) but those enemies aren't common. He won't be useful enough for the first few chapters he's in and mages will soon be easy to kill by most of your units so good luck feeding him kills off those guys (and again, they're not common enemies).

Edited March 5, 2009 by Levin

[grandjackal]

That lance is getting him doubled by everything in that chapter. Move him around enemy range early and you're just asking for Hardin's group to get raped. Probably 1 kill at best, through favoritism.

The only units that can do any good in terms of defense against Brave weapons are Generals. Vyland has crap DEF so even Paladin won't save him from getting 2 rounded. Granted, he is doing some damage against Pegasus (who isn't when they're using bows though?) but those enemies aren't common. He won't be useful enough for the first few chapters he's in and mages will soon be easy to kill by most of your units so good luck feeding him kills off those guys (and again, they're not common enemies).

Well here we can blame my lack of any merciless mode experience. Did not know he was to be doubled by anything when he joins with that equipped. He and Roshea can change equipment? I mean, Roshea's got better skill and luck (with how little it matters, but with Hardin's group I think I'd want to put in as minimum a chance to fuck up a spossible), Vyland would like iron to not get assraped...

Also, am I under a false assumption that few units have THE speed to avoid getting quad-shot by the bravers? Because if I'm not...Vyland's speed would be a nice asset with his decent HP, good defense or no. I mean, it's not like it's incredibly bad compared to others not in god tier.

Besides, look at Matthis. What's he got going for him? He's pretty much stuck as an archer throughout, and barely has a better start. What makes him so special?

[Mekkah]

Back to Oguma for a bit, what also helps him as a Fighter is getting his axe rank up so he can use those more freely as a Hero. And of course, he is phenomenal in Ch2/Ch3, pretty much the only guy who has a shot at doubling Fighters/Pirates besides Shiida (and we all know how great Shiida is at that).

[grandjackal]

Back to Oguma for a bit, what also helps him as a Fighter is getting his axe rank up so he can use those more freely as a Hero. And of course, he is phenomenal in Ch2/Ch3, pretty much the only guy who has a shot at doubling Fighters/Pirates besides Shiida (and we all know how great Shiida is at that).

Precisely. That, and I'm sure there are a couple chapters he's not doubling enemies...We could change him to fighter till he gets like a D-D 1/2, then switch him back to mercenary so when he goes hero, he'll have a C in axes for hammer and pole-axe use.

He loses a bit of defense, but he gets a crapload of HP in return.

[Florete]

What makes Rickard so bad? He's basically a later Julian that's a bit worse statistically, isn't he? (And it's not like Julian is a powerhouse anyway) He can do all the thievery that Julian does, and if you lose Julian for any reason he's your thief. He obviously isn't as good as Julian but I can't see why there's a gap of almost two tiers separating them.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Well here we can blame my lack of any merciless mode experience. Did not know he was to be doubled by anything when he joins with that equipped. He and Roshea can change equipment? I mean, Roshea's got better skill and luck (with how little it matters, but with Hardin's group I think I'd want to put in as minimum a chance to fuck up a spossible), Vyland would like iron to not get assraped...

Also, am I under a false assumption that few units have THE speed to avoid getting quad-shot by the bravers? Because if I'm not...Vyland's speed would be a nice asset with his decent HP, good defense or no. I mean, it's not like it's incredibly bad compared to others not in god tier.

Besides, look at Matthis. What's he got going for him? He's pretty much stuck as an archer throughout, and barely has a better start. What makes him so special?

It's gonna stop him from getting doubled but it's not gonna change the fact that you're directing unwanted attention towards Hardin's group. Only difference is that he doesn't get doubled by the cavs and Archers, that's all, he's still getting pwned by the Pegasus and the reinforcements. Reason why Sedgar and Wolf can get some EXP is because that action is actually beneficial, you're keeping the archers distracted and only attacking Sedgar and Wolf (I'll elaborate more on this if necessary). You may be thinking "What about giving Vyland a Javelin?" That'll get him raped too.

I'm not sure about Matthis' position either but let's see...

Chapter 20 is when Brave weapons start appearing and the most dangerous bunch are 17 AS, 27 ATK paladins. 20/1 Archer > Draco Knight Matthis has 14 SPD, 38 HP and 14.5 DEF (keep in mind that him being higher leveled than this is a possibility). He's taking 12.5 damage per hit when equipped with a Lance and 11.5 when equipped with an Axe so he's getting 2 rounded at this level... 3 rounded if a few levels higher. In chapter 21, 18 AS Dracos come in and those will 1 round him. Draco Knight Vyland would have it better in this situation since he won't be Quad' but Matthis is doing better in the earlygame and isn't as difficult to train as Vyland thanks to better HP, STR and DEF growth. All that Vyland has on him is better offense in the lategame and doesn't get doubled as much (but then again, you could just keep Mathis as a Sniper and just use him for that). Vyland's lategame >>> Matthis but it's tough to get him there. Matthis' earlygame >>> Vyland but he's pretty much static in terms of statistics.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Levin

[grandjackal]

What makes Rickard so bad? He's basically a later Julian that's a bit worse statistically, isn't he? (And it's not like Julian is a powerhouse anyway) He can do all the thievery that Julian does, and if you lose Julian for any reason he's your thief. He obviously isn't as good as Julian but I can't see why there's a gap of almost two tiers separating them.

Thieves are already redundant with how many free keys teh game throws at you. Keys aren't expensive either. Rickard is a worse Julian. Marth can do half his job by himself anyways. Recruiting him means the team is missing juicy thief experience. Recruiting him also slows down Julian's job in that chapter.

A lot gets in his way...

To Levin: Very well then. Makes sense to me. Couldn't dream of giving Vyland a javelin, considering no one in Hardin's group even has a javelin. XD

But still, Vyland is still in low, or returning to bottom? I mean, he does have a time of good...

Edited March 5, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Florete]

Thieves are already redundant with how many free keys teh game throws at you. Keys aren't expensive either.

Marth can do half his job by himself anyways.

Then why is Julian as high as he is?

Rickard is a worse Julian.

I mentioned that.

Recruiting him means the team is missing juicy thief experience. Recruiting him also slows down Julian's job in that chapter.

How does it slow Julian? With all the enemy thieves I imagine Julian isn't doing much, if anything, in that chapter anyway, and it's not as if we're limited on turns either. And I think we can afford to lose the experience of one enemy....

[grandjackal]

Then why is Julian as high as he is?

I mentioned that.

How does it slow Julian? With all the enemy thieves I imagine Julian isn't doing much, if anything, in that chapter anyway, and it's not as if we're limited on turns either. And I think we can afford to lose the experience of one enemy....

Point 1. Hell if I know.

Point 2. Yes you did, but he's a LOT worse, it must be stressed.

Point 3. Step 1. Open cage. Step 2. Julian talks to the putz while pulling him away from chests. = Ricardo recruited.

Step 1. Open cage and have someone kill Rickard for exp so next turn Julian can immediately just go for chests. Chapter goes by faster as we aren't lagging to get one chest. Yes, it's very indifferent, but I'm obsessive to even minor detail...

[Tino]

Interrupting your discussion, I've got some arguments against the Chapter 2 list. I've only covered Top and High tier so far, though.

h4x:

Jagen

Shiida

Riff

Ogma

High:

Abel

Barst

Cain

Mid:

Castor

Marth

Daros

Bord

Cord

Low:

Gordin

Draug

Obviously, Jeigan is the best unit. I can't argue about that.

Then, for Riff vs. Sheeda...

1/0 Riff: heals 9 HP, 6 AS ,, 16 HP, 3 Def, 7 Avo

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Riff is getting one-rounded by everything but the Cavaliers, but in return he comes with an invaluable ability, namely the ability to heal. At this point, he's the only one who can heal other units, even though it's only 9 HP per heal. Sheeda takes 11-14 damage (dependent on whether the Pirates have A axes or not), so two attacks kill her very easily as well, and there are also those nasty Hunters who one-round her with ease. And then her offense is pretty crappy as well. She can't really use her Wing Spear much because she'll eat such a strong counter, and with a Javelin she isn't doubling and therefore dealing pretty pitiful damage (6-7 against Pirates, 4 (wtf?) against Cavaliers, and she won't be attacking Hunters due to the critical counter that she'll eat). So overall, I think I value Riff's healing more than Sheeda's fighting.

Then there's also Oguma, who is pretty awesome.

4/0 Oguma: 11 Atk, 12 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 13 Avo (Iron Sword)

4/0 Oguma: 14 Atk, 10 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Sword)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Oguma is deals more damage if neither double, Sheeda deals -slightly- more damage if both double, and they'll very rarely both double, because Sheeda won't be using her Wing Spear much due to her durability (and Iron Lance makes her damage output incredibly fail (5-6 damage against Pirates, 3 damage against Cavaliers, 7 damage against Hunters, and epic wtf at her damage against Cavaliers, by the way). So she'll often be using her Javelin, with which she is dealing one more damage than she would with an Iron Lance, which also means that she won't be attacking Hunters anymore. Also, Oguma is a bit more durable. He has a slightly higher chance to dodge Pirate attacks, gets three-rounded instead of one-rounded by Hunters, and fares pretty equal against Cavaliers (though, Oguma can take a Cavalier and Hunter hit, which is pretty win at the moment). Overall, I'd say Oguma is better than Sheeda, even though he lacks a 2 range option.

Then for Oguma vs. Riff, I think Oguma is a tiny bit better than Riff, because he actually has a pretty good durability lead and actually does have pretty good offense (unlike Sheeda).

Abel might also be better than Sheeda.

2/0 Abel: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 9 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Abel: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Better durability for sure. He has a 20% chance to get four-rounded by Hunters, and though that admittedly is quite a tiny chance, that chance does exist and makes him a pretty valuable unit against Hunters, with their annoying 2 range and good AS (though Abel doesn't get doubled if the Hunter has 10 AS, or if the Hunter has 11 AS and Abel uses an Iron Sword/Lance).Then Abel also has a 20% chance to get three-rounded by Cavaliers. Overall, Abel's durability is a lot better than Sheeda's, just as with Oguma vs. Sheeda. And then Abel's offense is clearly better because he can put it to use more often, and because he has a higher damage output overall.

Then I'd say Oguma is better than Abel due to doubling and practically equal durability, so there needs to be no switching between them, I'd say.

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Barts, with Steel, deals 16 damage to a pirate in one single blow. Sheeda, when she doubles with her Wing Spear, deals 14-16 damage, and then she likely won't even be using the Wing Spear against them. Offensively, Sheeda is a massive failure compared to Barts. Perhaps he has some trouble hitting with the Hand Axe, but then again, Sheeda suffers from WTD most of the time, isn't going to be used against Hunters, and takes heavy damage from Cavaliers (so either she takes attacks, takes huge damage, kills, and gets killed the next enemy phase, or she uses a Javelin, deals pitiful damage, and doesn't die. Fail anyway. Barts on the other hand, doesn't fail as much. In fact, he's doing incredibly well here, two-rounding Pirates and Hunters, and leaving Cavaliers with 4 HP after two rounds, allowing anyone to get an easy kill. I don't know how Sheeda is ever beating that.

Barts vs. Abel?

2/0 Abel: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 9 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Abel: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

Easy victory for Barts, I'd say. Clearly superior offensive parameters, and practically equal defensive parameters. Cavaliers two-round both of them, Hunters three-round both of them, and Pirates two-round both of them. Both can survive a Cavalier and Hunter hit. Barts wins.

I'm giving Barts the victory in Barts vs. Riff as well. Granted, Riff's healing is invaluable, but I say the same of Barts's huge-ass offense. His durability is also pretty decent, while Riff usually gets one-rounded.

Barts vs. Oguma is probably very interesting.

4/0 Oguma: 11 Atk, 12 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 13 Avo (Iron Sword)

4/0 Oguma: 14 Atk, 10 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Sword)

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

So basically, it's lots of Atk vs. doubling some of the pirates. If Oguma doubles, he's two-rounding, just like Barts is. Plus, Barts has a 2 range option, which is something Oguma lacks. So I'm going to say that Barts is better than Oguma as well. Then, for epic lolz, I'm going to compare him to Jeigan as well.

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

?/1 Jeigan: 20 Atk, 8 AS ,, 22 HP, 9 Def, 8 Avo (Silver Lance)

?/1 Jeigan: 14 Atk, 8 AS ,, 22 HP, 9 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

Barts is actually pretty damn close. They deal equal damage overall (though Jeigan deals one less damage if the Pirates have A axes) with Steel and Silver. Pirates two-round Jeigan if they have A axes no matter what, and two-round him if they have 20 Atk. Barts gets two-rounded as well. Hunters four-round Jeigan and three-round Barts. Cavaliers two-round Barts and three-round Jeigan. Now, I'm not trying to prove Barts superior to Jeigan, but I just want to show how fucking h4x he is in this chapter. I feel you've massively underrated him.

[Lord Raven]

Pirates always have A axes don't they?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I believe all enemies have A ranks in the weapon levels of the ones they can/are using.

[Tino]

Allright then. I never really paid attention to those, and I was too lazy to check it myself, to be honest. Thanks for that confirmation. That probably has some impact on the parts where I was talking about weapon levels.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I noticed this while reading:

Sheeda takes 11-14 damage (dependent on whether the Pirates have A axes or not)

Hmm? A rank just means a 15 hit bonus. No damage bonus at all.

Odd how Barst >>> Abel was overlooked btw.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Levin

[Tino]

This says otherwise

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This says otherwise

I look there and weapon rank bonuses for Axes says +15 Accuracy with A rank.

[Lord Raven]

Except it does +1 damage if you're winning WTA at an A rank, no matter what the weapon.

Weapon triangle bonus:

* +1 if weapon is good against enemy's weapon (weapon rank is A)
* -1 if weapon is bad against enemy's weapon (enemy's weapon rank is A)

Edited March 5, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Tino]

Exactly, and whoop-di-freeky-doo, Pirates have WTA against Sheeda.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Except it does +1 damage if you're winning WTA at an A rank, no matter what the weapon.

I know the WTA bonus but that +1 damage has nothing to do with weapon rank which is why I was curious as to why he brought that up.

EDIT: Hmm overlooked that. Odd, I thought the WTA existed regardless of the weapon rank. Better check this.

EDIT 2: Tested, it's true. My bad.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Levin

[Lord Raven]

It has everything to do with weapon rank. Did you not pay attention to any part of my previous post, or the WTA portion of the page Tino linked?

EDIT: levin made a ninja edit.. hurr

Edited March 5, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Tino]

I know the WTA bonus but that +1 damage has nothing to do with weapon rank which is why I was curious as to why he brought that up.

Ah. I was just saying how much damages she would take from one hit, and that would be either 13 or 14 at most, and that was dependent on the weapon level of the Pirates, but apparantly, it's 14. It doesn't really mean anything, though, since she gets two-rounded easily, though.

[Rodykitty]

On the subject of Julian, people forget that Thieves have stat averages too, and I find them comparable to Navarre.

But looking at their averages again, I don't know what I was thinking keeping Julian > Navarre, but even still I don't think Julian's utility is useless since he can be looting treasure while Marth is working towards getting to the throne or unlocking doors for other units so they won't waste their action that turn.

[grandjackal]

On the subject of Julian, people forget that Thieves have stat averages too, and I find them comparable to Navarre.

But looking at their averages again, I don't know what I was thinking keeping Julian > Navarre, but even still I don't think Julian's utility is useless since he can be looting treasure while Marth is working towards getting to the throne or unlocking doors for other units so they won't waste their action that turn.

The game pretty much throws keys at you, and buying more isn't a problem. a cav with keys can do his job better.

Didn't notice how similar he was to Navarre, outside of HP and obvious speed....But Navarre becomes similar over the levels up to 20-20, Julian just to 30...Julian needs no master seal either just to be similar.